First Tailstrike
Posted by Tigerdude20@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 77 comments
Hello, I recently experienced my first ever rail strike. While I know I’m obviously not the first and won’t be the last to experience this, I’m processing all of this so horribly. I’m coming here in an attempt for a “pep talk” if you will from fellow aviators.
Essentially my instructor always tells me I don’t flare enough. Which I always butt heads about because the way I land personally, is I flare like 10 feet above the runway and every touch down I’ve had with my method it’s been smooth. Obviously not at the beginning but once I got it down, I got down(knock on wood).
Today, apparently I flared too much, the aircraft ballooned, and slammed on the runway real hard. The skid plate got lodged into a plastic end cap on the bottom of the rudder. I am absolutely distraught about it. I am beating myself up to a point where I can’t look at other planes which is starting to annoy me because I know that shit happens. Please, someone give me a pep talk lol
propsnpours@reddit
Full stall landing with an aggressive flare at 10 feet and “butting heads” with your instructor over landing technique?
Instead of coming to Reddit for a “pep talk,” sit down with your instructor and debrief why this happened.
I’ve done stupid shit too, but my first goal always is to figure out what caused it so I can hopefully avoid it in the future.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
Both_Coast3017@reddit
“Essentially my instructor always tells me I don’t flare enough. Which I always butt heads about because the way I land personally, is I flare like 10 feet above the runway and every touch down I’ve had with my method it’s been smooth.”
“Today, apparently I flared too much, the aircraft ballooned, and slammed on the runway real hard.”
“Apparently” is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence.
Wanna try again?
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
I suggest you try reading again before making a dumb comment like yours
big_gorilla_cloud@reddit
Had a tail strike during my PPL training. I went from landing on a 75’ wide runway to landing on a 150’ wide runway. Since I still wasn’t really used to the sight picture, I thought I was getting close to the runway so I rounded out, when I was still floating maybe 8-10’ above it. As I felt the plane sink, I flared as usual, only I didn’t hit the runway when I expected to, so I kept holding the back pressure until we plopped on the runway.
Because I was trying to do a soft field landing, I pulled back even harder than a normal landing and after the initial plop, I basically pulled all the way back on the yoke and that caused the nose to shoot upward and then bam- loud scratch noise tail strike. Stopped flying right there and inspected, I bent the tab (obviously) and chipped off a bit of paint from the rudder, but luckily no major damage.
Safe to say I practiced the shit out of every landing until I couldn’t get it wrong. Don’t beat yourself up over it. Shit happens. Just don’t repeat what you just did.
Maleficent_Plant_982@reddit
Had a tail strike during my PPL training. I went from landing on a 75’ wide runway to landing on a 150’ wide runway. Since I still wasn’t really used to the sight picture, I thought I was getting close to the runway so I rounded out, when I was still floating maybe 8-10’ above it. As I felt the plane sink, I flared as usual, only I didn’t hit the runway when I expected to, so I kept holding the back pressure until we plopped on the runway.
Because I was trying to do a soft field landing, I pulled back even harder than a normal landing and after the initial plop, I basically pulled all the way back on the yoke and that caused the nose to shoot upward and then bam- loud scratch noise tail strike. Stopped flying right there and inspected, I bent the tab (obviously) and chipped off a bit of paint from the rudder, but luckily no major damage.
Safe to say I practiced the shit out of every landing until I couldn’t get it wrong. Don’t beat yourself up over it. Shit happens. Just don’t repeat what you just did.
hawker1172@reddit
Flaring at 10 ft is too high in my opinion for GA. Flaring that high is going to lead to a reduced energy state and subsequent tail strike.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
Well, I flare “last minute” to a point where I don’t need much flare to land. The instructor was on board indeed but I’m scared that I could somehow be at fault?
Jumpy-Access-8190@reddit
Nope. You weren't the pilot in command, so the blame isn't with you. Treat this as a learning experience, recognize how to avoid situations like this, and move on.
Adventurous_Bus13@reddit
Technically he is PIC since he is rated and sole manipulator of the controls right?
DOUBLE_DOINKED@reddit
He’s a student pilot. He didn’t sign for shit.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
Well I have my private pilot with instrument rating but I’m in the process of acquiring my commercial certificate. So I guess that makes me a student pilot?
Lumpy-Salamander-519@reddit
Ohhh then yes, you are PIC 100%. You are logging PIC right?
