Framework is now selling the first gaming laptop that lets you easily upgrade its GPU — with Nvidia’s blessing

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mach1alfa@reddit

Wow I wonder how did they get nvidia to agree to anything like that

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Reggitor360@reddit

Probably an agreement to not allow any AMD GPUs, or when allowing AMD GPUs, only low end/power limited to not perform well.

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shugthedug3@reddit

Well AMD don't even have a GPU to offer so I doubt that, there's no competition on mobile.

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ParthProLegend@reddit

Bruh is living in stone age. 9070 XT is the best band for buck for FPS per dollar.

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troglo-dyke@reddit

What do you mean? Framework currently have an AMD GPU that fits in this slot, the existing GPUs you can purchase from framework were AMD

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Raikaru@reddit

Was a single one of them a 9000 series? Cause they don’t exist

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You and everyone else that replied to the top comment didn't read the article apparently. nVidia saw their previous sales numbers and jumped on board, simple as that. No favors, no special deals. The AMD and nVidia GPUs even use the same expansion and can be swapped on the same laptop. They are revamping the 7700S to continue selling it and lowering its price too.

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troglo-dyke@reddit

They also have an AMD GPU that they sell.

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Reggitor360@reddit

An older one, yes.

But the question remains to be seen if we ever see one again.

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Ste_XD@reddit

I was thinking this too. The announcement seemed to touch on this but Nirav was tip toeing on the line of saying outloud what was happening behind the scenes.

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Candid_Report955@reddit

That wouldn't be legal to do and companies lay off or fire too many employees to keep a secret about what they're doing that may be illegal

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Reggitor360@reddit

Intel and Nvidia still do these shady dealings, you know that Intel for example got scott off free basically for paying OEMs to not use AMD? :D

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luuuuuku@reddit

Why? What makes you think NVIDIA would have an issue with that?

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twistedintrospection@reddit

NVIDIA is notoriously controlling when it comes to card design and innovation.

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luuuuuku@reddit

So, what? Why would NVIDIA not allow that?

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twistedintrospection@reddit

Because they don't, there isn't a good reason its just something they traditionally haven't allowed, no good reason. they've just been really controlling.

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mistaquantalis@reddit

Since Nvidia makes GPU’s specifically and not entire laptops it’s probably no skin off there nose.

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twistedintrospection@reddit

The first gen was a partnership with AMD, it did well enough that NVIDIA felt they were going to lose out on a potential paradigm shift in high end portable computing. Add the fact that the design legwork is almost entirely out of their hands and off their budget sheet and it's an easy win for them.

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DNosnibor@reddit

Seems good for NVIDIA. They only make the GPUs, not the rest of the stuff in the laptop. An option to upgrade the GPU will mean for each laptop purchase, on average people will purchase more than 1 GPU. (Probably like 1.2 instead of 1; I'm not saying everyone is going to upgrade their GPU).

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DerpSenpai@reddit

Nvidia is launching their first Laptop chip in the next 6 months

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tigger994@reddit

Normal laptop or for AI people?

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SoleSurvivur01@reddit

For AI people there’s framework desktop

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DerpSenpai@reddit

Normal people but it's going to be expensive

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gahlo@reddit

Yeah, but it's ARM, so we'll see how that works out.

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DerpSenpai@reddit

Just seen a new test of Windows on ARM for games and now the onlt issue with the X Elite is the GPU drivers sucking

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kot-sie-stresuje@reddit

Despite partnership with MS gpu drivers can be problem even on those Snapdragosn.

There is also no nvidia gpu drivers for Windows on ARM. However that will not stop Framework as the are not windows depended. Those RISC-V boards don't run windows, as there is no windows on this architecture, but it still is not that big of a problem.

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DerpSenpai@reddit

Yeah because Nvidia hasn't launched anything yet. When they do, the drivers will be there for ARM

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kot-sie-stresuje@reddit

That is not a valid argument. The GPU's are already on a market for many years. Some prebuilds with ARM CPU and Nvidia GPU are already being sold for more then a year. Like system 76 ones. There is a demand on market for that driver.

The only thing not launched yet in nvidia CPU.

Therefore I am not so sure that nvidia will have full windows arm drivers, since graphic drivers are not released yet. Maybe this is a part of Qualcomm embargo/exclusivity. Or simply it is way harder to create this kind of driver. With MS you newer know. AMD and Intel also dosen't have graphic driver for ARM Windows, but those are x86 CPU manufactures unlike nvidia so have other priorities.

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DerpSenpai@reddit

The drivers exist on Linux, just don't exist on Windows because there isn't anything that could officially use it till this September. The X Elite Gen 2 will support external GPUs

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kot-sie-stresuje@reddit

I am not talking about linux drivers. Bringing linux drivers here shows lack of consequence in your definition of official use. That indicates that there is also no reason to release linux driver like there is no official use for that. Conditions are the same for hardware on market like those system76. But gpu drivers for linux on arm exist for long time now. There is no nvidia gpu driver for windows on arm. Hardware like this need a corresponding driver. Still Windows have majority of shares on the market.

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DerpSenpai@reddit

But there is ARM Linux Products using Nvidia GPUs, there isn't for Windows because it was locked down to Qualcomm until recently

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gahlo@reddit

I'd love to see a link for this.

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DerpSenpai@reddit

https://youtu.be/-kower3bBnM?si=Kv8tUFL9LxI-zyfK

Games vs last year that werent running are now running with the performance the iGPU allows

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Strazdas1@reddit

is translation still >10% performance loss? Windows at least fixed the AVX512 issues it had then Qualcomm ones lunched.

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tigger994@reddit

Linux also seems to be working on these now.

