Don’t rely on a commercial ship giving way, you could end up with 1/2 a boat or worse.
Posted by Blue_foot@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 144 comments
Sailboat crew thought the ship was giving way. They did not. Crunch.
Perhaps the ship didn’t believe a sailboat was going 15+ knots.
siretsch@reddit
Commercial traffic doesn’t give way to sailboats. Sometimes they literally can’t.
My home port is in a bay with steady commercial traffic and the general rule is to stay the hell off the fairway. I always keep my AIS on and make sure radar reflector is set up.
nmperson@reddit
It does per colregs. If they literally can’t give way, then they are restricted in their ability to maneuver, in which case they don’t. But there are no special rules for “commercial traffic” wrt to colregs.
But your general rule is certainly advisable.
ErieSpirit@reddit
Restricted in ability to maneuver is not the rule you are looking for here. That only applies to vessels that are restricted due to the nature of their work, such as dredgers, buoy tenders, and the like. It does not apply to vessels just going from point A to B. Additionally there is a very specific light/shape they must display to be classified as restricted.
nmperson@reddit
Incorrect, a large ship in a narrow channel is restricted in its ability to maneuver regardless of the nature of its work.
elprophet@reddit
The article goes out of its way to establish this portion of the course was within a TSS, the yachts were 100% the gave way vessels per colregs and certainly per race rules.
LordGothington@reddit
I am not so convince. Looking at 10(i) and 10(j) we see:
We see that a vessel engaged in fishing "shall not impede the passage" where as a sailboat "shall not impede the *safe* passage". I don't think we can just ignore the word 'safe'.
If the commercial vessel was able to safely change course, then the sailboat should still be the stand on vessel. And since the commercial ship initially agreed to change course, it is reasonable to assume it could do so safely.
You can see various illustrations of these rules here,
https://future-seafarer.com/important-explaination/
So I think the sailboat was fine in terms of colregs. No idea about race rules.
And "Don’t rely on a commercial ship giving way" is certainly solid advice.
AmoebaMan@reddit
Technically not a "give way," rather the sailboats have the "shall not impede passage" words. Means they're already in the wrong if anybody even has to consider giving way.
PTMorte@reddit
I think it could have been much clearer and more damning of the crew/series. Why for example did it repeat their various excuses for some pretty major F ups on their behalf. But not quote any other source about the incident.
euph_22@reddit
Not strictly limited to Commercial vessels but:
Colregs
9 (b) A vessel of less than 20 m in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.
9 (d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel of fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34 (d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.
10 (j) A vessel of less than 20 m in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.
AmoebaMan@reddit
It sounds like only rule 10 applied here, but still...yeah. Sailboat is principally in the wrong IMO.
Of course, the merchant still gets slapped with rule 17b. Nobody is ever 100% innocent.
euph_22@reddit
TBF the comment thread I was responding to was talking about commercial traffic operating in a narrow channel/fairway. I included Rule 10 since it related to the incident describe in the OP.
And you are right that the container ship failed to act when it was clear the sailboat wasn't getting out of the way. Also the "you call the Cross" was special. From a practical standpoint they likely couldn't directly render aid effectively, but they damn well could call a mayday.
chpsk8@reddit
Bingo.
MissingGravitas@reddit
This is... I think not quite correct as intended. To clarify:
To use an analogy, "restricted in their ability to maneuver" is like a road construction crew at work, with their flashing white and amber lights. "Not under command" is like a vessel broken down on the road with flares out. Large shipping traffic doesn't generally fall into either category.
Most people's interactions with large ships will actually fall under Rules 9 (narrow channels) or 10 (TSS lanes) and have nothing to do with the "pecking order".
AmoebaMan@reddit
This is correct.
siretsch@reddit
Okay let me rephrase that. If there’s a 13-deck 100m ferry coming towards me at 25 knots, I’m gonna get off its course no matter what the colregs say :)
LordGothington@reddit
But in this case the commercial traffic did agree to give way over VHF. But then decided the sailboat wasn't really a sailboat and they weren't going to give way. And then the commercial vessel ran over what was definitely a sailboat.
