People have legit complaints about the Model S pricing and its age.
But in response I would say this, as someone who test drove the competition (Lucid, Taycan) before leasing a '25 Plaid as my daily driver, also own a 991.2 GT3.
* the Model S is still, from technology and practicality standpoint, heads and shoulders better
* Even with price increases, still cheaper than the competition
* as old as it is, still very good looking in a conservative way
* in Plaid trim, just disgustingly fast
The rear trunk is not a hatchback on a Lucid, I can't get my bikes back there.
Charges slower...not a problem for me, I home charge.
Less range? Maybe, but I'll trade that off for a car that doesn't have countless software issues. Even in 2024 when I test drove, the demo Air GT's touchscreen rebooted mid drive.
They do drive better than the Model S, I'll give it that.
I did not get enough of that Porsche fizz in the Taycan. Especially since the Taycan GTS I intended to lease was $2650 a month compared to the $1000+ cheaper lease payment I have on my Plaid.
The Taycan has superior steering and athleticism, the interior, fit and finish are miles ahead. That said, it was substantially slower than the Plaid, especially over 60mph, it had a much smaller/spacious interior, the trunk is tiny, and as I said before the tech interface is just a generation behind.
I would overlook all of those Taycan shortcomings if it delivered the driving experience of my 911 but it just doesn't.
You’re out of date on electric cars. Plaid was the first consumer EV that still has bite after 0-70mph. Even the new Model 3 Performance hits a 10.x sec quarter mile, whereas the old one was nowhere near that.
I have a plaid, I also have a corvette and a 2006 ford gt.
The plaid is the quickest but can I get to my destination faster? No. It'll take me longer on road trips to cross the country.
On the race track? Its not faster than any of the above mentioned as it can't corner and wont sustain high levels of performance until the battery starts complaining of overheating and will drop performance.
So yes. It is very quick, it is not fast. I can get from point a to point b faster with other cars if A and B is not on a straight line.
If I want to go fast on the straights, I have a 73 camaro drag car thats faster than the plaid.
> The plaid is the quickest but can I get to my destination faster? No. It'll take me longer on road trips to cross the country.
Alright, you win, champ.
I’d think, as an EV owner, you’d be especially attuned to when moving the goal posts is not arguing in good faith. Especially when you leave your argument with a dumb one-liner “quick, not fast” and not give every single one of these caveats along with it.
> If I want to go fast on the straights, I have a 73 camaro drag car thats quicker than the plaid.
That’s sick that you have a purpose-built drag car that is faster than a Plaid, but it doesn’t make the Plaid “not fast”.
The Plaid will be wiped on a multi-lap track day, but again, it doesn’t make the Plaid “not fast”.
That somehow doesn’t refute the original point. If you had the time to type all this, you could have given all the footnotes instead of one-line bait.
> Quick, not fast.
Having to make stops on long road trips doesn’t make the Plaid a car that isn’t “fast”. By this definition, it isn’t any quicker than any the Versa going legal speed limits on a trip lasting 100mi, right? Oh, it might be a tad faster because you reach 65mph, but it’s immaterial on a distance drive.
Your purpose-built drag car doesn’t make the Plaid a car that isn’t “fast”. If your drag car goes faster (neat!), it doesn’t make the Plaid a “not fast” car. It’s just slower than your purpose-built drag car.
Even a multi-lap track day doesn’t make the Plaid a car that isn’t “fast”. It’s not going to last nor will it even be first. But it’s not a “not fast” car by any means.
Which bit of technology would you say Model S is ahead in? It doesn't have 360 camera, it doesn't have a HUD, 2 absolute must have features on a car for me.
> Which bit of technology would you say Model S is ahead in?
mobile app and phone key, user interface, integration with apple music, ability to have car raise suspension when I get to places with bad pavement or curbs, ability to have my car automatically open my garage door & retract my side mirrors as I pull into my driveway, auto shift (forward and reverse without touching gear selector), etc.
I could go on and on.
It's not so much the physical sensors and hardware in the Model S that is superior, sometimes it is not, but it's the way Tesla's software makes clever use of that hardware. In this regard they are MILES ahead.
