Porsche is literally stopping production and no longer taking orders for the 718. I know because I tried ordering one a month ago, and none of the half-dozen dealers I contacted had any incoming allocations.
Well, it turns out I was right and you were wrong.
Porsche is back to ICE, as are ALL the other manufacturers who don't want to go bankrupt. Many ICE models are back, including the Cayman and Boxster.
Now come back to reality, because your dreams aren't real.
I was telling you that you couldn't order a 718. That is still true, because the new 718 isn't available yet, regardless of what powertrain it has.
But even then, no, you actually are not right - you just didn't understand what was announced.
Porsche's recent investor announcement actually *confirmed* that the 718 is going BEV. The new part is that they added "top ICE derivatives" that would be introduced "towards the end of the decade". Now, it's unclear exactly what that means, but a common interpretation is that means Porsche will offer ICE 718 GT models (i.e. GT4, Spyder RS, GT4 RS). A GTS ICE model is also a possibility.
But the next generation 718 looks like it will be exclusively BEV until the late 2020s.
https://a.storyblok.com/f/274296/x/af421b23e0/update_strategic_realignment.pdf
So maybe you need to join us in reality.
Nah.
They just announced that they will continue to manufacture the ICE Cayman and Boxster, as has always been OBVIOUS for anyone with a brain.
Nobody wants EV crap, and Porsche doesn't want to go bankrupt building cars nobody is buying.
No? The announcement was that they’ll make an ICE top trim version of the EV 718, IE a GT4. That’s been the tentative plan since the EV 718 was announced years ago. Production is still stopping in October for the current 982 718.
None of these really upset me that much outside of the 718.
Kind of seems really weird to kill off a car that has all the characteristics of cars that are super desirable now.
Seems kind of like Porsche made the decision too early to kill off the gas Cayman and didnt have a plan if the EV Cayman was delayed like it is now, especially with EV enthusiast cars not doing the greatest.
It died off in europe due to cybersecurity regulations so I assume it was a bit more difficult to build it just for one market.
With the EV also delayed though it's a bit of a gap in their lineup
The malibu also wasn't half bad, likewise the 2nd gen cruise, chevy made some neat sedans over the years
Ye honestly, I read through the regulation (R155) and it's not like an environmental regulation that has an adverse effect on others for running units. It's just one that's beneficial to the consumers, so it really makes me wish they grandfathered in models currently in production with a disclaimer or something.
IMO it's ridiculous Euro forcibly requires cars to meet R155/R156 for older models instead of requiring them to be sold with a disclosure and let buyers decide if they are willing to take the (IMO overblown) cyber security risk.
That's not a viable solution.
"You can still sell this possibly unsafe chicken but with disclosure to the customer". How does that sound?
Regulations keeps improving our lives, excusing companies from following them breaks the point of having regulations in the first place.
> "You can still sell this possibly unsafe chicken but with disclosure to the customer". How does that sound?
Have you heard of the raw milk debate in the US? This site is mostly Americans and Americans have a wildly different view of allowable risk. So yes you could sell "risky" chicken with disclaimers in America.
I mean after everything that happened with Kia and frankly even my Dodge... and that's just hobos looking to steal or joyride. God forbid someone comes up with a more menacing money model for hacking cars, like making a death look like an accident or the VERY realistic ransomware type hack where you gotta pay to get your horsepower back roflol. The shit could even pop up right on your center console.
If the cyber security risk could affect third parties I don't think it should be up to the customer to simply decide to go with it. It could be endangering other people's lives.
Yeah something about the Cayman/Boxster not being up to future Cyber standard and instead updating the platform they decided to retire the gas engine as it's not a high seller and I'm guessing cost to develop ice and EV on 2 different platforms.
That was the biggest annoyance for me as well. I felt like their goal was to push you into a 911, which I found beyond annoying. Like in the 981's you couldn't start the car with the a/c off, like why?
My friend just sold his GTS 4.0 to a dealer a few days ago for $93k after 25k hard miles and 2 years. He paid $98k for it.
Dealer already has it listed for ***$113k*** a few days later. Apparently the demand for these cars is pretty nutty.
I remember that article.
I think they said it'd cost almost as much to make it pass cyber security regs as it would be to develop an entirely new car, so they dropped it, as they're assuming EV is the future. Didn't want to spend a massive amount of money to keep a car around another few years.
wrote about it in length before i'll go find the comment
but basically when components are designed now they need to be designed with best practices in mind and there are methods to document and ensure this
the 718 may be perfectly safe but many of these components were developed for the 981 going back over a decade
and so porsche can't ensure its safe, same applies for the r8 and the tt, off it goes
wow I never thought of this, reading an article linked in another comment.
do you think this can push carmakers to make simpler cars without much software involved in the future? this seems like a lot of it is because cars are overly dependent on software today. of course we can probably rule that out with EVs, but what about ice?
I feel like there is going to be a company that starts up to fill this void. Though it'll also get squelched out by established manufacturers temporarily releasing a similar style car as an option then dropping it the year this new company files bankruptcy.