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beefsack@reddit

People sleeping on ARM, it looks like it's Valve's ace up their sleeve for future SteamOS devices too.

There are translation layers rapidly being developed (think Wine/Proton but for x86-to-ARM) some of which are getting contributions directly from Valve.

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Plank_With_A_Nail_In@reddit

The problem is these ARM chips are just as expensive as Intel/AMD, people wanted ARM as competition in order to lower prices but thats not happening.

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cheapcheap1@reddit

Arms chips still need the same silicon and similar engineering to deliver comparable performance, so I don't really see the reason to expect huge new players to enter the market because of it.

But arms chips still promise better performance per watt in lots of applications. So there is every reason to be happy about this as a consumer.

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gahlo@reddit

I'm not saying it can't or won't, I'm just saying I need to see it.

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ZincPenny@reddit

Arm isn’t very good or useful to me.

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Romanist10@reddit

How often do you see Radeon laptops? Seems like the laptop market is 99% Nvidia

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azenpunk@reddit

I'm not real familiar with laptops, but i know a bunch of Asus laptops use Radeon

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The_Countess@reddit

Framework had laptops with upgradable GPUs from AMD for well over a year.

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Romanist10@reddit

I'm talking about market share. 2.5 framework laptops won't change if

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Successful-Royal-424@reddit

y tho

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Strazdas1@reddit

because AMD does not support laptop OEMs. You have to work for them and give them designs and always have stock available. thats what Intel does. AMD seems to only do that with Lenovo and from what i understand Lenovo does most of the heavy lifting, which is unusual dynamic here.

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konsoru-paysan@reddit

Lot of pro consumer moves are good for any company however that involves losing opportunities to price gauge your customers with inconveniencey and planned obsolescence so companies avoid doing so. Hence why I think it's impressive they got nvidia of all people to agree to this but I'm expecting an inconvenient catch

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OliveBranchMLP@reddit

i mean... nvidia gets to sell more GPUs... so

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Strazdas1@reddit

Nvidia does incur certain costs in having to make sure their laptop GPUs work with the sockets used as well as drivers being able to support all possible configurations for laptops.

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Killmeplsok@reddit

Not exactly, driver yes, socket no. Nvidia has experience making sure GPU works across different CPU arch for years (their laptop vs desktop gpu don't differ that much), there may be some over head but I doubt it's a lot.

Socket on the other hand is not something they have to worry about, that is Framework's job, nvidia is only selling the chip, not the module, this is no difference compared to what Framework has to do for their CPUs, less work even, I'd argue, since they already have the module connectivity solved.

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berryer@reddit

It depends on whether you upgrade your GPU as frequently as your CPU. I'm still rocking a GTX770 in my desktop, and before that I had an ATI card until it got annoying to find an AGP port.

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Strazdas1@reddit

most people upgrade GPU more often than CPU.

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OliveBranchMLP@reddit

...sure? but i'm not comparing it to upgrading your CPU in a desktop. i'm comparing it to upgrading an entire laptop.

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FinalBase7@reddit

Plus since it's sold standalone they don't need to care as much for the margins of laptop makers, not that they care much about them but they can definitely earn more per unit this way.

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OwlProper1145@reddit

Nvidia likes selling GPUs and this is a new way for them to sell GPUs.

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ZincPenny@reddit

It’s a old way brought back 12 years later

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mach1alfa@reddit

Nvidia is also notorious for being controlling over the design of “partner” cards, so I am surprised that they agreed to let framework sell the laptop 5070 in that form factor

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glizzytwister@reddit

This is because manufacturers were making terrible cards in the 00s. Most 3rd party MX series cards were worse than their reference cards because of manufacturers cutting corners. BFG was notorious for this. The MX440 was probably the best selling card at the time, and performance varied wildly.

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Strazdas1@reddit

having personally released the magic smoke out of a mx440, i can confirm it was a lottery of what you are getting.

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shugthedug3@reddit

Mobile has been more of a grey area of them, for a long time they didn't restrict the sale of GPUs at all leading to a lot of grey market mobile chips being used on desktop cards, the Chinese 'frankenstein' GPUs.

They also let manufacturers have a lot of freedom when developing systems containing a mobile Nvidia GPU, that's why you see such huge variances in power limits.

I think they have tightened up the supply ever since 40 series they still seem to give a lot more freedom to laptop manufacturers than desktop AIB card partners.

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Deep90@reddit

Nvidia has a lot more control over this than with their partner cards.

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shugthedug3@reddit

Nvidia have shown some flexibility on this, they offered up the 4060M to various mini-PC makers etc to implement in MXM-like configurations.

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MrDunkingDeutschman@reddit

Margins on these mobile GPUs are absolutely monstrous so not surprising they'd gladly sell more of them.

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diychitect@reddit

Yeah but that makes it even more baffling because they stopped supporting mxm mobile cards

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ZincPenny@reddit

MXM cards were good back in the day

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kot-sie-stresuje@reddit

I would not be surprised when framework will be a first laptop with nvidia arm cpu. They already did risc-v cpu boards, not not arm so far.

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Plank_With_A_Nail_In@reddit

I had a dell laptop with an upgradable GPU 10 years ago.

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glizzytwister@reddit

"Hey, Nvidia, can we make a goofy little proprietary card that probably won't exist as a form factor in 10 years?

"Ok, whatever"

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Successful-Royal-424@reddit

5 tops

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MrMunday@reddit

Why does it matter? They’ll sell a GPU either way.

If I can upgrade the GPU without buying a full laptop means cheaper to upgrade the GPU, easier for nvidia to sell more and charge more.

It’s an absolute win

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Slabbed1738@reddit

Probably because it pushes AMD out

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Thebandroid@reddit

A Guarantee that all their laptops will ship with nvidia gpus

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N2-Ainz@reddit

Because they don't lose any money.