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
Yes I am logging PIC, but I’m trying to get my commercial which is why I think I’m technically the student pilot here. Secondly my instructor told me the final blame would be on him. I kind of feel bad for him because I obviously didn’t do this shit on purpose
Lumpy-Salamander-519@reddit
Yes anytime you are flying with an instructor (and getting dual given), he is the “legal” PIC (which I think is stupid).
Knowing that you could take the plan up with a friend or family member tho, you should always be in the mindset that you are in control because you are a full blown pilot.
But ya, shit happens, he has insurance and it’s just a tail strike. Obviously something isn’t right with the overall setup for landing so you just gotta revisit your approach and everything will be fine.
appenz@reddit
Pretty sure this is nonsense. I had a 100h dual received mentor pilot requirement from the insurance when transitioning to turbine, but for certain international flights I legally have to be PIC. See the Miller interpretation, 2010. If you think what you are saying is true, please cite a source.
Lumpy-Salamander-519@reddit
I can’t seem to find the Miller interpretation. But 91.3(a) says there is one real pic who is the “final authority” to that flight.
However both the CFI and student (assuming a PPL) can log PIC. But there is ultimately one PIC which would be the flight instructor. (Most likely due to still giving dual given, providing safety, and having more experience generally speaking.)
It may be different for the whole international flying stuff (not my area lol) but for a typically training flight, I’m pretty sure that’s how it goes.
The only time the instructor is on board while not the PIC is if the “student” is getting PDPIC for something like the commercial rating where they (or the school) do not want to fly solo fo whatever reason (that’s what I did). In that case, the CFI could not log dual given (I didn’t log dual received).
appenz@reddit
Correct that logging is independent. And correct there is always one PIC. The part where is disagree is the jump to "which would be the flight instructor."
Who is PIC is unrelated to CFI status, teaching or logging dual given/received. Assume you have a pilot (e.g. myself) who is rated to fly the plane (e.g. for a PC-12 and commercial pilot SEL). I can be PIC. There is nothing that prevents the right seat from being a CFI. Or teaching me things. Or logging the teaching as dual given.
If the student isn't rated to fly the plane, that's different and the CFI has to be PIC.
Specifically for part 91 turbine it's common to an insurance requirement that the first X hours need to be dual received. But I am almost always PIC as this is usually required (e.g. insurance requires PIC to sit left seat, I need to be PIC for international eAPIS filings etc.).
Makes sense?
DaWendys4for4@reddit
In the eyes of the flight school, the instructor is PIC but the student is absolutely PIC to the FAA. 61.51 says the instructor may log time, but does not explicitly state that I AM PIC. Similar to the safety pilot system.
Lumpy-Salamander-519@reddit
They both log PIC time and the student logs dual received. The text regarding PIC makes it sounds like there can ultimately only be one PIC. Do you have any LOIs on it? I’m sure this had to had come up many times before lol.
99% of the time, if an emergency occurs, the CFI is going to be looked at to deal with it so with that and the FARs regarding PIC, I would think it mean the CFI is the ultimate PIC.
DaWendys4for4@reddit
Logging and acting as PIC are two different things, I can see if I can find an LOI on it. This would be a fun loop to throw a commercial student through.
Lumpy-Salamander-519@reddit
For sure, I’m a new instructor and I’m struggling apparently lol. And thanks if you can find one please lmk.
I found one for a private pilot going for multi and the MEI was held responsible but the private pilot wasn’t rated in that aircraft so it doesn’t really apply to this scenario.
In my opinion, if you have a PPL, it should be on you haha
DaWendys4for4@reddit
I will also add though that we can instruct under basicmed/third class, which to my interpretation, would be then trying to act as PIC while using my commercial license which should be a no-go. Technically not logging in this scenario, but like you said I would have more overall experience and in the event of an emergency would likely be taking over to some extent.
Mountain-Captain-396@reddit
Yeah, that isn't true at all. The student can be legal PIC as long as the are rated for the category and class of aircraft being flown as well as having all appropriate endorsements to act as PIC with someone else onboard.
A classic example of this is an instructor with an expired medical still being allowed to give instruction to a CPL student as long as that student is acting as PIC. You don't need to be PIC to log dual given.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
That is the plan. Thank you!
Adventurous_Bus13@reddit
His flair says PPL . Either way I personally think it’s still on the instructor in this type of situation. Even if that’s not how insurance would view it.
Lumpy-Salamander-519@reddit
The only time you are PIC with an instructor on board is after you had a private pilot license. Otherwise you aren’t “rated” for anything.