Going to need to wait for the full accident report on this one. But it sounds like the commercial vessel could have diverted course, was supposed to divert course according to colregs, agreed to divert course, and then last minute decided to run over the sailboat instead.
AmoebaMan@reddit
TSS rule applies here, not the usual hierarchy. Per 10j, the sailboat "shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane." Sailboat is in the wrong for even producing a situation where anybody needed to give way.
LordGothington@reddit
10(j) is absolutely relevant but the keyword there is safe.
I believe a sailboat can impede the passage of a power-driven vessel, but not the safe passage. If they didn't want sailboats to impede the passage under any circumstances, then why include the word safe?
Notice the difference between 10(i) and 10(j).
I don't think the authors randomly threw in the word safe for 10(j).
You can find find some examples of a sailboat impeding the passage vs safe passage in this course material,
https://future-seafarer.com/important-explaination/
I simply do not have enough information to say whether the sailboat violate rule 10(j) or not. Nor do I know what other race rules may have been in effect. As I said, I am going to have to wait for the official accident report on this one.
If they were a cruising boat and they made this decision, they would have been idiots, even if they were technically the stand-on vessel. Why risk it when you can just take a slightly longer route?
Racing is about pushing boundaries and taking calculated risks. If they really were the stand-on vessel and given that they had positive confirmation from the commercial vessel that it was going to change course, then maybe it was a reasonable risk.
MissingGravitas@reddit
This is an interesting distinction, and were it not for the "passage or safe passage" phrasing in Rule 8, I'd almost have considered it a drafting oversight.
Farwell's considers both situations to result in a "dual action" requirement where both are close to give-way; the sailboat is still required not to impede, and needs to keep that in mind when taking action, but similarly the ship is still obligated to take the appropriate action herself.
An older US case (Linehan v. United States Lines, Inc., 417 F. Supp. 678, 692 & n. 29 (D. Del. 1976)), using the previous Rules, had this statement relating to the narrow channel rule (emphasis added):
AmoebaMan@reddit
I actually never noticed that distinction. Thank you!
pass_nthru@reddit
thankfully i learned (and later taught) sailing at a marina just down river from a freight pier, with a channel pier & dredged for commercial traffic on lake michigan. helps illustrate right-of-way rules when the wake of a passing ore freighter is what is tossing your boston whaler as you try to tack out of the channel
markforephoto@reddit
THANK YOU! I work on a tug and barge as well as own a sailboat. The amount of sailors that think they have the right of way is fucking mind boggling. get out of the way or prepare to no longer have a boat and it will be your fault.
putzncallyomama@reddit
Can you avoid a DNF if you finish with 51% of your boat?
Gouwenaar2084@reddit
There are graveyards filled with people who had the right of way. Your first duty as a skipper is to get you and your crew home safely
Bigfops@reddit
I sail in the Chesapeake. The first instructor I went out with said "They have to be on time of they get fined. If they veer out of the channel with will run around, that's $XX,XXX per hour. It is cheaper for them to kill you and pay the lawsuit than to change course" (I forget how much he said)
dmootzler@reddit
If in a channel, the sailboat will be the give way vessel anyway so there’s no ambiguity at all in that case.
Westreacher@reddit
Pretty sure all of that is absolute rubbish
Ok-Construction-454@reddit
Not rubbish. Same for some free hanging roller coasters. People with a large leg to body ratio are at risk of pulverizing their legs if they place their legs on the chair in front of them during a transition section from upwards to downwards. (Crunching the roller coaster a bit)
Its cheaper to just have a big pile of money in case it happens.
Same for commercial ships. Cheaper to just go and have some money in case someone does something stupid then to stop each time and lose tons of money.
Westreacher@reddit
Huh?
Ok-Construction-454@reddit
Huh?
Westreacher@reddit
I’m sorry I should’ve been more clear. I don’t understand what you’re talking about
Vakama905@reddit
Is it cheaper for them to kill you and pay the lawsuit? Almost certainly not. Is it cheaper to bet on you, 99.9% of the time, either being smart enough to not play chicken with them or backing out first if you do? Absolutely.
