Line Up and Wait at an Uncontrolled

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TheShellCorp@reddit

You may pull onto the runway while someone is rolling out, in anticipation of an immediate takeoff. Nothing that says you can't.

Is it a good idea? Not usually.

Is it the catastrophically dangerous situation some are making it out to be? Not really any more so than flying out of an uncontrolled field on a nice day.

As always, judgement is required.

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This is the answer. It's also a lot different when you have rapport/trust with the people you're sharing the airspace with. If I hear one of my CFI co-workers on the radio on a busy day I'll ask them if we can line up and wait, then call wheels up for them so they know they don't need to go around on short final when we're airborne.

I would not do this if it's an aircraft from the 141 school we share the field with. Who knows what they'll do and I'm basically guaranteed to get a sassy passive agressive "N123XY GOING AROUND FOR TRAFFIC ON THE RUNWAY" call.

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makgross@reddit

What about the twin doing 140 on final who isn’t making radio calls?

Some of us have flown at Watsonville.

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Wasatcher@reddit

There are days at my home field where if you didn't you wouldn't get out.

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OrionX3@reddit

100%
Flying in and out of uncontrolled airports for the Kentucky derby requires some of this

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Mispelled-This@reddit

It’s different when the conflicting traffic is in front of you vs behind you.

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OtterVA@reddit

What would you be lining up and waiting for? IF getting an IFR clearance you’re calling at the hold short for IFR release.

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makgross@reddit

IFR release should happen out of the way. Not at the hold short line unless there isn’t any other place. Holds can be quite long.

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hawker1172@reddit

Lets say you had perfect situational awareness of the surrounding traffic. You would line up and wait after a landing aircraft to allow them to exit the runway and reduce your time on the runway if there’s traffic in the downwind per say.

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SelectAirline7459@reddit

Per se.

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hawker1172@reddit

Per day.

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CompassCardCaptain@reddit

One time I lined up and waited at an uncontrolled field for the other aircraft in my flight to get in formation with me on the runway.

Just saying...there are reasons.

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JasonThree@reddit

I've done it many times. Im not waiting for the aircraft to clear the runway to move past the hold short bars. Once they land i taxi to line up and wait then punch it when they are clear.

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TheOldBeef@reddit

How incredibly dangerous, it’s a miracle you survived

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WorkingOnPPL@reddit

Solo student pilot with 25 hours on final at uncontrolled field: "I am pretty sure I can just land in front of an aircraft that is lined up and waiting. I'll just ask my instructor after I land."

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Face88888888@reddit

This is why I don’t line up and wait. I only position and hold. 😉

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CannonAFB_unofficial@reddit

You’re old. I am too.

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FragrantCelery6408@reddit

The day after the verbiage changed, I was cleared to "position and hold" at ELM. I read back, "N12345 will line up and wait 24" Controller said, laughing, "you got me!"

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Carlito_2112@reddit

"I am pretty sure I can just land in front of that aircraft that is lined up and waiting. I'll just do it this one time...

Correct. You can definitely do it once.

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OZZMAN8@reddit

I had what was clearly a student pilot do the reverse of this at an untowered the other day. Had called three mile final, then he called taking off. When I called mile and a half to stress that he should hurry he said he would hold short. Sure enough I get him in sight moving onto the runway to what I assume he meant was line up and wait. First go around at my newish job.

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Mason3011@reddit

I had the DPE make me line up and wait on my private check ride. My CFI said this guy likes taxiing slower than a turtle so I taxi’d very slow too. The DPE said not to rush and soon after we started to taxi, he said I can start moving faster as he’s trying to get out early because the traffic would increase soon. He then told me to lineup and wait. I’ve never done that at a non towered before so it threw me off. It wasn’t like he was saying this to test me, but I should’ve told him I wasn’t comfortable doing that. I lined up and waited to get ready for my short field takeoff. I powered up with feet on the brakes and there was still traffic getting off the runway. I got so used to going when I entered the runway that I almost forgot to see if traffic was clear. This is something I would do before entering the runway. So I would not recommend line up and wait uncontrolled at all, especially if it isn’t something that you’re used to. I thought I busted, but I wasn’t taking off yet and the traffic exited before I started the roll.

