Report: Mercedes-Benz & BMW in Advanced Talks to Share 4-Cylinder Engines
Posted by Sixteen-Cylinders@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 114 comments
Posted by Sixteen-Cylinders@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 114 comments
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit
The B48 is a significantly better entry level engine than Mercedes has ever produced.
It is reliable, fuel efficient, and produces a good amount of power, while passing the new Euro emissions standards.
Why wouldnt they?
Hard_Corsair@reddit
Because why would you get an C-Class with a B48 over a 3-Series with a B48?
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit
Does the average C Class buyer care about the engine as long as it works?
Most really only care about the Mercedes Badge, it is a status symbol, the BMW logo just doesnt have the same brand cachet.
Hard_Corsair@reddit
Empty brand cachet won't last forever.
Their platform is worse than BMW. Their interior quality is worse than BMW. Their AWD system is worse than BMW. Now they're waving a white flag and admitting their engines are worse as well?
Once upon a time, watch buyers really only cared about the Omega logo; it was a status symbol, and the Rolex logo just didn't have the same brand cachet. Look how that turned out.
Few_Jellyfish_9955@reddit
You're making stuff up, their interior quality is not worse, and neither is their 4 Matic system. When it comes to all models E Class and up, Mercedes outshine Bmw in nearly every aspect. People who have big money and taste will always choose the S Class, G Wagon, and higher end AMG models. The new E class is miles ahead of the new 5 series as well, and Mercedes design language (besides their ev's) is actually incredible.
flyeagle2121@reddit
The interiors are pretty close these days, you can argue there's cheap parts in both (plastic in Benz, plastic in BMW lol, plastic in all the brands). As far as interior looks/designs, you really have to go model by model /competition..X1 blows the GLA out the water but the new E probably is better than the new 5.
Hard_Corsair@reddit
Many reviewers state otherwise, even on high end models.
Feel free to correct me if you have better information, but my understanding of their non-AMG models is that they use open differentials and then use their brakes/electronic stability control for torque vectoring. This is simply not as good as using clutch packs or limited-slip differentials.
Hitchen's Razor
The3rdbaboon@reddit
I suppose because most buyers couldn’t care less about who built the engine and people like different brands.
Hard_Corsair@reddit
Sure, but people like brands because those brands do something well. Mercedes is reaching a point where they don't seem to be doing anything well.
The3rdbaboon@reddit
That is true, but you could say the same about BMW.
Hard_Corsair@reddit
To the contrary, BMW seems to be coming up all aces these days.
Sure, the new M5 has a weight problem, but compare that to the backlash from MB having a weight problem AND ditching the V8 on the C63.
The3rdbaboon@reddit
Hideous designs and the quality has gone to shit, the 3 series is pretty much the only model left that they haven't ruined, maybe the X3 and X5 as well, but I'm sure they'll get to making those ugly af soon. But to be honest there's very few new cars coming out now that id have any interest in owning, the whole industry is going to shit.
Fit_Equivalent3610@reddit
>Hideous designs
Sorry, but we're in the minority on this. Sales are up at BMW across the board compared with, e.g. 2018.
flyeagle2121@reddit
A lot of people think the new stuff is ugly or weird looking but they like the drive and tech/ "are BMW people."
JiveXP@reddit
the thing about designs is that they're subjective
thesecretbarn@reddit
Have you ever had a conversation with the average consumer?
Hard_Corsair@reddit
Yes, I've worked in sales. As a result, I've had customer relationships last long enough to see people give up on their favorite brand as they realize that it no longer provides whatever enamored them to the brand in the first place.
Realistic_Village184@reddit
Yeah, people on this sub massively overestimate how much most people know about cars. When I bought my 330i, the salesman literally didn't know what the B48 was, and it's his job to know about the current models of BMW.
I'd bet good money that well over half the population couldn't even tell you how many cylinders their car has or how many gears their transmission has. Most people are interested in things like colors, exterior design, cupholder location, etc.