MapleDesperado@reddit
And yet the lesson is real.
euph_22@reddit
Pretty sure you missed a few x's.
mujolsubmarino@reddit
I sail both comercially on giant tankers and leisurely on sailboats. At Open Sea a commercial vessel will not have a problem giving way to you if it’s your right to. Most seafarers will know of your position miles away. However if your boat does not have a proper radar reflector and no AIS information it will be hard to know your intention.
However when navigating close to shore and specially near canals or shipping lanes it is another story. First of all ships navigate on a very narrow passage plan in which there are put into consideration draft limitations and safety distances from ships/objects. Even so sometimes a risk assesment an a passage plan review shall be held would that be the situation.
So, even though a sailboat may have a right to stand on, it could potentially lead to a far more dangerous situation on board the bigger vessel.
No, this is not for commercial purposes. There are no delays for maneuvering other vessels. That is stupid and misinformative.
millijuna@reddit
Crossed the Atlantic on a Navy AOR with a frigate in consort with us. We were about 6 days west of the Azores when we came across an eastbound sailboat with her spinnaker out and ghosting along. They were literally right on our course and CPA was something like 25 yds. The watch officer hailed them (I think woke the sailboat’s up from a nap, given how groggy he sounded) and let them know we’d alter out of their way. We deviated a few degrees south, and passed them at half a mile. No one else within 100+ nautical miles, and this one guy initially had a CPA of 25yds. Funny how that kind of thing happens.
mujolsubmarino@reddit
That must have been really scary for the smaller boat. It never happens until it does. The sea is very big but not infinite…
millijuna@reddit
Especially when two large grey ships come up over the horizon and out of the haze.
Westreacher@reddit
Here we go. Ships in channels that must stay in them for safe navigation are the standard-on vessel. The only vessels that are above them are Restricted in Ability to Maneuver, which is defined by the work they’re doing, dredging, cable laying, salvage, buoy maintenance, etc.It doesn’t mean your vessel is hard to maneuver as much as you can’t maneuver. Topping both of those is not Not Under Command, which can mean a lot of things, loss of steerage, fire, sinking, one engine out…
So, for those who don’t care for reading: Stay out of the channel if possible Don’t go near ships under way You cannot sail across the bow of a ship in a channel.
The tonnage rule does not exist
Commercial operators can and will go to jail if they kill you through malice or ignorance or bad luck
Listen to your frigging VHF,
Channel 16. It’s the law.
Look behind you now and again.
45 years of experience, last 15 on high-speed pax vessels
2airishuman@reddit
Except that they weren't in a narrow channel. Read the article.
Westreacher@reddit
Check. Read it before I posted anything, as any sane person does. You know what a TSS is, I’m sure. And I know what the rules are, I’m sure. In fact I’ve even raced a 146-ft sailing vessel across the Atlantic and into the English Channel all the way to Cowes. At night, during the day, and in restricted visibilty. And I’m the guy who takes all the heat because when I’m not racing on stupid sailboats, I run high-speed commercial vessels in all conditions, so when I misunderstand the rules, I stand a good chance of losing my livelihood. So, yeah. I read the article.
Sweaty-Seat-8878@reddit
thank you the actual rules…sailboats don’t have the “right” to skip around channels where deep draft vessels are making way. they just dont
millijuna@reddit
The “Not Under Command” is a big one. I sail in and around Vancouver in my little Ericson 27. A couple of years ago, I whacked a log with my rudder, and wound to jamming it at about 10 degrees starboard. All I could do was tight donuts. We were right at the mouth of the outbound traffic lane from the inner harbour.
We quickly notified Traffic of our plight, and had C-Tow on their way. Traffic held the departure of a cruise ship by 20 minutes because of us. Nothing we could do about it.
EmotioneelKlootzak@reddit
Blows my mind how few people do this. Especially in sailboats when much higher speed commercial traffic is around.