They simply sell GPU's to other manufacturers, what they do with it is usually irrelevant to NVIDIA because they made their sale

Same goes with Framework. NVIDIA sells them the GPU and the sale is done for them, if you can just buy a whole new laptop or just a new GPU is basically irrelevant to them, as they still make a sale on the GPU

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omegafivethreefive@reddit

Shielding from anti-trust?

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BurnoutEyes@reddit

Uhh, the Dell Inspiron 7800 and XPS Gen 2 had upgradable video cards back in ~2006.

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viperabyss@reddit

Operative word here is "easily".

MXM cards weren't "easily upgradeable".

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Terrh@reddit

Depends on the model at least?

Some it's certainly no harder than a desktop GPU. Unscrew a panel, undo the card, pop the new card in, put the panel back on, done.

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viperabyss@reddit

...it isn't. Even the "same" MXM form factor between OEMs aren't compatible with each other, especially when some of them have different mounting screw holes.

There are more than that too

The first hurdle is the most obvious, and that is the mechanical footprint. The MXM standard defines two possible card shapes, A variant or B variant, including things like heatsink and retention screw hole layout, and even component height for heatsink compatibility purposes. Many laptop manufacturers ignore these rules, producing cards of wacky shapes, or worse, shapes that almost match but are slightly incompatible in a subtle but severe way.

Then, there’s the VBIOS and driver problems. Many MXM cards have an onboard BIOS chip, whereas other cards rely on the laptop to feed them their BIOS during boot. If your card is of the latter type, you might need to add a UEFI module or hack the code. Alternatively, some cards ship with unpopulated flash chip footprints or unflashed chips on them, so you can give a BIOS to your card with a bit of soldering and flashing, as long as you can find an image that works.

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Terrh@reddit

That's kinda like saying PCI express isn't a standard because there's two different slot lengths and 4 generations of slots, many cards aren't totally compliant, and they aren't all compatible.

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Indolent_Bard@reddit

yeah, but a pcie gpu will work on EVERY motherboard of that size, mxm didn't do that so it flopped.

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Strazdas1@reddit

and yet any card with newer generation will work in older generation PCIE ports, just at limited bandwidth.

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viperabyss@reddit

I never said MXM wasn't a standard. I'm showing you that despite it being a "standard", sufficient variation exists that MXM cards are often not compatible between different OEMs.

That's why MXM weren't "easily upgradeable".

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Terrh@reddit

sufficient variation exists that MXM cards are often not compatible between different OEMs.

That's why MXM weren't "easily upgradeable".

Ok, but in that case, this isn't "easily upgradeable" either since you can't use a card from any other OEM, Framework is the only company to have made any.

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viperabyss@reddit

How is this not "easily upgradeable"? Because there's only one OEM offering this form factor, people won't get confused about where they need to buy it from.

Also unlike the MXM where you have to open the case, this GPU expansion is snap on. Can't get more easier than this.

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cyborgedbacon@reddit

Thankfully the MXM cards between Sager, and Dell/Alienware were interchangeable. Was able to throw in a 970 into my Alienware from 2012, just had to change the driver ID in the Nvidia installer to make it work.....miss the days of laptops being upgrade-able.

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BurnoutEyes@reddit

Other than having to remove the motherboard to access the bottom, they were plug and play.

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viperabyss@reddit

...it isn't. Even the "same" MXM form factor between OEMs aren't compatible with each other, especially when some of them have different mounting screw holes.

There are more than that too

The first hurdle is the most obvious, and that is the mechanical footprint. The MXM standard defines two possible card shapes, A variant or B variant, including things like heatsink and retention screw hole layout, and even component height for heatsink compatibility purposes. Many laptop manufacturers ignore these rules, producing cards of wacky shapes, or worse, shapes that almost match but are slightly incompatible in a subtle but severe way.

Then, there’s the VBIOS and driver problems. Many MXM cards have an onboard BIOS chip, whereas other cards rely on the laptop to feed them their BIOS during boot. If your card is of the latter type, you might need to add a UEFI module or hack the code. Alternatively, some cards ship with unpopulated flash chip footprints or unflashed chips on them, so you can give a BIOS to your card with a bit of soldering and flashing, as long as you can find an image that works.

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Plank_With_A_Nail_In@reddit

We only have one OEM using this design so framework has the same problem potentially.

Buying the correct module isn't that big of a challenge.

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BurnoutEyes@reddit

Many laptop manufacturers ignore these rules, producing cards of wacky shapes, or worse, shapes that almost match but are slightly incompatible in a subtle but severe way.

Yeah, there's no stopping bad OEMs. Still, GPU upgrades in my Inspiron 9400 were painless swaps.

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viperabyss@reddit

Not discounting your experience, but just saying the process really wasn't easy as people make it out to be.

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cosine83@reddit

High-end, bespoke-ish brands have hand upgradeable cards off and on since then, as well. I know Sager had at least one model that did.

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Nihilistic_Mystics@reddit

I also had an MSI laptop a good while back that had a GPU bay large enough to swap to anything you wanted, and the cooling had a lot of play so you could fit it on just about anything. I wanna say I had a GTX 570 in it at the time. The laptop model was meant as a custom prebuilt laptop.

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lowlymarine@reddit

Exactly, I’ve heard this song and dance several times already. I’ll hold my excitement until nVidia actually delivers more than a couple of compatible generations in this form factor.

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Ar0ndight@reddit

Such a shame I really don't like the chassis. Looks so dated to me. And with a machine you're buying specifically because you expect to keep it for many years, disliking the way it looks from day 1 instantly disqualifies it for me.

