SavageGeese | BMW M4 CSL | May Need a Do Over

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Original_Bar9615@reddit

so here is the problem with your entire review. The car that you drove had AST springs on it was a complete mismatch to the CSL dampers. You took springs that were designed for the M4 competition and you put it on an M4 CSL. Then you took tires that we never tested with this car and you never optimized tire pressures. You also didn’t set the car in the appropriate mode. Did you bother to turn off the DSC? Did you set the car race track mode? Did you do anything other than just put the car in drive and take it out on the track? This is a perfect example of a failure of a car review . You guys should be ashamed of yourselves and you should know better. This review is laughable.

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caterham09@reddit

I think this car has 2 major problems. The first is price. At its price point you're competing with really good sports cars. 911s, Z06s, Amg Gt, and a plethora of exceptional used vehicles. The 2nd issue has to do with the first in that it's inherently less focused than the majority of other sports cars in that price range. The normal m3/m4 is really good at being a very fast, fun, practical car, but not being based on a dedicated platform means it's just more compromised than something that was designed from the ground up to be a sports car. You end up with a car that is too razors edge to be driven as a daily, but not as sharp or refined as the other sports cars it competes with.

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cookingboy@reddit

> At its price point you're competing with really good sports cars. 911s, Z06s, Amg Gt, The AMG GT is a real competitor, and the Z06 will make *any* car look like it has a "price problem", but the only 911 it competes against is a base 911 with plastic interior and underwhelming engine. If you want a Porsche badge you would't even be looking at this BMW, if you don't care about the Porsche badge you wouldn't even be looking at the 911. >plethora of exceptional used vehicles. *Every* new car would look like they have a "price problem" if you compare them to used. /r/cars needs to stop doing this shit lmao.

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rugbyfiend@reddit

Multiple magazine comparisons between these exact two cars, for example Evo. Spoiler, the base 911 still wins.

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cookingboy@reddit

Auto journalism is pretty much untrustworthy when it comes to Porsche reviews. Even a base Macan is like the best thing since sliced bread.

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Sid-Skywalker@reddit

True. Hell, i remember watching reviews and comparisons between the 458 and the gt3, and some of those reviewers said that the gt3 sounded better and the engine felt more exciting. Now i have not driven either of these cars, but I have to say I could barely take them seriously once they said that

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_BEER_@reddit

Thats some bs man holy shit

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cookingboy@reddit

I have, they are straight up lying lol

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coyote500@reddit

I’ve owned a base Carrera (991.2 with PSE, tune, downpipes) It ain’t that special

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RevvCats@reddit

A fun experiment would be to take a regular M4 which lists for around 82.5k (in a fun color) and see just how fast you could make the thing go with the 30k dollars left over. The CSL cut weight but in ways you could do yourself. Or you know just spend less on a Camaro ZL1 1LE and have a faster car without any mods and spend the rest on blackjack and hookers

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zubzey@reddit

in fact, forget about the bmw and camaro

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saikyan@reddit

Good on paper doesn’t always translate to good in reality.

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kill_all_the_genders@reddit

- God's engine - God's transmission - RWD - 500+ HP - Jack doesn't like the car IMPOSSIBLE

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madwolfa@reddit

And still ugly AF. Yes, I'm still salty about the whole G8X generation.

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SecretPantyWorshiper@reddit

Same. I honestly was so hyped up for the G80 M3 after seeing the M340i. I was saving up for it. Got a GT350 instead

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Droopy1592@reddit

Gt350 Best manual car ever

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ukcats12@reddit

> I honestly was so hyped up for the G80 M3 after seeing the M340i. Same here. I've been preparing to buy a brand new M3 since I was a kid. And then when I could do so it looks like this.

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purz@reddit

Yeah all the German sports cars this gen are a bit disappointing in some way. I ended up ordering an RS3 mostly for the 5 cylinder. BMW best performance but fugly. Mercedes killing theirs with heavy hybrids. RS5 a bit dated at this point and Caymans got too expensive + a 4 banger. I’m sure if I ever get to RS6 avant money it’ll get butchered and the 911 will slowly move to super car money as I get closer to it lmao.