I mean, it kinda tracks. So much of our cars are "connected" and digital now. I'm also all but certain uconnect is selling my driving data to insurance companies >.>
I rented a Malibu and drove it from Astoria Or. to N Idaho and I hated how good of a highway cruiser it was. It's supposed to be total shit, but was quiet, had decent power and was almost unbelievably smooth.
GR86 is due to cybersecurity, too, I think around the stuff involving life-of-vehicle integration and support of various driving nannies that would be hard to engineer in at this point. I expect this also has to do with where the platform is in its lifecycle, given that we’ve started to hear vague talk of the next gen GR86 (and I bet the huge electronics overhaul on the ND3 was partly for regular compliance on a platform Mazda expects to use for a long time).
EVs aren’t great enthusiast cars IMO. Most enthusiasts want the motor and the noise, and EVs are brutal on tires at the track plus a lack of reliable charging makes them extra unappealing.
95% of sports car buyers never go on the track and pretty much 95% of buyers of 90k euro second/third car buyers will have access to charging at home. And those who track their cars can afford a few extra sets of tires..
It's not an issue.
And this is something that will be a huge hassle in europe.
There are way less fixed parking spots that can be bought/rented. Streetparking is very much a thing and theres no charging to be had there.
(In addition to our Grid not being able to withstand the load, atleast according to my source being a teacher i had that worked for the Grid)
Also i'd disagree on your track statement, track goers can be very much budget aware, its one of the major argument for miatas since they're cheap to run on Track.
i definitely do. my car isn't known for having any kind of good sounding engine, and i honestly don't give a fuck about engine sound. vroom vroom, whoop de do.
i'll miss driving a stick, it's all i've ever had in my 20yrs of driving, but those are mostly going away from ICE vehicles too. (and maybe someone will bring a car to market that has an authentic fake shifter for when i want to reminisce)
the fact taht they require far less maintenance, and not burning gas are both huge for me. (and i have done a bit of wrenching on cars - swapped an alternator, replaced some broken emissions-related components and sensors, i even do my own oil changes - swapped on a fumoto valve)
Why would that be the case? The Taycan isn't an enthusiast car no matter the trim. It's a 5000 pound sedan regardless of whatever magic you throw at it. It will always be a commuter car as far as most buyers are concerned. And in that respect it's worse than the Panamera.
You know what also weighs 5000 pounds? The Panamera.
The Taycan also accelerates to 60 in less than 2 seconds, so your points are becoming less and less valid.
Only the Panamera hybrid weighs over 5000 pounds. But that's not relevant to my point. My point is neither the Panamera nor the Taycan is an enthusiast car.
Does 0-60 in 1.9 seconds make the Taycan a better commuter car? Most buyers of those cars buy them for daily life duties first. Any fun considerations are secondary. The cars are primarily transit devices. And the Panamera is better set up for that as it's a less aggressive drive and has more rear seat room.
If you're trying to tell me that enthusiasts *are not* buying this [Nuremberg record setting car](https://www.motor1.com/news/727258/porsche-panamera-turbo-s-e-hybrid-nurburgring-video/) or this other [even faster Nuremberg record setting car](https://www.motor1.com/news/712249/porsche-taycan-turbo-gt-nurburgring/), and instead people are just buying them as grocery getters, then you're delusional.
You can argue that they're not enthusiast models when both of them literally set the ultimate track record.
*Nurburgring
And yes I'm telling you that the 5000 pound executive sedans with massaging seats are not used primarily as enthusiast vehicles. They set great Nurburgring times because that's part of Porsche's core identity, but most buyers won't care. They absolutely are grocery getters, home to office and back, and maybe date night cars. To most of the people who buy them, they're just "cars."
And to go back to your original point, what evidence do you have that top trim Panameras outsell top trim Taycans? Porsche doesn't break down sales by trim.
>And to go back to your original point, what evidence do you have that top trim Panameras outsell top trim Taycans? Porsche doesn't break down sales by trim.
The fact that you can get massive discounts on the Taycans, but can't on the Panamera.
So you don't have any actual evidence to support your initial claim:
> If enthusiasts wanted EVs, the upper tier Taycans would be outselling the upper tier Panameras by far.
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Idk man, if yours was the general opinion "enthusiast" evs would do well, and most german car brands wouldn't protest against the 2035 ice ban. I would get so bored with an ev long term as a fun car, but i really don't care about straight line speed personally which is what evs are mainly good at so, if you like that you maybe can find the joy with one. But i'm still waiting for a small go kart esque caterham 7 type ev, not a single one yet that's widely available and known
there aren't really any "enthusiast" EVs in existence yet, outside of all of the individual creations by enthusiasts where folks have swapped batteries and motors into ICE cars, like bisimoto's "moby x" porsche 935 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-fkzGS2T5s
i don't care about straight line speed either, i drive an FR-S which is not known for being a fast car in a straight line. give me something with enough power that i can learn to carve a corner in (which the FRS does with only 200hp!) and focus on driving, not tuning.
oh yeah - there's also the possibly-upcoming EV seven: https://caterhamcars.com/us/models/evseven
clearly there is some market as there are people doing the work of building these things for themselves.