But outside of that I do really like the idea, and hope there are enough people liking it to keep it going. The bigger framework gets the more they'll be able to keep those updates coming on time, and ideally the more economies of scale might help them get pricings to be more competitive.

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Indolent_Bard@reddit

why does it look dated? because it isn't detrimentally thin?

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SirMaster@reddit

But is it worth it?

It's like $2500 with a 5070 when you can get a gaming laptop with a 5070 for half that from one of the gaming laptop brands.

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Indolent_Bard@reddit

"Then in a few years you could get a new laptop" NO, reduce, reuse, recycle, it's cheaper but defeats the whole purpose of a sustainable laptop and it's WORSE FOR THE PLANET!

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DerpSenpai@reddit

Heck buying a thunderbolt 5 or Occulink Laptop looks to be much better than this. They should have included occulink in their normal bay area. Buying a 5060 ti for 700$ is crazy

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Plank_With_A_Nail_In@reddit

The case and keyboard have always worn out before the components on my laptops. At upgrade time you end up having to replace all the components including the case and keyboard so its more expensive upgrading than just buying a new laptop, the old components end up in landfill just the same so its not environmentally friendly (other than using up more money so you can't buy anything else).

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shugthedug3@reddit

Frameworks have always been expensive and apparently they sold enough of the 16 model already to justify this new version.

It's not going to be for everyone, that's for sure. Expensive for the performance it offers and the whole modular aspect isn't worth it for most people.

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pelrun@reddit

Plenty of other laptops in the market for the normies. And "expensive for the performance" isn't that high a bar either - just look at Apple.

If you want what Framework is selling, there is no comparable alternative at any price.

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konsoru-paysan@reddit

Starting from which gpus can we start swapping with?

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sitefall@reddit

They have a 5070 (which I'm pretty sure is probably the mobile version, so consider it an 8gb 5060ti), and a Radeon RX 7700S, for $700 and $300.

The GPU basically docks into the top taking up the whole width of the laptop, kind of like how old 90's laptops docked to docking stations, the 5070 will add some length to the laptop above the screen hinge.

Base price for 500gb nvme, 5070 gpu is $2500 + tax.

Really kind of seems pointless to me. These things are just so expensive that their upgradability (however limited) is kind of pointless.

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MXC_Vic_Romano@reddit

Love the idea, but yeah, they're lifestyle products.

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Indolent_Bard@reddit

having a product that lasts being labeled as a lifestyle product is the dystopian shit you read about and dismiss as impossible to happen irl. Being able to actually buy a battery for your laptop in 3 years or a keyboard or a screen isn't a lifestyle thing.

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Indolent_Bard@reddit

and then when that more powerful laptop needs a new battery, screen, hinge or keyboard, you're fucked. With Framework, you can actually buy those parts, nobody else sells the screen on its own without the assembly included. This is why framework is better, it's more expensive but it's a LASTING investment.

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theholylancer@reddit

Yep, the fact that they didnt do a dock that connected to the x16 pcie connection and just let us slap 5090s into it is disappointing

like it can mean if you want a portable version it can be a mobile one with that bulge, but an igpu base with a proper connector of sorts that lets you go to a pcie dealie would have an actual unique selling point

not mxm try 2 which also had issues with limited selection and noncompetitive prices

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65726973616769747461@reddit

They explained this in their youtube channel: they tried to sell a dock, but soon realize that the dock would be too expensive to make sense as a product.

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shugthedug3@reddit

Given it's just PCIe... someone could maybe develop an oculink breakout port if there's genuinely demand for fast eGPUs on these laptops... or they could offer it themselves.

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wankthisway@reddit

Like those external GPU boxes like the Razer Chroma. They had a chance to really make those things work.

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theholylancer@reddit

yep, by not limiting them to just mobile GPU but give us a proper link

have modules like 5070 or w/e, but also allow it to connect to a base with full fat BW and a SFX/L PSU and run w/e you want.

a nice cheap used 3080 that would trunce half of the mobile offerings at a fraction of the cost? go nuts

a 5090 because sure w/e, hey it works

a 5090 FE and have it be actually semi-mobile and good for lan parties or if you move around a lot? great choice.

and come next year, the whole setup dont need no approval from nvidia to drop a 6090 or a used 9060 XT in on the cheap or w/e

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SovietMacguyver@reddit

If you care about reducing E waste, this added cost is an acceptable tradeoff.

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LAwLzaWU1A@reddit

I wouldn't be surprised if this results in more e-waste. My logic is that a lot of people I see buying these talk really eagerly about swapping out parts, which potentially means more consumption, not less.

The best thing to do for the environment would be to not buy new things all the time. Especially not things you don't need (some of the same people talking about these laptops also buy a new GPU and CPU every generation). I just use my computer until it is so slow it no longer serves it purpose, and at that point in time I usually need to upgrade multiple components anyway (because everything had gotten a lot faster). By the time I upgrade my pc once I've seen people upgrade their pc 4-5 times (almost all parts), and all they do is play games.

It feels kind of like if someone into old American muscle cars tried to justify buying a new car because "this one gets slightly better gas milage". I think we all know it's not about the gas milage. It's about being able to have "the best" every generation and buying new shiny things.

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arahman81@reddit

E-waste is from proprietary parts that can't be repurposed, which does not really describe many of the Framework parts.

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LAwLzaWU1A@reddit

Something that could be repurposed but isn't is still e-waste. E-waste is just electronics that are discarded.

Third sentence on Wikipedia:

Used electronics which are destined for refurbishment, reuse, resale, salvage recycling through material recovery, or disposal are also considered e-waste.

A component for let's say a Framework laptop that was swapped out and doesn't get reused is e-waste, even if it in theory could be reused.