BWFTW@reddit
I get the vibe that many people in this sub are just chronically online at this point. The amount of times I've talked to non car people and asked something like "oh that's the e550, that's twin turbo v8 right?" for them to respond with something like "oh ya it's a v8, real powerful motor, idk what turbos mean, but I know it's got that power".
Realistic_Village184@reddit
Exactly! One thing that surprised me the other day is I was talking to someone and somehow chassis codes came out. Like the current chassis for the BMW 3-series is the G20. The person had no idea that chassis codes were a thing. Once I explained it, they understood, but the need for chassis codes is just something that never occurred to them before. I grew up around car culture, so it's one of those little things that I took for granted assuming everyone knows.
BWFTW@reddit
Yes 100% aha. I find it so funny when enthusiasts are like "how could not know your chassis code?!". It's not a hard concept to explain, but it's not really something the average person cares about or really needs to care about. Somewhat related my father and I are massive porsche guys and we still have a hard time guessing a 991.1 to 992.2 at a distance, so we make a fun bet whenever we see one together to see which it is haha. Honestly I get caught out sometimes on 996 vs 997 from the rear if I'm not paying attention
eatallthecoookies@reddit
Looks better, is more comfortable and doesn’t have BMW stigma. For me the the biggest issue with bmw was the interior inspired by diamonds and sharp angles. It just looks so bad and the gauges look so ridiculous that I just couldn’t look at them every day.
And bmw looks too much like a police car, merc is used much less often as an emergency vehicle
Hard_Corsair@reddit
Conversely, MB interiors are regarded as poor quality and are frequently described as having a "strip club aesthetic".
BMWs are used as police cars, but MBs are used as taxis so I feel like that point is moot.
Ran4@reddit
The taxi drivers have mostly gone over to the EQE now though, due to its absurd range.
PmMeForPCBuilds@reddit
Most of the driving character comes from the transmission and software tuning anyways
jerpear@reddit
Dunno, but I'd definitely get a C class with a B48 over a C class with a M264.
carbon_ape@reddit
Yea I don't get these comments.
There b58 it's the most decorated wards engine to ever be built.
The b48 alos has won the award countless times....why wouldn't mercedes want it?
Ghost1k25@reddit
It’s about the same as Adidas losing their contract with the German national soccer team to Nike. If you ignore all the context and history, it’s a nothing burger.
Skodakenner@reddit
Its just a bit embarrassing thats all seeing that mercedes guys always made fun of bmws and now they use their engines
_BEER_@reddit
Its an entry level engine who cares. They've been using Renault engines for years now.
Ghost1k25@reddit
Renault isn’t their biggest rival in history and they don’t use those engines in the E-class.. for now lol
PanadaTM@reddit
Ford and GM have also collaborated on components. Realistically if the European car market is gonna survive and compete with Chinese pricing they need to start working together a little more.
JournalistExpress292@reddit
Mercedes x Coolant issues incoming
MRtokeALOT420@reddit
The benefit for Mercedes is access to an engine that will be compliant with the upcoming Euro 7 emissions rules and is also well-suited to use in plug-in hybrids, while avoiding spending money on development.
Seems to be a strategical move on mercedes part. This will be feature on most of its SUV models so definitely going to get its money worth. Guessing the deal will net BMW billions in the upcoming years.
RiftHunter4@reddit
It's a fantastic engine, but for a major automaker to buy things from their closest competitor is just embarrassing. However, it's pretty telling about what Mercedes-Benz priorities are. They don't really care about this entry-level stuff. They'd rather put the R&D into the products with bigger margins, especially since entry-level buyers won't really care about the details. And if they do, it's a B48 engine so it's a positive. Hopefully they spend the development money elsewhere to improve reliability and come up with something besides gimmicks to sell cars.
mynameisjberg@reddit
Eh, it's like Apple buying screens from Samsung.