Do you think that *you* are representative of the community at large?
For that matter, do you think that /r/cars is representative of the community at large?
Or perhaps you restrict your definition of “community” to “the groups that I agree with”?
Or maybe you gatekeep the definition of “enthusiast” to match your opinions, because anyone who disagrees can’t be an enthusiast?
You don’t *perceive* enthusiasts to want EVs because you and your ilk find reasons to dismiss the opinions of any that do, and consistently and repeatedly shout them down, pushing them away from discussion boards and strengthening your echo chamber.
Different people can like and enjoy different things. You don’t have to like EVs to appreciate or understand why others might.
I don’t think my preferences represent the enthusiast community at large, no. Which is why I asked the other person, not you, if they feel the same. Not sure why you’re getting all bent out of shape.
The fact is that EV sales are slumping and many companies are abandoning plans for an all-EV fleet. Enthusiast to commuter, they seem less popular than the zeitgeist would have had them be in 2022.
You’re free to like whatever you like. I can certainly see the appeal. But I don’t think enthusiasts in general want EVs people consumers in general seem not to, and enthusiast are even more opinionated.
You *asserted* that *enthusiasts aren’t interested* in EVs. Therein lies the problem.
There’s a difference between suggesting that it’s a small group, and suggesting that they don’t exist. You may not have intended to frame it as the latter, but plenty of people suggest that an EV **cannot** be fun, and that no “true enthusiast” can like them. And I don’t particularly appreciate having my opinions *invalidated* - rather than *disagreed with.*
As for the stated connection between sales numbers and enthusiast opinions, the problem should be apparent if you replace “EVs” with “manual gearboxes”. Would you suggest that dwindling sales and options indicate a lack of enthusiast interest?
You might argue that Porsche moved too fast on EVs. Or that dropping the ICE Cayman/Boxster is foolish. Or that the tech isn’t there yet. *Those are separate arguments from suggesting that enthusiasts aren’t interested.*
As for *consumers,* EV sales continue to *increase* year-over-year. There’s been a slowdown in *growth,* sure. That’s not exactly indicative that consumers “don’t want them”. (Some don’t, sure. Others are waiting on infrastructure, or can’t afford them. Which demonstrates the problem with simple, absolute statements.)
I think it’s fair to assume that anything anyone says online is indicative of their opinion.
You’re welcome to write a diatribe policing others’ phrasing if you’d like, but I’m not sure it will lead to particularly good engagement.
> I think it’s fair to assume that anything anyone says online is indicative of their opinion.
What a wonderfully ironic statement when, some comments up, you responded to someone *stating their opinion that they want EVs* by asking "Do you think that you are representative of the community at large?"
> You’re welcome to write a diatribe policing others’ phrasing if you’d like, but I’m not sure it will lead to particularly good engagement.
I'd suggest that you'd get better engagement - by which I mean healthy discussion and debate, and not circlejerk agreement - by speaking for yourself, and not for a broad group. And by being open for discussion, instead of dismissing a multi-point retort by whining about "policing others' phrasing".
They are fast, practical, reliable overall. But there is no thrill outside of breaking the speed limit in a second. I wouldn't want to drive one out for a Sunday drive.
But daily ? Yes yes, so easy to live with
> what is a Boxster/Cayman doing in this case for a driving enthusiast?
The EV? Very fine accelerator response due to the immediacy of the electric motors allows you to more easily control the car coming out of a corner. Torque vectoring allows the car to rotate more readily than an ICE car. For the Boxster specifically, when you're not driving aggressively you can hear birds chirping, bats echolocating, leaves rustling more easily than in a car with an engine.
Well, you will especially hear inside rattles after a few years of driving on the road 🥲
I agree dynamic wise, but then you are driving with +400kg at least, very fat tyres, maybe massive brakes will be needed, it's very different. Better in some way, but not all.
The great emotion of a reving engine, roaring on the mountain cliff next you, will still be unmatched I feel.
But on a calm drive, it will easily be a more peaceful place to be.
There shouldn't be any rattles after a few years if the car is well-made.
The target weight for the Boxster EV is 1650 kg, which is definitely light enough for me to enjoy the driving experience. I'm used to an still have fun with cars around 2 tons, so the Porsche will be significantly lighter than what I normally drive.
I didn't bring this up earlier, but an engine doesn't move me in any positive way at all. The enjoyment of driving for me is all about how the car accelerates, corners, and responds to my inputs. ICE cars don't respond particularly well to throttle input. There's either a delay, or the initial response is sluggish or harsh, and that's before taking the gearbox into account which interrupts the acceleration. And noise isn't a positive for me. I don't want my car to roar.
Overall the EV is better for me on both spirited and calm drives.