SimilarStrain@reddit
In some cases they cant and/or wont give way. Lake Saint Clair for example. The whole lake is only like 10ft deep, except for the narrow freighter channel that was dredged out year ago that is like 30ft deep. Theyre not going to move.
Also, I think these types of situations call for "be in the right and dead, or take the loss and live" pretty easy decision imo.
ErieSpirit@reddit
And by COLREGS the sailboat (or any vessel under 20m) is always the give way vessel to vessels operating in a narrow channel or fairway. Of course they are not going to move, and are not required to.
LordGothington@reddit
A sailboat is prohibited from impeding the safe passage of a vessel in the traffic lane. So in a narrow channel or fairway the sailboat is the give way.
But if the vessel in the channel can safely alter course around the sailboat, then I think the sailboat is still the stand-on vessel.
https://future-seafarer.com/important-explaination/
ErieSpirit@reddit
Causing another vessel to alter course is the definition of impeding, even if the vessels passed safely. There are many court cases that have established this. The sailboat would never be the stand on vessel in this particular case.
LordGothington@reddit
Correct! In 10(i) it says
Very clear cut. But what does 10(j) say?
If it said a "sailing vessel shall not impede the passage" then it would be equally clear cut. But it says "shall not impede the safe passage".
Why do you think they included the word safe in 10(j) but not 10(i)? Surely they intend for it to mean something.
If the PDV can safely go around the sailboat, then the sailboat has impeded passage, but has it impeded safe passage?
Why do you think they included the word 'safe' in 10(j) but not 10(i)? I don't think you can just ignore that word -- especially if you are the captain of the PDV.
ErieSpirit@reddit
I commend you on your attention to detail diving into this. A couple of things though:
1) The discussion I was having was regarding narrow channels (original comment was regarding a narrow channel through Lake St. Clair). That would fall under rule 9 which does not include the "safe passage" verbiage.
2) Rule 10 is for traffic separation schemes. While the use of the word "safe" in 10(j) is interesting, practically the courts have found any forced altering of course to be worthy of a fine, even if both vessels passed without issue. You can find some interesting reads from the UK courts regarding the various TSS around them.
2airishuman@reddit
This wasn't in a narrow channel or fairway. Read the article.
ErieSpirit@reddit
If you read the comment I was replying to you will see we were not discussing the events in the article, but rather the narrow channel that goes across Lake St. Clair.
Westreacher@reddit
Lake Saint Stupid!!!
MWorld993@reddit
The awkward mnemonic: New Reels Catch Fish So Purchase Some
Many times commercial vessels are a R or C which makes them the stand on vessel to just about everything else on the list.
AmoebaMan@reddit
...Purchase Some Weekly
Don't forget about the WIGs!
MWorld993@reddit
😂 Yeah, can’t forget about the WIGs!
AmoebaMan@reddit
It seems like a lot of people are weirdly fixing on the bridge-to-bridge comms in this scenario.
Bridge-to-bridge comms have absolutely no legal bearing on maritime collisions in international waters, which anybody captaining a ship in international waters should know. You cannot legally arrange passage contrary to the COLREGS.
Navigate IAW the damn rules. They're pretty clear. Don't be the driver who stops at a green light to wave on somebody waiting to make a left turn. It makes everybody less safe.
Blue_foot@reddit (OP)
If you’re trying to cross a ship when you’re going 15 knots and they’re going 12ish you better make damn sure you will cross.
The ship can’t stop. They can barely turn.
AmoebaMan@reddit
I also agree with this.
J4pes@reddit
That’s some pedestrian-walking-into-a-crosswalk-looking-at-cars-about-to-run-them-over levels of stupid
LordGothington@reddit
It's more like making eye contact with a driver and they give you the nod to cross, but then they change their mind and decide to run you over.
J4pes@reddit
Yeah maybe you are ok with stepping in front of a monster truck after seeing a nod but before they stopped. Protec yoself before you wreck yoself
fuckin_atodaso@reddit
Frankly, I never once even considered asking a commercial cargo ship to give way.
pass_nthru@reddit
i thought right-of -way rules were based on who can turn fastest…big ol freighter ain’t turning for shit do your starboard tack means less than than nothing
AmoebaMan@reddit
The rules are not even slightly based on that, though in this case Rule 10 states that the sailboat had the ultimate responsibility not to impede the freighter.