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arahman81@reddit

That's on the people, might as well blame desktop PCs with upgradable CPUs/GPUs.

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LAwLzaWU1A@reddit

I am not really trying to blame anyone. I'm just saying that a byproduct of easy upgrades might be that some people end up buying more things than they would have before.

I'm not the one who wrote the quote so I can't really answer for it. I just wanted to point out that your definition which included the "prioritary" and "can't be reused" criteria are not really part of the definition most people use. None of the definitions I looked up on Wikipedia, WHO, UNEP etc included those clauses. Most use defines it as "waste that's electrics", and "waste" is usually defined as "unwanted item" or something along those lines.

If you buy a new component such as the mainboard for your framework laptop and your old mainboard just ends up collecting dust somewhere, not being used, it's e-waste.

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SovietMacguyver@reddit

You are preaching to the choir here. I also practice long upgrade intervals.

However, embracing upgradability does result in less hardware being replaced at any one time. This also apples to broken parts that necessitate replacement. Rather than throwing away an entire board with all of its perfectly functional components, you discard (or sell) a single component.

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LAwLzaWU1A@reddit

Does it really result in less hardware being replaced at a one time though? This would only be true if people upgraded individual components. I feel like having the ability to upgrade individual components, especially to enthusiasts, might actually cause them to upgrade more often than if they had to replace the entire computer.

If you have to replace the entire laptop, you might hold off on upgrading a bit longer because it becomes more costy. If you give people, especially enthusiasts, the choice to replace parts more frequently and easily I feel like it will trigger them to upgrade more often, which will result in more components being made and thrown away.

I am not sure if this is what is actually happening, but judging by how some people I follow on forums talk about how they like upgrading their framework PCs I feel like they have been triggered into buying more laptop hardware than they would have done with a regular laptop.

As for repair, I have always tried to stick to HP's business line as well as Thinkpads and they have typically held up really well and also been easy to repair. Despite all that, I've only had one laptop die on me and it was the mainboard, which was replaced by HP. The thing is that if my laptop had been a Framework laptop I would have had to replace the entire mainboard as well since that's also a single piece. The modularity wouldn't really have mattered in the only instance where I've had to repair a laptop.

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SovietMacguyver@reddit

If youre asking me, then yes, I would upgrade individual components.

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LAwLzaWU1A@reddit

That's exactly what I did with my HP laptop as well. I just replaced the mainboard. My point is that in the only case where I've had to repair a laptop the Framework laptop wasn't really any different from a lot of other laptops (like my HP EliteBook). I still had to replace the entire mainboard which was possible on both. The Framework laptop might have been slightly easier to do it on but I mean, I've had to do it once in 15+ years so it's not that big of a selling point to me.

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arahman81@reddit

And you can use the old main board as a sffpc.

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BoringCabinet@reddit

Hell, I just gave away my previous laptop. Someone will give a good home.

I would love a framework, but the price is too much.

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Strazdas1@reddit

it depends on what happens to old parts. all my old parts ends up in my family machines where they tend to live long past reasonable time. My dads work machine is sporting my old 1070. Great for CAD work apparently. He even found a use for the now really obsolete 7600, still doing somewhing. Upgradability is great.

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luuuuuku@reddit

Why would it reduce e waste? If anything framework probably produces more e waste, both direct and indirect.

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zzzxxx0110@reddit

Also they mentioned in the article it's 100W sustained TDP for the 5070 GPU, and 45W sustained TDP for the CPU.

So still a thin and light gaming laptop level, comparable to for example the Lenovo Legion 7 Slim laptops. But it's definitely a good start.

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arahman81@reddit

Except it being Framework, you can plug in other stuff to the expansion bay too.

Like 2 more m.2 cards

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Few_Plankton_7587@reddit

Its a high-end chassis, with high end support and has an end of life plan. Something very few laptops come with, if any at all.

Framework laptops can be completely taken apart and work inside of a proper desktop case. Each part os reusable and can be fitted to a proper ATX layout

Many laptops are similarly priced and still sell extremely well.

[-]

DecompositionLU@reddit

That's... Not an high end chassis. Just because you can tear it appart doesn't make it high end.

Laptops with a 5070 for this price are Asus Zephyrus line and Razer Blade which are basically Windows Macbooks and their quality are far higher than Framework. And they don't sell that well, at least brand new, they are super expensive and the best way to get one is by sale or get the Year-1 model.

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Few_Plankton_7587@reddit

That's... Not an high end chassis. Just because you can tear it appart doesn't make it high end.

Yeah, I see how you could get confused. But it's a high end chassis because it is made from high end material, you see.

Duh

Laptops with a 5070 for this price are Asus Zephyrus line and Razer Blade which are basically Windows Macbooks and their quality are far higher than Framework

Except they're not higher quality than framework at all.... have you held all 3 in your hands? I have. The Razer blade is close to equivalent, I'd say.

[-]

reddanit@reddit

You could pick up a 5070 laptop with a more powerful CPU for $1500 or less with double the storage and double the ram.

Or pick a laptop with notably faster 5080 and just skip the potential future upgrade. Given recent pace of progress on power limits/efficiency, it's not like we will see much faster laptop GPUs anytime soon.

[-]

imdrzoidberg@reddit

I love the concept but the pricing is just killer. I know it's not Framework's fault since these are low volume high cost things, but for the same price I could get a much faster gaming desktop with way more VRAM and a MacBook Air that I can use to remote into it with.

[-]

greggm2000@reddit

I concur. It’s ridiculous. They are offering a Strix Point APU as well, so that option, at least, makes sense, but the 8GB GPU that’ll more-or-less be pointless for the use case the Framework is intended for, sure doesn’t.

