How is Chevy able to build the Zr1 so much cheaper than all the other European brands, and be so much faster?
Posted by SilverSpoonphysics@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 172 comments
I’ve been seeing more and more ZR1 videos lately and honestly, I don’t get how Chevy pulled this off. MSRP is around $180k (not even talking dealer markups), and somehow they’ve built a car that’s this fast and track-ready at that price point. The latest Dragy times are wild: 60–130: 4.28s 100–150: 4.33s 1/4 mile: 9.57 @ 152 mph And these runs were done on the street. That’s quicker than a 765LT, SF90, Tesla Plaid, even the Lamborghini Revuelto. What blows my mind even more is that it’s still comfortable enough to daily drive, you can get it as a convertible, and repairs/maintenance are way cheaper compared to its European counterparts. All of that in a package that undercuts just about everything it competes with. How is this even possible?
threeinacorner@reddit
I think scale and manufacturing integration is the correct answer.
For a more extreme example, look at the Xiaomi SU7 Ultra. Below $150k price for a car that shits on both the Taycan Turbo GT and the multimillion dollar Rimac Nevera.
Prestigious_Road9255@reddit
Well to be fair that’s a bad point as Xiaomi is subsidized by the Chinese government to sell cars cheaper overseas. They are trying to all the other non Chinese car manufacturers out of business so they have a monopoly.
threeinacorner@reddit
Wow, a bit of a late comment haha, but no, you are incorrect. First of all: xiaomi isn't even selling the SU7 overseas. Second, credible analysis has found that cars from big Chinese OEMs like BYD have much bigger profit margins in western markets like Europe than in China itself. So actually you got it backwards: we are subsidizing their price wars in China.
jim2527@reddit
Corvette is one of, if not the most profitable vehicles GM. They make hundreds of millions a year off Corvette alone. But yes, economies of scale.
SailingSpark@reddit
Scale. Chevy built 25,000 regular corvettes in 2025. That spreads out most of the engineering cost over many cars. Chevy also parts bins a lot of the stuff you cannot see, further spreading engineering costs across many models.
Gunk_Olgidar@reddit
Exactly.
Compare to 13,000 Ferrari's made last year. McLaren about 3k or so.
newtonreddits@reddit
I always tell people if Honda took all the R&D it spent on a new Civic but just produced one of it for some reason, it would be a multi-million dollar Civic.
shonglesshit@reddit
Easily. The development cost of a mass produced engine can reach hundreds of millions of dollars
WestAuxG@reddit
... Really?
Loud-Relative4038@reddit
Toyota spent over 1 Billion developing the LS400 (Celsior)…in the 1980s. They are still using engines derived from the 1UZ that powered it. Soooo 40 years later that 1 Billion is still paying off.
p1028@reddit
Platforms that big manufacturers can build many cars off of cost billions of dollars to develop.
Fun-Shake7094@reddit
More. If you factor in tooling and production lines.
JCDU@reddit
I've heard a billion dollars to develop a new car platform, and that was years ago.
Toyota makes 10 million cars a year, it can spread the R&D costs across millions of vehicles. Ferrari hasn't made a million cars in total ever, not even close.
angrycanadianguy@reddit
I can’t speak about today, but up to the 2010’s, Toyota also made fewer drivetrains than most other manufacturers, as well as continued to do mild redesigns of basically every component instead of completely new designs.
Otherwise-Ad6675@reddit
Yeah its why the american big 3 held onto thier small block v8 lines for as long as possible and stuck those engines in anything that they could fit them in. They only had to pay R&D costs once and by the time those engine families were cut the development costs were paid off decades prior.
40thAE@reddit
Ferrari doesn’t charge based on the cost of the parts and labor. Chevy probably charges 30% margins.
When you buy a Ferrari for $2m you are essentially making a $2m donation to their F1 team and the car is a $80k thank you gift.
JimmyGodoppolo@reddit
I mean, Ferrari are hand built. The body panels are custom fit to each car, so you can't swap body panels from one to another, even within identical models.
Their labor costs are astronomically higher than Chevy.
That said, more like a $1.7m donation and $300k gift.
series_hybrid@reddit
This is a GREAT explanation. Thank you.
Gunk_Olgidar@reddit
Exactly.
Besides, if Ferrari made 80,000 Ferraris per year, they wouldn't be able to find eighty thousand sucke-- I mean most honorable and respected customers
-- to be "invited" to give them $2m F1 team donations ;-)psycleridr@reddit
This right here OP. Scale of economy. Its not just about the Corvettes but many of the same parts go into Cadillacs, Camaros, Suburbans, etc. the GM/Chevy parts bin goes deep where the Ferrari, Lambo, McLaren, etc is shallow by comparison although that is changing. Many Porsche and Lambo parts are just rebranded Audi parts but they want to keep it exclusive so not everyone knows. GM doesn't care as its been out there for decades. So the just as Sailing Spark said the R&D costs are spread out over hundreds of thousands of cars and brands under the GM name. The luxury supercar brands is maybe tens of thousands at best
wickedcold@reddit
Not only that, this is the flagship sports car for the entire brand. It doesn’t even have to make money really. Whereas these exotic companies have to feed all their employees off of the sales of their sports cars. GM could lose money on Corvettes, or even just lose money on just the ZR-1 (not saying they do, I have no idea) and still come out ahead.
nasadowsk@reddit
Also, people don't care about parts binning, as long as it's done well. Everyone knows it's a Chevy. If it uses the same alternator as another GM car, who cares?
One thing that screwed GM was that there was a good amount of duplicity years back. Different divisions had their own engines, transmissions, etc.
When the shit hit the fan, they did a hard swing the other way, and were really bad at it.
