TheaterFire

EVERYBODY STAY CALM!!

Posted by MemeEndevour@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 70 comments

EVERYBODY STAY CALM!!

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70 Comments

Mike__O@reddit

As cool as this would be, I seriously doubt this will ever happen. Maybe they will build one or two to show off, but the entire world moved away from amphibs/flying boats half a century ago. There would be a few niche uses, but large-scale use simply isn't practical.
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codex1962@reddit

There is semi serious talk about putting the C-130 on floats for SAR and special forces missions, and the Japanese US-2 flying boat is in active production and has fans in the Pentagon. (I think there’s a better case for buying it or producing a derivative under license than trying to put the 130 on skis, which many people I trust think is unserious.) Flying boats have a lot of downsides but one big upside, and that upside is a lot bigger when the most serious military threat faces the island-dotted Western Pacific and has the missile capacity to crater every runway on every one of those islands every day for a week.
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Mike__O@reddit

You've gotta remember -- the PBY existed in a world before helicopters and tilt rotors. It's gotta be an extremely narrow window where the PBY can do something a helicopter can't. You're probably better off figuring how to make a V-22 float vs buying a whole new airplane for that extremely specialized role. Modern helicopters are faster than a PBY, and can also land on ships at sea or pretty much any inland airport, or even an open field. I love the PBY, don't get me wrong. Id love to have one as a personal toy to bomb around the keys or something. I just don't see a way for it to be commercially or militarily viable in today's world though.
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codex1962@reddit

That’s basically what I’m saying. Yes, the military role for any seaplane is narrow, but it does exist, and militaries do buy some specialized airplanes in small numbers. (Sometimes too small, see the UK cutting their Wedgetail purchase to *3*.) But the Catalina probably doesn’t fit that role. You’re right, helicopters and tilt rotors have cut into it. So it needs to have some combination of speed, range, and payload advantage over, say, a modified Osprey. US-2: 260 kt 2,300 nm MTOW - EW: 50,000lb V-22: 275kt **830 nm** MTOW - EW: 25,000lb (this would go down with floats or flying boat body work, and the range assumes runway takeoff) Range is where helicopters and tilt rotors generally can’t compete. (Yes it can be extended with tankers, but then the tankers have to land somewhere.) Hard to say what the new Catalina would cruise at but hard to imagine it would be competitive. Range might be, but also hard to figure how at its size, especially without cutting the payload even more. So flying boats: definitely could be a good idea. The Catalina: much harder to imagine.
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Mike__O@reddit

You're right that the PBY could potentially, MAYBE beat a helicopter on range, but even that's a crapshoot. A few things to keep in mind-- A new PBY would almost certainly be a turboprop-- probably spinning a pair of PT6 derivatives because they hang that on EVERYTHING. This would simplify logistics since pretty much everything in the military and most things in the commercial world all run on some flavor of jet fuel. The problem is that would make it GROSSLY over-powered, but that's nothing a bit of engine tuning can't work around. There's pretty much no logical case for putting radial gasoline engines on a new PBY, but hey-- we're talking about reviving a nearly 100 year old design so who knows. The PBY is also dead slow. It was slow by WWII standards and even with new engines I'm not sure how much faster you could realistically push that design from an aerodynamic standpoint. It cruises at 100-110kts. It has a relatively long range of 2000ish miles, but you could probably cover that distance in a helicopter even with a fuel stop along the way. So maybe you use it for loiter for maritime patrol? Why do that when you can do the same thing with a MQ-1 or MQ-9 for a far longer loiter time and cheaper operation cost? If the military (or anyone else) is serious about getting back in the flying boat game, I think they'd be MUCH better off commissioning a clean-sheet design. It probably be the same or less work than reviving the PBY anyway, and you'd end up with a design that would likely be far more practical. [Source for PBY numbers](https://pbycatalina.com/specifications/)
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codex1962@reddit

Bro you’ll have to show me where in this thread I said a new military Catalina was a good idea, otherwise I don’t know why you’re writing all this stuff at me.
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RGN_Preacher@reddit

The military would be very interested as a tool to use in the Pacific Ocean to transport troops and cargo to set up forward positions on various islands.
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RescueForceOrg@reddit

No, they wouldn't. What happens if the seas are too choppy to land? What happens if you have a mechanical failure 1,000 miles from your support ship? Why wouldn't they parachute in? It is far safer than landing on water.
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RGN_Preacher@reddit

