Is 9mm really that bad for bear defense?
Posted by Link_the_Irish@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 226 comments
Genuine question, would 20 rounds of +p flat nose solid projectiles not make even brown bears go away lol?
Weaponized---Autism@reddit
A longstanding concept in swordcraft is to use the minimum amount of force sufficient to swipe, stab, or parry, because if you use all your momentum and miss, the other guy can quickly swipe you before you recover. This goes for recoil as well.
HummingBored1@reddit
I think hard cast rounds are best for bear. As I understand it Penetration is more important than expansion just to make sure you get passed the fur and fat. 9mm buffalo bore would do the job probably.
GrammarNaughtZ@reddit
past
HummingBored1@reddit
Thanks! Everyday's a school day.
Beagalltach@reddit
No.
Passed is past tense of to pass. Past only refers to the time before the present.
GrammarNaughtZ@reddit
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/past
Beagalltach@reddit
I stand corrected. Looks like it is being used as an adverb here and is therefore proper.
Pooping_brewer@reddit
Just curious because I don't know, but would FMJ ammunition not be also deep penetrating?
retromullet@reddit
In a thin skinned target, yes, but in thick skin targets you want something with both more velocity as well as a harder projectile. Normal ball in a thick skinned animal will tend to deform and yaw due to the soft lead and round nose. Thats why you see most animal defense ammo as hard cast with a flat nose, it keeps it from deforming and the flat nose keeps the bullet on a straight path through the animal.
Pooping_brewer@reddit
Nice! Thanks for explaining it to me
PonyThug@reddit
I carry extreme penetrators +p. Videos of them going through 32” of ballistic gel plus multiple gallon jugs of water.
That-Beagle@reddit
I have a box of extreme defenders, I would not want to be on the receiving end of them.
FartBoxActual@reddit
Are those the ones that look like phillips head screw drivers?
PonyThug@reddit
Yes. Very blunt stubby Philips heads. 115gr. https://underwoodammo.com/9mm-luger-p-115-grain-xtreme-penetrator/
And then the 68gr moving at 1800fps. https://underwoodammo.com/9mm-luger-p-65-grain-xtreme-defender/
igotbanneddd@reddit
Yup
wheredowehidethebody@reddit
Solids probably work well. Fort Scott makes solid copper ones that penetrate far apparently
cyclorphan@reddit
I would imagine Underwood Xtreme Penetrators to be rather effective as well. Also solid copper, designed to defeat barriers.
RememberCitadel@reddit
I am pretty sure they all use the same actual bullet. I have a couple of different brands and they are all basically identical.
Since they are just a chunk of copper, there isn't exactly a whole lot that could be different internally.
john_connor_T1000@reddit
The bone is the real issue. Very strong and dense
GrammarNaughtZ@reddit
>passed
past
RedFox9906@reddit
Hasn’t worked that great in the field but if you want to risk your life because you love the 9MM that much good luck. I genuinely mean that.
SetNo8186@reddit
If druthers were allowed, 12ga slugs from a Mossberg Shockwave would be my preference. Not to hard to carry if you were fly fishing, too.
I hear tungsten carbide slugs are getting some attention.
SledDogGuy@reddit
If I was to make a recommendation, I would say no. All else being equal, bigger is better. If dealing with black bears only, I would upgrade to a .357 mag, a .45 auto, or a 10mm. If dealing with brown/grizzly bear, I carry nothing less than a stout loaded .44 magnum, I personally carry a .460 S&W. If all I had was 9mm, I would carry a good, hardcast lead bullet. Probably something by underwood or buffalo bore.
Francois_the_Droll@reddit
A .22 short killed one of the biggest grizzly bears ever. Shot placement is king. I believe buffalo bore also has accounts of their 9mm ammo killing bears.
Hoplophilia@reddit
Not enough data, thankfully. Problem with a grizzly attack is, they can cover a lot of ground and get two or three lethal swipes at you while you're doing a great job of killing them.
The only thing I imagine wouldn't make me wish I'd brought something bigger in the midst of a grizzly attack is a trusted 12ga auto that fits me like a limb, with hard cast slugs. That being the case the sidearm I choose "instead" would be the hardest hitting one I have. If that's 9mm +P 147gr hardcast, so be it. We don't have brown bears in my neck so I'm pretty satisfied roaming with my 9.
Special_EDy@reddit
A good excuse to buy another gun bigger than 9mm.
Hoplophilia@reddit
I mean, may your fortune allow. My theoretical "grizzly country" pistol is the .460R FNX, but I've taken it hiking and camping a few times... it's a lot on your hip if you don't need it.
Again, not much data, but I wonder how 5.7 hardcast would fare against a mad brownie. It's largely about getting through the front of the skull and making a mess, not particularly trying to break the animal down. Maybe sectional density far outweighs frontal diameter. To my point, a bullet of a given SD will need less energy to poke through if it has a smaller frontal area. There's a bullet "too small" for making a proper mess on the other side, but there's a bullet "too big" for solid follow-up shots given how much energy it takes to get it through the wall.
RacerXrated@reddit
5.7 is going to have a hard time penetrating, even with a well constructed bullet.
Special_EDy@reddit
I have a Glock 20 in 460 Rowland and another in 40 Super. My 44 Magnum Deagle would be another top choice.
Typically, you want mass, not velocity. It needs to be able to smash through bones, light bullets moving at high velocity will change directions and bounce off things instead of punching through. Like, I also have a 460 Weatherby Magnum rifle, AFAIK its the most powerful production rifle in the world other than 50BMG, its made for killing whales and African Big 5. It just has a 400 to 600 grain slug moving at ~2500ft/s. Like most elephant guns, it's a really heavy bullet traveling relatively slowly, but packing up to 9000ft/lbs of energy.