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aviatortrevor@reddit

Nothing legally against doing it, not a great idea though. If you anticipate the "waiting" part is only going to be like 5 seconds, and you have been paying attention to radio calls for the last several minutes, and you looked carefully for traffic, and you looked at ADS-B traffic, then I say you can do it. Some might argue "if its just 5 seconds, why not just hold short 5 seconds? Is the risk worth getting airborne a couple seconds earlier? Are you really in that much of a rush?" Which I would say I agree with that logic, and would hold short, unless it was a situation where perhaps I need to takeoff prior to some other traffic inbound on the downwind and I'm trying to be timely so I can squeeze out behind a landing airplane and before the next landing airplane. That line-up-and-wait now saved me like 3-6 minutes of waiting in 100 degree heat or something, so yes, I assessed the situation and determined I could pull off the squeeze-out. Sometimes I've lined-up-and-waited because the guy on the downwind tells me "hey, I'll extend downwind for you so you can get out" because they recognize if I wait for them to land, it's a whole pattern full of airplanes that will just keep landing and not let me out.

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Mehere_64@reddit

Be careful not all planes have ads-b.

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aviatortrevor@reddit

I am well aware. That doesn't change my decision in that very narrow scope of a situation I described. If I really am going to get hit simply because I lined up and waited at an uncontrolled airport for 5 seconds, or even 10 or 15 seconds for that matter, it's pretty hard to conceptualize a situation where I somehow missed any traffic threat visually, audibly, and technologically that was that close to landing at the time I took the runway. They would have had to be pretty close in, which means even an immediate takeoff would have resulted in a loss of adequate/safe separation. And this also presumes the pilot landing is blind as a bat and doesn't notice me on the runway they are landing on. Most pilots will notice an airplane on their runway most of the time. I'm not saying its impossible that we could collide, but we are conceptualizing an event that has the odds of like 1 in 10 million of resulting in a collision. You could argue that not lining up and waiting eliminates that risk, and I would agree. And not flying at all also eliminates the risk. Life is full of risks. This is such a minuscule risk in my opinion, and if it saves me 6 minutes of sitting on the ground, I don't see the issue. Now if someone is advocating lining up and waiting for like 60+ seconds, I would really question why that was necessary.

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el_jah420@reddit

i'm pretty sure that's why he also said "been paying attention to radio calls for the last several minutes, and you have looked carefully for traffic"

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obecalp23@reddit

Not all pilots make radio calls…

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el_jah420@reddit

so then if you've looked for traffic, checked ads b and been listening to radio wtf else are u supposed to do dude 💀

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theoriginalturk@reddit

You can’t physically get on a runway at an uncontrolled field by taking this logic to the extreme

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livebeta@reddit

How about not get on the runway until you're ready to take off

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el_jah420@reddit

lmao ya thanks dude smh💀

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Ok-Selection4206@reddit

Traffic in the pattern or on final doesn't always announce their intentions either. We had one of our Dc9s going into an airport before the tower was open. After they landed, they announced they were back taxing to exit on ctaf , and as they turned off, a Dc8 rolled past and torn the back 1/3 of the dc9 off at the production splice. They never switched over to common traffic.

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Cherokee260@reddit

Don’t pull out on the runway and say you’re holding for landing traffic, and don’t pull out behind someone departing until they’re clear of the tarmac. It’s a runway incursion to have two planes on the runway at a non towered airport and you save like 10-15 seconds of time.

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vanillanuttapped@reddit

It’s a runway incursion to have two planes on the runway at a non towered airport

Source?

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Cherokee260@reddit

“Any occurrence at an aerodrome involving the incorrect presence of an aircraft, vehicle or person on the protected area of a surface designated for the landing and take off of aircraft”.

While it’s true that you don’t own the runway at a nontowered airfield, most aircraft will be forced to go around if you’re holding short on the runway as you are within the protected environment. Plenty of SOPs disallow it. Also common sense states don’t turn your back to a landing plane.

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mkosmo@reddit

There's no protected environment at an uncontrolled field. There's no such thing as a runway incursion at an uncontrolled field, as the presence of the aircraft cannot be characterized as "incorrect" per the FAA's definition.

Even ICAO simply calls this a surface incident rather than an incursion.