Also, one last thing, the stereo system is incredible, I've never heard one better in any car at any price point.
The 360 camera is not the same - you only get a virtualized 360 top-down view. But there are front, rear, and side cameras that can get you part of the way there.
But just like CarPlay for a lot of folks, if people are attached to particular features, it’s just not for you.
FSD, for all the media and Reddit’s perception of it, is absolutely ahead of everyone else. Literally no other manufacturer sells a consumer-available car that can drive on surface streets with minimal intervention. My 2019 car has gotten better over time (FSD, blind spot cameras, built-in Apple Music and Podcasts, auto-cancel turn signals for lane changes, etc.). I don’t recommend buying a car on the premise of the future, but I’ve gotten a lot more back over the years.
All accurate points.
And another plus - at least this makes the people who post “my MoDeL S EMBARRASSES AND GAPS supercars” feel a little more special since it’s more expensive now. Somehow that cohort of people think supercar owners can’t _also_ own an EV to daily lol.
Model S (and Tesla, generally) democratized raw speed and great technology in mass market packages. They’re great cars, but I laugh whenever owners think other people can’t buy them too.
Yeah fair enough there, the saving grace of the plaid is that nobody all these years later has matched its performance under $200k, apart from the barred chinese competition, my pain leaned more towards the LR
I previously had an LR, bought sometime after they switched to hw4, and would have loved to upgrade but the updated front faschia is exclusive to the plaid and in that time the base model 3 has gotten so, so much better.
I can still see folks paying the \~$110k for the plaid but for the less performance conscious buyers \~$100k for the LR feels harder to justify. The LR isn't really cheaper than the competition either
100% agree on the styling, I don't get anyone who thinks it looks dated, and I still do think it is the most intuitive car on the market, but the biggest issue for me was that they *removed* steam functionality.
Which for an electric car where you spend some time charging felt like a nice differentiator from the base models and competition, I know they probably have the usage statistics on that but still ...
Don't forget the financial inflation effect. Mcdonalds in australia charges like $6 for a large coke which is comparable to a medium coke in an american mcdonalds.
Just 3 years ago, mcdonalds in australia was offering large coke AND fries together for $5...
Here's my question. Has the Model S and Model X significantly improved sound deadening, quality material, fit and finish, range, charge time, and reliability?
I think removing stalks and changing the front and rear lights doesn't do enough. Now granted if I were spending $80k plus I'd expect Porsche levels of luxury not Toyota Limited trim quality and feel.
I wonder if the Model S and X will take the boutique route and just make them to order? Seems like Tesla is reducing their footprint in Europe and China now that Chinese manufacturers have entered?
> I feel like even the base Macan is pretty luxurious and that starts well under $80k.
They have good build quality but I don't think luxury describes their base models. They skimp hard on standard features that are found on much cheaper car like proximity sensors, heated/ventilated seats, adaptive cruise control and loads of plastic if you don't get extended leather
I just paid $79K for my Porsche Macan 4S Electric. It has the Leather Interior Package in a light grey. Build quality is fantastic. All the AC vents have a textured metal airflow adjuster, feels so nice.
Thats an american exclusive problem.
I can walk into a dealership for an EV Macan this afternoon and have the order confirm in the evening. Last i was offered 9% off on the EV Macan.
And this sub won't want to hear it, but a stripper Porsche isn't much nicer than a Tesla.
To those who are aghast, don't take my word for it, if you can find a Porsche without options, go try one. They suck.
> Seems like Tesla is reducing their footprint in Europe and China now that Chinese manufacturers have entered?
Tesla is shrinking in Europe because no one wants to buy them after Elon Musks white genocide conspiracy reposts, supporting far right political parties, purported fascist salute, and operating an AI chat system that labeled itself Mechahitler.
> Has the Model S and Model X significantly improved sound deadening, quality material, fit and finish, range, charge time, and reliability?
From 2016-2021 I'd say so, practically no other EVs on the market and they were making some pretty solid improvements each year.