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/navigation-rules-amalgamated#rule10
LordGothington@reddit
Close! It says that fishing vessels may not impede the passage of any vessel following the traffic lane.
But sailboats are only prohibited for impeding the safe passage of a power driven vessel in the traffic lane.
If the PDV could safely alter course then I believe the sailboat was still the standon vessel because they were not preventing the PDV from making safe passage.
Not that it did them any good.
MissingGravitas@reddit
Nope. Unfortunately most people aren't familiar with the Rules, only a few "rules of thumb", and that leads to trouble outside of those general cases.
Things like turning ability are little different from dealing with an 18-wheeler on the motorway; it simply means you need to allow much more space, but basic rules like stopping for red lights still apply to all vehicles.
AmoebaMan@reddit
It's also contrary to the RoR.
SpinnakerLad@reddit
It's certainly done around the English channel and north sea, radio a vessel to tell them you're there and ask them to adjust course if you're worried about collision and they are the give way vessel. I've done it myself and generally they will respond and alter course.
Ultimately whoever's on watch is likely quite bored, a small course correction gives them something to do so they're happy to oblige!
dolampochki@reddit
Not this one. This guy dug in and insisted that the sailboat was the give way vessel. I guess he won.
Freedom-For-Ever@reddit
Agreed...
I always head to pass the stern of a commercial vessel...
Original_Dood@reddit
It's a different vibe in and around the English channel. There's so much marine traffic that there's constant radio chatter about avoiding collision. It was wild to experience as an American.
Source: just did the Fastnet Race
curious-chineur@reddit
Agreed.
If we talk about big cargo ship / container, they sometime arrive in port with a dead whale across the bow or the mast and a fragment of sail on the anchor.
KenEarlysHonda50@reddit
The law of tonnage is real.
1nzguy@reddit
And tonnage doesn’t stop on a dim ..
CaptainMcSmoky@reddit
I heard someone ask people to stay out of their way while crossing the Gibraltar strait! Once he'd confirmed he was in a 20m yacht, there was laughter down the radio.
infield_fly_rule@reddit
Isn’t that 10j? Power boat has right of way in a traffic separation scheme.
LordGothington@reddit
Close. The sailboat can not impede the safe passage of the power driven vessel. If the PDV can safely change course then the sailboat is the stand-on vessel.
https://future-seafarer.com/important-explaination/
The article says that the commercial vessel initially agreed to change course, suggesting it was possible.
markwesti@reddit
The commercial ship didn't alter course ? Well obviously the Captain doesn't know that racing sailboats own the ocean during a race .
dolampochki@reddit
Read the article
markwesti@reddit
Right I didn't read the article , just looked at the picture and read the head line . I have been a cruising sailor for over 30 yrs . As you can tell some sailboat racers are not my favorite people . I have witnessed a few times what that picture looks like . I have some sailboat racer friends , most are OK some not so much .
dolampochki@reddit
I would suggest working on being more accepting and less prejudice. Some of the best and most rewarding sailing I’ve done was when I have raced. I have met great people and not so great. There are bad apples everywhere, including the cruising scene, which I gravitate towards, but you just learn to navigate around them, just like most things in life.
markwesti@reddit
I seem to have struck a nerve with you .
dolampochki@reddit
Nah
ppitm@reddit
Any sailing yacht can turn up into the wind and stop on a dime if it wants to. A cargo ship would need half a mile to do that at the very least. Choices were made.
Pattern_Is_Movement@reddit
Read the article
AmoebaMan@reddit
My favorite part of the article was this:
Brother...they crossed the TSS on a collision course with a merchant. Ipso facto, they did not do everything right.
They're technically correct about the angle. However, they're also missing this pretty huge part of the rule a few bullets down:
MissingGravitas@reddit
To make things more interesting, here's where I think it took place based on the race tracking (i.e. the point where the boat suddenly left the expected track and started doing circles): https://i.imgur.com/I28kACT.jpeg
So, not ideal, and really the race organizers should have allowed a greater buffer zone around the TSS as suggested by 10(f) and (h).