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SecretPantyWorshiper@reddit

Honestly the only one I want is the Cayman GT4

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purz@reddit

Same but out of my price range for a car I’d have to garage in winter

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sendme_your_cats@reddit

Yep, I'm glad I got my m340i. I thought about getting an M3, but it's just so hideous. There's no need to spend that much money on one since I got to have fun upgrading the car to make more power, and probably 80% of the handling ability of it

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aprtur@reddit

You also snagged the good interior before they butchered that, too....overall, a good move. I was hoping they would take people's feedback and offer a bumper like the M340i for the M3, but that never ended up happening. It's a shame - that could've made it a really handsome sedan.

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Oil_McTexas@reddit

It's subjective but I like them more over time. and believe they're going to age better than anything than, say, Cadillac is making.

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ukcats12@reddit

My flair will say I'm biased, but I don't see how the G80 will age better than the Blackwings. I would be driving a G80 if they looked normal. But the front end looks so bad and nothing flows at all. In contrast I really think the 5BW design is cohesive and the front end really fits together nicely.

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Oil_McTexas@reddit

It’s all opinion but Cadillac has always been overstyled and cheap looking in my book. Though I don’t dislike the new ct6, I just don’t think it’s got cachet.

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ukcats12@reddit

> It’s all opinion but Cadillac has always been overstyled I'm not trying to argue because it's definitely all subjective opinions, but I'm just curious how the G80, particularly the front end, isn't also overstyled?

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Oil_McTexas@reddit

That part is, I agree. I also think it’s going to age well. Btw I saw a shark blue ish black wing last weekend and thought it looked excellent. I still don’t think Cadillac has longevity legs. Especially the interiors.

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lockpickerkuroko@reddit

Eh, the E36 interior is dog eggs and it's still a perfectly desirable car. Now granted, it's easier to fix the interior of a 90s car made out of recycled NYC street stall hotdog boxes than it is an interior of nearly any modern car (*especially* screens and infotainment), but that's not just Cadillac.

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Oil_McTexas@reddit

Shall we compare to a Cadillac interior from the same era as the E36 lol

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lockpickerkuroko@reddit

Ironically the interior might be the thing that ages the *best* about a 90s Cadillac. Can't degrade plastics that were already landfill-grade when new.

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PanGalacGargleBlastr@reddit

Some people like the old Clown Shoe M Coupe. What can I say, tastes are personal.

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strongmanass@reddit

> I don't see how the G80 will age better than the Blackwings People happily and unironically claim the clownshoe is beautiful. The E60 generation is some people's favorite M5. Nobody remembers that the DeLorean was the Cybertruck of its day. 30 years from now no one will remember the controversy of the G80's styling. Once removed from their era, designs that bucked contemporary trends are generally better remembered than ones that fit in. I'm not saying the G80 M3 will reach that status. But it being controversial doesn't say anything about how it will age or be viewed in the future.

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Happy-Organization99@reddit

Same, I likely would have had a G80 M3 if it wasn't so goddamn ugly just for the more usable space in the back seat. Oh well, loving my 4 BW so far.

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Powerful-Ad3259@reddit

Some people just have weird taste, but we all vote with our wallet, no? ;)

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hoxxxxx@reddit

the license plate was perfect

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Reaps21@reddit

The nose grew on me a lot, it's not my favorite but I like it. It's much better than the m2 or M5

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PanGalacGargleBlastr@reddit

The M4's beaver tooth grille and the M2's chipmunk cheeks grew on me more than I anticipated.

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Reaps21@reddit

I think the real sin of the M2 is the rear, it's so awkward looking, especially compared to the previous gen M2

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T-Baaller@reddit

I saw one with a park bench of a rear wing added, thought it looked nice with that visual balance

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flatsix__@reddit

God’s transmission is a single wet clutch auto? In what world?

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iroll20s@reddit

Its good for an auto, but the dct was a better enthusiast transmission. Still no pdk tho…

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Sid-Skywalker@reddit

It's not even a real wet clutch, it's just a fluid coupling

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flatsix__@reddit

That is absolutely false. It has a locking clutch and only uses fluid coupling at low speeds.

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Sid-Skywalker@reddit

Damnn, do those clutches wear out?

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freakinidiotatwork@reddit

It's doesn't have a wet clutch, it's a torque converter.

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flatsix__@reddit

There is a wet “locking” clutch inside the torque converter.

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Phazushift@reddit

Not raw enough, probably a disconnect between driver and car.

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Bau5_Sau5@reddit

Heavy

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RodRAEG@reddit

He's been corrupted by ALL MOTOR V8!!!