Gzoe467@reddit
Wish my grandfather still had his 4 bore :(
Feisty_Home_8790@reddit
Literally
Neko_Boi_Core@reddit
10mm auto time \^w^
AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit
A lot of people don't realize how fast and how stealthy a 400-800lb bear can be. They can charge at 30-35mph.
helicalboring@reddit
It’s usually how people end up between mama bear and the cubs. They don’t make a ton of noise when they’re just grazing some blueberries.
And then you’re just in for the worst/potentially the last day of your life.
Matygos@reddit
We could have scientific data, late 1800s might still have given us enough info all what is needed is some historian to go theough all of it and collect the info
816blackout@reddit
thankfully for me just the occasional coyote or bobcat. if you’re deep enough you’ll eventually find brown bears but not where I’m at. I’m more worried about the people 😅
Hoplophilia@reddit
People and mountain lions for me, in that order. 9mm is just great for the first, and I won't taste any worse with a .500 S&W at my side when a cat drops on me.
816blackout@reddit
Haha that’s badass man, couldn’t think of a better sidearm to take down a big cat. Or a grizzly bear.
RacerXrated@reddit
Hard cast or FMJ should penetrate adequately.
buckandroll@reddit
NATO 124 grain fmj is spicy, 1200 fps. Great penetration and fantastic feeding with it's slippery round brass round. It will dig deep.
SteveHamlin1@reddit
Hardcast, not FMJ.
moebiusgrip@reddit
Question,
I know folks like hollows for defense, but would FMJ be better in the winter/fall
Coats and sweaters and jackets & what not.
Is a hollow still effective if it has to get through a bunch of layers of heavy fabric?
Is that a thing?
SteveHamlin1@reddit
Reasonable winter clothing might clog a hollow-point so it doesn't expand, but if so, then it winds up being similar to a FMJ. It does not become significantly worse than a FMJ.
There are barrier-resistant hollow points - look at the "Flex Tip" bullet in Hornady's Critical Defense and Critical Duty lines.
Another good option for penetration-through-clothing with better-than-FMJ terminal effect are non-expanding solid-copper projectiles (often fluted, thus nicknamed the "flying screwdriver") like the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defense Technology bullet in Underwood XD ammo. Those have best-in-class terminal effects - as good or even better than the best hollow-points. Some guns have issues feeding them, however. (Note: this category does NOT encompass light-for-caliber extreme-expansion copper rounds like the G2 RIP - those are gimmicks).
ChickenFeats@reddit
Heavy clothing could potentially prevent the hollow point from expanding properly but it ain't gonna stop it.
Sneekibreeki47@reddit
That's what I'm saying.
IrradiatedLimes_@reddit
Who taught a money fan cat how to shoot?
Libido_Max@reddit
If you watch the cops arresting criminals they mag dump and the person still walking and running like nothing happen for a minute or two till they go down.
Straight_Variation_3@reddit
Like 50 percent of the time, the crook gets hit with less than a full magazine, flops down, and promptly loses consciousness and/or dies.
I've seen lots of mag dumps on body camera, but I've never seen a mag dump of decent hits where the guy continued walking or running, unaffected, for even one minute.
13-17 rounds through the spine, brain case, heart, lungs, kindeys, speen, liver, aorta, or other major blood vessel, can't be ignored for "a minute or two." Fackler estimated that a severed aorta would result in loss of consciousness within 4 seconds for a human.
Illustrious-Fact1014@reddit
So you think the hit percentage from someone being attacked by a charging bear is gonna be better than a cops in a 2 legged adversary?
Straight_Variation_3@reddit
Did you actually read my comment? It was entirely about handgun terminal performance, on humans, on camera. There was nothing whatsoever about bear vs human hit percentage.
Just like with human on human encounters, the hits would very widely based on shooter skill, distance to tar and level of alertness, from 0 hits to 15+ hits.
If you insist on speculation, a grizzly on all fours, facing you, is approximately 4 feet wide and 4.5 feet tall (not including head.) This would present a target area of approximately 216 square inches.
An average American man is 5.75 feet tall (including the head) and 1.5 feet wide, for an approximate target area of 103.5 inches.
Obviously, these are pretty rough, since they don't account the legs presenting far less area on both animals.
But even so, the grizzly provides, solidly, a target of twice the size.
How different are the size of vital organs? I have no clue, but you did ask for just hit percentage.
The average man can achieve a sprinting top speed of 20 MPH. The average Yellowstone grizzly can achieve a sprinting top speed of 30mph.
So, the grizzly is 50% faster, but is a 100% larger target.
Which results in a larger hit percentage? That's pure guesswork, but given a shooter that is able to draw before being killed, the grizzly should easier to hit.
It is double the target size, and the target gets closer and easier to hit, 50% faster.
No data whatsover for this point, but humans seem to move laterally faster, and make more unpredictable movements.
Humans also sometimes have guns, themselves, which makes them dangerous from very far away.
Bears also don't appear to be able to make purposeful use of cover, or concealment.
Bears also can't hop in a car and run you over at 80 MPH.
Bears also can't walk up to you and talk with you for 45 minutes, before they attack suddenly.
Overall, I'd give the higher hit percentage to the bear-shooter if I was betting money on it.
Illustrious-Fact1014@reddit
Did you consider the human factor, or the fact that most cops not all but most train for the confrontation, whereas most of the guys out hiking in the woods do not, so the muscle memory isn’t there. Look into bear shootings and see how many shots they actually get off on the bear before it is on top of them. Have you ever made a contact shot with a semi automatic pistols? when you drive the firearm into the bear you will most likely take the weapon out of battery therefore disabling it.
Carry your 9mm in grizzly country. It’s America do you. Me I will carry a .454 revolver but only because they don’t make a .455. LOL
Straight_Variation_3@reddit
No, because the human factor ranges from so incompetent they shoot themselves, to competition shooting champions. That goes for both cops and woods walkers.
Yes. It works pretty good with a WML. It works without one, too, if you don't treat the barrel like a knife.