AmoebaMan@reddit
Yeah. I think it's an interesting case where both parties were clearly jacked up.
Sailboat is jacked up for entering the terminus of a TSS on a collision course with a conforming merchant.
Merchant is jacked up for all of his BtB comms, and not calling a mayday for the sailboat he sunk.
One of them is jacked up for not yielding, not sure legally which one it will wind up being based on the geography.
The other is jacked up for not maneuvering in extremis per 17b.
Intelligent_Seat3680@reddit
Hmm. Maybe cargo ships shouldn’t say that they will give way, and then decide that a sailing vessel isn’t a sailing vessel, and not give way.
What do you think of that choice?
AmoebaMan@reddit
Bridge-to-bridge comms have absolutely no legal bearing on maritime collisions in international waters, which anybody captaining a ship in international waters should know.
You cannot legally arrange passage contrary to the COLREGS.
ppitm@reddit
I'm not saying the cargo ship was in the right, just that the sailboat made a clear choice to close their eyes and slam right into it anyway.
dolampochki@reddit
He didn’t need to stop, he needed to adjust course.
ppitm@reddit
Which is a lot easier than stopping. Point being that avoiding the collision was possible up until the very last second.
Salt-y@reddit
At least a mile using a crash stop, probably more like 2 or 3.
woodworkingguy1@reddit
When sailing offshore, if we saw a ship and it looked close based on sight and AIS data, we would call them up on the radio to make sure they saw us and we coordinate on what they wanted.
Intelligent_Seat3680@reddit
Cool. You should read the article. The commercial vessel indicated they would give way.
AmoebaMan@reddit
Bridge-to-bridge comms have absolutely no legal bearing on maritime collisions in international waters, which anybody captaining a ship in international waters should know.
You cannot legally arrange passage contrary to the COLREGS.
dolampochki@reddit
That’s what they did. It didn’t go well.
millijuna@reddit
Even in the inshore waters of the Salish Sea, I’ve had deep seas contact me directly over VHF to coordinate, or at the very least ensure I’m aware of their presence and intentions. One of the many reasons I carry an AIS transponder.
permalink_child@reddit
Nowhere in this article did the sailing vessel rely on the cargo ship was “giving way”.
The sailing vessel called the cargo to inform them that “told them that, on the AIS, sailing vessel were crossing in front of the cargo and he wanted to be sure that the cargo had seen us. And the guy answered, ‘Okay, I move my course’.”
Sailboat was crossing in front of cargo regardless of what cargo was doing and simply wanted confirmation that they were seen.
AmoebaMan@reddit
In point of fact, the sailboat was on a collision course with the cargo.
dolampochki@reddit
Yes, then cargo changed his mind at the last minute.
hedonism_bender@reddit
That’s why I follow the mantra “the bigger they are, the righter they are.”
Intelligent_Seat3680@reddit
So if a giant commercial vessel tells you they will give way, do you believe them?
AmoebaMan@reddit
Bridge-to-bridge comms have absolutely no legal bearing on maritime collisions in international waters, which anybody captaining a ship in international waters should know.
You cannot legally arrange passage contrary to the COLREGS.
No_Pain5736@reddit
Here lies the body of Johnny O'Day Who died Preserving His Right of Way.
He was Right, Dead Right, as he sailed along But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong"
Intelligent_Seat3680@reddit
So if I’m on the radio, and another vessel says that they will give way, and they don’t, I’m in the wrong, and should have assumed that they are lying?
No_Pain5736@reddit
Yup
SVAuspicious@reddit
I have never, not once, in 200k nm offshore under command talked to a commercial ship and had them do anything other than what we discussed.
There is no substitute for communication.
Also in my experience, race crews--speaking as someone with forty years experience racing--are a PITA and even the pros do not communicate well. I read the Yachting World article and I doubt the veracity of the racers.