We will agree to disagree, we aren't, at the moment, looking at the same "thing" to enjoy. For me, it's my first Porsche, first 6 cylinders, first build from the ground up sport car, everything is raw, sharp and sound epic ahah
And those 280hp are more than enough to break the speed limit way too often already 😅
And I am absolutely open to this idea of a fun sport EV, but those type of car will stay out of my money reach for a least a decade 😔 Porsche isn't helping either with their absurd prices
One big benefit however is that RWD layout are no longer reserved to a niche vehicle group.
i'd definitely enjoy one on a sunday drive myself - it's the steering feel and quickness and handling that are most important to me. you can already drive an EV basically like you do an automatic with its paddle shifters, just in an EV they add or remove regen braking (like downshifting to engine brake to prepare to enter a curve)
I agree with you. Everyone I meet that seat/drive my Boxster says it : wow the noise, the emotion, the gearbox, the driving feels.
EV being 2 tones, no sounds, all artificial feeling will be hard for enthusiasts that have known the before world. And at +100k bucks, they aren't for young
I agree too, even with the 718's 4 cylinder, my car enthusiast friends love the sound with the top down.
I'll say though that I'm young, in my 20s, and my friends around the same age as me (admittedly none of us are buying new Porsches), don't have the aversion to EVs that my older friends do. I do have a wealthy friend though that I share a lot of similar opinions with on cars, and both of us would really like an EV Boxster as a fast accelerating local cruiser and I feel like a lot of people would fit in that, although something like a Bentley Continental Convertible EV might fit that niche better, there's just not a lot of options right now.
The elephant in the room is the Reddit is mainly just composed of people from the west, but there's a massive market in Asia atm that loves Porssche but is very opposed to ICE cars due to regulations and an EV Boxster/Cayman would likely do well with them, despite the competition from Chinese EVs.
Yeah there is a market, the question is, how big his it and how to sell EV sports cars when a random EV sedan already accelerate hard, goes further, doesn't make less sounds ? You are left with an excellent handling and a good looking vehicle. Is it enough?
The thrill of a older cab is the engine note, the raw emotion. It is lacking now (well, even a lot of modern ICE anyway...).
In my friend group, 30's, we are all buying 20yo sports cars (Z4, Impreza, 986/987, mx5). In this bubble, EV are non existent. And the only guy in a TM3 is looking for a fun ICE as well, weird timeline right ?
There's a really big gap between 30s and early 20s in my experience BC we grew up alongside EVs going relatively mainstream and when hybrid hypercars were already entering the market in our teens. I also feel like less people care about cars now and for this demographic, a loud engine note can actually be a drawback bc it's disruptive esp in the city.
Killing the ICE Cayman is entirely dumb. No one cares about the stupid EV version. It’s almost like sports and exotic car enthusiasts prefer and enjoy having actual engines in their weekend toys. Hello, McFly.
> It’s almost like sports and exotic car enthusiasts prefer and enjoy having actual engines in their weekend toys.
Exotic cars are a different story, but car companies know that most legacy sports car buyers won't be interested in electric sports cars. At the Cayman/Boxster price point there could be enough target buyers outside of the traditional enthusiast crowd.
Maybe - I still think EV buyers are just looking to get from A to B. No driving pleasure involved. I could be wrong but thats not the buzz I hear and vibe I get from various local cars/coffee meets & shows.
Local car meets cater to people who enjoy existing ICE sports cars. Someone with a Tesla roadster probably won't feel welcome at a place like that. It's a bit like saying vegans don't like fine dining because you don't see many at your city's usual high-end restaurants. But most fine dining places are heavy on meat and dairy so there's no reason for a vegan to be there. Car culture is entrenched in internal combustion ("how many cylinders, can I see the engine, can you give me a rev"), so there's not much that someone who prefers EVs will get out of a meetup.
Well - at least you got the "entrenched in ICE" quote right. Sure the hell are. There is no other option for a real performance/exotic/muscle car. The engine is like half the equation if not more when discussing any enthusiast car. The sound alone is legendary for various cars like the Ferrari F355 and numerous other Ferraris, some newer V12's and on and on. Classic V8 muscle and even properly tuned 4-bangers can sound great. Even some fairly recent/new 6 bangers sound fabulous. Its just how it is.
EVs go whoosh whoosh. Yawn.
You're missing my point. I'm talking specifically about people who like cars but don't like engines. The car community and most of the car market doesn't cater to those people. Yet they exist and want what they want.
Haven't driven the 718 only the 981 but the chassi and interior wasn't really anything special. Made the car feel boaty and the interiors creak like crazy. Worse than any economy car (look at forums for those models).
981 is more boaty than the 987 and 718, it's like the equivalent of the NC to the Miatas in my experience. Porsche interiors are definitely not up to luxury standards IMO but the 718 is better than the 987's and would be minimum acceptable for a luxury car IMO.
Some of the interiors in economy cars like Hyundais or Mazdas look better but having driven (or been driven in) them extensively, they're definitely worse materials.