21-24, they did the major refresh then largely stagnated as they focused on the Model 3 & Y, fine as they significantly cut prices in that time as well, something like $50k cheaper on the plaid
But these past two years, I wouldn't say so, especially considering the is significantly more competition, and as the tax credit cuts are approaching mercedes etc. have drastically cut prices and lucid etc. are pushing decent incentives on their sedans
> Seems like Tesla is reducing their footprint in Europe and China now that Chinese manufacturers have entered?
I believe the issue for the S & X in particular are that they are produced only in america which makes them more susceptible to trade issues. Mercedes can locally produce the e-class & eqe in china, india, builds the eqe/eqs SUVs in america, etc.
And with europe they are very large cars to begin with
> I believe the issue for the S & X in particular are that they are produced only in america which makes them more susceptible to trade issues.
My biggest concern is that the built quality is way worse in the S&X than it is in MIG & MIC models. Granted, especially X is a more complex vehicle than 3&Y, but still..
If they would start producing Xs in Germany I would order a new Plaid X in a heartbeat. Unfortunately that's not going to happen so I just keep the old one as the car itself is fantastic!
Not really, Elon himself said they begrudgingly make them and he doesn’t view them as integral to the future. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s trying to kill it himself by forcing lower sales
I don't know if the 3/Y platform is flexible enough for it, but I think they would have been better off replacing the S/X years ago for vehicles that are based on the 3/Y but a bit larger and for a price much closer to those vehicles.
The Model S’ biggest issue? It has no vision. In 2012, it did everything decent, was pretty quick, technology advanced, had great range, somewhat luxurious and an okay purchasing and ownership experience.
In 2025 when there are a billion competitors, EV and otherwise, the Model S feels decidedly uninspired, the Jack of some trades, master of one.
I own a new Mercedes S class, and a Model S, and I can tell you which 6 figure car I would buy again.
It’s no longer the biggest baddest fox, and needs to have a distinct image it’s going for if it wants to really take sales from anyone else.
I'd argue the Model S' biggest issue is the CEO and the hundreds of broken promises that have been made about FSD and so-on.
The rest of the stuff you said is fully valid though.
Honestly, I don't think that FSD is all that good. I've "driven" my fair share of Teslas, and honestly the system in the new-gen prius blows it out of the water.
My opinion is biased and based on a small sample set though. I've driven ~6 telsas a combined ~8,000 miles in the past 5 years. I drove the new prius about 400 miles total. The Prius never gave me a moment of concern, every Tesla I drove had at least one sketch moment. One lane-changed into a shoulder, one tried to drive on the wrong side of the road, another tried to blow a stop-sign that was kinda hidden behind a tree, etc.
I own both and I have to disagree. The Model S is still a pretty awesome car and a great daily (probably the perfect daily), but it’s definitely no S class.
13 years of limited body changes has left S and X with a lack of compelling excitement for buyers. I am shocked they even sell the limited numbers they do. Especially, considering the resale value decline. I can buy a 2022 Plaid in the 40s and a 2020 Model S Long Range in the 20s! Buying a new one, that looks exactly the same, just seems crazy.
Exterior-wise, S is still the best looking Tesla. Looks are subjective of course, but compared to the weird and bloated looking 3, y, and x the S is pretty handsome IMO.
The model s has identical wheelbase to the lucid air, 1in less wheelbase than an i5, lucid didn't increase in price at all 24 vs 25, and the i5 went up by $300
The EQS SUV actually got a $15k price cut, and the midsize iX got a $10k price cut, granted these were already running incentives at those numbers before, this is just pricing in the dealer credits
The general rate for the industry outside of EVs is inflation, which as I mentioned earlier was \~3% in the same timeframe
I wouldn’t compare a Lucid but yeah the Equus might be a good sign. Could also be useful to look over the 5 year term to see if Tesla was behind or raising their prices.
Can’t compare to lucid because they’re more competitive and it makes the argument for Tesla weaker. By “not as mature” he means they’re still aggressively competitive and constantly improving.
Looks like you missed the point. You can’t compete with a company selling at massive loss in order to gain market share. Lucid’s pricing isn’t a benchmark as a result. As I’ve said we should use other competing products from more mature companies that aren’t bleeding massive amounts of money.