Few-Letterhead-371@reddit
Toyota took a BMW engine for their Supra a growing trend in today's society 😅
akadic@reddit
Entire car actually, not just an engine
gimpwiz@reddit
It's like Apple buying screens from Samsung if they had a 80-or-whatever year history of making their own screens in their own factories...
mynameisjberg@reddit
Sure, there are differences, but it's not like this is the first time competitors have entered a mutually beneficial arrangement
gimpwiz@reddit
Certainly it's not the first time, but some of those times were really embarrassing. Like this time.
SneakyFcknRusky@reddit
Wait till you hear about automatic transmissions. Almost all manufacturers made their own and switched to outsourcing them.
It’s not embarrassing to outsource engine production than try catch up to a mature technology that was not really part of Mercedes history until recently.
ManufacturerBest2758@reddit
Right. The better analogy is LG buying screens from Samsung.
victorinseattle@reddit
I mean, LG supplies the WOLED panels to Samsung for their OLED TVs. (Samsung still produces their own QD-OLED)
chiggenNuggs@reddit
Exactly. Powertrain has always been like one of the core competencies for pretty much every major OEM. Yes there has always been some sharing and cross-pollination, but since the dawn of the automobile, your weren’t really taken seriously as an OEM unless you had your own captive, proprietary powertrains that could differentiate you from your competitors. It’s one of the fundamental aspects of a vehicle that contributes to not only the feel of a vehicle but the identity of the brand.
This is less the case with electric motors, which I think has influenced some of this decision making at Mercedes. They’re more likely to view these powertrains simply as an interchangeable component, like a battery or electric motor and are going to focus on maintaining brand differentiation through things like their software and user interfaces (which is disappointing to traditional auto enthusiasts lol).
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Bit of a difference in that screen regulations don't change like emissions regulations do
Montague-Withnail@reddit
It definitely will have lost them a few buyers- my Grandfather was looking for a diesel hatchback and after driving Fords most of his life wanted something a bit more ‘premium’ for what may well be his last car- ended up totally discounting the A-Class as soon as he found out most of the models he was considering had the Renault engine and bought a 118d.
HalfFrozenSpeedos@reddit
Mercedes has a Renault diesel engine in the A class (same engine you can find in the dacia Sandero/Duster
grumpypantaloon@reddit
Mercedes was also using the 1.3 petrol engines, which was in part also co-developed by Daimler, but for the most part it's Renault/Nissan angine. However, the Renault partnership seems to be nearing its end, they partnered with Geely to developer more engines together.
entrotec@reddit
The priorities are electric. The old powertrain divisions have been dismantled to a large degree, eDrive is 100% the way forward. This has little to do with margins.
Make no mistake: this move exists only because the switch to EVs is going slower than anticipated. The ICE has no future within MB, all internal capacities have been either re-allocated or they are gone.
cpufreak101@reddit
It's also a sign of the times, developing engines to meet more and more stringent emissions regulations at the same time as pouring tons of R&D money into EVs is likely to just end in only a few engine manufacturers remaining selling to everyone else
velociraptorfarmer@reddit
And for BMW it's a win since anyone who works in manufacturing knows that as volume increases, per-unit costs (usually) go down.
thejetssuckbigtime@reddit
New Mercedes slogan:
The best or bmw?
ApplianceSpecialist@reddit
BMW is the best and will continue to be the best. Mercedes is like driving a RAV4 lol 😂
DrProtic@reddit
I wouldn’t be surprised if more German companies start sharing stuff. This is about surviving Chinese.
6786_007@reddit
I've hear both sides of the Chinese car stuff. On one hand the value proposition is really good, on the other, a lot of issues and poor saftey standards and quality is covered up and car reviewers are being sued for speaking their mind. Until they actually show up for people to buy and find out for themselves, I doubt we'll get the full truth of it.