But, you still take 911 over than 718, don't you ? Your chosen just kill 718. It's same logic in between Corvette and Camaro, most people want Corvette then Camaro because Corvette is always better, so Camaro is now death again.
The real sad is that almost only exotic automakers able to offer many different kind sports car models in these day.
I'm torn on the 718. I had a Cayman gts and I loved it but it was also one of the most unreliable cars I've ever owned. It made my F-Type look like a Toyota Hilux in the middle east
That’s sad to hear. Every single mechanic I’ve talked to has said they’re very reliable. These are cars that you can take to the track straight from factory. But nothing is perfect I guess.
Personally I think it was a mix of getting unlucky with the car and how inept the local Porsche dealers were around me. I never had an issue with warranty work but I also never went longer than 4 months without the car being in the shop.
Hell after I drove it home it immediately needed to go in for repairs for 7 weeks lol. The dealer drove my car home when it was done except they forgot to attach the brake ducting so that shit was dragging on the ground for the 20 miles from the dealer to my house so it went back again the very next day.
They are pretty bulletproof with proper maintenance but you don't want to take them to a Porsche dealer; it's an old platform now that barely changed since 2012, and those techs just stick to outdated manuals. Good Porsche specialists recommend a different service interval, and they deal with these cars day in and day out. When I visit my local Porsche specialist, they'll have 8 Caymans/Boxters on ramps and 15 more waiting outside to be serviced on any given day. They're very easy cars to work on, so labour is cheap too (outside of Porsche dealers).
Yea I'm sad the 718 is gone too, it was the only realistic 2 door Porsche I can buy in the future. I hope they come out with an entry level 2door Porsche again in the future.
I believe the Cayman and Boxeter are getting the axe is due to the new Euro laws related to tech security for the components that go into the production of the vehicle
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I’m not trolling Cadillac.
I’ve owned as many as 5 GM vehicles at a time and I currently have three, although nothing new.
I have some very deep feelings about how GM in specific and American OEMs in general seem hellbent on speed-running their way to irrelevancy and bankruptcy.
I no shit found out yesterday that Cadillac sells / sold many more models than I’m aware of - and I work in the auto industry.
To be clear, I absolutely should be aware of what products GM has for sale - we buy a new or lightly used car every 5(ish) years (most recently in early 2020 so I just started shopping), my spouse and I make significantly more than the national average, and I’ve purchased multiple GM products.
Despite the fact that modern “big data” would be happy to tell GM all of that AND where I’m most likely to see marketing GM hasn’t managed to get in front of me in any significant way.
I don’t know what they sell, I don’t know how they meet my needs, I’m not aware of any incentives that might entice me to buy, and most of what I hear about GM / Cadillac is negative…. giving me no incentive to visit the sales floor.
That simply reinforces my belief that GM’s management team is deeply incompetent and that even a clean sweep of anybody above mid-level management might not be enough to save the company.
I don’t view what I do as trolling, I view it as tilting at windmills.
I do read. I read your comment history…
And we can all clearly see you’re trolling. That’s why everyone universally downvoted your comment. Anything else you’d like to add?
There’s a third gas-powered SUV, the XT5, that’s still clinging on. Plus they sell four electric SUVs, the Optiq, Lyriq, Vistiq, and Escalade IQ (also offered in IQL long wheelbase form)
>There’s a third gas-powered SUV, the XT5, that’s still clinging on.
Cadillac originally announced they were discontinuing it, but later backpedaled, saying the second gen (basically a first gen with a heavy facelift) would also come to the US.
The XT4 and 5 combined sell more than the Escalade.
>Which also begs the question: do s Cadillac have a marketing department? If they do, why?
I don't understand the question.
The rental spec ones aren't exactly the pinnacle of luxury. The ones I've been in felt not much nicer than a Malibu and worse than the rental spec Altimas.
I had a Malibu back in 2017 or so while my 2002 Accord was getting its Takata airbag recall completed.
I couldn't believe how shitty it was. I wanted my vehicle back ASAP and it was 15 years older.
I still drive a Malibu I bought new in 2015, and I'm very happy with it. You can seat three across with a child seat in the middle and stuff a full size bassinet into the trunk.
Yup. They will shove people into small crossovers that have less legroom and charge the same, if not more to rent them than they charge to rent a midsized sedan.
This attack on mid sized sedans frustrates me. Even better this year they've been neglected & stuck with dated technology.
* The US spec Genesis G70 has some weird Frankenstein'd instrument cluster. The 2026 model year gets a slew of *downgrades*.
*The Acura TLX was stuck with its TrueTouch interface.
* The Lexus IS continues to sport standard sunroof and Safety Sense 2.5 (2021), even though version 3.0 is 3-4 years old and 4.0 is shipping with '26 model years. You have more feature availability for $10k+ less in a Camry
*Many of the latest sedans look ridiculous (Audi, Lexus ES) because they're built on chunky EV platforms (which always leaves me wondering how the Model S avoided this?)