This is entirely dependent on shooter skill, awareness, and distance. The most recent one on Reddit was a grizzly charge stopped by two guys with 10mm glocks, who fired 16 shots total. The bear didn't survive long enough to get on top of them.
Where I live right now, I only encounter grizzly at the zoo. If I lived somewhere where I was more likely to meet an aggressive bear than an aggressive crackhead, I would probably go 10mm.
.454 gets you .30-30 energy, and an excellent combination of penetration and bullet diameter. If you shoot it well, it's a pretty good cartridge for the purpose.
They do make a .500, though 😉
Feeling_Title_9287@reddit
I would rather have a .45 as a minimum
YaKillinMeSmallz@reddit
Lucky Gunner has a whole article about this topic, summarized from this data from Ammo Land.
Roland--Tembo@reddit
I've always liked this article from Outdoor Life about two former Green Berets defending themselves vs. a bear with 10mm Glocks
alittletrolly@reddit
I would think it would take more than just two green berets to take down a bear dual welding 10mm glocks
dudertheduder@reddit
IDK how the bear would get a proper modern thumbs forward grip but I'm an idiot
Okietwist3r@reddit
“Well trained” bear..
Scuba-Seeker@reddit
The bear may have been using pistol braces for support but he should be careful with the current uncertainty around the legality of them becoming sbr’s or even potentially awb‘s
antariusz@reddit
Nothing wrong with a teacup.
But I might be a bear.
YellowDiaper@reddit
Ahh the old reddit r/switcheroo
foolproofphilosophy@reddit
Their paws are enormous, I wonder how the bear gripped them. Even if their claws can fit inside the trigger guard they’d still be enveloping the entire pistol. But I guess that if you’re up against Green Berets shooting through your paws wouldn’t be your main concern.
73-68-70-78-62-73-73@reddit
Use the right ammo for the job. Two kinds of JHP, and an unknown quantity of hard cast. I'd be interested to find out if they could have dropped the bear faster if they'd both been running 100% +P LFN hard cast, and which of their rounds had a greater contribution to fatality.
antariusz@reddit
11 bear attacks stopped by 22.
If 22 can work, 9mm is plenty.
MadMints@reddit
This is the article I always think about when people talk about firearms for bear defense. Bears in the wild are not meth'd out rage machines, theyre animals, and most animals very much do not like getting shot by anything.
CarsGunsBeer@reddit
It's documented to work but when it comes to getting mauled alive by a bear I'd want the best I'd feel better with a Glock 40 or a .458 SOCOM AR.
yourboibigsmoi808@reddit
.22lr Actually ☝️🤓
Oldguy_1959@reddit
Yes, and for the simple reason that the bullets are not designed to penetrate a bears hide far enough to be fatal, or at least quick enough to stop them from killing you.
My minimum is a 44 special or the 41 mag, the first handgun I picked up for a sidearm in bear country. Both pack hard cast flat nose bullets driven as fast as possible.
somen0nfactor@reddit
A miss is a miss no matter the caliber.
Sudden_Publics@reddit
Depends on where you hit ‘em.
somen0nfactor@reddit
There is no replacement for shot placement.
TheShank90@reddit
10mm would like a word
C_IsForCookie@reddit
Unless you own a tank 😎
YeetedSloth@reddit
Ehh, I think I could take a shell to my left pinky toe and have a very uncomfortable rest of my life. Anywhere else and I’m done for
governingmonk@reddit
It's called Grizzly. You are not worrying about shot placement when a 900lbs momma bear is coming at you. Lol get in the woods my friend. You have no idea.
ace_of_william@reddit
This could be said about literally any life or death engagement with a firearm. Yeah you’re not sitting there looking at leaves for crosswind, pulling out your dope card etc. Never the less you should make an effort to exercise basic marksmanship, ESPECIALLY when your life is in danger. the first round hitting its target is irreplaceable by ANY tactic or method. The world’s best hard cast grizzly ammo won’t do shit if you miss or hit a non critical flesh wound.
Practice more on not panicking and throwing away all your skills during stress you’ll have no one but yourself to thank for that.
governingmonk@reddit
In my mind trying to kill a Grizzly with a 9mm is the same as trying to kill a white tail with a 22lr. Sure it can be done but you are more than likely not going to stop the attack or lost of meat in the case of the whitetail.
wedge754@reddit
https://www.wideopenspaces.com/alaska-man-kills-charging-brown-bear-with-a-9mm-pistol/
WellHelloPhriend@reddit
Aim for the dong....
Sauerkrautkid7@reddit
When it’s running at you, the dong is hidden in the back
mtommygunz@reddit
That’s why you lay down real sudden like as it charges you and shoot the dong as it runs over you.
Sauerkrautkid7@reddit
I never thought of that
mtommygunz@reddit
Gotta John Wick flick that finger
WellHelloPhriend@reddit
That's when you challenge it to a game of swords!
C_IsForCookie@reddit
Butters, you don’t shoot bears in the dick.
Unhappy-Hyena-4520@reddit
Facts. If you dong a koala bear with a 9mm it’s likely to stop.
Exciting-Yak-3058@reddit
Ok, best comment ive read today award, goes to you lol. That shit had me laughing my ass off!
-TrafficConeRescue-@reddit
That’s still shot placement……………………..
Ok_Crab_3522@reddit
There are next to no places you can shoot a brown bear with puny 9mm that will stop them from mauling you to death. Shit doesn’t even have the power to reliably get through a bear’s skull on a head shot.
Kurtac@reddit
https://www.ammoland.com/2017/06/bella-twin-the-22-used-to-take-the-1953-world-record-grizzly-and-more/
Gzoe467@reddit
Well ill be damned thats impressive and she got lucky. Theres more storys of people being killed by a grizzly with an under powered gun than the other way around!
thatG_evanP@reddit
What guns were the grizzlies using?