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willis936@reddit

No V8 noises

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equitymans@reddit

3700 lbs? 😂

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SavageGooseJack@reddit

🤣

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SavageGooseJack@reddit

Thanks for posting OP. Here to answer questions per usual. Shame about the car, my assumption is the lowering springs really hurt this car laptime wise

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T-Baaller@reddit

> Shame about the car, my assumption is the lowering springs really hurt this car laptime wise But I suspect a large majority of lowering springs/coil-overs *for cars that are already set up for track performance*, are going to make them worse, and how much worse will be difficult to predict.

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BTTWchungus@reddit

If a factory performance car is street-legal, there will always have been compromise due to having to be on the road in addition to the track.

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DanielG165@reddit

Depends ultimately on the car. Cars like the ZL1 1LE, and 5th gen Z/28 use DSSV dampers that were produced specifically for both respective cars, and are set up undeniably for track use. There is no real adjustment there, and there’s no rubber in the bushings. It’s metal on metal. Very little compromise there. Look at something like a Viper ACR, also; that car doesn’t have many compromises whatsoever.

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SecretPantyWorshiper@reddit

Depends on the car. The Camaro ZL1 1LE uses a Mulatimatics DSSV which is properly set up well for the track while the regular ZL1 just uses similar same magnetic dampers as the SS1LE for better road compliance.

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stoned-autistic-dude@reddit

Installing coilovers without proper tuning will worsen the experience. Getting a proper spring rate, tuning rebound/damping, and properly adjusting height will make it better. But that takes a lot of knowledge a lot of people don’t have. Most people can’t even use the GT3 RS’ suspension which isn’t as good as a high end dedicated coilover from Penske, JRZ, Moton, etc. Remember stock suspension are still compliance parts and must do many things well. Track suspension is insanely compromised to do one thing well.

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Captain_Alaska@reddit

It doesn't even have much to do with proper spring and shock rates, when you lower the car even a little it upsets a whole lot of the suspension design, like the roll movement/roll centers and the relation between the front and rear roll centres as well as bump steer. Correcting for this takes a whole lot of effort very little people go into. You'll notice most OEM lowering (ie fast trims of standard cars) often have very little in the way of actually dropping the car, suspension design is very rigid in the sense it only works correctly at a very specific height, you can get away with a bit but even an inch or so starts to upset things without correction.

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SecretPantyWorshiper@reddit

For some cars its fine, like if its on the SS1LE or on the CTR. But when you get into the track focused ones like the ZL1 1LE , Cayman GT4RS, AMG GT Black series then yeah you can mess things up. One thing is that espically with the M4CSL only 1,000 were made so very very little people are tracking them compared to cars like the BRZ or SS1LE. With that being such a small community you aren't going find out what setups really work and I don't think the aftermarket is going to release alot of parts.

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yobo9193@reddit

Lowering springs are almost always a bad mod to make, even for non-track day specials, since most manufacturers won’t put the OEM shock on a dyno to see what the damping and rebound curves look like to work with it. Your average lowering spring buyer doesn't want to pay for a properly matched coil over setup and, since most racing organizations don’t allow spring changes for their Street classes, there’s very little demand for a well-designed lowering spring. Only lowering spring with actual engineering behind them that I can think of are the RCE springs for the FRS/BRZ

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randeus@reddit

I love the way my car drives after lowering it 1 inch all around. A big problem is that people lower the car and ignore literally everything else that changes with the suspension. The amount of people that just throw lowering springs on stock shocks is worrying. It wasn’t just as simple as lowering my car, I also bought shocks specifically made for those springs, bought front control arms with roll center correction, camber plates, upgraded my bushes, a kit for corrected rear alignment l, etc. Dialing everything in instead of just throwing lowering springs on a car can actually become a bit of a rabbit hole, but can have good results, but most people aren’t willing to do that.

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yobo9193@reddit

Yeah, you did it the right way; I had Eibach springs and Bilstein B8’s on a past car, but I would’ve been better off with B6’s and stock springs

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tugtugtugtug4@reddit

Unless you're running some serious aero, lowering kits on a sports car are always going to hurt high-performance driving capability. Lowering springs require you to remove compliance from the suspension because you don't have much travel in which the suspension can dissipate the forces. Non-compliant suspension can increase performance, to a point, but at some point you just start losing grip and losing control of the car's momentum. The stiffer your suspension the more downforce you need to be running to maintain traction.

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randeus@reddit

> Unless you're running some serious aero, lowering kits on a sports car are always going to hurt high-performance driving capability. No, that's not entirely true at all.