TheThunderbird@reddit
They're available to buy. They're available to buy in the largest automobile market worldwide, both in terms of demand and supply. They're competing head to head with Mercedes, BMW, VW, etc. in that market, and in markets around the world. The US is the exception in not having Chinese cars, not the rule. Go to Europe, order an UberX, and see what you get picked up in.
6786_007@reddit
I didn't know Europe already had Chinese EVs that's very interesting.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
The US does as well, the Polestar 2, 3, 4 are all on sale and the Volvo EX30 is a Geely platform too.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
From personal experience at least here, the answer to that question is "Camry"
TheThunderbird@reddit
I don't think I can say I've ever been in a Camry as an Uber in Europe. Lots of Skoda, lots of MG, and of course lots of Prii. In the US, I've gotten a few Camry's but I don't think that will last since they're no longer eligible for Comfort.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Here it's RAV4, Camry or Model 3 all day, and we have even less IMPORT RESTRICTIONS than Europe.
Having sat in the back of some MGs, the ZS was tolerable but the MG4 somehow makes a Camry feel luxurious in the rear. I'd be a bit upset if one pulled up as my expensive Uber.
Automod ate my first reply
TheThunderbird@reddit
Oh boy, you'd hate South America! Your Uber there can easily be a clapped out 15 year old Yaris.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Even for the upper tiers of Uber?
TheThunderbird@reddit
No, but upper tiers of Uber are typically only available in the big cities, if at all. Similar to SEA, if you've been there (since it seems like you're in Australia). But, of course, you wouldn't get an MG in anything above an UberX in Europe.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
I am indeed! Low tier Uber is fun though, I rented a Daihatsu YRV through low tier carshare once
TheThunderbird@reddit
You can get a ride from an Uber Moto in a lot of places, which is a ride on the back of a motorbike/scooter.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Ah, I'm not brave enough for that!
Also, driving a 2003 supermini really made me appreciate my own 2003 supermini more. The cars felt a decade apart even though they were released only a year apart and sold together
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bmwblog@reddit
It all comes down to how much money BMW needs because giving great engines to your competitors, it's not always the best idea.
DropItLikeChar@reddit
Looking at this from a different perspective, the more B48's the better. I think the B48 + ZF8hp combo is going to be the next LS/K20 swap. They make good power, are lightweight, fuel efficient, smooth, all the good stuff. There's the B58 for big power.
leedle1234@reddit
Is this something actually feasible for a normal person considering the amount of sensors and ecu management on these current engines?
Like can you just hook an aftermarket ECU to these things with just a few key sensors?
redonculousesss@reddit
Not at all. BMW swaps will never be feasible. The next big thing is Coyote swaps
9up999@reddit
The next big thing is already vw 2.5 5 cylinder engines. There is plenty of them. They are small and turbo kits go tu tu ps ps. They are very cheap too.
Crystal-Ammunition@reddit
Coyotes love boost like no engine I've ever seen. They're hard to fit in cars though.
redonculousesss@reddit
Yeah that engine is gigantic, realistically I don’t think anything will ever be more common than LS swaps for that reason but coyotes are getting popular
Buffyoh@reddit
M-B brass need to study the history of Packard because M-B is headed down the same road.
I_m_p_r_e_z_a@reddit
On Packards defense, a license built British engine gave the world one of the best aircraft to graze the skies
Buffyoh@reddit
Without doubt - Packard's problems arose from marketing - not from their excellent engineering.
Starboy141@reddit
The enemy of my enemy, is my friend
The two German automakers have a common threat, which is the Chinese automakers. Although the Chinese automakers produce considerably high-end cars for incredibly low price for the mass market, their cars are soulless and less fun to drive. For this aspect, most consumers wouldn't even care. As long as the car they bought doesn't break the bank, convenient to maintain, cheap to repair, and quick to get parts. They don't really care about the others.