Ironically, for all the shit Harley gets, they went from the late 80s to the mid 00s by making 4 basic bikes, using two different engines, and 4 frames (the Dyna had a sub variant). Basically, they made a lot of models that were mostly the same, with different bits added on.
series_hybrid@reddit
Ah..."Taco Bell" design planning.
ohgodimbleeding@reddit
On the Harley bit, I love it. I have an 08 FXSTC and a 13 FLSTC. The 13 I bought new, the 08 I bought used. As I modified the 13, the newer and nicer stock parts replaced parts on the 08.
JCDU@reddit
\^ this, GM could write off Corvettes as a loss-making PR exercise and still be doing just great, in fact being able to brag they were beating everyone else at making that performance for that money would itself be a "halo" as well as hurting a few rival brands in the process.
Zhombe@reddit
And oodles of plastic everything. Plastic everywhere.
Corvettes have been built like Tonka Toys ever since Saturn made polymer panels a thing.
Fit, finish, and quality of materials is orders of magnitude different between some super cars and Corvettes.
Go fast; fine. But they’re not the same.
proscreations1993@reddit
Bro most super cars do not have amazing quality. McLarens interiors fall apart after like 2 years... let alone everything else... ive never seen a corvette falling apart. Lambo has used parts from Ford before...
ImprovementEnough939@reddit
I’m confused, are you saying other manufacturers don’t use plastic parts in their cars? I don’t quite know why but your comment sounds like a coping mechanism the other manufacturers are trying to push.
To each their own, I guess, but the fact remains that the ZR1 is blowing many other cars out of the water, and I haven’t heard a whole lot about fit and finish on it.
mar78217@reddit
Ferrari, Lamborghini, and McLaren are not using plastics in the interior. Of course Toyota, Honda, Dodge and Ford are just as much as GM and Dodge (Stellantis) is likely the worst "U.S." manufacturer as far as cheap interiors go.
Zhombe@reddit
Meh; what I mean is, some cars are far nicer inside. Could care less if it’s the fastest thing on the planet if it’s not refined on the inside as well as the outside.
I enjoy a vehicle at normal speeds 100x more often than cranked to 11. If it’s a track car that’s one thing. But I expect it to be an amazing daily driver as well.
Dry_Pilot_1050@reddit
I’d agree with you but Lexus can compare to the super cars in their high end models <100k
Zhombe@reddit
Right. I’d take an LSF over any vette. Ever.
Motohvayshun@reddit
Jesus such a dumb take.
PDub466@reddit
Hand-built supercars have TERRIBLE fit and finish. I've seen Lamborghinis and Ferraris. Many of them look like an 8-year-old built a model car with too much Testors glue.
Also, EVERY car is full of plastic, all the way back to the late 1960s when safety regs had them start installing padded dashboards.
Jdevers77@reddit
Ferrari isn’t nearly as bad but Lamborghini’s have always been like this. Pieces of art that barely function as a car. Virtually every car they have ever made is one step better than a concept car. Ferrari has made several legitimately great cars (some shit mobiles too of course).
nucl3ar0ne@reddit
Had to scroll way too far for this.
YBS_H2O@reddit
Not that it's realistic but daily drive a Corvette for 50k miles and then do the same with one of cars you're referring to and see how each one compares then. It's a little easier to appear "refined" when your expected use case is ~1200 miles per year.
Double_Dime@reddit
When was the last time you were in a vette? The C8 interior is a wonderful place to be, as someone who regularly fixes them.
phislammajamma@reddit
Idiot
three_s-works@reddit
I’m also pretty sure there aren’t really making money on these cars
Rlchv70@reddit
It’s not just parts binning. It’s also leverage. You sell us 1000 ZR1 brake calipers at $xx, we’ll also buy 1M calipers for other products from you.
figgypudding02@reddit
Its scale and the fact they probably are not making the margins the more exotics add. A lot of the price of exotics is for the exclusivity of the car.
PrivateMarkets@reddit
I haven’t seen one beat a Plaid yet as an FYI. Need to be quicker than a 9.3
ComeForARideYo@reddit
Once you’ve spent 25 years repairing vehicles you’ll see the build quality of domestic vs European and Japanese builds.
ZenithRepairman@reddit
GM makes triple the amount of corvettes alone than I think Ferrari makes anything.
It’s all plug and play - if you’ll pay for it, they’ll make you one. They don’t need to gatekeep - you got the money? They’ll churn one out just for you.
bonestamp@reddit
I think a lot people also forget what kind of engineering and manufacturing powerhouse GM was. Before China's and Toyota's rise, GM was not just the manufacturing leader in Automotive, but in basically everything. They made trains, buses, street cars, military vehicles, space vehicles and satellites, planes (to some degree), and even home appliances... oh ya, and they sold more cars than any other company at the same time.
tissotti@reddit
I mean it is not just Toyota. VW is multitudes larger and made it work what GM tried for 2-3 decades. Couple of modular platforms spread to multiple brands made VW largest or second largest car manufacturer in the world past 25 years switching places with Toyota depending on year. VW is around two times larger than GM on revenue.
Hell, Stellantis, Mercedes, BMW have around the same revenue as GM.
BeTomHamilton@reddit
Yeah I've always appreciated this, and it's why I do think of the C8 and its ZR1 as a triumph of American engineering and industry.
For the price, of course you can get a bespoke car with hand-beaten body panels and all. And you'll only have one of 5000 ever made that year, and yours will be special. Maybe it belongs in a museum. But there's something special about being able to get that world-beating performance out of a production car that sells for 1/3rd the price. I'll never own one, but in a world this big, SHOULDN'T there be one?
MasterZoidberg@reddit
Ferrari makes majority of their actual $$ from people buying options for their car
Responsible-Crew-354@reddit
I haven’t sat in either but I’m 99.99% sure one will feel more premium and expensive than the other, regardless of track times. That is a major factor. Chevy has come a long way but it’s still a Chevy.
bubbasass@reddit
Because AMERICA! Lol
corporaterebel@reddit
Chevy schooled *everybody* on the C8. And they can draw from a large org of people and parts bins.