Looks like I really upset the Lucid fanboys.
Right, instead of comparing the product as it is sold to the price it is sold at customers you want to make weird loopholes around the company financials to somehow discount the product as it is sold at the price it's sold
It's weird
"I could get a better car for less money, but if you look at it, the company isn't really making a lot of profit on that sale. So would I really feel okay getting a better car for a better price if I know it's not that profitable for them?"
Ok that’s great so my number was low which actually works better for my point.
I was going off their Q2 2025 report that said 384,000 vehicles were delivered. 4x that is about 1.2M but go off
The way Tesla fans blend car fandom with being weird Stock fans is so off putting
I've never once heard the most die hard Honda or Chevy fan talk about the profitability of either company
Who gives a shit, we're not investors
> and it’s outselling the Model S for a reason.
And the reason is they are selling them for economically unsustainable price. Last year Lucid delivered approx. 10k vehicles and posted 2.7B net loss, meaning they lost $270k per vehicle sold.
So one could say they are selling $400k cars for $100k..
It's all fun and games as long as Saudis are willing to finance the company, [but it doesn't look good.](https://eletric-vehicles.com/lucid/lucid-13-billion-of-accumulated-losses-missed-targets-and-a-vanishing-market-cap/)
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Well, that depends on what yo ucan even find to compare noawadays. There aren't even a lot of full-size sedans sold AT ALL, for example, and if you want to buy from an American brand, you're not getting anything new.
So the prices go up as the cars get less competitive, meanwhile the ceo of the company is actively trying to piss every single person off now, and yet they can’t seem to fathom why their sales are falling so sharply
I thought the Model S Plaid would be a bargain. But the interior feels cheap, there’s zero steering feel, it doesn’t ride great, and handles floppily. The used prices feel right.
For the price of the new 3, a used S is significantly better at everything except having an LED accent lighting strip and driving dynamics, which is purely due to physics.
The S size, interior, build, ride, and comfort isn’t much of an improvement for me. Maneuverability and visibility is worse. Overall I prefer the new 3 as a daily.
Why? I bought a 2022 M3 LRAWD for $25k OTD with 32k miles, could have been $21k if I had qualified for the used tax incentive. Why would you pay almost 2x that? The range didn't improve, they took out the stalks. Is there something in particular you get out of a new purchase that you wouldn't get used, to justify 2x the price?
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The S and X function solely as halo models at this point. Tesla really doesn't care how many they sell of these two and that has been apparent for years now. Its all about 3 and Y.
Which is funny cause sales are down for reasons so it isn’t like the value proposition is going up. Hey still though just don’t buy a Tesla and get instead one of their competitors which is better cheaper and doesn’t come with implications
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These are cash prices taken directly from their website, incentives don't apply due to the price point, before any gas savings and whatnot
If you lease, you do get the $7.5k credit, but that applies to all cars in this segment
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When I go looking for sources, it says the 2023 Model S Standard Range was $78.5k for the 60kWh model. You might be looking at their post price drop prices, where Tesla briefly cut prices to boost sales and stock price - that was when you could get a Plaid for under $90k.
As of today, the 2025 Tesla Model S starting price is $95k for the equivalent of the 2023 Long Range in performance and battery size 100kWh battery. All they did there was eliminate the standard range/60kWh model.
Remember that a huge part of the car cost - the batteries - is heavily affected by the trade war.
They have access to data which predicts that they will maximize profit, at least for now, by raising the price. That data could be wrong. We’ll find out.
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posting this because this topic is not popular and because the aforementioned subs are anything but in-depth, nuanced discussion
I feel like in general that thread does not apply nowadays, tesla is discussed here about as much as any other vehicle, if not less as reviewed/posted well after usual content, the algorithm doesn't pick them up quite as well as a result. electric vehicles as a whole now have their own large subreddit where primary discussion occurs, I don't really get the slowdown
Feel like its the opposite now if anything, tesla posts are
Out of the top ~50 threads in the past month (more, but I stopped counting there), 1 is about tesla
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