Gzoe467@reddit
Big pink dildos
Gzoe467@reddit
Ive seen a cat shot with a .22 in the skull and it eventually healed and just pushed the slug out now imagine that being a grizzly bear. It was my grandfather cat we think the neighbor shot btw.
theoriginalmofocus@reddit
Seen people try to put cows down with shots to the head. They just keep getting back up if they even go down.
Gzoe467@reddit
Legit one of the craziest things ive seen i was like 6 he was patting the cat and thought it was a tick then o saw hes face turn read and he was not happy then i realized why half a .22 was sticking put of the cats head.
hbomb57@reddit
This is the second thread I've come across where people think bears are made of adamantium. Or at least think every part of the bear is level IV ceramic plates. The last thread was .223 couldn't go through a small black bear.
Ok_Crab_3522@reddit
Bears aren't made of adamantium. But they have super thick skulls and are huge animals. Most people carry defensive loads in their guns and those are going to open up and likely not penetrate deep enough to incapacitate the bear. Unless you shoot the thing in the eye or something, chances are you are getting mauled whether or not the thing bleeds to death 5 mins later.
Bear defense is a lot different than, say, bear hunting. One implies that you're ambushing an animal that is just standing there a good distance away and the other implies the animal ambushed you and is probably charging you up close. That's why hunting guides generally carry a larger caliber than the people they lead... because their gun isn't just to hunt with... it's for defense.
hbomb57@reddit
And that's fair. The 9mm will hurt and probably kill the bear, but mid charge, unless it incompacitates it the bear will probably hurt you too. 9mm could deflect off the upper skull, could go straight through. 500 sw magnum could barely skip of the shoulder blade or could drop it with 1 shot. I just more meant people acting like 9mm and .223 will bounce off a bears fur are crazy. But an adrenaline filled bear in a charge can ignore a lot. I mean I've put .270 through a deers heart and lungs, the bastard still ran 100 yards before it's brain realized there was no blood and it toppled over.
But here's the real kicker, bear spray is usually proven the most effective at stopping a charging bear. A bear that can't see, smell, or breath gives up the fight quicker than a wounded one.
Ok_Crab_3522@reddit
Ya, bear spray does have a better statistical success rate than firearms. I do, however, sometimes wonder if the numbers are skewed because there's a statistically relevant number of those firearms users thinking they can just pack their glock 19 as bear defense.
LearnedMonkey55@reddit
https://www.americanhunter.org/content/alaska-outfitter-defends-fishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/
g1Razor15@reddit
Exactly
WastingTime1111@reddit
What birdshot does to a bear:
https://youtu.be/wj7Z5oMWuIU?si=cJfqgWVy3ZOPwLx9
Sneku_69@reddit
The video litterally says he intentionally aimed off center to not kill it. Had he aimed right in her face she wouldn't have gotten up to fast.
WastingTime1111@reddit
Yeaaaaah I saw that. I don’t want to say that he was lying to prevent backlash from the Canadian bear lovers community, but he probably was lying to prevent backlash from the Canadian bear lovers community.
That seems like a pretty big stretch to me. Put yourself in his shoes. You are backpedaling. You got one shot. Mama bear is charging you to rip your face off. Are you going to consciously think to yourself, “Even though her head is bobbing up and down and all over the place, she charging me, I have one shot, and I am going to die an agonizing death if I miss…… I am going to try to wait for an opportunity to hit her in the shoulder so I don’t kill her.”
NO! No one in their right mind would ever think that in that moment. That guy was trying to hit whatever he could in that moment.
aliendepict@reddit
Excellent stagger, now he just needs to jump pack to higher grand and call in an orbital 380 or a 500kg from the eagle.
-spartacus-@reddit
Let's be honest, the call in would bounce back at us and we know the Eagle pilot never misses.
SteveHamlin1@reddit
How do you know it was birdshot vs. buckshot?
WastingTime1111@reddit
There was an article I remember reading at the time about it that said it was birdshot.
ryno7926@reddit
If I'm worried about bears and all I have is bird shot I'm making cutshells
Awrfhyesggrdghkj@reddit
No not really? But honestly there’s a reason so many people in Alaska have 10mm handguns
StrongChance4812@reddit
Fn sees that documented instance of the fishing guide in Alaska saving himself and his clients from a charging Kodiak.
Used solid cast 9mm for deep penetration. I believe he used a smith and Wesson semiautomatic and buffalo bore woodsman solid cast +p
dudertheduder@reddit
I thought it was a Glock 19 but I could be misremembering
I think someone quoted a meta-analysis of bear encounters vs caliber size up above this comment. If it's the one I've read before, if people hit the bear then it was an effective deterrent basically regardless of caliber.
StrongChance4812@reddit
Smith and Wesson 3953
https://www.americanhunter.org/content/alaska-outfitter-defends-fishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/
antariusz@reddit
Yep, 11 successful bear defenses with 22.
If .22 and .380 “can” work then 9mm is plenty.
FBOFrontFeedBalls@reddit
If you ask a boomer Fudd they’ll tell you 9mm will bounce right off a bear lol. I can never find it again but there’s a video out there of a lady dropping a moose with one shot from a .380 SIG P238.
pyratemime@reddit
Depends, are you in the Castro or Katmai?
C4Vendetta76@reddit
Buffalo Barnes 90 grain at 1550 fps should to the trick
JustLife299@reddit
You need an attack bear.
ColoradoCoolaide@reddit
Problem with 9mm is that they are traveling so fast. Even the hollow points and hard casts are still traveling super fast. The issue with 9mm was never about " stopping power", it was always about bullet weight and speed. It goes through targets, often even going through vital organs, so fast that the bad guys, or bear, does not even know they're dead. 10 mm has a lot of the same speed, but more mass. .45 acp is slower, but delivers more terminal ballistics upon initial impact due to size and wound channel. The 10 mm especially does this. So it would be really hard for me to trust 9 mm in any situation other than as a last resort.