[-]

carnewbie911@reddit

it is always cheaper to sell and buy another laptop.

upgrade GPU comes with the requirement to upgrade PSU and cooling solution. not to mention what the hell are you going to do with the older GPU? because no one else is going to have a framework laptop waiting around to buy your old GPU

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konsoru-paysan@reddit

Fuck I thought it was....I could add in old rtx gpus lol , ah of course times like these is why I wish I started my own cpu and gpu company

[-]

-UndeadBulwark@reddit

Can they please just make a 395 laptop instead?

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tat_tvam_asshole@reddit

I assume because handhelds are on the way, 395 laptops will be too

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MBILC@reddit

Actually, you could upgrade GPU's decades ago in laptops, the problem was the cost of said GPU's were often far too expensive and not worth it when it could be %50 of the cost of your entire laptop..

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PC_is_dead@reddit

Fascinating. But a proprietary GPU form factor instead of the standard MXM seems iffy.

[-]

996forever@reddit

The "standard" MXM you speak of, when do you think was the last time it existed?

[-]

zakats@reddit

Not op, but I'd really prefer to see continuity of an existing standard to allow more perpetual interoperability. If that's not possible for whatever reason, a next next best thing would to be a new industry standard adopted. Laptops are too locked down.

[-]

SmileyBMM@reddit

Making a new standard is a ton of work I don't think Framework has the infrastructure to make happen. Making standards is hard, especially if no other manufacturers really have the will for this standard to exist.

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zakats@reddit

They seem to have established a standard for themselves for their own design ethos, what work would be needed to make it accessible to others?

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SmileyBMM@reddit

They would need to do many things to make it more than an in house standard. They would need to implement a branding system (like what USB, DisplayPort, and Bluetooth have done), a testing system (like IP ratings), and a licensing system. They would need a fair number of staff and capital to make this a usable standard for others to want to use, and they probably have a better use for those resources.

For example the USB-IF has over 200 employees iirc, and although such a new standard would not need quite that many people, they would still need a bunch.

[-]

996forever@reddit

Others would need to want it in the first place.

[-]

ZincPenny@reddit

2014

[-]

J-son11@reddit

Still around, just in industrial machines.

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996forever@reddit

We're talking about laptop MXM dGPUs here so which "industrial machine" laptop does that exist in exactly?

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J-son11@reddit

Sure, there hasn't been a true to standard MXM laptop in recent years, (not counting the Clevo, which don't follow standard MXM) But the MXM standard is still well and alive, which is what I was pointing out. These gpus are also still being retrofitted into older laptops with MXM ports. For example this post is reporting the 4060m works with the old Dell R4. Meanwhile the rest of this thread is also discussing the Dell m4800 (a 12 year old laptop) using a Quadro T1000 (a 4 year old GPU) without issue. https://notebooktalk.net/topic/1258-my-custom-m4800/?do=findComment&comment=57482

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996forever@reddit

And all of that will be bottlenecked by other ancient system components making it a moot point and extremely cost ineffective for the resultant performance offered.

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YeshYyyK@reddit

does this count?

https://www.adlinktech.com/Products/Download.ashx?type=MDownload&isManual=yes&file=1965%5c0131_EGX-MXM-A4500_User_Manual.pdf

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996forever@reddit

That’s the module, one half of the equation. What’s an example of a laptop that can take, and has the modern IO to take full advantage of the Ada gpu?

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PC_is_dead@reddit

When do you? Because it doesn’t take more than a quick google search to find Nvidia 40 series MXM cards. You talk like it’s some ancient dead standard but that’s completely untrue. It’s just fallen out of favour with mainstream manufacturers.

[-]

ILikeFlyingMachines@reddit

MXM is not a standard. There were a hand full of GPUs but not many, and a lot of them not really interchangeable.

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InevitableSherbert36@reddit

How is it not a standard? And 249 GPUs is only a handful?

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ILikeFlyingMachines@reddit

And like 90% are older than 10 years

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PC_is_dead@reddit

That list is not exhaustive. You can find rtx 40 series MXM GPUs with google.

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ZincPenny@reddit

No you can’t

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PC_is_dead@reddit

Really? Because the keywords “4080 MXM” gets me a website selling 40 series MXM GPUs as the first result.

[-]

Terrh@reddit

So because something was last done more than 10 years ago means this new thing is the first?

What?

[-]

exilus92@reddit

the most recent card in that list is a rx580 from 2018.

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shugthedug3@reddit

MXM is a pain, the form factor doesn't really make quick swappable modules possible... maybe with some very clever design but you have to factor in the cooling system as well. At least this hanging-out-the-back design means the heatsink assembly can be entirely separate and contained in the module.

[-]

luuuuuku@reddit

Why do you need quick swappable GPUs? How often do you switch GPUs? Daily?

[-]

shugthedug3@reddit

I'd like a laptop that I could shut down, remove the big, heavy lump from the back and make more portable.

Didn't think that was so radical but apparently it is.

[-]

PC_is_dead@reddit

Cooling was one of the big problems with MXM. A lot of different layouts meant that the heatsink might not fit properly between various MXM card models.

With Framework’s design, it’s unlikely to ever be adopted by the broader market. It’s basically purpose built for this particular model of laptop and only this particular manufacturer will ever make them.

As for removability, I don’t view it as important. For the vast majority of users, they are not going to be taking the GPU out more than maybe once every few months. So it kinda doesn’t matter if it’s removed in 5 minutes or 30 minutes.

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dabocx@reddit

Mxm isn’t really a standard at this point

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imaginary_num6er@reddit

Nvidia and proprietary is the same word

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RegionCertain693@reddit

Just one question, why not a module with a Pcie expansion slot? Aside from power supply, a major obstacle to fully utilising or even having powerful gpus in laptops is heat.