There is good reason most NOR and SI say that any interference with commercial traffic is grounds for being disqualified. If Class 40 doesn't have that rule they should. It's not because commercial traffic isn't professional. It's because many if not most racers are AHs. Clear enough?
I have a bunch of very positive stories engaging with commercial traffic. When I've been racing I end up on the radio more often than not because I know what to say and how to say it in order to communicate effectively. This stuff isn't hard but it is structured. Being entitled does not contribute to communication.
It's sad the sailboat got crunched but my bet is that when things settle out in court, the bulk of responsibility will be assessed on the sailboat. We'll see.
Not impressed with two life rafts not deploying correctly.
BigEnd3@reddit
In the commercial world there is a saying "You can be dead right, and still dead."
mike8111@reddit
As a fractional boat owner, I'd kill to own a whole half a boat.
ISOtrails@reddit
If they’re making money they have the right of way
dolampochki@reddit
That doesn’t have to do with anything. COLREGS are there for a reason and it doesn’t mention money making in it, as far as I remember.
ISOtrails@reddit
You’re right- it’s not in the colregs as making money - I was taught it that way because when people say “if they’re making money they have right of way” not because commercial = automatic right of way, but because a ship that’s making money is usually huge, constrained, and unable to dodge you. If you don’t give way, physics wins — and you lose half a boat, like in this case.
The rules don’t care if a vessel is commercial or recreational. What matters is the vessel’s ability to maneuver. Rule 18 sets the hierarchy: 1. Vessel not under command 2. Vessel restricted in ability to maneuver (dredging, cable laying, etc.) 3. Vessel constrained by draft 4. Vessel engaged in fishing (gear that restricts movement, not a rod and reel) 5. Sailing vessel 6. Power-driven vessel
A 40’ racing sailboat blasting along at 15 knots is still just a “sailing vessel.” A container ship in the Channel is a “power-driven vessel constrained by draft” in a narrow, busy waterway. In practice, that ship cannot alter course quickly or safely — so even if the sailboat is technically stand-on, COLREGs also say you can’t “insist on your rights” if it risks collision.
dolampochki@reddit
Correct. Except, the cargo ship wasn’t in the channel. They have arranged for the cargo ship to change course, then the cargo ship decided to change their mind.
ruxing@reddit
A commercial vessel can't turn like you can
miFFhoe@reddit
And you can’t read
8thSt@reddit
I always found the “light section” of the captains exam funny. I don’t need to identify that it a 50ft boat towing a 100ft barge. My general rule is if it has more lights than me it is bigger, and I get the hell out of the way regardless of the colregs.
ErieSpirit@reddit
Certainly altering course early and significantly such that there is no longer a stand on/ give way situation is a very viable alternative. It doesn't hurt though to radio the other vessel to make sure they see you and understand each other's intentions. The other vessel may have a planned course change coming up that would nullify your course change, or they see you and are altering course to avoid you causing a collision potential with your course change. That is why the COLREGS require the stand on vessel to hold course and speed, at least up to a point where it is apparent that the give way vessel either can't or won't alter course.
As far as lights on a tow, they don't identify the length of the vessels involved, but rather there is a tow going on, and the length of the tow. You really need to know those lights or shapes. If you are going to alter course to say dip a tow, you need to know it's length so you can dip it without being clothes lined. Keep in mind a barge being towed only has a stern light, so not easy to see at night.
Imaloserbabys@reddit
The less maneuverable vessel has right away. A cargo ship has right away over a sailboat. Cargo ships can’t stop easily and they can’t turn easily. The sailboat crew should’ve known better.
unlimitedbuttholes@reddit
to be honest, I was usually doing paperwork once we got out of the channel. stay out of the way at all times, not just channels.
chicknsnotavegetabl@reddit
This is the cyclist of the sea. Just because you think you should have right of way doesn't mean it will pan out in your favour.
dolampochki@reddit
Don’t bring a motorcycle to a car fight. Don’t bring a sailboat to a container ship fight.
happycat01@reddit
First time I realized this I was mid practice race in an opti. As I approached the freighters path I pulled my flag and yelled protest only to realize the captain probably couldn't even see me so I tacked and ate some bad wind.
mifter123@reddit
The "Gross Tonnage" rule of right of way strikes again.
n0exit@reddit
Kind of presumptuous of them to think they would give way. Especially given the vague and contradictory radio messages. In a traffic separation scheme, commercial vessels are stand on and non-commercial vessels are give way.
millijuna@reddit
From what I understand from reading articles about this, the skipper of the sailboat had made contact over VHF with the commercial vessel, and the commercial vessel had agreed to deviate. But then decided not to.