Moreover, German cars were stereotyped as expensive to maintain and repair, because the average consumer tends to ignore the car's recommended service schedule. And doing this to a German car hurts their wallet more than the car. If the schedules were followed, it doesn't hurt at all (unless it's a lemon).
Mercedes strategy to source the best engine for their lower tier range is wise. Having BMW's reputable B48 engine in their lower tier models is strategic and might be effective and efficient for their business model altogether. They can shift their R&D cost towards their even premium lineups, like the S-class, G class, AMG, and Maybach. To be realistic, people buy the lower tier Mercedes/BMW for their badge. From where I'm from, the Mercedes x200 and the BMW x20i sells like hot cake. True luxury from the German automakers only starts with their top tier lineup. So, having the B48 engine in their hood, it is great in most ways.
EngagedGroomsPodcast@reddit
It sounds like MB went too heavy, too fast into full electrification, got caught with their pants down with not enough time/R&D budget to update their engines, amd instead of doing the Volvo and continuing to run a line of engines that are a generation or two behind as a stop gap, is just buying the best version of what’s out there.
BMW seems to have made all the right moves in its product planning by comparison.
This could also be a larger issue of the slow encroaching death of the German car industry.
Scazitar@reddit
The B48 is a great engine, solid reliability and great performance.
Pretty fast way to improve the reputation of their entry level/lower power lineups & try to make them more desirable.
In a way it sounds gross, but this has been a pain point for them for a while, and this is a pretty solid option.
grumpypantaloon@reddit
I had the B48 in X1 2016, did 2 years./50tkm with it without even one drop of oil needed to be topped up between intervals.
There are some...not too few to ignore..reports of some oil leakage, mostly after 100tkm, but also it is mostly attributed to same reasons VW TSI engines in the first iterations of 1.4tsi had issues with oil leaks/consumption - city driving at low rpm. Doesn't matter if it is petrol or diesel engine, it freakin needs to get revved, it needs to be under load, even a car that never leaves the city and drives 50-70kmh most of the time, take it to a city highway or something, step on it. All the dozens of different seals need the pressure, the turbo needs to spool. The b48 was also quite economical, comparing it to 2.0TSI, in similar sized car, even smaller, I am getting about +1L per 100km of fuel consumption I was doing with b48, of course the 8speed Aisin could have been the more significant reason over the 7DSG. And in cars with ZF8 + B48 the combo seems even more efficient.
TheSkyline35@reddit
They have been using Renault engine for a decade on their entry power engines and nobody batt an eye
The-CaT-is-a-lie@reddit
Isn’t there a Geely engine under the hood of new CLA?
grumpypantaloon@reddit
yes, the partnership with Renault is basically thing of the past, they used 1.5 and 1.6 diesels, that were also partly co-developed by Daimler, the 1.3 petrol was mainly done by Nissan, but all new models use engines that have nothing to do with Renault/Nissan
EloeOmoe@reddit
Dunn if it is Geely but it is made in China.
bazhvn@reddit
Merc engine manufactured by Horse which is joint-venture of Renault and Geely.
danemepoznaqt@reddit
Really? I must've heard "lol as if I'm going to get an MB with a renault engine" a thousand times at this point.
bippos@reddit
Ask that question in this sub and you might find some
Hy8ogen@reddit
Precisely. Their entry level lineup has been using Renault engines for a long time now and this is a decision to move to BMW engines instead.
They will still make their own engines for their higher trims.
cofango@reddit
Almost as if BMW is universally known as a competitor to Mercedes than Renault.
n1naboostarfighter@reddit
Yall beemer nggaz is cooked
Trades46@reddit
The B48 destroys the M254. Mercedes really doesn't put as much thought and design in their entry level products as BMW, and it shows in the powertrain department.
I suspect the bigger M256 and B58 would likely remain separate in the upper end of the market, but Mercedes has shown to often outsource their smaller entry level products to other OEMs.