Like in one of those makeshift e-gpu setups where a regular gpu sits on a dock completely outside of the laptop, the heat from the gpu also stays out of the laptop which doesn’t add any more burden on the laptop’s heatsinks/thermal design.

[-]

Stennan@reddit

Hopefully we will see some bigger iGPUs in next gen Zen 6 APUs. 8GB GPUs are not exactly enticing considering the price. I hope they are able to develop some kind of USB 4 or OCCUlink expansion card for external GPUs.

[-]

srona22@reddit

at least 16GB VRAM, right? ... right?

[-]

ZincPenny@reddit

No laptop gpu has that much

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InevitableSherbert36@reddit

Nope. $700 for an 8 GB GPU.

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ProfessionalPrincipa@reddit

Nope. $700 for an 8 GB 5060Ti GPU.

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NinjaOk2970@reddit

Will this cause compatibility issues with Linux?

[-]

ZincPenny@reddit

Yeah it’s nvidia it’s going to have endless issues while AMD just works

[-]

luuuuuku@reddit

Why would it? Will work as well as NVIDIA GPUs do on Linux

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Reggitor360@reddit

Nvidia always does.

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BlueGoliath@reddit

AMD drivers on Linux, famous for just working.

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BoerseunZA@reddit

First? No, we already had them in the early 2010s. You can still find the GPUs on Ebay.

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MairusuPawa@reddit

No one remembers MXM?

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ZincPenny@reddit

MXM died around the 870m era

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ZincPenny@reddit

It’s nothing new gaming laptops had easily upgradeable gpus for years with nvidia and it was a bad idea so they discontinued it. Bringing it back doesn’t mean much.

[-]

ranqr@reddit

"Lol like we're ever gonna make another card that'll fit in there" -nvidia, probably

[-]

luuuuuku@reddit

NVIDIA doesn’t make them, framework does. It’s a proprietary connector that uses a regular mobile GPU in a case that can attach to the laptop. Nothing to do with NVIDIA. As long as NVIDIA makes GPUs with roughly the same requirements in power and connectivity, it can work indefinitely if framework keeps it alive

[-]

frsguy@reddit

Thats my thought but in the end nvidia still makes money if they continue with future gens.

[-]

carnewbie911@reddit

It is just a modular laptop, all their marketing about reducing e-waste is a joke, because when you swap out the main logic board, what do you do with the old logic board? still go to e-waste.

realistically, not many people have that many framework laptop around to recycle/reuse the old logic board.

plus these stuff are expensive!

realistically, if we really want to reduce e-waste, we should all put money into 1 computer manufacture, and make them into 1 standard. having multiple manufacture with multiple standard, it is just adding to the e-waste.

[-]

ClassicPart@reddit

what do you do with the old logic board

Sell it to someone who can use it. You're telling on yourself if your go-to is to just throw it away.

[-]

luuuuuku@reddit

That’s probably not the point. The logic board and the gpu extension are proprietary for framework and only really work on framework systems. By the time you want to upgrade, do you think other framework users will want to upgrade to your logic board? Because of its design, there is hardly a market for that. Yes, you can put it in a small case but then again, you’re better off buying a mini PC with the same specs. When you replace your laptop, there is a huge Market for people buying used laptops, no one said they’re throwing it away.

[-]

renrutal@reddit

Build a HTPC for your living room
Put it into a VESA mount, make you TVs/Monitors smart
Build a NAS
Build a home automation server
Sell it
Give it away to one of your relatives kids
Give it away to someone who can't buy a computer

[-]

carnewbie911@reddit

And I need to do that with a brand new framework laptop, but not the 10 I already have?

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Cm1Xgj4r8Fgr1dfI8Ryv@reddit

They sell a case to convert the 13-inch mainboard for use as a server, media center, mini-pc, etc. I imagine a similar solution will be developed for the 16-inch in due time.

They also released a video showcasing some of the prototypes that didn't work out or are still being worked on, including a dock to convert the graphics module into an eGPU.

[-]

mrblaze1357@reddit

You can reuse the main boards as mini PCs. I wouldn't be surprised if framework comes out with an egpu dock for the old GPU boards.

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CarVac@reddit

They can be used as SBCs. For the 13" model there's a case you can buy. 16" might be harder since it needs external fans.

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pellets@reddit

Just link directly to framework. https://frame.work/laptop16

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Jon_TWR@reddit

Huh, not bad. I wonder how long until there’s an AMD 9000 series option.

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PMARC14@reddit

No RDNA4 mobile design so probably never, hopefully AMD works with them to release a day one RDNA5/UDNA mobile version in 1.5 years or so.

[-]

Stennan@reddit

While FSR 4 requires some specific functions, I hope we can move away from the SOCs having a separate NPU that, so far, has no proven mass market use case. Give us a beefed-up iGPU that can do the NPU workload and also do Raytracing/AI-upscaling rather than having a separate NPU that isn't a part of the GPU rendering pipeline.

[-]

luuuuuku@reddit

Ask AMD for that. Framework can’t sell something that doesn’t exist

[-]

bonecleaver_games@reddit

There isn't an RDNA4 mobile chip yet to the best of my knowledge.

[-]

steinfg@reddit

another 2 years obviously

[-]

Rocketman7@reddit

Another win for Framework. Too bad their 16'' laptop looks so clunky and bulky.

[-]

Rd3055@reddit

You could go for a normal, sleek gaming laptop but have very limited upgradability.

[-]

luuuuuku@reddit

In Reality, upgradability isn’t that much better on framework laptops

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Rocketman7@reddit

Of course, I didn't mean it as a dig at Framework (I love their direction). I just hope they improve on the design a bit in the future.