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BrandonNeider@reddit

Only suspension change I've seen ever improve a car is the tractive system for Vipers.

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hi_im_bored13@reddit

I've seen a solid improvement going to ohlins on my s2k but that is after properly setting them up. So many folks that just completely kill the compliance w/ coilovers, don't know what damping is, compensate for that with spring rates, car is bouncing around and doing nothing with the forces, absolute mess. like everyone who gets in my car for a passenger lap says yeah rides high its soft no its not soft you're setting up your car entirely wrong. honda is guilty of this too the +R mode on the FL5 is undrivable, first "mod" I did was swapping in the damper control module from the ITS, not just more livable on the street but better times too. its also why the gt3 (non-rs) makes for a great tourer because the suspension incredibly compliant and comfortable still I do think a lot of 00s and prior cars do benefit from a properly set up pair or coilovers its just nobody sets them up properly.

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OverallCoach1031@reddit

I had H&R VTF on my CSL and it had all the symptoms of being undersprung - was awful on track, I suspect the AST kit is similar. All spring/HAS kits for the G8x were designed for the standard shock valving - some even more conservative to soften the ride. A disaster with the valving and EDC settings of the CSL in my experience.

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Doomscroll@reddit

I owned one these right after it came out and sold it quickly to avoid depreciation. I thought it was a terrible car for both road and track use, you guys were too kind in your review.

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GoudaMustache@reddit

Unrelated to the video but how's the E30 coming along?

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SavageGooseJack@reddit

We have a new engine for it and a long list of parts. Trying to focus on the stuff we need to shoot with the track first. I feel the e30 will be a good winter series

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aprtur@reddit

Did you end up getting a new chassis? I know you said the one in the original video was a rust bucket worse than you anticipated...curious how that worked out.

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SavageGooseJack@reddit

Yeah we bought a whole new e30 this one was a roller essentially. Great/good body no real drivetrain. It’s a pia

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aprtur@reddit

Glad to hear you found a nicer base, as I know you were really disappointed at what was hidden. I'll be looking forward to the updates, man. I've always had a soft spot for them, and feel like you're really going to love it when it's set up how you want.

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gothicserp3nt@reddit

enjoyed the vid. great break down of what parts were a let down and i appreciated britt's characterization of steering feel

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SavageGooseJack@reddit

Ty

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Oil_McTexas@reddit

I’m struggling to remember the last time Mark was impressed by any car

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essequattro@reddit

He’s exhausting to listen to. Obviously there are some positive points for most cars but he always seems annoyed about his job. I don’t need to hear the same tired commentary about the car industry in every video

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ozziegt@reddit

Blackwing

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ScipioAfricanvs@reddit

He likes some funny ones, but I find he is consistent in liking cars that do what they claim to do well. In this case, the ostensible track car does not track well. He liked the EV G Wagen, refreshed Golf R, Outback, CX-70, new Armada off the top of my head from recent videos.

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Oil_McTexas@reddit

Yeah, the g I do remember but it’s just always couched with a bunch of negativity. Which is good journalism to be fair.

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ScipioAfricanvs@reddit

I think the last purely positive review I remember was the Cayman(or boxster?) GTS 4.0.

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XMaximaniaX@reddit

He still doesn't believe in Porsches. He ackowledges they're capable and technically amazing but he just wants every sports car to be 90's JDM and everything else to be a soft luxury boat

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hoxxxxx@reddit

he reminds me of mike from the red letter media channel, just burnt out and doesn't really like anything anymore lol

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SecretPantyWorshiper@reddit

Tbf there are legitimate reasons to not like the car, his points are fair

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hoxxxxx@reddit

the race car driver didn't like it either

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lawszepie@reddit

Murano Crosscabriolet

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Igotdiabetus@reddit

He seems to like all the GM cars he gets in lol

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Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit

The M4 CSL is really cool, but the price tag is just ridiculous. $140k. That is quite literally the price of 2x brand new M cars. I feel like at that price point, there a lot more interesting cars.

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executingsalesdaily@reddit

Right. I could buy a nice used Lexus LC500 and a 50k used M car.

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cookingboy@reddit

>I feel like at that price point, there a lot more interesting cars Like what? A poverty-spec base 911 with plastic interior and manual seats? Other than the C8 lineup, what other "interesting cars" are you referring to? I can think of the Cayman/Boxster/Emira, but those are more driver focused cars and not out right performance machines.