I mean, it’s a Lexus. Adding a couple of hundreds dollars for a luxury feature isn’t exactly a big deal to their market. We’re not talking about bumping the price of a base Nissan Sentra here.
no doubt, but given that I don't really want it (since all it does is heat up my already hot car), its just an annoyance to pay a few hundred more for a vehicle than I would've had to otherwise.
It's a luxury brand, the buyer should always have the choice on a sunroof or not, IMHO. I gave Lexus kudos for not forcing me into a sunroof when I bought my IS, and it was a factor in me buying an IS over a Q50.
It's not standard - when I ordered my 2021 and opted not to have the sunroof, it knocked $1100 off the purchase price, which I spent on options that would actually be useful to me. Just looked at the website, and that's still the case - the only car with it standard is the IS500.
Even so, that's still added cost over a traditional sunroof, so statement still stands - a glass roof is an extra, unnecessary cost when you can order the car without one or with a traditional sunroof that's already been fully amortized over the life of the third gen IS.
Less headroom, more shit to go wrong. And I personally don't like a sunburned scalp so I literally never use the damned thing. I don't want to have to wear a hat inside my car just to avoid sunburn. So skip the sunroof and all the costs to cut the hole and put in the mechanism, kthx.
Grassroots Motorsports did an article comparing two identical prep Civics on the autox course, except one had a sunroof and the other didn't. The sunroof car was close to the same weight but the CoG was higher bc of the weight up top.
This would never matter to any regular person but it might to a true enthusiast. It also takes up some headroom you might want for a helmet if you are tracking it.
Not sure why you're being down voted, but the extra head room, extra sound insulation and the fact I never use a sunroof were all reasons why I ordered my 2021 IS without a sunroof. It does make a noticeable difference to some people.
Poor choice of words...it's optional equipment on the IS, but my complaint is more so that it's only your "standard style" sunroof and not a panoramic sun/moonroof...considering that's what Camry, Sonatas, K5's and the cheaper Lexus NX have available. You're spending $10-$25k more for less effort and investment from Lexus.
The new ES is absolutely hideous. How did they go from such a beautiful design to this... Same for BMW 5 series as well. G30 was perfection. I think the Chinese manufacturers such as Nio and Lixiang pull off the futuristic design way better as they focus on minimalism.
The G70 made a weird change with the wheels for 2026.
2024, wheels vary based off engine and trim.
2025, every trim and engine size gets the same wheel design
2026, wheels vary again based off trim and engine.
I guess you'll always be able to spot a 2025 lol.
>The Lexus IS continues to sport a standard sunroof and Safety Sense 2.5 (2021), even though version 3.0 is 3-4 years old and 4.0 is shipping with '26 model years. You have more feature availability for $10k+ less in a Camry
I owned a 2021 IS350 from new before I bought my GR, and the safety sense system is not so different to what I have in the new car - good radar cruise, lane centering, and AEB that I never had to use, fortunately, so I find that a non-issue.
The sunroof thing is a weird argument - it's an old platform, and it makes sense to me that Lexus wasn't going to stick a warranty nightmare glass roof in a sport sedan that sells relatively limited numbers. I ordered my car without one anyway since I hate sunroofs, so it was perfect for me in that sense over the Q50 and 3er that forced me into options packs with a bunch of equipment I didn't want, which included a sunroof.
The IS's interior isn't ridiculously tiny. It's a compact sedan, so it has a compact interior too. It's more or less the same size interior as my current car. I checked out an IS350 a few months ago, and I can easily sit behind myself very comfortably. I'm five nine and a half, 150 lbs.
The TLX has a slightly larger interior than the IS, but it's the size of a G30 5-Series on the outside. Lots of wasted space.
>Many of the latest sedans look ridiculous (Audi, Lexus ES) because they're built on chunky EV platforms (which always leaves me wondering how the Model S avoided this?)
Isn’t this a consequence of their platforms being designed for ICE *and* EV rather than being optimized for one or the other? At least with the new ES the styling’s optimized more in the direction of 2020s mainland Chinese taste, too.
The FGX Falcon had the Coyote V8 yes, along with the 2.3L Ecoboost and 4.0L Barra i6. Some FG FPV Falcon models did also. Previous models from the BA of 2002 onwards (see flair) used the 5.4L Modular rebadged as the Boss. Before that, variants of the Windsor were used from when they brought the V8 back in the early 90s up to the end of the AU in 2002.
The Aussie Falcon was a four door sedan, wagon or 2 door ute.
Was it's whole own thing with a host of V8s - the latest FG generation used the 5.4L and 5.0L supercharged.
Though I think personally the turbo Barra 4.0L six is the way to go for the falcon
> length, 4.95m
> weight, 1,818kg
> year: 2016
The Falcon was always 5 series sized, that's the specs for the final turbocharged XR6 Sprint. V8 makes it even heavier. It's never been small: mine weighs slightly over 1,800kg from factory, so it's heavier than both the E39 and E60. Handling got better over the years but the sports variants are still commuter sedans with a big motor: 80% of the German sports sedan experience, for 30% of the price. The interior also isn't up to their standards: my Mazda is far better designed and cost 1/3 as much new.