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Cherokee260@reddit

If there is “no protected environment” why are hold short lines depicted? That argument doesn’t make sense. And the actual implication of the term surface incursion is the same as runway environment so I’m not sure why it matters. Pulling out onto a runway while another plane is landing definitely can constitute a violation of 91.13 and 91.111.

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mkosmo@reddit

They're advisory, not compulsory.

Yes, you can violate other regs without it being a runway incursion. Incursion has a very specific definition that you simply cannot meet at an uncontrolled field by virtue of it being uncontrolled.

Calling on 91.13 or .111 doesn't change that.

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Cherokee260@reddit

Do you have a source that says the term runway incursion does not apply to nontowered airfields? I’ve heard the term used numerous times and even by folks from ATC/FAA.

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Why-R-People-So-Dumb@reddit

I think the problem you are having here is you are fairly applying logic to the arguments above; however you are not considering why operationally it could pose an issue every time you have two airplanes occupying the tarmac designated as a runway.

At my home field it's a common occurrence for us to coordinate a back taxi after the plane passes the "taxiway" that abuts the runway and also while people are in the pattern, which by the way is a very short downwind because the rwy is only 2000' long, oh and no way to extend it without going into a charlie surface directly in the approach path of airliners. The runway at uncontrolled fields many times has more than one purpose so the rules are intentionally non-existent to allow operations to actually be able to continue with coordinated efforts between pilots.

Would I line up and wait, no, but I do back taxi with someone taking off on the other end of the rwy with our backs to each other so that I can get there, turn and burn without someone too close on final.

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Cherokee260@reddit

That’s one hyper specific example where it doesn’t apply. If you line up and wait while an aircraft’s landing there’s an obvious safety implication there but another situation could occur if you takeoff right behind an airplane in the same direction. Faster airplanes could cut the traffic ahead off etc. There was a very tragic incident near my home airport that happened due to poor procedures at a nontowered airport and that’s why I’m very specific and adamant about this- get clear of the runway and stay clear until you’re ready to go. I will not take off or land if another airplane is occupying that environment. Taxiing is an exception in your case but you still need to be making calls etc regardless when entering the runway environment beyond the hold short line.

Source: Runway collision at KUIN.

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Why-R-People-So-Dumb@reddit

Just to be clear I wasn't part of the downvote party just having a discussion.

I'm fully in the camp of use the runway when you are ready to and get the hell off of it quickly.

I wouldn't say it's hyper specific, a lot of smaller non towered airports have weird operational issues, even specific examples is common enough in a handful of places I've flown to. I feel like you picture airports that are similar to towered airports but without a tower when you picture untowered. Most around me are either really small OPs or at least D. We have a ton of Wild Wild West airports around me. This could be the reason we don't have many untowered bigger airports, because instead it's been decentralized to a ton of smaller ops scattered about.

The point is that it's not a rule because of these types of issues, it doesn't mean that common sense shouldn't be involved. So yeah back to the original post intentionally lining up and waiting at an untowered airport sounds pretty dumb generally speaking, with the exception of some coordinated efforts like airshows or fly-ins. I don't even like doing it with ATC "watching my back." That doesn't mean somewhere there isn't a scenario where it could make sense, in our scenario there is always a risk of rejected takeoff during your back taxi and that's very uncomfortable to get yourself stuck...I've taxied back up and off to the side in the grass where I know it's safe to do so until the debacle gets cleared out.

Also a side note...what hold short line?. 😆

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Cherokee260@reddit

Where’s that photo from? A lot of the nontowered airports around me, even the really poorly maintained ones still utilize hold short lines. Only time I haven’t seen them actually is at grass strips.

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Why-R-People-So-Dumb@reddit

That's from my home strip...I just snapped it from Google but I'm pretty sure that's a recent photo and am sure it's still marked that way.

I'm generally anonymous here so I'll say this isn't uncommon in New England.

There is no hold short because the runway is also the taxiway, you'll also notice there isn't enough space for two aircraft on that taxiway (it only goes to the pumps, across the way is the hangars), so either you have to wait way far back which doesn't work when trying to quickly back taxi, or go off to the side in the grass, or go out on the runway while they turn around and back taxi back up to make space for the landing plane (there is like a 65/35 split where that taxiway sits on the runway, you can slow down enough to hit it going one way but not the other way in most planes). So TLDR there is no logical place to put a hold short...it would only serve to make the person who painted the line feel good about themselves.