I suspect kicking the model off at US$60K allowed them to pay back the R&D rather quickly.
Why Ford didn't do the same thing with the GT is beyond me.
Gunk_Olgidar@reddit
Because Ford doesn't build them, and Multimatic is a small shop.
lpg975@reddit
Huh. TiL Ford doesn't built the GT. The more you know!
series_hybrid@reddit
Yup, it's a Halo car. If you lowered the price of diamonds to sell more, diamonds would lose their "special" status among customers who care about that.
corporaterebel@reddit
Yes, I was aware they were made in Canada, but why not mass produce? they could have sold 10x or 20x of them at $150K.
FindingUsernamesSuck@reddit
I'd have to trust they just didn't think they could make more money that way.
Market research & forecasting is a crapshoot at the end of the day, but there are a lot of smart people who work real hard to figure this stuff out.
corporaterebel@reddit
I'm with Steve Jobs: "People don't know what they want until you show it to them."
Henry Ford knew this too: "If I asked people what they wanted, they would have said ' want a faster horse'.".
It's a waste of time to ask people what they want: they simply do not know.
They will also not buy stuff they don't want. Which is where the "The customer is always right [in matters of taste]".
The_Shryk@reddit
We always think that… but honestly a lot of business decisions are made based on vibes. The vette is selling insanely well, there’s a market that’ll buy a ford version.
If ram never made the Trex you’d see the same comment as yours saying “they didn’t make their own version of the Ford Raptor based on research and forecasting market conditions blah blah.”
MoneyPitAuto@reddit
One factor in this that rarely gets brought up:
The entire C8 line was planned before the first part was produced. They designed the Stingray to share as many parts with the ZR1X. For example, the reason that the Z06 has a Y-shaped air intake is because they knew they needed an additional air intake on the ZR1, so the Y shape let them swap out a small body panel instead of having to make a much larger panel.
The GTD was absolutely not conceived at the same time as the S650 Mustang generation. They just didn't plan ahead and it's hard to create an assembly-line compatible design after the fact. Not to say it's impossible, but it adds cost and complexity, and somewhere along the line someone did the math that having it be hand built was placed it at a better nexus of price and volume.
mar78217@reddit
This is the best answer. The Corvette has existed and evolved for 70 years making the R & D more cost effective than starting from scratch. They did not design the C8 off of the Camaro, they designed it off the last Corvette before it. The last GT was 2005 of which 4,500 were built. The one before that was the race car Carrol Shelby built for Ford from 1964 - 1969 of which only 105 were built.
There were some 1960s models build in the 70s by Safir that were considered a continuation and replicas throughout the decades, but no continuation of advancement Ford could use to build off it.
xangkory@reddit
It would cannibalize sales of their other products and I suspect that one of the reasons why this is relatively inexpensive is because they have lower margins on this than they do their other products.
Produce an aspirational product, price it competitively, limit production and it will help sell your other products that actually make money.
mar78217@reddit
Who exactly would buy a GT instead of a Truck or a Contour? What product does Ford currently sell that the GT competes with if you lower the price? No one thinks Corvettes take away Camaro sales.
xangkory@reddit
So this is about the 'vette not Ford. And I am specifically speaking to Corvette sales, and cannibalizing sales of the z06 and base trims. They have really good margins on those products and need to maintain sales of those products.
This is one of the rare circumstances where the manufacturer doesn't want you to buy the top trim, more common among the European manufacturers and not something the American companies could pull off.
And on your comment about Camaros, they want the aspirational aspect to pull entry-level drivers into a Camaro instead of a Mustang or Charger/Challenger. Drives both current purchases to the products they want consumers to buy and build the market for future sales.
wanderingdiscovery@reddit
Small shop, limited employees, limited budget and run. I had a friend living in my building who worked there in the 2010s during early R&D. It wasn't designed to be mass produced, only for a limited period of production. It was more to demonstrate the racing R&D and capabilities of Ford and then transfer some of that tech and knowledge over to future models.
Ford and Chevy are apples and oranges. Ford could put more money into projects like the GT, but don't want to, and prefer more SUV oriented vehicles + offloading (Bronco, Explorer) - but most of their racing tech is going into the Mustang, whereas GM want to focus on a bit of both, for example GMT31XX-2 (Canyon & Colorado), or C8 performance and development.
To each their own.
StarsandMaple@reddit
Keep it exclusive, means they can release a handful at crazy upsale prices no issues.
Ford just uses the Mustang as their ‘everything’ car.
OlYeller01@reddit
Yep, Ford abandoned the common speed enthusiast starting with the 2007 Shelby GT500.
I wistfully recall the glory days of SVT, when $26K could get you a fully loaded Mustang GT, $30K a Mach, and $35K a world-beating Terminator Cobra. Now it’s…a $55K Mustang GT, a $75K Dark Horse, a soon-to-be $100K plus Shelby, and a $300K plus GTD? Ugh.
I’m a die hard blue bleeding oval lover, but Chevy flat EMBARRASSED Ford & the GTD with the new ZR1.
Mission_Toe7437@reddit
I miss SVT too but to compare the Mustang GT of that era to today’s is apples to oranges. And I don’t think Ford is giving up yet against the ZR1z
OlYeller01@reddit
I was commenting more that back then, the top model Mustang was only a few grand more than a nice GT…not tens or even hundreds of thousands more. It was realistic to think that if you got a raise or a bonus, next time you’d trade your GT for a Mach or a Cobra. Now it’s more like you better win the lottery.
$35K back then is equal to $60-65K today. That won’t even get you a Dark Horse, much less a new Shelby.
Icing the supercharger is common even today as a means to avoid heat soak. Some racers will do it to their non-supercharged intake manifolds. There’s a big difference between that and true overheating.