SomeDude249@reddit
I had people telling me that 30rnds of 5.56 wasn't enough recently.....
skratch000@reddit
Only one way to find out. Let us know if/when you return.
AKoperators210Local@reddit
You can kill a bear with a 22lr if you have long enough to wait for it to die.
Inevitable-Sleep-907@reddit
It's not ideal but not the worse choice either. Better than .45acp not as good as 10mm. I've seen a home security video where a guy dropped a bear that broke into his house with .40S&W 15 hits center mass and bear made it about 5 feet from first shot before dead. Aim for heart/ lungs because it may not penetrate skull
buckandroll@reddit
Here we go again folks...No. 45 makes much deader than 9mm. Quantified by a factor of 45/38.
Inevitable-Sleep-907@reddit
Not when you're talking in terms of bear. Fur, thick skin, heavy fat layer and dense muscle. 45acp lacks penetration combined with low capacity it's probably in the top 3 worse cartridge choices right behind .380 and .38
Illustrious-Fact1014@reddit
Tell me you have no real world experience with ballistics without telling me you have no real world experience with ballistics. 🤦🏻♂️
Inevitable-Sleep-907@reddit
Tell me you were sniffing glue during your elementary school physics lesson without yelling me you're a glue sniffer
Illustrious-Fact1014@reddit
Obviously you are an internet warrior. Good luck in life kid. It seems to me you are gonna need all the luck you get.
Inevitable-Sleep-907@reddit
It's not that hard to comprehend the larger mass traveling at lower velocity is going to have less penetration. It's basic physics but hey don't take my word for it
Since you're incapable of doing your own research here's a quote from someone with way more ballistic expertise than you and I combined "For home defense, a 45 ACP is the better choice as reduced penetration makes it a safer option"
Incase you're interested in learning more facts about 45acp V 9mm article quote came from source: https://ammo.com/comparison/9mm-vs-45
Illustrious-Fact1014@reddit
Sorry just looked at your profile and realized I shouldn’t argue with you. You EDC a “tactical” pen so you are obviously an expert. Sorry I’m just the old dude that is still around in a career that men die young. I hope you grow a set get a man’s job and pass through one of my classes. I can’t wait to meat you. Hell I probably resign myself to sit in back of the tecruits and let you teach for me.
Inevitable-Sleep-907@reddit
Oh no what will I ever do now that I've angered the self described old man to the point he's running through my entire post history with downvotes and snarky comments. I'm glad you haven't blessed me with your great resume that would make me consider self harm as stated in your other comment
P.S. I'm really glad you like my pen. It's wide with good grip making it easy for me to use when I'm wearing gloves at work and need to sign something or take notes
🤡
Illustrious-Fact1014@reddit
Hahaha. Not even the cringy contractors that worked with us ever showed up with those pens.
I tell you what young man. Carry the 9mm into Grizzly country, I pray for your sake you don’t encounter a bear but if you do let us all know how the 9mm worked out for you. Nevermind just leave you initials so we can identify you in the online news story you will unlikely be able to communicate the 9mm’s better penetration unless I buy an Ouija Board to communicate with you. LOL
Illustrious-Fact1014@reddit
If they weren’t a bit out of pay grade I would send you my resume and credentials. I would make them public but you would likely be so ashamed of yourself that you would do self harm and I don’t want any more of that on my conscious. Heavier weight hard cast 45 penetrates much better. There is much more to terminal ballistics but they don’t teach that in Call of Duty. Take from someone who has been there and done that I’m right. Something available to you would be a man need Tim Suddles and his videos on youtube. He owns Buffalo Bore Ammunition. He is a bit of a ballistics expert himself. See what he has to say about it. PS. You are 100% wrong on this one. And the all the people with real world experience and expertise are laughing at you.
SteveHamlin1@reddit
Not better than .45acp +P hardcast.
SovereignDevelopment@reddit
No. Not bad at all.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388
(scroll down)
FabiusBill@reddit
For the love of God, carry bear spray. Apply liberally to bear as needed.
Berniethedog@reddit
Did you see that video of the rabid bear the other day?
ChickenFeats@reddit
Throwing a rock might be something to make a bear go away. Personally, I'll choose to use something known to be effective at killing bears very quickly.
Themurdman@reddit
This thread makes me want to carry a semi automatic shotgun with slugs in the woods
ChickenFeats@reddit
If I felt like I might need to protect myself from a grizzly bear, I would be carrying exactly that. With brenneke black magic slugs.
Gunpowder-@reddit
I fly fish in northern Canada, around quite a bit of brown bears sometimes. We've all got the usual bear spray, poppers and education in avoiding the issue in the first place. But I hear a LOT of guys saying they dont trust anything but 12g slugs or 45/70 because by the time you fire on a bear you cant really rely on pain to change its mind, you just need that thing dead FAST. Ive never experienced it and hope to never have to. I just make a lot of noise and bring friends.
MostlyOkPotato@reddit
Honestly, the bear is probably gonna start running at the first bang. They’re usually pretty skittish.
CLR92@reddit
Depends, do you mean a large gay man or the genus Ursus? Because in either case, its a bad choice
loqi0238@reddit
Think about if it keeps coming at you. Can you Bob and weave while maintaining a target trying to head-on or circle you? If it doesn't drop before you're able to reload, you're just done.
And if you're at the point that you have to reload on a bear, you're done.
As others have mentioned, their bones are thick. Unless you're putting lead through their eyes and into the brain... or penetrating their thick pelt, then skin, then musculature, then pectoral bone, THEN the heart, you're done.
If I had the option, I would never choose a 9mm to go up against a bear. If I had no other option, sure, I'd try it and hope for the best
BigIronOnMyHip45-70@reddit
Penetration rounds maybe, but if those hit bone..not much more you can do. Bears bones are thicker and harder to break, so if a 9mm can ricochet off a pitbulls skull or even a humans, what do you think will happen if it hits a bear's bone? Minimum imo is 10mm.