Usually other planes are the least of my concerns of the hazards occupying the runway, everyone in and out of our strip knows to use the radio and communicate clearly what they are doing. It's the non aviation traffic finding its way on the runway that is more problematic.

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jmizzle@reddit

Instead of trying to prove a negative, showing anything that applies runway incursion to nontowered fields makes more sense.

I highly doubt you ever heard ATC refer to runway incursions “numerous times” since ATC has no control over the airfield.

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Cherokee260@reddit

You do know ATC exists outside of the context of their jobs right?

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jmizzle@reddit

You do know that some random controller doesn't know everything about everything, right?

You're the one choosing to die on this sword, so show us literally anything anywhere within the FARs, AIM, or an advisory circular discussing runway incursions at uncontrolled fields.

Heck, here's an entire 28 page AC on uncontrolled fields to get you started. I'll wait...

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/1041885

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Cherokee260@reddit

The ASRS defines them as occurring at both varieties of airport. https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/callback/cb_253.htm

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theoriginalturk@reddit

r/confidentlyincorrect

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clearingmyprop@reddit

Tarmac?

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Cherokee260@reddit

“A tarmac at an airport refers to the paved surfaces where aircraft move, including the apron, taxiways, and runways”.

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clearingmyprop@reddit

Just never heard a pilot actually use that word

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odinsen251a@reddit

Because "Tarmac" is literally "asphalt" that uses a different binder. Tar instead of bitumen.

Apron, taxiway, runway, ramp, movement or non-movement areas all have actual meaning in the context of an airport. Saying "Tarmac" is like saying "concrete"

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brrrrrrrrtttttt@reddit

I came for the knowledge, I stayed for the pedantic tism associated with people who get beat down with the phrase “words matter.”

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hawker1172@reddit

Tarmac is a disgusting word applied to aviation for zero reason and overused by the news media and general public.

I suggest instead taxiway, runway, movement area, ramp, etc.

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thrfscowaway8610@reddit

"Oh, they scraped him off the tarmac like a pound of strawberry jam..."

(Set to the tune of John Brown's Body.)

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dsanders692@reddit

Don't pull out behind someone departing until they're clear of the [apron, taxiways, and runways]

That... Might be challenging

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AKcargopilot@reddit

Never again please

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DefundTheHOA_@reddit

You’re making stuff up

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DelRio2Night@reddit

I also like living dangerously.

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Icy_Huckleberry_8049@reddit

why would you even consider that? It clogs the runway for anyone else that might want to use it and creates an unneeded hazard.

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RBR927@reddit

There’s no regulations against it, but it’s an incredibly dumb thing to do.

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BmacSWMI@reddit

Incredibly dumb is a bit harsh, but yeah, if you’re taking the runway go go go!

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RBR927@reddit

Found the dumbass.

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BmacSWMI@reddit

Really…

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RBR927@reddit

That’s where we all start!

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ManyPandas@reddit

Careless/Reckless kinda catches those

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RBR927@reddit

Huh?

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ManyPandas@reddit

As in, actions that aren’t technically against regulations, but are obviously unsafe.

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RBR927@reddit

It’s not unsafe if done properly, but still a stupid thing to do.

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Black-Coffee-55@reddit

How do you do it properly?

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RBR927@reddit

At a controlled airfield.

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Black-Coffee-55@reddit

I guess I got confused because everyone else is discussing uncontrolled airports.

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RBR927@reddit

Don’t do it there.

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Black-Coffee-55@reddit

Well, yeah. That's what the post is about.

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RBR927@reddit

Glad we are on the same page, shame it’s in different books.

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hawker1172@reddit

No. Not a great idea for a couple reasons but this is not 91.13

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FlyingScot1050@reddit

This. Putting yourself in a position where you can't see traffic on final when you're not actively taking off is profoundly dumb.

I see it unfortunately frequently at our busier local uncontrolled fields, usually right after the landing traffic has crossed the threshold so they can secure their "turn" to take off and then they wait there until the landing traffic has turned off.

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Easy-Trouble7885@reddit

Yep. Don't do it. Either takeoff immediately or wait until the next traffic has landed. I wouldn't turn my back to the approach on an uncontrolled field.