The beauty of those Cobras was that they cost thousands less than the comparable Vette but would beat them at the track.
Mission_Toe7437@reddit
Oh yeah I see your point.
AWill33@reddit
They did the same thing with the GT40 to sell mustangs. Sponsor a racing program to sell halo cars… that gets discussions like this happening and people showing up for a mustang GT.
corporaterebel@reddit
I put my name in for a GT.
They called me up several times to sell me other cars. I told them I'll gladly bring down a check for a GT, but all your other stuff is crap and I don't want it.
I now have a McLaren and a NSX instead.
mar78217@reddit
Yea, I'll never understand why Ford thought it was a good idea to make the GT an exotic with very low production numbers rather than an actual competitor for the Corvette.
Jjmills101@reddit
They schooled everyone on speed and proved to their competitors exactly what us car guys have been yelling at them for the better part of 15 years. Make cars with soul, not spec sheets.
yll33@reddit
i wouldn't say they schooled anybody.
the corvette has been the people's sports car for a while now. the c7 gen competed well with exotics of its time when it was launched as well. the c7 z06 for example beat the mclaren 570s and the 991 911 turbo s, in a variety of metrics and around a variety of tracks, despite being a good bit cheaper. same with the zr1 and the 720s.
but the corvette isn't about exclusivity. chevy has always been happy to sell them to anybody, the more the better. so as others have mentioned, those r&d costs, and manufacturing costs, get distributed across an order of magnitude more vehicles.
and while someone like mclaren doesn't have the infrastructure to mass produce its cars if it wanted to, companies like mercedes for example with the amg gt really have no desire to build and sell tens of thousands of them. porsche isn't interested in selling a ton of turbo s's when they can make you buy a few cayennes first
no one has been sleeping on the corvette's capabilities, they just have a different sales strategy
Sufficient_Bid7075@reddit
Well first and foremost, the Corvette is not undercutting European brands. 765lt and GT3 RS buyers are not cross shopping with Corvettes.
GM’s brilliance in the ZR1 was winning the marketing game by strategically targeting key goals like lap times on certain tracks.
While most supercars attempt to defy the laws of physics by using exotic materials, cutting edge aerodynamics, and incredibly complex suspension systems, GM has stuck to the basics and pushed them as far as possible.
They make the Z06 and ZR1 as long and wide as possible. This allows them to run incredibly large tires and take advantage of the stability the extended wheelbase provides. It also allowed them to crank up the power in order to close the gap to other sports cars. The result has been some amazing performance numbers, but what do they actually mean to the driver?
I own a 2019 GT3 RS and had a 2024 Z06 w/Z07. When I had the cars next to each other, the C8 looked gargantuan compared to the RS. Pushing them both on track, they delivered similar lap times when on new tires, but the experience was completely different. The transmission in the C8 feels much worse than the PDK in the RS, and the suspension, steering, and brake feel in the C8 is essentially non existent compared to the RS. The C8 really feels like a computer on wheels and the role of the driver feels substantially diminished.
This becomes a real problem when the tires start to fall off, which happens much faster in the Z06 due to the increase size and weight. I felt that the car became incredibly unpredictable and hard to drive on track as the tires fell off, whereas the RS provides such good feedback to the driver that this is an easy adjustment. This is a very important area that is overlooked, because your tires are only new for a small handful of laps. But, most of us need them to last multiple days, because they are incredibly expensive to replace.
In summary, the Corvette team’s largest victory has been on the marketing front. The fact that this exact conversation is being had is undeniable proof of it. The C8 is an incredible budget option for people that can’t afford the European brands, but it’s not just as good or better. The justification for the price difference is incredibly apparent when driven side by side with other supercars.
backmafe9@reddit
>This allows them to run incredibly large tires
Bud, porsche has more tire/weight than corvette or any vehicle to that matter.
weight is the problem with c8 indeed. But they won't fall off that quick, maybe you had bad alignment.
Or, and there is 0% chance of 991.2 rs keeping up with z06 w z07 pack, even though rs has more tire/weight ratio.
Sufficient_Bid7075@reddit
I was running the factory track alignment setup on both cars. You’re welcome to reach out to the folks at Ron Fellows, and they’ll tell you a pro driver will burn the C8’s Cup2R’s in a single lap around a track like COTA. I’m not at that level, but doing a couple hot laps in the 2:18-2:19 range took most of the life from mine.
The Z06 was undoubtedly faster for me in the first session of the day on new tires, but the more important measurement is average lap time over a set of tires. The RS wins that every single time.
Why don’t you go buy both cars like I did and report back.
I wasn’t bringing up the tire size as some kind of shot at the C8. I was just trying to make the point that it wasn’t some secret sauce that’s made it a fast platform. Longer, wider, bigger tires, and more power. It’s a great recipe for making lap time leaderboards, but it’s largely antithetical to what makes a good sports car. Adding power isn’t cheap, but cutting weight and reducing size is much more expensive.
backmafe9@reddit
cup2R will start degrading after first lap on any car, not sure what do you mean.
Again, it does not have bigger tires for its weight. That's kinda the problem, which can be partially fixed with bigger front tires.
Agree overall on the weight issue. Very few modern cars kept under 1500kg, props to porsche for doing that still.
However, strut suspension also does not make a good sports car - in fact, it makes it crappy cheap thing.
Sufficient_Bid7075@reddit
Go buy a set of Porsche spec Cup2R’s and a set of Corvette spec Cup2R’s, and let us know which one burns out first. It sounds like you have a ton of first hand experience with these cars, so I assume that shouldn’t be an issue.
backmafe9@reddit
so you insist that porsche spec cup2R would be stable across say 6-7 laps and not fall off drastically?