TheBassStalker@reddit
The biggest thing about bear attacks is they usually happen really quick. Having spent time in bear country and watching how fast one of these things can cover territory I think many people don't understand how quickly one can be on you. 20 shots sounds nice but if it goes from seemingly safe to mauling you in seconds, how many rounds are you getting off and what is your hit percentage?
You can have a bear hit lethally with a rifle and they can still cover a lot of territory and tear you apart with one swat. Many Alaskan guides used to say "a dead bear will kill you" referring to what can happen in their last few seconds of life. I'd rather have a 9mm than my fists, but I'd much rather have a 10mm loaded with 220g hard cast bullets as a minimum and realistically something in the .44 Magnum range or larger. Last time I was fishing in the areas that they could potentially be a threat several had Marlin 1895s with Hard Cast loads.
Just black bears here and I still carry a 10mm with me. We have hogs south and again, the 10mm is what I carry there as well.
Shoota556@reddit
I’d use a rifle for bear instead.
ArceusTwoFour_Zero@reddit
Better than bear spray, hopefully.
xj98jeep@reddit
Spray is much, much better than guns and the statistics back that up pretty heavily. These convos keep coming up because we like guns, and when you have a hammer everything is a nail. I live/work/hike/camp in legit bear country and bear spray is almost all I use. It's lighter and works way better, so a gun is not really the tool for this job anymore.
likeaboz2002@reddit
My only thing with spray is what the fuck do you do when you’re inside a tent? I’ve never really found much info on this, but getting woken up by a hungry grizzly and then trying to bear spray it from inside the tent sounds roughly impossible.
xj98jeep@reddit
You think you'll fare any better getting woken up and just blasting out of the tent hoping for the best?
That also just doesn't really happen, statistically. You cook, eat, and brush your teeth 100 yards away from your tent, change clothes and hang everything scented 100 yards away from that, then sleep 100 yards away from both of those so there's nothing scented in your tent.
If you're in turbo-mega-ultra predator territory you'll have a battery powered electric fence, and I can confirm those work well.
MentalTelephone5080@reddit
Just gotta watch out for bears that like spicy food.
Grandemestizo@reddit
Bear spray is extremely effective.
gokartninja@reddit
Statistically, no, the spray has a higher success rate
CephalonPhathom@reddit
We can argue all day long about semantics but if it comes down to it if I move into an area where bears are known to roam then im buying something that'll protect me more efficiently. Unless you've been trained/are currently training to shoot under distress and are used to it then for the average firearm owner those 9mm shots are going to places that wont slow down a bear. (Which just furthers proves that you should continuously train with your firearms. One and done isn't enough.)
Advanced961@reddit
Try it, report back…
Just please don’t report back if you crossed! I’m insomniac as is, I don’t need another reason to stay awake
Ok-Association3255@reddit
A record grizzly bear was killed in 1959 by a woman using a single shot .22 long
Naugle17@reddit
Best bear defense is a bear offense
Or a .444
twangdinger@reddit
9mm MIGHT be adequate but I would not bet my life on it vs. a grizzly bear. Maybe OK for black bears (which are generally easily deterred), but there are many cases where heftier pistol cartridges than 9mm have landed on target and failed to stop a charging griz. 10mm auto out of striker fire have the best track record of handgun cartridges in documented events of defense vs. attacking brown bears.
Fearless_Weather_206@reddit
Doesn’t the skull and skeleton of a bear deflect ammo well
axethebarbarian@reddit
Depends on the bear. Black bears probably fine, but wouldn't want to shoot a grizzly with one.
MonsterMuppet19@reddit
Me personally, wouldn't take that chance. I want something with a little more "oomph" behind it. 9mm may work, but I don't wanna chance it. Depending on my situation, I'm carrying my .40 with some +P very spicy boi's or my 10mm.
Blank_unicorn@reddit
Hmmmmmm. No. Crackhead or methboi sure. I'm not going to take the chance. Bigger is always better. Just ask my ex.
Additional-Chain-272@reddit
9mm for the hoods 10mm for the woods
jerkymurky@reddit
I mean shot placement is paramont but when a 800 pound bear is charging you at 30 miles per hour shot placement goes out the fucking window and you mag dump. if i im in that kind of situation i dont want a 9mm, i want the biggest fucking thing i can shoot at a bear with as large of a magazine as it can possibly have. But if it has to be 9mm i want +p extreme penetrator projectiles and i want at least a 15 round mag but i wouldn't be mad if it was 17, 20, or 32.
The major problem with 9mm in this situation is even if you have delivered a leathal blow to the bear, unless youve cut off its central nervous system its still going to run you down and probably kill you. Considering that, if you live in brown bear country, i would say yes, 9mm is sub optimal for bear defense. Its great for alot of things, but not for brown bears (black bears on the other hand itll probably handle. The fuckers are skittish enough they will probably just run from you unless its hungry or its young is near.
v-infernalis@reddit
Now do full+auto 22LR with a 100rd drum mag
This whole debate is silly
Carry whatever you're faster/deadlier with
hobodemon@reddit
9mm is pretty versatile. Plenty of loads that'd be good enough to get something dead before it gets to you. And most of those would be terrible against a different kind of threat. Lot of context to be aware of.
Much simpler to just get a 22 Bobcat, and shoot your friend's knee.
Actual-Log465@reddit
Shot placement matters .
crzygunguy@reddit
What do you mean by “bad”? It is a hell of a lot better than just a toothpick and jujitsu. But if you could choose between 9mm and a 454, 460, 44mag or 500, on would think 9mm might not be the best choice
theflyingspaghetti@reddit
Not as good as bear spray.
Illustrious-Fact1014@reddit
I’m afraid there are a lot of variables there,like wind direction, and the bears rage. You know every cop that gets shot with hotter shit than bear spray proves has to prove that with determination they can fight their way through being sprayed. Also before you trust in your stats you might any to vet your statisticians.
annonimity2@reddit
Genuine question, does bear spray work on mountain lions and other 4 legged threats?