The VDR from the commercial vessel will clear this up pretty darned quick.
bbauer1973@reddit
Rule 2. Doesn't matter if the commercial vessel should or could have given way. Rule 2 means don't crash or its your fault too.
sailonswells@reddit
Always defer to the right of tonnage.
AutomaticPenalty1@reddit
"We're racing!!!"
lola92661@reddit
As I was told as a kid, “Big boat Rule”. Also a lot of those small sailboats barely show up on radar, even with a radar reflector.
MissingGravitas@reddit
A few pointers for newcomers...
I believe this was in heavy fog, so sail vs power and all that bit doesn't apply; you apply Rule 19 intead.
From a quick double-check, this was outside of a TSS, so Rule 10 doesn't apply either.
When there's risk of collision, it's required to closely monitor the vessels until they are safely past. (Just as it's required to keep a lookout to detect such a situation in the first place.) Neglecting this would have been the main sin of the sailing vessel.
Note: based on the radio comms, I expect criminal charges for the container ship captain.
elprophet@reddit
This was night, not fog. Full lights visibility for the entirety of the situation, as reported by the responding vessel (another racer who adjusted course). It was in a TSS. Maybe you're thinking of another event?
MissingGravitas@reddit
Same event, but you're right! I picked up the fog from one of the news stories: "Mais le cargo ne déviait pas. Cédric de Kervenoaël (son co-skipper) a repris la VHF pour relancer le contact, pendant que je faisais des allers-retours entre la barre et l’écran du cockpit, dans un épais brouillard et une mer agitée." (source) (There was also mention of the helicopted being delayed also due to fog.)
Checking again the tracks of the boats, they pass to the west of the Ushant TSS. (The TSS had been marked as prohibited areas in the Sailing Instructions for the rage.)
However! The course did pass close to the TSS, which comes close to a recent case the English Supreme Court considered regarding a container ship exiting a narrow channel and another on a crossing course. That the dispute reached that far indicates some disagreement on the question of whether Rule 10 would still apply.
Sailing_Student@reddit
Aren't ships below 20m LOA supposed to not obstruct the path of bigger ships anyway?
MissingGravitas@reddit
Only in narrow channels or TSS lanes.
Sailing_Student@reddit
Ah yes, I recall. My sailing area mostly features these 😄
Motor-Marsupial8199@reddit
Yeah, if a vessel is big enough to destroy my vessel, I consider myself to be the give way vessel. Those big commercial vessels have huge turning radii, answer helm & power changes slowly, and often just don’t care.
TradeApe@reddit
Especially offshore, I tend to give way if it's bigger than me even if the rules don't require me to do so. In my experience larger vessels kinda expect me to do that and I don't want to find out who blinks first if I don't have to :D
bobber18@reddit
At least the front didn’t fall off. Just the back.
jaypese@reddit
Crossed the Straits of Gibraltar from S to N in fog in a 40ft yacht under motor. We were monitoring out AIS / radar and adjusting speed to allow ships on our starboard to pass well ahead of us. From 10 miles out we could see 200m ships on our starboard adjusting speed and course by a couple of knots/degrees to keep our CPA above 0.6m. RYA instructor onboard advised us to maintain a steady heading and speed so our course was predictable to ships to stbd. The plan was to take evasive action. If CPA went below .5m, but this didn’t happen.
Sawyer2025@reddit
But Captain Ron said they would move ?????
MissingGravitas@reddit
Ah, this one. Been a little while since I checked the details, but my first thought was that this was a case where both parties should have been assigned greater than 50% fault.