Sufficient_Bid7075@reddit
Yes, I ran the OEM C8 spec Cup 2R ZP’s and the N0 spec Porsche Cup 2R on my Z06, albeit on different wheels. The C8 tires were marginally faster, but the Porsche tires delivered predictable performance for much longer.
This obviously becomes a much more drastic difference on the 911 that’s much lighter.
Commercial_Course735@reddit
Some idiots just refuse to pull their head out of their ass even when presented with first hand experiences otherwise. The guy you're replying to probably is a bench racer with 0 track time too.
Sufficient_Bid7075@reddit
It just proves my point that it’s the most effective marketing ever. These people are willing to stake their entire personality on a GM brochure and a Savagegeese video. It’s insanity.
Commercial_Course735@reddit
Fr, also note that while 6.49 is VERY fast for a ring time, a GT3 RS with less than half the power was only a few milliseconds behind with older tyre tech. Seems like a newer RS model would decimate the ZR1x time but that would definitely upset a lot of nationalists lmao.
backmafe9@reddit
You were talking out of your ass about my seattime just to shit yourself with ultra uneducated takes.
porsche spends years prior to record attempt (it's all over the yt) perfecting the car. the moment you remove precise setup+pro driver+god knows what modifications (surely fully caged car is not what you'll buy in the dealership) - it loses its advantage on any track on any test in the world. It is fast, but it is not blisteringly fast compared to others.
And everyone who had at least a bit of tracktime would understand that lower weight+higher DF+WAY more tire is the recipe to win, it's not like it's some forbidden porsche knowledge or know-how. Strictly for track noone would go for zr1x.
Commercial_Course735@reddit
Don't get your panties in a twist because I assumed something about your seat time lmao. The ZR1 isn't as good at cornering compared to something like a RS or even an ACR and just relies on brute force more so than other competitors to set records. Also, Cattell is a semi-pro/pro driver that just happens to be an engineer so that pro driver in Porsche point you made is kinda moot.
backmafe9@reddit
buddy they're 150-250 cars, not 5mil.
Also, I would've owned c8 z06 if not for stupid gearing (famous corvette problem not unique to z06...) and my concerns about weight and some viscerality factor.
Also, I'm not chasing outright track speed, rather fun and engaging (that's why porsche wasn't even in conversation to begin with, plenty of seattime in them made it sure)
I have not drive z06 version yet though, only regular c8 z51.
backmafe9@reddit
Lol, how did you even make such a note. I'm not pro but I do have some track time.
First hand experience is not always valid (n=1 duh), but in this case I might be wrong - no problem admitting that.
Unfortunate_moron@reddit
Somehow you're exactly right and exactly wrong at the same time. Right about the RS being amazing, but wrong because OP asked about the ZR1 which would leave both your cars for dead on the street or a track.
Sufficient_Bid7075@reddit
I absolutely agree with you. The ZR1 will absolutely destroy both my cars for the 4 laps it has fresh tires. After that, you’re left with a $200k+ car that provides terrible driver engagement, has a budget PDK knock off transmission, and you’re sitting in a $65k car interior. Those are the exact reasons I sold my Z06.
GM made an amazing platform for beating single lap records, but it isn’t some budget cheat code that negates the things that make higher end cars special.
This is just more proof that GM sold an internet full of people that will never own one of these cars, let alone track them, on the marketing.
bonestamp@reddit
Anecdotally, the ones I talk to at track days are. Several have switched from Porsches to Corvettes. But yes, this is a niche within a niche.
Sufficient_Bid7075@reddit
My argument there is that’s not what I consider cross shopping. I say that as a track rat that changes cars constantly without much rhyme or reason. I just find it incredibly unlikely that anyone is sitting in a Porsche dealership speccing their new PTS GT3 RS going “well it’s between this and the Chevrolet” which I would consider actual cross shopping.
Sufficient_Bid7075@reddit
My argument there is that’s not what I consider cross shopping. I say that as a track rat that changes cars constantly without much rhyme or reason. I just find it incredibly unlikely that anyone is sitting in a Porsche dealership speccing their new PTS GT3 RS going “well it’s between this and the Chevrolet,” which I would consider actual cross shopping.
Eastern-Channel-6842@reddit
Ferrari doesn’t make pickup trucks.
qasdrtr@reddit
the European brands charge more because they can…
KaiZX@reddit
But you can't buy it in Europe which is quite the big deal. Regulations definitely add a lot of complexity and costs and R&D time. Also, not sure if it's true anymore, I don't really expect it to be as fast on a track as a Lambo and that's OK because the purpose is different, but it's a lot of R&D.
Absentmindedgenius@reddit
Yeah, scale. A lot of the motortrain parts are interchangeable with their trucks. They went with a big torquey engine with pushrods instead of high revving overhead cams, which is a less expensive design. Less reliance on high revs also helps it to be faster off the line, and more responsive in general.
Unfortunate_moron@reddit
You're talking about the base Corvette. The ZR1 has a completely different engine.
Absentmindedgenius@reddit
DOHC in a Corvette. Interesting.
Monotask_Servitor@reddit
Same reason Nissan destroys them on a performance per $ basis with the GT-R, numbers, and the ability to share a lot of parts with their non-performance models.
Unfortunate_moron@reddit
The GT-R can't keep up with a Z06. How does it 'destroy' a ZR1?
Monotask_Servitor@reddit
I didn’t say it did, I said it destroyed euro Supercars on price/performance, for much the same reason that the Corvettes can
RedpilotG5@reddit
Does it really destroy them if Nissan can’t even produce it anymore? They sold less than 250 GtRs last year. Chevy sold 250 corvettes yesterday.
Monotask_Servitor@reddit
On a price to performance basis it certainly does or at least did when it was released.
Monotask_Servitor@reddit
On a price to performance basis it certainly does or at least did when it was released. Problem is Nissan barely updated it for 15 years and people got bored.