SalvageZA@reddit
Samsung sources OLED and LCD panels from LG for their TVs. The practice of sourcing components from your competitors in an industry isn’t that uncommon, where your competitor has an advantage in manufacturing or other areas.
reddit_user42252@reddit
Or the Eu could just get rid of Euro 7. ICE are one the way out anyway so why bother? Euro companies are very good at ice, keep shooting yourself in the foot. end rant.
cajunaggie08@reddit
Considering the BENZ part of Mercedes-Benz is famous for designing a two-stroke engine to put in the first working automobile, i'd say its a big deal for the same company to now outsource its engines.
SnikySquirrel@reddit
They’ve outsourced their engines before, that isn’t new. This is more notable because it’s a direct competitor’s engine though.
costafilh0@reddit
4cl?
NOBODY: cares.
Spetz@reddit
"While Mercedes recently launched a new turbocharged 1.5-liter four-cylinder in the CLA-class hybrid, it is reportedly not currently engineered for use in traditional plug-in hybrids or as a range-extender."
That was a catastrophically short sighted decision.
flapsmcgee@reddit
I don't get how it can work in a hybrid but not a plug in hybrid. They both work the same way, the plug in just has a bigger battery and motor.
Spetz@reddit
Voltage compliance with starter motor and start stop? Maybe it’s all wired for a higher voltage in a PHEV?
EloeOmoe@reddit
Can pretty much be said about most car manufacturer decisions over the past five years.
Master-Mission-2954@reddit
Lots of emotions here. Truth: Real consumers won't care. If you're buying base, you're buying a badge, interior quality and exterior design. Engine buyers will definitely be AMG customers.
Ran4@reddit
While Mercedes isn't exactly great at all of these things anymore, you're also often buying better:
Yes, even for the base models. The A class when released was technologically one of the most advanced cars out there (including E segment cars).
Master-Mission-2954@reddit
Which adds context to the argument of consumers caring more about what powers the performance models vs not caring at all at the base level. I was thinking more BMW when I typed out my comment, but Mercedes' struggles could be due to the very fact that they've thrown a 4 cylinder at everything. I don't know how the C43 is performing with consumers, but I do know two facts: 1) The C63 bombed because of the 4-cylinder and 2) The 3/4 Series are killing it in respect to the entire class. While there isn't data (that I can find) that separates the inline 6 from the inline 4 in respect to BMW, I can gather from sales information that BMW may be moving more M-lite models vs AMG-lite by a quantity of ~2-to-1. This could imply that maybe Mercedes views it smart to have the Benz lineup with a run-of-the-mill 4-cylinder from 'who cares' (BMW in this case) while saving the real engineering bucks and energy for their AMG (and Maybach, I guess) lineup.
Also, maybe they can throw some newfound energy at creating a better NVH experience because, oh boy have they dropped the ball there.
sixsix_@reddit
The world’s changed. Their competitors aren’t in Stuttgart, they’re in Shenzhen
Spicywolff@reddit
Times are tough for internal combustion, and the way the winds are blowing. it’s gonna be very expensive and very stringent to keep these platforms going.
It makes sense that the auto manufacturer goes to another that already has a compliant engine and just buys it from them. Saves a ton of R&D, tooling, fabrication, and inventory cost.
Boggie135@reddit
Blasphemy
derritterauskanada@reddit
As much of a good decision this ultimately is, the optics are really bad for Mercedes' prestige, especially in Germany.
EmergencyRace7158@reddit
Makes a lot of sense imho. German 2.0 turbo I4s are pretty much a commodity these days. There's very little differentiation among them and they're all similarly competent but characterless motors. Everyone should really just switch to using VW/Audi's inline 4 turbo and call it a day.
KingstonEagle@reddit
If a small Mercedes coupe/sedan gets a B48 and is in the US it would immediately shoot to the top of my list as long as Mercedes doesn’t royally mess everything else up about the car
StrangeSmellz@reddit
Oh merc