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CompassCardCaptain@reddit

What does the word "uncontrolled" mean to you?

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Lamathrust7891@reddit

Death wish

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Creative-Grocery2581@reddit

It’s up to the pilot and published information on map and chart of that airport.

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el_jah420@reddit

so then if you've looked for traffic, checked ads b and been listening to radio wtf else are u supposed to do dude😭

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3Green1974@reddit

Why do you want to do that?

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VarietyIllustrious77@reddit

Make clearing turns at end of end of runway watching for traffic in the pattern while announcing intention s on radio and have passengers also contribute to buddy system

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TobyADev@reddit

I certainly wouldn’t line up and wait. I’d gtfo the runway

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voretaq7@reddit

"Line up and wait" is a tower instruction.
Without a tower to give it to you it's simply not a thing.

You CAN roll on to a runway at an uncontrolled field behind landing traffic and wait to see them visually clear of the runway (or wait for them to call clear over the radio) before you start your takeoff roll, but IMHO you SHOULDN'T because now you have no view of final and no idea what the guy in the ragwing biplane with no radio that you didn't see on downwind/base is doing.
They might be unpleasantly surprised by your rolling onto the runway and sitting there, and you might be unpleasantly surprised to see them overflying you on a go-around while you're about to rotate.

As a general rule at an uncontrolled field I'd try to stick to the rule of "One airplane on the runway at a time."

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MoreSpoiler@reddit

“Lining up”

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ahappywaterheater@reddit

I wouldn’t put my back to arrival traffic. Plus, you’ll never know if the departing traffic will have an emergency and have to come back.

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Helpful_Corn-@reddit

Most of the comments seem to be assuming that you are lining up on the runway in order to squeeze in between two landings. I cannot fathom why anyone would ever do that.

That said, if there is a big enough gap anyway, I will absolutely line up and wait once landing traffic has passed me if I just want to take off a little more quickly.

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Neither-Way-4889@reddit

Its not illegal, but it is a terrible idea to sit stationary on a runway with your back facing final at an uncontrolled field.

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Sticks111162@reddit

I do fly out of a busy uncontrolled airport and while I typically advise against “Taxing into position” as I call it. If I’m just waiting for an aircraft to hit the midfield exit, it’s completely legal for me to begin my taxi to the numbers in preparation to depart. Actually did it today waiting on a gruman, by the time I even got into position they were clear of the runway and we were rolling. Would never do such a thing if someone was on final but there were 4 of us holding short and no one in the pattern so

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chrishiggins@reddit

For everyone complaining about how stupid you think the action of stopping on the runway is.. . how do you practice your short field takeoff?

forgot about what you are calling it... but luaw and short field takeoff practice seem very similar to a plane in the pattern..

but if you are doing short field practice, then clearly let ctaf know that's what you are doing.

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slyskyflyby@reddit

The difference is the amount of time. When doing a short field takeoff the time it takes for you to come to a stop, add full power and release the brakes probably takes 7 seconds. Vs a guy doing a line up and wit and pulling on the runway to sit there for 30 seconds to a minute.

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chrishiggins@reddit

7 seconds? with a student? that's amazing 🤩

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retrotechguy@reddit

Only if you learned to fly at Riddle

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CompassCardCaptain@reddit

They don't teach you to fly at Riddle. Only to pass their in-house checkrides.

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Jwylde2@reddit

If by uncontrolled you mean a non-towered airport, why would you do this? What purpose would it serve?

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Morganater123@reddit

We don’t particularly line up and wait at ours. But our twin has a ASD longer than our current runway, we’ll enter, line up, then spool our turbos up and send it over the course of 5-10 seconds. Not a long time but we’re not entering and rolling

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didsomebodysaywander@reddit

That's not really any different than simulating a short field takeoff in a trainer, and I wouldn't really call that LUAW.

I'm guessing at a towered field you don't even ask for a delay in departure, its just your takeoff procedure?

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Morganater123@reddit

We don’t actually do a whole lot of towered ops departures in our twin. When we do if the field is less than 3500’ we’ll ask for “momentary delay”, but most of the towered runways we hit are 5000’+ so we’ll just send it.