Coders_REACT_To_JS@reddit
I believe I read bear spray is more effective based on reported incidents. If it’s a real concern probably best to have both.
Alpha__OmeGuh@reddit
20 in the head uhh unless its got adamantium skull 💀
Illustrious-Fact1014@reddit
I think if you research it rarely does a shooter get off 3 rounds on a charging bear before it is on them and even more rare do they get three good hits on target your fast shooting flat range isn’t realistic in a battle for your life.
DangerousDem@reddit
17 mosquito bites are still just 17 mosquito bites. Nice shooting though.
joelfarris@reddit
Are the +p rounds more like those hugeass Alaskan mosquitoes, though?
Driven2b@reddit
My opinion FWIW.
The best bear defense would be a Nemo Arms 300 win mag AR pattern semi-auto. Anything else is lacking.
Much of the "best bear defense pistol" is gun rag trash and fudd lore.
Carrying any pistol for bear defense has already put you in a weak position. But if that's the option, then it is what it is.
I choose to carry a pistol that I know well with ammo that'll penetrate well.
Illustrious-Fact1014@reddit
I don’t know my 45-70 with some hot BBA rounds seem to work on just about anything that walks planet earth. To top it off you don’t feel like a wanna be tactical dork while out in the woods. LOL
Driven2b@reddit
BBA?
Illustrious-Fact1014@reddit
Sorry. Buffalo Bore Ammunition. I like a loy of Underwood’s stuff too.
BaconCheeseBurger@reddit
Did do blow on the barrel? You watch too many movies
Illustrious-Fact1014@reddit
If you get the opportunity to get off well aimed shots in ideal conditions it will work however most of the time the bear is on you and in which case it might slow them down long enough to have to revive you several times causing you more pain before they actually die. Remember everyone switching to 9mm isn’t because it is better than the others it’s just because it is more adequate than it used to be and a lot cheaper.
Illustrious-Fact1014@reddit
Also paper targets that aren’t charging at you with intent to kill you are a lot different than an angry bear. Just saying. Having unfortunately been in and survived a few gunfights paper targets on a flat range do not impress me.
Beashagtaz@reddit
I’ve heard the best option is bear spray for deterrent purposes. Less variability due to a spread of the irritant instead of requiring precise shots
Illustrious-Fact1014@reddit
Unless it is upwind of you in which case your gonna get mauled and have severe irritation from the spray. I carry both spray as well as lethal when in bear country. Bear spray and handguns are simply tools in the tool box. Not every tool works for the job at hand.
Beashagtaz@reddit
Good point! Didn’t think about that at first
Former-Ad9272@reddit
Will it work? Probably?
Given the stats, I want a can of bear spray; or something heavier.
I'm in black bear country, and the one time I had to confront one in the yard; I grabbed my 12 gauges and a box of slugs. As soon as I opened the garage door, he fucked right off.
cakeyogi@reddit
Buffalo bore heavy outdoorsman 147gr +P hard cast
-spartacus-@reddit
Sold out everywhere lol.
gotthesauce22@reddit
It can work with the right ammo and well-placed shots
Phil Shoemaker dropped a Grizzly in Alaska in 2016, he used 9mm buffalo bore and aimed for the vitals
rollingsherman@reddit
I only have black bears in my area and feel fine with hard cast 9mm. If I was in Grizzly country then I would be packing something bigger. But I would always default to bear spray first.
CRIMSEN15@reddit
I wouldn't say it isn't bad just no one has sat around to be like "while this bear runs at me let's find out how many 9mm rounds it can take" I think if you are in bear country it's just safer to go bigger. But I think in this bear scenario if you ain't running a pdw or pcc you are doing it wrong anyway for 9mm 10mm and then if you go ar. You know 30 plus rounds and more accurately than a handgun.
CianV@reddit
Well, I'd rather have (1) 44 mag penetrate it's skull than several 9s bounce off
therealrrc@reddit
You need one shot of .40. It would start ww3 and make the FBI cry but the bear would be stopped.
yt1300pilot@reddit
As a former hunter, if you are defending yourself from a bear, that probably means that its coming at you. Thats a lot of bone and muscle to penitrate to get to the vitals. So you have to ask yourself, do you feel lucky?
cannedbenkt@reddit
For black bears, get some buffalo bore 9mm at least. For brown bears, just get 10mm
Antonw194200@reddit
Allways with this, "is 9mm good against grizzly bears? 🤪".
No sir.....416 Rigby is....
AdSignificant6673@reddit
I read an article documenting bear attacks defended with hand guns. Pistols are effective against even brown bears.
Yea its true they have the possibility of plowing through those bullets and eating you. But they rarely do. They just run away and bleed to death.
PlumbgodBillionaire@reddit
9mm will kill a bear just fine. It's fast enough to go through their skulls. Just gotta hit em in time. I think I'd trust 10mm a bit more.
AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit
Better than nothing, but the issue is Bears have:
These are the claws that they're built to survive against.
As always shot placement matters, I mean technically a .22 can kill a Grizzly if you shoot it through the eye into the brain. But, I wouldn't recommend a .22 for the same reason I wouldn't recommend a 9mm.
Sure the noise and pain may scare them off, or it may enrage them and activate the "fight" part of "fight or flight". I'd carry something bigger, 10mm or .357 Mag at least.
MalPB2000@reddit
Yes. The problem isn’t stopping the bear. The problem is stopping the bear before he kills you, and that’s where your logic fails.
Bear and boar are notorious for running around and doing horrible things to people long after they’ve received a fatal injury. They have a disturbing habit of not dying fast enough, regardless of what you shoot them with…and that’s for projectiles actually penetrating deep enough to damage vital organs, which is where 9mm is really going to struggle.