Nissan on the whole are in the shit as a company, and that’s not the GT-R’s fault. Probably the opposite, Nissan has been distracted by other stuff and neglected their performance cars.
Bag-o-chips@reddit
They likely don't. They have a small line off to the side that likely modifies standard corvettes. In addition, its not made from the same stuff as exotic cars. Limited use of Carbon fiber, lower grade, or it's just not as much. They outsource engineering to experts, and buy in volume. They can also substadize this just to make a point to buy the positive press the rest of their cars need so badly.
Unfortunate_moron@reddit
Lmao try again please
drmilesbennell@reddit
Something I’m not seeing mentioned a lot besides corvettes being produced in higher numbers than European supercars. The engines in them are basically pulled directly from the trucks which are MASSIVELY produced. So the engine is being built 100s of thousands of times a year for the trucks, lowering that overall cost to put one in a corvette.
Motohvayshun@reddit
Corvette engines are not built from trucks wtf
drmilesbennell@reddit
I don’t mean they’re just a swap from the truck but I was under the impression the engine was heavily based off the 6l v8s in the trucks. Is that totallly wrong?
Unfortunate_moron@reddit
Base engines have shared an architecture with truck engines over the past few generations. Not Z06 or ZR1 engines though; they're very different.
drmilesbennell@reddit
That makes sense. Thanks for the clarification!
Sleep_adict@reddit
So everyone is saying scale and that a big part of it but….
Non metal body is way cheaper to make and tool than the Alu or carbon used by supercars.
The engines are simple and share many parts with truck engines… all Ferrari are hand built pretty much.
Interior quality is obviously different.
Parts bin and software is massive. Even just designing the UX is expensive but Chevy has it already.
Sounds wild as well but sourcing power… you can lean on suppliers when you order billions $ not millions $
Footprint… Chevy and subsidiaries have resources and expertise to quality a car for sale in each country… smaller manufacturers struggle
Unfortunate_moron@reddit
Please tell us which components from the flat plane crank turbocharged ZR1 engine are shared with naturally aspirated cross plane crank truck engines.
Also, how many trucks use the DCT or suspension or brakes or body or chassis from the Vette? None.
mar78217@reddit
Well, Lamborghini, Ferrari, and McLaren do not design their cars to be drag cars they are for twisty, road courses. That said, I am sure the Corvette ZR1, like the 90s Honda NSX, can hold it's own with those brands on those courses as well.
ProfessionalKick8487@reddit
Well the ugly C8 isn't hand built for one so they can pump them out fast.. There isn't an import tax slapped on it. It's not that difficult to get a lot of power from a LS motor. It's mostly made out of plastics and cheap materials. It's not destroying the other manufacturers performance in reality. 0 to 60 mph isn't rocket ship fast. I think it's the ugliest Vette ever produced. Did Ferrari and Lamborghini have a bastard child. Lol.
K9WorkingDog@reddit
Mass production.
And old dudes still think their Chevy is special
india2wallst@reddit
I guess them being a massive company helps a lot.
Badenguy@reddit
Also cost to get the car crash tested, that’s in the millions, older Ferraris had dodge armrests, even Enzo couldn’t afford a US verified armrest, multiple models used VW side mirrors
Badenguy@reddit
Seats aren’t made of mountain cows or alcantera. Lots of specialty parts for sure but when you make a million cars a year, parts like an engine block, or brake rotors, Pennies on the dollar
CryRepresentative992@reddit
Economies of scale aside… GM can also afford to sell their halo car at cost or below just for the brand recognition and bragging rights.
martin509984@reddit
Sports cars are much cheaper to build than most people think, and GM has deep R&D pockets.
KarmaPolice6@reddit
The ZR1 is subsidized by the other higher-production Corvette models. It also isn’t built with significant amounts of exotic (expensive) materials throughout – for example, there’s no full carbon tub and the interior is essentially identical to the normal stingray.
May God help exotic car brands if GM ever decided to build something at a similar price point.
ReditTosser2@reddit
GM models for 2025: Chevy Trax, Chevy Trailblazer, Chevy Equinox, Chevy Equinox EV, Chevy Blazer, Chevy Blazer EV, Chevy Malibu, Chevy Silverado 1500, Chevy Silverado HD, Chevy Silverado EV, Chevy Tahoe, Chevy Suburban, Chevy Colorado, Chevy Express, GMC Sierra, GMC Canyon, GMC Terrain, GMC Acadia, GMC Yukon XL, GMC Savana Van, Buick Enclave, Buick Encore GX, Buick Envision, Buick Envista. In total, GM has approximately 20 distinct models across its brands for 2025. Kind of funny that the Corvette isn't even in this list when I searched for all 2025 GM makes.
Ferrari models for 2025:
Ferrari F80 Super Sports Car, Ferrari 12Cilindri Spider Convertible, Electric Ferrari Saloon/Crossover Electric, Ferrari 296 Speciale Super Sports Car, Ferrari SF90 Stradale Supercar.
GM sells/sold hundreds of thousands of junk ass cars to enable them to play around with the Corvette, a 72 year old design that for all intent and purpose should be so refined and ground-breaking, it should probably be a flying car/spaceship at this point. Except since every other car they build is a recall laden piece of shit they lose money on all the warranty work, which is why the Gobment owns them now. Too funny how Gobment Motors fits and nothing had to be changed.
SonOfMotherlesssGoat@reddit
I imagine fit finish and refinement of materials impact those costs.
There is likely to some degree the fact that they are expensive makes them objects of desire (Veblen goods) so there is a disincentive to make them less expensive.
nasadowsk@reddit
Ferrari isn't really known for build quality. Part of how Lamborghini got started was Ferraris built like crap back then.