> The interior also isn't up to their standards: my Mazda is far better designed and cost 1/3 as much new.
the BA Falcon interior wasn't that great when it was new, and Ford then proceeded to use it with fairly minimal changes for nearly 15 years right through to the FGX. No wonder why the Commodore outsold the Falcon with private buyers by such a margin.
I think part of it was a Ford thing more broadly: the Fiesta XR4 squeaks a bit less but had about the same problems (not maximising space, black on black interior, ergonomics are mediocre). The AU Fairmont Ghia interior is still my favourite on any Aussie built car: acres of fake wood, quirky circular motif, a bit of leather or cloth option, and colour options other than black on black!
But also man does it squeak and not fit together well. It's comfortable because the seats are big and it rides well, but stuff just rattles or fits together oddly all the time, and my Falcon has barely half the kms of the Mazda. It was built by Victorians and it feels it.
A tad bit longer than G80 M3 and almost same weight. I can see a possibility with low investment, but there's demand for a "Ford Falcon RS 2025 with an twin-turbo L6 using parts of V6 Ecoboost from Ford GT"? And could Ford build it on price range of CT4-V BW?
idk...
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People blame the Charger slow sales on being an EV but I think it being a 2 door only for the first year and a half was a bigger factor, especially with people abandoning Tesla in droves.
The car buying market unfortunately has proven to overwhelmingly prefer crossovers, SUVs and trucks. The only sedans that still has some presence is on the economy market (controlled by Japanese and Korean brands) or high end sport sedans (largely owned by Ze Germans).
Yes, but only in America.
In most world, Camry and Accord are considered premium sedans from normal brands, as both come with more luxury features than American ones.
Oh, I didn’t realize you were so discerning, and only cared about “dogshit EU emissions standards” because they may have influenced Porsche to get rid of a car.
You can literally blame cyber security regulations. Not emissions.
And if Americans could get on board with emissions regulations, maybe you’d get more European cars and have fewer smoke seasons. Idk. Just a thought. As a Canadian.
Regulating displacement instead of MPGs is dumb. You can have efficient 2.5L I4s with clever ignition timing and inefficient 1.2L I3s because there’s no overdrive gear.
Shit drives me crazy that cars are being so unfairly targeted for CO2 emissions.
Nobody is asking people to give up owning a dog: [https://pogis.com/blogs/news/carbon-footprint-of-your-dog](https://pogis.com/blogs/news/carbon-footprint-of-your-dog)
Nobody is demanding regulation of cheap clothing production: [https://carbonliteracy.com/fast-fashions-carbon-footprint/](https://carbonliteracy.com/fast-fashions-carbon-footprint/)
Nobody is pushing for permanent remote work to significantly eliminate commuting CO2 emissions like we did during COVID because oh no the poor corporate landlords would have to pay.
Nobody is regulating diets and saying we all have to eat less beef: [https://www.co2everything.com/co2e-of/beef](https://www.co2everything.com/co2e-of/beef)
And ESPECIALLY nobody is crying that we limit births because having a baby is the SINGLE WORST thing anyone can do for carbon emissions.
There are hundreds of things that could have more impact on CO2 emissions than cars. And yet. **Everyone** is putting it ALL on car owners and it's bullshit. I wish we'd just be transparent about everything that contributes to emissions, because I actually do care and have a negative impact DESPITE owning a hellcat that is lucky to get double digit MPG.
It's fucking bullshit that cars are the only fuckin thing getting blamed and regulated and I guarantee it isn't even about emissions, it's about forcing people to buy a new vehicle.
Some damn fine cars with real lineage there. That’s a shame.
And Chevy is officially out of the car business. Given their management competence, that’s only been on the horizon for 25 years. They should have ended their self-humiliation years ago.
I do not disagree. They had some great engineers (still do I imagine). I’ve driven a 2013 Cadillac ATS 2.0T quite a bit - great car. Rented a Malibu LT in NorCal a few years ago for a week - great car.
It’s management, not the engineers or people on the line. Sad.
> I’ve driven a 2013 Cadillac ATS 2.0T quite a bit - great car.
It's a terrible sedan though. The back seats are so cramped that the car might as well be a coupe.
I like it, since I like cozy cars in general, but I can understand why no one bought them.
I am the TLX's target demographic. Mid 30s software engineer who looks to Honda/Acura first and wanted something sporty, but ultimately more comfortable and practical than my FK8 was.
Why anyone in the world bought a TLX over a 10th gen Accord I will never understand. The Accord, especially when you could still get a 6MT CV2 like mine, is just a better overall package.
As someone who drives a lot and see bad, no common sense drivers, etc
it makes sense why people are buying less sedans and more SUVs simply because of the ground clearance as well. Some people simply cannot see the curves and I often see people just driving on a sideways curb but thankfully they have ground clearance to do so.
Although for newer drivers, I’m always on a mindset that a cheap civic is always the best choice so that way they know how to drive better in the long run..