Adventurous_Bus13@reddit
He is a PPL I think haha
Lumpy-Salamander-519@reddit
Yep you are right, I figured he was a student pilot based on what happened lol. Although there is still a reg that says it’s the flight instructor is still the “legal” PIC (which I think is dumb since they are already a full on pilot) so the blame is still on the instructor.
Mountain-Captain-396@reddit
His flair literally says "PPL IR"
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
Thank you
Icy-Bar-9712@reddit
Sounds like you roundout 10' up, let the plane settle and flare low to the ground for touchdown.
If thats what you are doing, its really dependant on how much airspeed you have and if you are on the front or the back of the power curve.
There is a massive difference between say 65 nose up and 65 nose down.
If your roundout is staying nose down or level then your method is perfect, if your roundout is nose high you risk a stall onto the runway, which may end up a prop strike. Trust me, tail strike is much prefered.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
I need to edit my original post and be more specific about how high up I flare. I don’t actually flare 10’ high because each landing will obviously be different but I flare “last minute” as in I try to flare as close to the runway as possible before I land on all 3 wheels. All I do is I come down, flare just a little but, touch down in the mains and get on the brakes. That’s it. The instructors at my school(which also includes my instructor) always complain I don’t flare enough. I don’t understand the need for excessive flare. I think there should be minimal flare to prevent floating and ballooning. As for airspeed I was right on the dot at 60 knots as that’s the final approach speed for the 172 S model… well, that’s what my school says.
Icy-Bar-9712@reddit
Ok, there's the problem, they are looking for two phases of landing. Roundout and flare. If you are not getting a distinct round out into ground effect and then a flare for touchdown.
If you are able to fly it to the runway and flare, juuuuust a little, and land it, you are coming in on the back of the power curve. Its how I do my short fields, the danger here is that you are really close to a stall in the transition from forward travel to hanging it on the back side. There are a bunch of other skills on for that type of approach you have to be able to do and do very quickly to avoid that stall. Which is probably why your instructors are getting nervous. They may not recognize its the round out thats missing. They just see the low flare angle and latch onto that as the problem.
Tuck this nugget away: anytime someone complains about what youbare doing, always look before the complaint. 9 times of 10 its the thing before the complaint item thats driving the need for the complaint item.
Problems in landing, its probably the pattern
Maneuver isn't going right? Its probably the setup
Flare is weird, its probably the roundout.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
So mentioning this part of your comment "If you are able to fly it to the runway and flare, juuuuust a little, and land it, you are coming in on the back of the power curve. Its how I do my short fields, the danger here is that you are really close to a stall in the transition from forward travel to hanging it on the back side. ", I do just that. fly to the runway and flare just a little bit. But I noticed when I do this, I usually have a good amount of airspeed(65-70 knots) because I tend to leave my nose a little more down which allows me to buildup more airspeed. As you can tell, I kind of have a hybrid method of landing LOL.
But you are saying, that the issue is not necessarily that I might not flare enough, but rather the lack of a roundout, correct?
AdamShadowhunter@reddit
Once you get to the flare state, a foot or so off the runway, they might be looking for you to hold it longer, thus bleeding off more speed until you start hearing the stall warning. Maybe you're letting the plane touch the ground with too much speed, which risks floating or bouncing. I've had my instructor direct me to that as well when I started. Once you get into the flare, you could easily rotate the nose up slightly to land on the mains but still be carrying a lot of speed. A wind gust or bump could toss you back up. Maybe you can try just holding the foot or so above the runway by constantly increasing angle of attack, then when the stall horn goes off, hold that AoA and let it settle. Maybe this is what he'slooking for by "more flare". Not so much more pull, just more speed bled off.
I fly a 182 with a stol kit, so I like a little extra speed, too. If I fly out until it runs out of energy, I get the 182 plop unless I throw a little power back in, so I get why you might do it that way.
hawker1172@reddit
I like your technique better. There’s a toxic culture these days of over flaring and slop. Each landing should be minimal float.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
THANK YOU! I don’t understand flaring the nose excessively. That causes the plane to float and balloon and makes the landing rougher. On your way down after using excessive flare, you have no energy to slow your descent
Mountain-Captain-396@reddit
Part of the reason is to protect the nosewheel. Its bad to touchdown flat or god forbid nosewheel first. Holding the airplane off the runway ensures the mains touch down first and allows you to gently lower the nosewheel down to the runway.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I agree 100%. But I don’t think a lot of flare is needed is what I’m trying to say. With my way of landing there’s minimal flare close to the ground and still touching down on the mains and then letting the nose drop slowly.