And what happens when your resupply or paratroopers drifts into the water over an extremely small DZ? What happens when you need to rescue downed aircraft or naval vessels going down quickly? https://warontherocks.com/2021/11/a-japanese-seaplane-could-be-the-difference-maker-for-the-u-s-military/ Seaplanes have a time and a place in the war, they are specific tools.
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William0218@reddit

Well yes they wouldn’t be parachuting unto islands like the other guy said they would be inserted via helicopter and tilt rotor aircraft which are far more useful for carrying cargo than a seaplane. The only cargo that can be transported by a US-2 are small items that can fit through the rather small side doors it has. The problem with seaplanes is that their use case is fringe for anything but special forces and the only use it’ll have in the regular military is SAR.
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RescueForceOrg@reddit

I wrote the Emergency Open Sea Operations chapter of the FAA's Seaplane Flying Handbook. The reason it is written as an emergency chapter and not an operational chapter is because every single flying boat pilots I spoke to said it is far too dangerous which is one of the reasons the military abandoned flying boats. One pilot who was tasked with evaluating the effectiveness of "Dumbo" missions stated that it ended up being an impossible task because the large number of rescue aircraft that went missing from unknown causes made it impossible to determine if they were saving lives. causing more people to die from the attempted rescue, or if those aircraft were being shot down. Of course, this whole military and war thing is just toxic masculinity on a large scale. If humans learned to help each other rather than harm people because of difference in cultures or resources, we wouldn't have to risk lives to saves lives who were there to take lives.
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LigmaActual@reddit

> What happens if you have a mechanical failure 1,000 miles from your support ship? Well for one you can *land* on the water instead of crashing in the water
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RescueForceOrg@reddit

If the waves are less than 2 feet high, otherwise you have a high risk of crashing.
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old_flying_fart@reddit

That’s not how they were used in WWII - what makes today different?
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Flippy02@reddit

So much... Corrosion.... I think even the military is moving away from letting their aircraft touch water.
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othromas@reddit

Maybe they’re going to market it to the JMSDF.
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Muchbetterthannew@reddit

They have their own, and it's lot better. And 80 years newer.
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othromas@reddit

I had not realized the US-2 is still in production. In that case, unless Catalina can show even newer tech, reliability, etc, they don’t have much of a shot.
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MemeEndevour@reddit (OP)

From what I’ve read it sounds like they’ve been coaxed into the idea by a new military contract. If Catalina can get some decent performance out of the ol’ girl I think we can at least be optimistic
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Wastedmindman@reddit

They have one sitting on the ramp at KEUG. It’s been there at least a couple weeks. Apparently it’s THE PBY that spotted the Japanese Mini sub trying to enter Pearl Harbor on 12/7/1941. u/nellipooza
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nellipalooza@reddit

Here’s a great documentary about recovering and restoring one … https://m.imdb.com/title/tt7699488/
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WingedGeek@reddit

As long as I can configure it like this, I'm sold: https://www.messynessychic.com/2014/04/24/all-aboard-the-flying-yacht-circa-1950/
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majesticjg@reddit

Love the idea, but that monster is going to burn a stupendous amount of fuel. My bet is that the business type who wants to use it 40% of the time as a flying boat and 60% of the time like a King Air will be disappointed in the performance for the fuel burn. Then he'll bitch because he can't find contract pilots with an AMES rating.
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brianbrush@reddit

Its suppose to be a military endeavor to create a wider net of patrol aircraft
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Vincent-the-great@reddit

If someone has the money for this as a private flying yacht they have the money to send a pilot to a commercial AMES add on which takes like 4 days and $3-6k
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RootaBagel@reddit

Maybe [Chalks Ocean Airways](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalk%27s_International_Airlines) can buy some to replace their Grumman Mallards and return to operation (sick joke). I was on [this aircraft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalk%27s_Ocean_Airways_Flight_101) six months prior to the accident that killed all on board and ended Chalks Air.
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sprayed150@reddit

I was on it like 10 days prior iirc. May have been 2 weeks. But was right before it happened. Been flying on chalks since the mid 90s
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GH0ST-L0GIC@reddit

Let's all pitch in and buy one ❤️❤️❤️
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guynamedjames@reddit

I could maybe see a military application but it seems like a stretch. I have no clue what the commercial application is. Landing at Miami after sea levels rise?
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exteriorcrocodileal@reddit

Flying yacht/houseboat for the fabulously wealthy https://www.messynessychic.com/2014/04/24/all-aboard-the-flying-yacht-circa-1950/
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MemeEndevour@reddit (OP)

Yeah from what I read in that article, sounds like Catalina’s main motivation is a military contract with the US
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lonegun@reddit