Everything got bigger and bigger. Consumers compensate by buying something taller and bigger, like a slop crossover. Probably doesn't help that Americans are all obese and unhealthy, and larger vehicles are easier to climb into. But, I don't think these were organic trends so much as forced upon the consumer by mismanaged regulations and greedy manufacturers that simple marketed their way into the minds of new-car buyers.
> forced upon the consumer by mismanaged regulations
No. Consumers prefer crossovers / SUVs and are absolutely willing to pay more money for them. They aren't being *forced* to buy anything, it's the superior vehicle format. It's a wagon, plus a higher roof, plus more ground clearance, plus higher H-point, plus (usually) AWD.
People love to throw around "regulations" as the cause of any behavior they don't like. But the fact is, it's just the consumers - they prefer crossovers. You could add a ride height tax on vehicles, and it wouldn't put a dent in crossover sales. They are already more expensive that their sedan/wagon counterparts and handily outsell them.
Crossovers are the fastest growing segment in most countries too. It's not just the USA.
Something that I find fascinating is that most cars from the 1900s-1940s had form factors that were very similar to today’s crossovers. It’s like we’ve come full circle again.
We have. The sedans we were used to were a direct result of gas crunches, first in the 1970s and then 2000s. What really did the sedan in is that a 2010s-onward CUV is almost as efficient as a sedan. So the one *real* selling point of sedans, gas mileage, is gone. That is the real reason the sedan is dead.
> On a more serious note, why did it take the consumer market 60+ years to figure out it prefers ground clearance and a recliner chair?
Ever seen a pre-gas-crunch family car? They had a surprising amount of ground clearance and their seats were literally couches. The small, low-slung sedan was a temporary response to the gas crunch of the 1970s. The only reason it got any sort of reprieve was the gas crunch of the 2000s, otherwise the 90s were already killing them for SUVs. Then in the 2010s we got CUVs that had the profile of an SUV but the efficiency of a sedan and that was the real kill shot. A sedan simply has no advantages over a modern CUV except at absolute limit driving - something nobody who buys commuter cars is doing.
> It's not as if the interior volume is very spacious and a proper wagon still has more room,
That greatly depends on the size of the vehicle, no?
>On that note, remember when you used to be able to look through or over the roofs of vehicles as a pedestrian and now you have to lean forward around the front end of a Silverado to peek for traffic?
We can also blame some of that on the predilection for heavy tint.
Preferring crossovers is a global trend at this point. I honestly can’t think of a single market where the popularity of SUVs and crossovers is not increasing.
And how will ever a bigger car help with lack of awareness. A small car with 360 cameras is the way to go. It's reasons like feeling safer that drives people to these cars. And they give the impresson of a rugged capable car that does it all. Mastered the jack of all trades image.
Cadillac killing off the XT4 and XT6 is wild. Both models sold well and the "replacements" are EVs that cost a lot more. The Optiq and Vistiq are both great vehicles in their class, but getting rid of traditional SUVs and offering very expensive EVs with a fraction of the demand is a bit crazy.
Maybe there is less interest in sedans because they are uninspiring and suck?
My second ever car was a 97 Subaru Legacy GT. It was really fun and agile, AWD, light and great handling, with a cool hood scoop and spoiler lol.
Car and Driver says this about the '25 Legacy:
>Base engine delivers poky acceleration, CVT adds to the lazy feel, it's had an athleticism bypass.
>The Legacy offers good value and will serve you well as A-to-B transit, but driving enthusiasts should look elsewhere.
-----
This is what they said about a CX5 that I (my wife) owns:
>Despite its age, the Mazda CX-5 compact crossover continues to impress with a stylish exterior, a surprisingly ritzy cabin, and sporty driving dynamics.
Gee, i wonder why "interest in sedans" is waning. Surely it's the consumer's fault.
It is a sad but inevitable end to the Legacy. I think it’s a bit of an underrated sedan in the segment that was often overlooked by buyers.
I also feel like the QX50 had huge potential but was held back by its powertrain and interior design choices. It’s a great looking crossover, but the dual screen setup was outdated from the start and the 4-cylinder turbo just ain’t cutting it.
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As a Legacy owner, it’s sad to see it go as it’s also the longest running Subaru nameplate in NA. Also one of the only midsize sedans to have AWD on its top engine. Would totally trade in for a new Legacy Sport but they’re expensive
The death of the Legacy GT is still sad, they're great cars that fill the niche of a WRX but with better manners. Hopefully someday Subaru will bring them back as well as the rest of the Legacy lineup.
Last year the Legacy made up less than 3% of total sales. Ever since the Outback was introduced almost 30 years ago, its sales increased while the Legacy's declined.
All of the manufacturers are desperate to clear up capacity for electric cars. They can't afford to add capacity, they don't wanna cut SUV capacity, well there you go. Something's gotta give.
OUCHHH thats a lot of really great cars gone… even some of the SUVs on here weren’t half bad.
These discontinued model lists just get worse and worse year by year
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