I would quit this flight school immediately! Will it be comforting flying their airplanes knowing that if you crash or anything happens they will be quick to blame you and tell the public that they speculate it was intentional by the pilot?!? Sounds like an f'd up flight school to me. Unethical, pathetic, incompetent, unsafe, back-stabbing, etc. Id be embarrassed, ashamed, and scared to be flying their airplanes.
I definitely want to hear an explanation. This is supposed to be one of the better schools - their rates are higher and their planes are newer. The chances of a control failure in a c172 account for fewer than 7% across all c172 crashes. I want to know how this was even possible.
A quick search gave out this link from 9 years ago: [https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/54gscl/problems\_with\_kap\_140\_autopilot/](https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/54gscl/problems_with_kap_140_autopilot/)
oh yeah thats no news man, anyone whos flow a KAP140 is well aware how often they inop and do things they shouldnt. But the control binding is much more rare.
"do things they shouldnt" -- That sounds nightmarish. I've never used AP before since the rentals I used all had AP removed. Which AP is more reliable?
The G1000s GFC is much more reliable.
An AP doing something it shouldnt is really a non factor, as you should be able to override and disconnect it. Pretty standard practice.
However, binding the flight controls while AP is off is an extremely dangerous situation.
No, N5203H is the ONLY steam gauge C-172S that this school has in their Reid-Hillview fleet that doesn’t have a KAP autopilot. All the other steam gauge planes have a KAP 140. The other half of the fleet is equipped with G1000 with GFC 700 autopilot.
This is from the school site:
[https://www.attitudeaviation.com/fleet/n5203h/](https://www.attitudeaviation.com/fleet/n5203h/)
I know you are local so probably know better than some stranger on the internet but seems like maybe yes?
Hm. Interesting. That company looks like they maybe did some work on the plane, but that’s not the school. The school’s sheet doesn’t list N5203H as being equipped with KAP140. It’s possible the sheet is wrong. The link you sent suggests it DID have it. I cannot confirm as I never rode in N5203H. But I think you’re on to something.
No, IIRC, that's exactly the thing. It'll get the servos stuck and disabling the power won't do anything. At least if that unit is the one I'm thinking of
That’s unsettling. I am intending to train on the glass dial planes, and they’re all equipped with the KAP140.
I did a little bit of google searching and can’t find any conclusive writing value the KAP140 being the cause of accidents such as this, but it wasn’t a completely thorough search.
its a very strange phenomenon happening this yeR, in 2025. The FAST (FAA Safety Team) came and spoke at our school about it. There have been like 6 cases this year of the kap140 engaging without AP ever showing that it is on, locking up, and not allowing any manual override. The solution is to pop the autopilot circuit breaker, but this doesnt typically come to mind without AP being on. Thats why FAST is telling flight schools about it. If you have a kap 140, and your control surfaces lock up or act abnormal, pop the AP cb.
They said there have been less cases of this since the units inception than there have been this year alone.
Wow, very interesting. I wonder if the systems are just aging out now and experiencing malfunctions due to age factors… thanks for sharing. That’s scary stuff. But good to know about this.
One other commenter said that the servo could get stuck. I proposed “what about turning off main power” to which the comment responding essentially said that it wouldn’t help. So I do wonder what the actual root cause is.
Popping the circuit breaker crossed my mind as a troubleshooting step. I do wonder if this victim pilot thought to do that, or if he was too panicked to troubleshoot with the cbs.
Agreed on all counts. Unfortunately according to the pilot that launched to try and help they pulled the breaker and turned off the master to no avail. Will be very curious to hear how this resolves.
And for the record, Cessna AP breakers usually have a collar around them, so they can be easily identified. This is a mitigation of an occasional runaway electric trim risk.
But if you can’t find it, turn off the avionics (bus 2 if it’s split) or the master.
A decent checkout should include all the ways to disable the autopilot or electric trim. They fail just often enough that this is needed.
Have they published anything online about this? Would like to bring this up at my school since all of our aircraft have this autopilot.
I’ve always known they are dog shit and malfunction all the time, but never in a manner this dangerous.
In one description of this flight I heard that the pilot went as far as turning off the master switch for a while and that did not free the controls. Obviously, that isn't NTSB final report verified.
Any idea what it might be about the kap140 that it can't be over-muscled? From the little I know about APs for these aircraft, they generally either have a clutch that requires power to engage or a shear pin, but also that they shouldn't be strong enough servos that the pilot can't overpower them.
I’m not certain. I will have to ask the flight school about it - I’m not well educated on how the KAP140 functions. Another commenter did leave some info he learned from his flight school further down in the thread
That school was always solid when I worked atRHV Usually when I hear about an incident from RHV I assume it's from a different school who's planes always seemed to have all sorts of issues.