I mean, laptop 13 is upgradable and sleek imo, so it is possible to do both (although, I'm sure I don't fully appreciate the effort that went into making that a reality)

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H3LLGHa5T@reddit

If they make a 14' one I'll get one.

[-]

JoeDawson8@reddit

That’s rather cumbersome.

[-]

H3LLGHa5T@reddit

how is a 14' gaming laptop more cumbersome compared to a 16' gaming laptop?

[-]

SomeGirlIMetOnTheNet@reddit

Because single apostrophe means "feet" not "inches"

A 14" laptop is reasonable, a 14' laptop isn't

[-]

Strazdas1@reddit

its time we became civilized and used centimeters.

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JoeDawson8@reddit

Because your apostrophe denotes ‘foot’

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H3LLGHa5T@reddit

lol, well we're not using those my language... Now I want to see a real 14' gaming laptop though.

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reverends3rvo@reddit

Those extra two feet are negligible at that scale.

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awayish@reddit

it might be easy but we never said anything about cheap eh

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Strazdas1@reddit

Framework has always been expensive, but it has its userbase.

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left2repairLIVE@reddit

Is this a sign they might make a 13" second gen anytime soon?

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RandosaurusRex@reddit

They're already several generations into the FW13 though?

[-]

FragrantGas9@reddit

It's so regrettable that mobile 5070 is an 8 GB VRAM GPU =(

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chandleya@reddit

Yet I’ve had several MXM machines that I’ve swapped cards on over 10 years ago.

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the_nin_collector@reddit

Lol... First one in a while.

Back in 2005 I had a gaming laptop. And back then mobile versions of cards were changeable. Like the size of a deck of cards. SLI GPUs and it ran a desktop CPU instead of a mobile version.

[-]

goodbadidontknow@reddit

Article is hidden behind paywall.

[-]

georgemoore13@reddit

Or video here: https://youtu.be/OZRG7Og61mw?si=dAOTP_VQR-70kBc7

[-]

InevitableSherbert36@reddit

https://archive.ph/1Nc3L

[-]

jfatal97@reddit

History showed us that this kind of initiative is not sustainable. I remember Alienware try this a decade ago ( forgot the name of the device) but it never amounted to something

[-]

shugthedug3@reddit

That was a completely different approach, to be fair.

Think of this more like a module that bolts onto the back of the laptop, there's no real constraints on future versions beyond the PCIe lanes available and the physical size of the module.

[-]

Liesthroughisteeth@reddit

It is odd to have taken so long for at least one of the GPU manufacturers to do this, when you think about how many GPUs could be possibly sold in the future, just from this one little change of feature. Although you may have to over provision the power capability of the laptop at build to allow for the eventuality of a possible GPU upgrade. AKA, these won't be cheap. :)

[-]

DeliciousIncident@reddit

Still no 18 inch framework with a ton of IO ports.

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Sol33t303@reddit

This isn't the first though? Don't people remember those bare bones clevo laptops?

[-]

Jacko10101010101@reddit

for just 10000 $ !

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Crenorz@reddit

meaningless garbage.

By the time you might use it - like in the standard 2-4 years, it will be outdated and not able to use the latest new thing - which by then will be x4-x8 more powerfull than going with double of what you have. So just no point.

Like with being able to double your GPU's - no one does it after the fact due to this issue.

Tech just does not work this way.

Easy example - current has 30 pins, new has 48. The old 30 pin, will not update to 48, the new one has WAY more power.

I would be happy with a laptop that did not overheat - power lasts +12h gaming while unplugged. Do that and we can talk.

[-]

reverends3rvo@reddit

"I would be happy with a laptop that did not overheat - power lasts +12h gaming while unplugged. Do that and we can talk."

"Tech just does not work this way."

[-]

phillmybuttons@reddit

12 hours gaming on a cool laptop, unless your playing solitaire it’s not gonna happen.

More so with the framework as having a base that’s modular means inefficient heat transfer.

[-]

Beginning-Seat5221@reddit

They did this a long while back. It's not new.

[-]

shugthedug3@reddit

Nvidia option finally! I was beginning to lose hope on that one.

[-]

Firepandazoo@reddit

That's called an eGPU

[-]

shugthedug3@reddit

Sure, I use one already. Comes with disadvantages though, TB5 solves most of them but isn't yet common enough in every laptop.

[-]

greggm2000@reddit

The 8GB of VRAM in the 5070 option here, has it’s own disadvantages too. I’d rather have TB5.

[-]

shugthedug3@reddit

Me too but manufacturers don't seem to agree given the lack of it.

/r/hardware has some sort of hate boner for TB5 though

[-]

shugthedug3@reddit

They could spec a 5070Ti at 100W I think, Nvidia are pretty lax about letting manufacturers do stuff like that.

Maybe in time other chips will be available, maybe there's room for higher power ones too.

[-]

_OccamsChainsaw@reddit

This sounds like one of those good ideas on paper but in practice has mixed results. I've always known of gaming laptop limitations. I've also had gaming laptops occasionally during times I wanted to game and not at my home desktop.

My current laptop is an asus zephyrus with a mobile 4090. Sounds good on paper. The shitty Intel cpu will literally roast itself to the 7th level of hell and throttle the gpu with it, at even the most average of tasks. They also don't let you undervolt the cpu and so my only option is to power limit the cpu which opens up headroom for the gpu but I almost never reach 99% gpu utilization because a gimped already gimp cpu bottlenecks.

End result? I bet the 4080 performs exactly the same and until we get more customizability to better match the cpu and gpu combo for the laptop's form factor it's all moot.

[-]

NDLCZ@reddit

NVDIA cards on an already expensive laptop oof.