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Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit

CT5V Blackwing, Might not be as fast, but my god does it sound 1000x better, has a far more engaging manual, has way more power, looks a lot better, and has much better steering feel. You can get a ZL1 1LE easily that pretty much puts up the same lap times. As you said C8 Z06, GTS 4.0. Lotus Emira. Just to name a few.

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cookingboy@reddit

The Blackwing is a competitor of the regular M3/4, not this car. Neither is the Emira (which I drove), nor the GTS 4.0 (which I own). You need to understand what a M CSL is.

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BTTWchungus@reddit

CSL is just a track edition, don't act like it's God's gift to the world

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cookingboy@reddit

It’s not god’s gift to the world, I’m not even saying it’s good. But it’s a distinctly *different* tier of product than the regular M3/4, which is what you were comparing against. Why is it that difficult to understand an OEM charges differently for different product tiers?

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BTTWchungus@reddit

No duh it costs more, the argument is the justification on how much more it's worth

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cookingboy@reddit

And like I said, the argument of “there are cheaper alternatives” doesn’t make sense since literally the M3 itself is an cheaper alternative. There are literally no other cars in the *same* segment other than the AMG GT, base 911 and Z06.

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BTTWchungus@reddit

Bro can you read? I didn't say anything about cheaper alternatives. I'm talking about if the price difference between the CSL and base M4 are justified

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SecretPantyWorshiper@reddit

C8 Z06, Cayman GT4, GT500, Camaro ZL1 1LE, AMG GT, and you can get a previous gen 911 GT3. Theres plenty of good track cars you can get for $100k - $150k

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intercede007@reddit

It’s cheaper than an E46 M3 CSL adjusted for inflation. It’s cheaper than an E90 M3 GTS adjusted for inflation. It’s quite literally not the price of two new base M4s.

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Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit

It isnt the price of 2 M4's. But it is the price of 2x new M2's with the same exact S58 engine, and transmission. $68k MSRP for the M2.

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intercede007@reddit

This just in - more expensive platform is more expensive. Buy an M2 CS then.

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BTTWchungus@reddit

No fucking shit, we're making the point that it isn't worth the MSRP they're asking for the M4 CSL

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intercede007@reddit

Weird, because plenty of people thought it was and they’re all gone.

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hi_im_bored13@reddit

Which is why they offer the M2CS if you want a different set of compromises

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SavageGooseJack@reddit

Cars are about 110 now

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digistil@reddit

Piggybacking on this, if you were to order one now to be your only car in the upper Midwest, would you go base with the manual, or Comp XDrive?

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SavageGooseJack@reddit

Manual sedan and in the winter use snows

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GoHuskies1984@reddit

Just spit balling here but I'm guessing BMW isn't building this to be a value based competitive product. This is built to appeal to buyers who very likely have a garage full of interesting cars and this is just one more piece for the collection.

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SecretPantyWorshiper@reddit

Wow it was only 1 second faster than a Base C8 lol. Thats actually pretty crazy. I wonder what went wrong or maybe its the mods. The M4 GT4 Evo is an absolute beast.

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XMaximaniaX@reddit

> Wow it was only 1 second faster than a Base C8 lol. Well Z51 but yeah. Z51 and track alignment make a big difference in handling performance and characteristics

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New-Natural-9288@reddit

It's also only a second faster than standard m2 on ps4s. Something must be off with this model. I feel like an m2 on cup 2 r tires would have a better time than this.

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jbeck24@reddit

Yeah thats pretty bad considering the better conditions (which turbos already have an advantage in),HP, and much much better tires.

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ScipioAfricanvs@reddit

I know it's a topic that is beaten to death but I find it incredibly amusing and sad that an OEM can make a SUPER DUPER COOL SPORTY TRACK FOCUSED trim and offer it in....black, white and grey.

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barbarino@reddit

Looks soulless and boring. Car is losing ~1k of value per month and that will speed up once the factory warranty is up.

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DanielG165@reddit

I honestly really dig the M4 CSL, and have since it first came out. The only knock against it for me as an outsider looking in is the exhaust note, but it’s an otherwise badass car that looks fast as hell.

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LordDarthShader@reddit

Well, the real use case for these cars nowadays is just posting 60 - 130 mph times, or driving like idiots in traffic (Squeeze.Benz). People that really care about driving oe driving at the track, usually won't gravitate towards G8X MX cars. They are just about straightline perf just like the GTRs and all this highway pull racers. I'll take an Evora GT all day over this. Even though is slower than Supra, it is a joy to drive.

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