Fire tankers?
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cecilkorik@reddit

Aerial firefighting would be my guess. This year people are starting to realize it's a rapidly growing market, as terrifying as that prospect is.
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guynamedjames@reddit

Yeah that's a good possibility
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cirroc0@reddit

And while DeHavilland Canada is building a new campus and tiling up the CL515 production line there's an opportunity.
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Wingnut150@reddit

We do that already and don't need to wait for sea-level rise.
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cazzipropri@reddit

Sell it to the Miami crypto bros
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RescueForceOrg@reddit

Interesting fact. The Spruce Goose is made of neither spruce or geese.
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eighthphase@reddit

Can we at least schedule the unveiling to occur at the next Catalina Wine-Mixer?
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Pholly7@reddit

This is for drug smuggling convince me otherwise.
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redditburner_5000@reddit

Market size: three. 1st buyer: Elon Musk on a date from Jeff Bezos. 2nd buyer: Jeff Bezos, because he can't just let Musk have all the cool toys. 3rd buyer: Mark Zuckerberg, because the other cool kids have one and he can't be left out.
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lost_your_fill@reddit

Is this a bad time to admit that after teaching the Disney show Tailspin, I've always wanted to fly a sea plane?
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videopro10@reddit

I'll believe it when I see it. I got tricked by the Turbo Grumman Goose company once before.
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atlantic@reddit

Turbo Grumman? That's a beginners tease... carbon composite with PT6 engines is where its at. https://dornierseawings.com/products/seastar/
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akaemre@reddit

Of fucking course they don't use D-ICKS for the promo photos.
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SoyMurcielago@reddit

D-ICKS out for harambe?
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ytmnic@reddit

Do you mean the Grumman Albatross by Amphibian Aerospace Industries?
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videopro10@reddit

No, I had to look it up but it was called Antilles Seaplanes.
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Smartnership@reddit

I want my Spruce Moose
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vARROWHEAD@reddit

Get in Smithers
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Strider8486@reddit

Sir, that’s just a model…
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SheepherderFront5724@reddit

I said: Get in... <click>
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joseycuervo@reddit

I had a job there making the things before it fell through.
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EnigmaticAardvark@reddit

Yeah, I was pretty excited about the news about the G-111T Albatross revival but it didn't seem to last long.
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Zalrius@reddit

To see the all the top secret information go to www.war thunder……😎😆
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intern_steve@reddit

It's going to be a crowded market with [these guys](https://www.google.com/amp/s/theaviationgeekclub.com/australian-company-to-restart-production-of-the-iconic-albatross-flying-boat-with-the-improved-g-111t-variant/) also not producing late 40's aircraft designs.
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-Badger2-@reddit

Lets all chip in and we can take turns.
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RescueForceOrg@reddit

140 gallons per hour to fly at economy cruise speed? Unpressurized? Can't land in most seas? I don't get it at all. This will never happen. It serves zero purpose.
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MemeEndevour@reddit (OP)

shhhhhhh
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Quiet_Dimensions@reddit

Assuming these actually happens, what's the cost gonna be? $50 mil? Its gonna be stupid expensive.
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MemeEndevour@reddit (OP)

If everybody chips in a dollar…
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CainesLaw2b2t@reddit

There’s a newer company that’s planning on rebuilding Grumman albatross’s. They have the first one in process now. No idea on the market they are trying to capture tho https://www.amphibaircraft.com/
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Crazy-Roro@reddit

Now Fairchild just needs to be resurrected and make C-119s again, I want my damn real life Sea Duck
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iamflyipilot@reddit

A real Sea Duck would be amazing. There is a video somewhere of a science teacher using a RC Sea Duck they made to air launch small gliders his students made for a project.
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ytmnic@reddit

A PBY is bigger than a ShinMaywa US-2?
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Wastedmindman@reddit

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/aviation-company-relaunching-pby-5-as-modern-military-aircraft They talk about the comparison in this article
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ytmnic@reddit

The summary says > Catalina Aircraft plans to revive its famous Consolidated PBY Catalina, creating the *world's largest amphibious aircraft with modern technology*
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imisswholefriedclams@reddit

You never fully realized how large the Catalina was until you walked up to one.
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hallbuzz@reddit

I want this to happen more than I believe it will happen: https://catalinaaircrafttrust.com/about
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FlyingScot1050@reddit

Wasn't this announced last week? I'm also firmly in the 'believe it when I see it' camp, this is going to be a very expensive (both to purchase and insure) aircraft for a very niche buyer.
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