Mountain-Captain-396@reddit
How are you flaring at 10 feet but also saying you have minimum flare? 10 feet would be a very early flare for GA aircraft.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
I made an edit in my post about flaring 10'. It was just a guesstimate if you will. I tend to feel the aircraft and flare based on how high I feel the aircraft is.
Mountain-Captain-396@reddit
Gotcha, I just saw the edit. Sidenote though, a skyhawk departing 45 seconds before you will have absolutely 0 wake for you to worry about because wake turbulence doesn't generate until they rotate. Unless you landed so far down that you touched down where they rotated, the wake would have been no factor.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
Well they were doing a short field takeoff, hence why I mentioned it because I think that generated more wake than usual.
Mountain-Captain-396@reddit
Its a skyhawk. I very highly doubt there was significant wake turbulence.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
I know, but I think it was enough to cause us to balloon more.
hawker1172@reddit
Is this chat gpt?
Mountain-Captain-396@reddit
What?
hawker1172@reddit
It becomes an issue when you basically level off a few feet off the ground because then you basically stall onto the runway.
81dank@reddit
Do you stop rounding out and then flair? Or does your round out transition into a larger round out called a flair?
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
No, no. It's all one solid, fluid movement. I round out, then begin to flare.
81dank@reddit
So fly through your round out and get the plane 1-2 feet over the runway. Now you fly the plane in slow flight until you are 100% stabilized. Of you can’t stabilize, go around. If you can, now pull 1/2 to 2/3 of your remaining power and grease it on. Learn to control the plane in those final feet.
FlyingShadow1@reddit
You are judging where you round out. You need to look at a point on the runway and glide / fly to it at approach speed. When it goes under the nose start your round out. Then flare to keep the plane in ground effect. The flare is not all at once but will happen in steps.
You won't tail strike the plane that way, there's not enough elevator authority as you slow in ground effect.
If you balloon you need to release your back pressure. Use the end of the runway as your horizon to judge your flare.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
Yeah, that’s typically what I do but I’m always getting complaints from instructors because I don’t flare enough. As for where I look, I usually look at centerline close to the airplane, nit at the end of the runway. It’s a bad habit, I know. I used to do that when I first started flight training and it went unchecked by previous instructors. I am working to get out of that habit.
FlyingShadow1@reddit
If the plane is sinking you need to keep flaring. Keep it in ground effect. You will flare enough by doing this.
NitNav2000@reddit
To be more specific on attitude control, next time in the pattern when in the flare, try bringing your awareness to a bug smash on the windscreen that is also on the horizon (end of runway). Evaluate your flare. Too little or too much?
Next time around, in the end game of the flare place that bug smash a little higher or lower to the horizon at appropriate and hold it there with your control actions. When you do that, it locks in your attitude.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
I like this. I will be trying this next time. Thank you
Ok-Door-4991@reddit
My guess is you flared with too little airspeed and essentially stalled it onto the runway.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
That's what I thought initially but the issue is we ballooned even though we were at 60 knots. Like I said, I suspect it was either convection or mechanical turbulence from the previous aircraft taking off before we came in to land.
Ok-Door-4991@reddit
I think it’s because you ballooned that you found yourself at a low energy state, you could’ve added power to counteract this or gone around. Anyway, it’s ultimately hard to diagnose without actually seeing it, I’d try not to dwell on it as that’s never productive, try work harder to recognize the symptoms next time and make an adjustment, and move on.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
I actually did add power to slow the descent rate, unfortunately it wasn't enough.
Roolambo4life@reddit
I land the same way and almost every landing is smooth and butter. My instructor tried telling me to flare more but I think she’s come to trust my method as most landings are pretty damn good so she’s stopped. Mine may be a little different though, I generally come in with slightly more speed, I wouldn’t consider it fast, but more speed then usual - ground effect, slowly bleed off airspeed while simultaneously pulling power back and it’s cash everytime with that beautiful “skrt” sound from a soft landing. The times that I flared more when she told me, usually lost my lift, airspeed and sank into runway for a stiff landing. I’d say just do you man, you can clearly land an airplane safely and buttery from you stated above. If something works don’t fix it. just because they are your instructor it doesn’t mean they can land better than you 😉
Mountain-Captain-396@reddit
A smooth landing is not always a good landing. Its more important that you get the mains down before the nose than it is for you to touchdown very smoothly. Touching down on three points can be very smooth, but is terrible for the aircraft.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
YES THANK YOU. My instructor have experienced my landings and they still complain. Unfortunately, I can't just keep doing my way because they can take disciplinary action against me for being "insubordinate" but I usually try to slip my method of landing in because I personally think it's safer.