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Relative-Nebula-7515@reddit

§ 91.13 Careless or reckless.
§ 91.113 (g) Landing. Right-of-way rules.

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azbrewcrew@reddit

That’s a command issued to a crew by a tower controller. It doesn’t apply at an aerodrome without a controller controlling traffic.

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poser765@reddit

The question is why do it? Busier airports typically have tight windows for departure spacing, n simultaneous arrivals and departures on the same runway, intersecting runway ops, etc. along with all of that the aircraft the are dealing with are slow to spool up and lumbering when moving around the ground. It makes sense to min/max shit.

When you’re flying out of the municipal air park those issues don’t exist and you can whip a 172 out into the runway in seconds.

I just don’t know what you’d gain by those other than wheels up 7 seconds sooner.

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RedDirtDVD@reddit

Uncontrolled means you are dictating the situation - I’m doing x y z. There is no controller. What are you waiting for? You can either go or you should wait until you can go. This shouldn’t be a thing. It’s same level of dumb as landing clearance when you can’t land because someone is on the runway. I know it happens in US all the time. But it doesn’t make it smart or mean it should be a thing.

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Baystate411@reddit

Line up and wait at an uncontrolled field? You mean a runway incursion?

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hawker1172@reddit

If lining up while someone is exiting downfield is a “runway incursion” at an uncontrolled field then it would also be a runway incursion at a controlled field.

You’re stretching the definition/understanding of incorrect presence. Entering the runway with an aircraft in the flare creating a collision hazard would be a runway incursion.

It would all be context.

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sharkbite217@reddit

Why would you want to?

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VanDenBroeck@reddit

I was leaving a large fly-in one time at a non towered field and nearly everyone was doing line up and wait, and announcing it on CTAF, even though there was inbound traffic. Fortunately, the landing plane only had to do one go around. Too many idiots have pilot's licenses.

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BeefyMcPissflaps@reddit

Line up and wait is a towered airport command to enter the runway. Not something to do at an uncontrolled airport.

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Nnumber@reddit

They do this at the flight school at JNX. A departing aircraft at an intersection and LUAW sitting there running some checklists for minutes. I had one pull out in front of me once do this and fed back to the pic that culture is pretty unsafe. Hopefully it’s changed.

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Gutter_Snoop@reddit

Loving all these answers that make it sound catastrophically dumb.

As with most things, there are considerations. Are you just lining up and waiting like ten seconds for traffic that just lifted off to gain some distance on upwind with no one on final? Or to make sure you've completed a line-up checklist correctly? Or at a high density altitude airport where you want to set the mixture for best performance using static thrust before beginning a takeoff roll? Sure, go right ahead.

More than about 10 seconds though? Wouldn't do it.

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prex10@reddit

Not illegal but not recommended

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R5Jockey@reddit

Common sense/courtesy.

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THEchubbypancakes@reddit

AIM 5-2-5 states line up and wait is an air traffic control procedure. Nothing illegal about doing it, but there’s no point. It may save you 10 seconds but it’s unsafe. I teach all of my students not to do it, and it’s one of my biggest pet peeves when I hear other instructors at my company lined up and waiting. Especially at busy nontowered airports.

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Dmackman1969@reddit

Common sense says don’t do it.

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NoAssociation3297@reddit

Fr. I didn’t even started my PPL course and I’m pretty sure it is a bad idea

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NoAssociation3297@reddit

I didnt even started my PPL course and I know it is a very bad idea. Why would u want to gove your back to the upcoming traffic…

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CryptographerRare793@reddit

Line up and wait is a clearance for towered airports that mostly gets used to set one aircraft up for for takeoff while another is exiting the runway where I am. However, I've had people do this to me at untowered airports while I was on final. On top of it being just an incredibly dumb thing to do, if someone does this in front of a larger aircraft or a jet on short final, there isn't much room for the pilot flying to react. Turbines take awhile to spool up and there is already alot of energy heading towards the ground. At a non controlled field, if you "line up and wait," its a runway incursion at best.

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TempusFugit2020@reddit

"Become a pilot...learn to split hairs" they told me!

LUAW is an ATC clearance. LUAW can't be assigned at an uncontrolled field. At an uncontrolled field that's called "GOT RATUS FNGR"...

Getting on the runway an taking up space for no good reason. :)

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