SonOfMotherlesssGoat@reddit
They have expensive materials and are highly refined on fit and finish. I didn’t say quality or reliability. However I was given a ride in one once and we happened to hit a bit of a pot hole the suspensions ability to absorb the impact was amazing it showed the over engineering and I can see the expense there.
bonestamp@reddit
McLaren too... they actually charge extra if you want your car built to a higher assembly standard.
The_Shryk@reddit
Very true. Aston Martin showed their stitching and fitment in some video I saw and it was clearly handmade. Switching was uneven, panels didn’t line up QUITE perfectly. They said it was a selling point because a human made it not a machine.
I just thought it looked like shit… but I can’t afford one so maybe that’s why I think the shit build quality isn’t a selling point,
fobbyk@reddit
So say a company spends 50 mil to “engineer” one sports car. If they end up selling only one, the car should cost 50 mil + 20 grand of supplies. If they sell two cars, now each car costs only 25 mil plus 20 grand of supplies. Now, let’s say they sell 10,000 cars. Only 5 grand per each car plus the supplies! This is why supercars are expensive.
Over_Pizza_2578@reddit
Units sold, place of manufacturing, exclusivity and material choice.
Chevrolet makes more corvettes than Ferrari and mc laren cars combined. I tooling cost spreads across more cars. Especially drive train development is expensive
Place of manufacturing. Since you used USD as currency you got additional import taxes on European cars, even more now than a few years ago. Same thing works the other way around. A ford mustang gt is a 85k euro car, dark horse starts at 106k. Thats 99k and 122k USD respectively. The US price for the gt is 46k USD, 51k for the gt premium (same spec as the EU version) and the gt at 65k. Mind you the EU prices are with austrian sales taxes whereas the US prices dont include them. Nevertheless a pretty big cost difference.
You expect some exclusivity when going to a ferrari or Lamborghini dealer. Same cant be said for Chevrolet. Also Chevrolet is a generic mass market brand whereas the others are exotic boutique brands. Same reason why the genesis g90 failed. Close to s class luxury at a fraction of the cost but nobody would wants a CEO level car from a Hyundai or kia dealer.
Materials. Have you seen the interior of a current mc laren? Everything is carbon fiber or carbon fiber wrapped in Alcantara. Body panels? Everything is carbin fiber. Even the damn frunk is carbon fiber. Similar story for other super car and hyper car brands
Volslife@reddit
Well the power is just off twin turbo kit from Borg Warner. It's not overly complicated for today's time. I bet Chevy is paying chump change for thousands of turbo kits from Borg Warner. We are comparing overpriced cars to overpriced cars. HP and Torque is cheap. Any basic V8 with a SC or Turbo kit can make 700-900 at the engine without any additional mods other than that power adder kit. For Manufacturers bigger injectors, bigger exhaust, different tuning, etc is minimal in additional cost vs lower power variants.
Sands43@reddit
They likely min/maxed it. All the money is in the motor. Sit in one and it will not be like a AMG, RS6 or M5.
I’d like to see actual track times, not 1/4 mile times.
poodles_and_oodles@reddit
fuckin lol. it's just a done up chevy small block. there's no replacement for displacement, brah
Much_Box996@reddit
Drive it and it will make you forget about those lessor cars
yugami@reddit
As an absolutely avid anti GM guy, this is the least educated comment here.
Graywulff@reddit
Garbage man’s companion is the best I have heard, especially considering the price of the Denali or Escalade.
It’d be cool if they made other sporty cars.
Or a good entry car. A friend had an old cavalier z model, manual, cool high school car with the engine and gearbox.
Lordert@reddit
For straight acceleration, a Kia EV can do 0-60 3.2s, Hyundai can do 2.8s. That would make the eyes water and no one would hear you.
gwestr@reddit
The COTA top speeds were ridiculous.
Legitimate-Fly4797@reddit
I think you’re confusing the Corvette ZR1 with the Camaro ZL1, and even then, you’d still be wrong.
PerformanceDouble924@reddit
Like the 5 track records they've already broken?
2025 Corvette ZR1 Breaks 5 US Track Records - Kelley Blue Book https://share.google/xnAbsfAlWpewNKApI
tblax44@reddit
And that's with the development team driving, not paid professional drivers. Everyone mentions how they compete with SCCA and are good drivers and I don't want to take that away, but they're still not career racecar drivers.
Sad-Corner-9972@reddit
It rolls down the same assembly line as base models-economy of scale. You’re right about the performance plus reliability: it’s impressive.
Elephunk05@reddit
How many corvette fans does it take to fill a sub? Me too.
Every one is talking scale. But that is only half of the story:
In the late 90s they Corvette race team adopted the Cadillac magnetic suspension and found both performance and ride quality.
Cadillac, being a GM company, was already vertically integrated and, in 2003, producing an LS platform with the magnetic suspension. Enter the V.
Naturally this suspension became an option for Corvettes in 2003. A decade later it was the benchmark. Ferrari had to start using this suspension to stay competitive. Enter the 2013 race season where this platform, under Cadillac, dominated the track.
Corvette seems to have kept a commitment to produce a supercar at realistic prices. It is the dealers who have gone crazy.
bonestamp@reddit
Adaptive suspension is a game changer around town too. There's this one annoying dip in the road near my house, there's no way around it, you have to drive over it if you need to travel this road. Every car I've ever owned loses any sort of sophistication going over that dip at 45 mph. Enter adaptive suspension, completely solves it.
FishMan4807@reddit
Why worry about it? You likely can’t afford it. I know I can’t, not even close.
It IS pretty cool, tho!
(And the answer is Economies of Scale)
Spiritual_Ostrich_63@reddit
Europoors riding on rep and getting caught w/ pants down.
It happens.
damnmykarma@reddit
A G-Shock is a better time keeper than any Rolex you can buy. Why do people choose the mechanical one?