But yes, like you said, "The times that I flared more when she told me, usually lost my lift, airspeed and sank into runway for a stiff landing". This also what happens to me. Like I've said before, I think more flare is just unnecessary. Obviously you don't want to land flat but you also don't want to pull G's on your flare lol
SRM_Thornfoot@reddit
Lets cut to the bone. You think you have found a way to land that is better than everyone else, but you have multiple instructors telling you that you land wrong. You refuse to listen and continue landing your way and then you hit the tail. I think your instructors may have been right.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
I appreciate the insight, but you have it backwards. My instructor wanted me to flare MORE than what I usually do. I actually landed the way they wanted me to (more flare) which caused the tail strike. Secondly, I do not think my landing is better than everyone else. I do listen and I'm always open to insight. Being an ignorant dumbass in this field will get you killed. I always invite and welcome constructive criticism.
NitNav2000@reddit
The best way to learn a technique is not to slowly improve it from one side of error, incrementally approaching the ideal. It is to make errors on both sides to bracket it, then zero in. Flying, skiing, writing,...
Always angle in on turn to final? Aim to overshoot once (you may find yourself drilling the centerline on your try).
Rolling out past your intended heading? Purposefully roll out early. Bracket the ideal.
Not flaring enough before? Well, now you've flared too much. You've bracketed the ideal. You'll learn quicker now.
It's all good!
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
Thank you good sir
RGN_Preacher@reddit
“I receive feedback from an instructor that I was flaring too little after the round out. We were working on improving it together when I over corrected to emphasis the flare and caused a tail strike. It was an embarrassing mistake, but not intentional. After the incident I continued to perfect my landing flare and this taught me perseverance and XYZ”.
Congratulations on your new TMAAT story.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
What is a TMAAT story?
RGN_Preacher@reddit
Tell me about a time story.
Every airline interview and maybe a corporate interview or two will be asking these annoying questions as a way to get to know you.
Dangerous_Mud4749@reddit
1/ Stuff happens in flight training. Don't worry about it. Easy to say I know... but you have to internalise that. Sigh, have a drink, and get back on that horse (that is, do another landing). Good landings are lucky flukes if you don't repeat them. In the same way, terrible landings are unlucky flukes if you don't usually do it.
2/ Do as your instructor says. No-one cares if a student prefers this or prefers that. You're a student. Tell us your personal preferences when you've got 10k hours with half a dozen licenses & ratings. Until then, do as your instructor says. If you think your instructor isn't good for you, fair enough, get another one. And do what that instructor says.
3/ Numbe two was important. Read it again.
Tigerdude20@reddit (OP)
Thank you
culalem@reddit
I'm not going to debate the merits of different landing techniques, I'll leave that for other keyboard warriors and your instructor. I'm going to address the bigger issue I see. The most important skill you can learn is to learn how to move past things. Accept you made a mistake, figure out what you need to do to fix it, and then forgive yourself and move on. Otherwise when little things will eat you alive. So you broke a bit of plastic/fiberglass/whatever on the plane. It doesn't require an NTSB report, it can be easily fixed by a mechanic, and since your instructor was on board presumably giving instruction, it's their fault in the end.
Mountain-Captain-396@reddit
10 foot flare is definitely too high for GA, I usually flare around 3-5 feet off the runway. Flaring too high can lead to stalling just above the runway and slamming it down hard, as you found out.
assinyourpants@reddit
First off, from what I understand, that’s not great.
Second—let’s refer to this as “last tailstrike” and move forward and explain why it happened and how you learned from it.
PPL OUT!
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hello, I recently experienced my first ever rail strike. While I know I’m obviously not the first and won’t be the last to experience this, I’m processing all of this so horribly. I’m coming here in an attempt for a “pep talk” if you will from fellow aviators.
Essentially my instructor always tells me I don’t flare enough. Which I always butt heads about because the way I land personally, is I flare like 10 feet above the runway and every touch down I’ve had with my method it’s been smooth. Obviously not at the beginning but once I got it down, I got down(knock on wood).
Today, apparently I flared too much, the aircraft ballooned, and slammed on the runway real hard. The skid plate got lodged into a plastic end cap on the bottom of the rudder. I am absolutely distraught about it. I am beating myself up to a point where I can’t look at other planes which is starting to annoy me because I know that shit happens. Please, someone give me a pep talk lol
Please downvote this comment until it collapses.
Questions about this comment? Please see this wiki post before contacting the mods.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. If you have any questions, please contact the mods of this subreddit.