Ohh. When I worked there the instructors and owners were very easy to work with and we had a good relationship with them. Hopefully the sale is a good thing?
No ideas how it is run. Had a couple of nerve wrecking experiences with their pilots in the area. I feel very sad for the pilot in the accident. From the ADS-B it seems he's done everything in his power, then I saw the TWA statement on their website speculating pilot intention. So unbelievable.
Says the one with no flair. Least I was honest enough to put a flair.
You can take your attitude over here -----> also. Or <----- here. Anywhere but within my sight
True. Thanks for the reassurance. It was easy to quickly become anxious over this, but maybe it’s not fair to do so before the investigation is even concluded.
Even worse, they are actively lying to people and saying that the plane isn't theirs but rather from "another company" on the field. Despite the fact that it's registered to their parent company and that tail number is on their fleet sheet. So disappointing from a school that had a stellar reputation for years.
Looks like they posted this just a couple hours ago, so now they are being more honest:
"There was a tragic incident that occurred on August 26v involving an aircraft rented from Trade Winds Aviation. The NTSB investigation is ongoing and Trade Winds is fully cooperating. Since the incident there has been rampant speculation as to the cause. This is a difficult situation for the family of the pilot, our employees, and our Members. Until yesterday we have not been able to make any public comments, and we understand the frustration by many with the lack of communication. Please read below our statement on this incident.
Statement on Recent Aviation Accident and Ongoing Investigation
We are deeply saddened to confirm that a fatal aviation incident occurred on August 26, involving a privately operated Cessna 172S departing from Reid Hillview Airport at approximately 3:10pm local time. Tragically, the pilot—who was the sole occupant of the aircraft—did not survive.
Our thoughts are with the family and loved ones of the individual during this incredibly difficult time. We are working closely with the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), who are leading a thorough investigation into the incident.
In the immediate aftermath of the incident, there has been public speculation suggesting mechanical failure. At this time, we urge the public and media to refrain from drawing conclusions while the official investigation is underway.
While we will not discuss specifics pending the findings of investigators, we are aware that early indications point to factors unrelated to mechanical malfunction. We are fully cooperating with the authorities as they examine all aspects of this tragic event, including the possibility of intentional actions by the pilot.
As always, safety remains our highest priority, and we stand with our partners in aviation and law enforcement as they work to uncover the facts.
Further updates will be provided as information becomes available through official channels.
Please report back as I am curious, too. I won't be going back unless some other facts come out that support that it wasn't really from there. But that seems really unlikely when it's on their fleet list in black and white.
aviation-safety.net just updated the brief on this accident with the below info:
>Confirmed by Mike Lionudakis (over phone to blancolirio on Youtube), the pilot of the trailing aircraft: N5203H's yoke was stuck jammed forward. Mike asked the pilot to, at one point, pull the autopilot circuit breaker and to turn off the master, both of which had not released the jammed controls. The pilot was able to overpower the jammed controls on multiple occasions to which the controls would jam again. The pilot also observed that the aircrafts elevator would periodically move to the nose up position. to no avail the aircraft was unrecoverable, the pilot tried to set up to land away from population during the attempt to land but the aircraft was unable to safely land.
Watching Juan Brown's video last night and again this morning. I've watched a lot of accident investigation videos......this may be one of the most horrifying situations I've seen.
Genuinely asking, could it have been CAT related? It was a hot day yesterday and I know that there was some not insignificant convection in the Bay Area.
Literally my worst nightmare. Reminds of of the guy in FL a few months back in the C310 who couldn't control the plane for about an hour and ended up nosediving it into the ground with 3 people onboard.
Fuck I heard this guy on guard while flying into Reno yesterday. We were getting our ass kicked while dodging thunderstorms and heard this guy with panic in his voice declaring an emergency, having issues with flight controls. We passed along the info to Oakland and NorCal was aware of the issue. When we departed I asked NorCal and they said somebody was following him attempting to help him out. Sad day.
The ADSB track log seems very odd for this flight last night, that crashed in CA.
https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a68bb7&lat=36.984&lon=-120.962&zoom=12.0&showTrace=2025-08-27&trackLabels
However after a bit more research today, it seems like it was an issue with the flight controls. Horrifying if true.
>My radio scanner actually picked up their audio before he squawked 7700. I heard someone crying on the frequency telling NorCal Approach that they had lost controls to their Cessna and were at half fuel.
The reason for the dramtic movements was cause by a high bank angle, and the pilot could only maintain speed by pitching down and back up.
The other cessna that was following him was doing their best to help out with the situation and giving NorCal visuals. I could hear the pilot of the second Cessna doing his best to comfort the pilot in distress. The last thing I heard before I lost audio connections were the cries of the pilot and the second cessna letting him know that he wasn't alone. The cessna that squawked 7700 disappeared from radar about an hour later.
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