Alarming_Resist2700@reddit
Obviously there are cases where a 9mm worked, and cases where it didn't. You can say the same if any prey.
If I carry a 9mm for self defense and I happen upon a bear from whom I must shoot to defend myself, then Im gonna do my best and hope for success, as I would with any creature.
If I'm out bear hunting and I have the option to pack a bigger round then I'll do that.
Its often unreasonable to pack for your most dangerous scenario. Its far more reasonable to pack for your most likely scenario. In most cases that isn't a bear.
ericroku@reddit
Bear beats 9mm+p
KingWoodyOK@reddit
Use bear spray. It's more effective and doesn't harm a bear of whose territory you are stepping into.
AM-64@reddit
Depends on where you hit them and ammo choice.
Regular people defensive ammo isn't going to do much against a bear it won't penetrate deep enough as it'll expand top much.
That's why most bear loads in Magnum rounds or 10mm Auto are almost always Hardcast lead, because penetration is key.
Grandemestizo@reddit
It’s easy to find news stories of people successfully defending themselves against a bear with a 9mm and if a story exists where someone shot a bear with a 9mm and got mauled anyway, I haven’t been able to find it.
Bears are tough but they’re made of meat and meat ain’t bullet proof. Most of the news stories I read where 9mm was used on a bear ended in a dead bear, either right there or after the bear ran away like a deer does after you shoot it.
DaddyHawk45@reddit
If you look at the sectional density numbers for most handgun calibers, they all fall with about .02 -.06 of each other. Generally, .14-.20 for the common ones from 9mm to .45. Momentum numbers are also fairly close with 23 on the low end for 9mm up to 36 for .45 Super on the high end with Buffalo Bore loads. If you listen to the people who have actually lived and worked in areas with big bears and had to defend against them, it all comes down to bullet construction. Hollow points do not penetrate deep enough to do the job. Heavy for caliber hard cast lead or mono metal deep penetrators is the way to go. Tim Sundles with Buffalo Bore has been putting out a lot of content recently on YouTube and just did a video about 9mm for bear defense (that I haven’t watched yet). I’d be a lot more inclined to listen to his opinion than some random yahoo on Reddit. And I say that as a random yahoo on Reddit.
GalvanizedNipples@reddit
I guess my thing is if I gotta pull my gun and shoot, I don’t want it to just go away, I want it dead. Where I live in PA, 20 rounds of the 9mm hardcast I carry for innawoods would probably put down a angry black bear. But realistically black bears aren’t necessarily the biggest threat. Idk about brown bears or grizzlies. I would feel really bad if I mag dumped into an animal and it just ran away to either bleed out or succumb to infection or something like that. Maybe idk what I’m talking about cause I’m a city boy, and I know at the end of the day it’s them or me, but I would still feel really bad if that was the case cause I don’t want any animals to suffer because of my actions, regardless of the situation.
OGDrewski@reddit
Yea
Personal-Web5007@reddit
He should've keep on shooting
Next-East6189@reddit
Brown Bears have been killed with 9mm pistols. It is definitely not the preferred bear gun though.
SadistPaddington@reddit
Bears have fur, then hide, then fat all before you get to muscle. Their bones are thick and fairly sturdy. Think of it like going through 8 inches of dense insulation foam, 1/2 inch of cement board (not dry wall), then you've reached the bear's muscle. Their bone would be similar to some brick work. So if your +P could pass through all that, you might be ok
GenericUsername817@reddit
And the rate of their blood flow is very low. You could land a single fatal shot with a small caliber and they will still have time to start digesting you before they die of blood lose.
So the gun needs to make a big hole or a lot of little ones very quickly
Neko_Boi_Core@reddit
unrelated but that single thigh strap holster is the sexiest kind of holster that exists
Elegant_Monkey_Man@reddit
Draw needs work. Nice rate of fire though.
TacTurtle@reddit
A 6" 357 Mag firing a 125gr bullet out of a similar barrel length will be about 20-30% faster than a 9mm +P, which means about 44-69% more energy and 20-30% more momentum.
To put it another way, 9mm +P fired out of a full sized 6-6" long barrel is at best barely equal to a 2-3" 357Mag
Ok_Crab_3522@reddit
Well I mean you could use it on yourself to help you play dead… but +p 9mm is gonna mostly get shrugged off by most brown bears as they happily eat you for lunch.
Most ppl won’t even carry .357 magnum for brown bears let alone 9mm.
Willing_Reserve6374@reddit
No bears=22mag Bears=10mm or 357 but that’s down south
Atlantic_lotion@reddit
Just get a 10mm, and then you don't have to be the one to test 9mm on a bear.
xangkory@reddit
I would like to see the situation in which you have to shoot a bear but have time to get off 20 rounds.
WastingTime1111@reddit
Do what you think is best but I want more than a 9mm if I was ever in this situation:
https://youtube.com/shorts/zNPG2_hzSmM?si=s8AKKtwB36t2F79g
Sure_Pear_9258@reddit
Okay I grew up fishing the same rivers these guys hunted. What nobody can express even with good pictures is the absolute size of these things. Even the "small ones" are like a small car that can charge you at over 40 mph. The big ones are like a toyota hilux coming at you at full tilt. If you had a a hilux coming at you at full speed with no human driver what do you want to use to stop that engine dead in its tracks? I guarantee your first choice isnt going to be 9mm.
throcksquirp@reddit
9mm can be used to shoot your buddy and hopefully distract the bear from you. Shooting a bear with 9mm will piss it off immensely and while it might eventually die, you will be well mauled before it does.
MyNameIsNotLenny@reddit
Sure. Just make sure to land half those rounds in each eye. Otherwise you're fucked unless the bear was faking it. But maybe it was faking it and now its mad. Or maybe it was mad before and it's hungry. Maybe you look delicious to the bear. Context matters. I guess it would be better then nothing but I would expect to die in the process.