Tractorguy69@reddit
Because your not posting a prestige tax, anything gm is simply the domain of beer swilling blue collar types, not refined and nat seen well in the circles that are willing to pay that tax to be insulated in their preferred circles
Beef_Candy@reddit
Have you looked at the quality of materials or general craftsmanship of a Corvette?
It's an impressive machine where it counts, performance numbers. Everything else about it is laughable at best.
pzoony@reddit
Euro exotics aren’t real cars. They’re garage builds and prestige purchases. Pieces of absolute shit designed to go 20k before a rebuild and marketed to Saudi sheiks and influencer douchebags.
With the exception of Porsche of course. Those are definitely real cars.
Key-Chart-3170@reddit
It still looks goofy, no matter how it performs.
Kangaru82@reddit
The Corvette is also a mild loss leader, in the way it brings people into the showroom. It makes money, but not like Trucks and Crossovers.
Most car companies have an aspirational car that carries the design language and shares components with other models that do sell. The Corvette engine is partially shared with Truck engines, where they make the real money…also helping keep the Corvette costs low.
Substantial_Team6751@reddit
It's probably not that the ZR1 is that much cheaper to build, it's just that the other supercar makers just charge a lot more. The >1M euro Bugatti Veyron didn't cost that because it cost so much to build. It is what the market would buy it for.
Porsche, Lamborghini, and Ferrari are going to price their cars at what they can sell for. The price has nothing to do with the cost to build. If they could get twice as much right now, they would charge it.
Tangboy50000@reddit
The original Bugatti Veyron cost $6.25 million per car to build, when you divide the R&D by the number of vehicles built. Volkswagen lost money on every one they built. They knew they were going to lose their ass on it, but it was used to showcase what Bugatti engineering was capable of.
Substantial_Team6751@reddit
The Veyron was designed to be a loss leader. Nobody knows how VW arrived at the actual cost per car to build. They probably wanted a big write off.
In any case, my point is that the cost to produce a car has little to do with the MSRP. The MSRP is going to be what the market will bear.
NOISY_SUN@reddit
So if you are ONLY comparing raw numbers, it’s a complete mystery beyond “economies of scale” and “parts bin.”
But that doesn’t really tell the whole story.
To get a better idea, it helps to sit in something like an SF90 or a Revuelto. The quality and level of materials is way different. Just as an example, the leather in every Ferrari is sourced from countries where barbed wire is illegal (so as not to have marks on the skin), and each and every stitch is hand-sewn by a little old Italian lady.
That’s not what they do in Kentucky, where Corvettes are made, and things like that add to the Ferrari cost. Do little old Italian ladies with sewing machines lower the track time? They do not.
But Ferrari does a lot of things like that throughout the car so that driving a Ferrari feels special to drive in a way that driving a Corvette does not. And that feel in every little part is what drives up the price. And if anyone tells you that driving a Corvette feels exactly the same as driving a Ferrari, they are lying to you.
That, plus you’re paying for the Ferrari badge.
highersense@reddit
You've fallen for marketing badly im afraid. I recently saw a YouTube vid of a guy grabbing a huracan interior and everything squeaks and is plastic.
Ferrari high end models and lambo high end models might be different but ain't no old Italian seamstress breaking her back on a roma
NOISY_SUN@reddit
Oh yeah everything squeaks for sure. Hand-built doesn’t mean well-built. But it does cost more.
highersense@reddit
The lambos are cheap materials not handbuilt looks just like any other vag interior, huracan I'm talking about idk about others.
Much_Box996@reddit
There are no little old ladies sewing interior. Driving them is the same. Once going everything disappears, you dont see the seats or whatever.
AcanthisittaFine7697@reddit
It goes so fast and the only people who drive it are 65 -75 year old men. On Sunday mornings 3 times a year .
ISaidItSoBiteMe@reddit
The 3 old boomers that own corvettes around have the same weekend circuit - Dunkin’ Donuts for breakfast, Nifty Fifties (50s style burger joint) for lunch or car show, McDonalds for dinner - like clockwork, every weekend
51line_baccer@reddit
Cause it is cheaper.
longtimerlance@reddit
Fit, finish and quality.
LagerHead@reddit
For starters it's a GM, which means it's worth less than comparable European cars. In fact, to me it's worth less than an uncomfortable pair of shoes.
Solid_Enthusiasm550@reddit
They so many more vehicles to offset the little bit of money they make on "Flagship" models.
They also can use these vehicles as test models for using what they learned on other models. The" trickle down effect", using some of these parts in other platforms/models. Like how the ls engine found its way in camaros, caddys, pickups.
Compared to ferrari and mclarens that use expensive carbon fiber, chevy uses heavier aluminum and steel.
When you buy in extreme bulk quantities, the price for parts/materials drops considerably.
captain_sta11@reddit
A lot of reasons. But my best guess is that Chevy is making less per vehicle than the European equivalents. They can’t really afford to charge the same. If they charge equivalent to a McLaren or Ferrari, are you buying the Chevy or are you buying the McLaren? Most people in that price point are probably going McLaren. Chevy could make the best supercar ever, and people in that upper higher price point are still going to choose the European car. The Ferraris, mclarens, Lamborghinis are status symbols. The Chevy, no matter how good of a car it is, just isn’t a status symbol in the same way. Someone spending half a million dollars unless they really like Chevys or Corvettes, isn’t going to buy a Chevy. Someone at that price point doesn’t care about maintenance costs in the same way.
YouInternational2152@reddit
Yes, it's margins. For example, the Porsche 911 has nearly a 50% profit margin. Higher end 911 models can exceed 60%.
PhysicsAndFinance85@reddit
They're mass producing Corvettes and adding higher performance models on top of that. High volume production of the base car makes things relatively cheap. Low volume production of cars is insanely expensive.
That-Resort2078@reddit
Economies of scale. The Corvette has always been the best bang for the buck.