All legal fines are in proportion to actual wealth.

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ContextSensitiveGeek@reddit

Sorry, this idea is too sane for this subreddit. Please make it more crazy.

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wiccangame@reddit (OP)

I'm trying to figure out how to incorporate killer bees into this. No luck yet.😁

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ContextSensitiveGeek@reddit

Add one killer bee sting per $1 million of fine. Really make the wealth hoarders feel it. If it's a $100 million fine and they die from 100 stings, they die.

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wiccangame@reddit (OP)

There you go. You took my so-so idea and made it crazy! Perfect! Crazy perfect!

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Should 20 year olds get longer sentences for identical crimes than 50 year olds, because they have a longer remaining lifespan? No, the penalty is the penalty for everyone and rightfully applies to fines as well.

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niemertweis@reddit

well yes a % of what you make each month. th % stays the same for everybody. Proportionaly much more fair

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Improvident__lackwit@reddit

Not at all. Flat fines are much better. Why should it be cheaper for a poor person to break a law?

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niemertweis@reddit

do you know what proportional means?

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wiccangame@reddit (OP)

It wouldn't be. The fines would hurt everyone equally, based on their wealth.

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damontoo@reddit

Removed: Politics. Discussion of wealth inequality and laws count here. The exception would be silly/nonsensical laws that don't apply to current culture wars. A few people have expressed frustration that their comments were auto-removed for being political in a political thread, so I'm opting to nuke the whole thread.

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wiccangame@reddit (OP)

The horror...the horror.....

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Reasonable-Agency-30@reddit

I'll show you fair and proportional. Or wait. No, I'm a no shower. Good luck with figuring that out.

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flopsyplum@reddit

Okay, how do you determine someone’s wealth?

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Ateist@reddit

Confiscate everything, auction it off, subtract the fine, give the remainder back.

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wiccangame@reddit (OP)

Brutal!

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flopsyplum@reddit

LOL

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zoidberg_doc@reddit

Your title says wealth but the body text says income. Which is it?

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wiccangame@reddit (OP)

Ouch...my bad. I conflated the two. I think wealth makes more sense. What does everyone else think?

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Reasonable-Agency-30@reddit

Kind of good in theory at least. Trickier to implement.

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ExCentricSqurl@reddit

Just copy Finland, it's not perfect but their traffic fines are proportional to income which is how they once gave out a 250k speeding ticket.

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Impossible-Ship5585@reddit

It is breaking down. Prople are hiding their income nowadays

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Moblin81@reddit

Even easier. Now you can arrest them for tax evasion.

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Impossible-Ship5585@reddit

Unfortunately does not work like that. You can put your income to a company legally and then get wellfare.

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SuperBonerFart@reddit

Tell me more, I just set up my LLC

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Impossible-Ship5585@reddit

You do not need to take any money out. Llc can lay you km compensation, per diem and hotels when you need them for work.

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SuperBonerFart@reddit

What about my apt rent

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Impossible-Ship5585@reddit

Company can rent it for you and furbish some of it. However you need to pay some tax of it.

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SuperBonerFart@reddit

Damn I just started my lease but this is going to set me down a rabbit hole. Could I theoretically sublease my apartment to my company?

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Impossible-Ship5585@reddit

Depends on the contract you have made. This requires planning anf goal to be beneficial.

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Mcby@reddit

Are anywhere close to a majority of the population doing that though? Don't get me wrong that sucks, but I don't think it makes the approach a bad one – even if more people than should are escaping proper fines, it's still much more equitable than the alternative

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Impossible-Ship5585@reddit

There are good benefits. However if the elite is skipping it this wat its a slippery slope

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Mcby@reddit

I don't know if it's a slippery slope, tax evasion is terrible but that doesn't mean everyone practices it just because the rich do, or that we should get rid of progressive taxation. But we do need to tackle it ofc

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PenguinPumpkin1701@reddit

Obligatory not a CPA Well as long as your not a W2 worker in the states you can setup what's known as an "s corp" where you pay yourself a portion of your non W2 income and pay taxes on that while the rest can come as a bonus and, as long as it's below a threshold, be untaxed. I might be wrong on this but that is how it can be done legally.

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AstroCaptain@reddit

Tax evasion is illegal, but tax avoidance is completely legal

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insufficientbeans@reddit

People have been doing that since taxes have existed it's not a new phenomenon or specific to Finland

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Impossible-Ship5585@reddit

I am reffering that nowadays people are hiding their income more than in the past

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PrimaryThis9900@reddit

Most insanely wealthy people have relatively low income. I think Jeff Bezos used to make like $80k a year.

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Impossible-Ship5585@reddit

Standard salary mey be really low but the bonuses and capital gains can be high. Also their conpanies can oay their expenses.

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niemertweis@reddit

it aint we have this in Switzerland works great

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ingmar_@reddit

Very tricky. Also, wealthy people will simply find somebody to take the fall for them (they can always reimburse them.)

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jrv3034@reddit

Absolutely. It's criminal that fines don't work this way.

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James-Dicker@reddit

Fines aren't just for punishment, it's a sort of repayment to society as well. If a billionaire throws a McDonald's bag out of his car window that causes the exact same societal problems than if a homeless person did it.

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jrv3034@reddit

It's not about punishment as much as it is about prevention. If it costs a billionaire a lot of money to get fined for throwing garbage out the car window, they're less likely to do it again.

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wyrditic@reddit

It kind of works that way in many countries. In England, for example, the amount you get fined for a specific offence is supposed to be based on your income. Admittedly, it's income, not wealth, but guidelines for judges advise them to increase fines in the event of people with little income but high savings, and poor people are allowed to pay fines in installments, while the rich need to pay immediately. There are maximum permitted fines depending on the offence, though, so very wealthy people are still not fined proportionally to income.

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ingmar_@reddit

They do in Penal Law in a number of countries, including mine, where fines are handed out in X days of income (or, obviously, incarceration for more serious cases). It's a lot more complicated for smaller infractions, speeding tickets and whatnot, but some countries do just that.

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Human-Shirt-5964@reddit

No

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SandsnakePrime@reddit

Please elucidate. I do not see how you arived at that conclusion

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

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AutoModerator@reddit

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James-Dicker@reddit

Definitely agree with this. In fact I think based on the offense count/# is the only fair way to do it. Sure luck is still involved but you'll never get rid of that completely.

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ClothesAgile3046@reddit

There will always be someone richer. You have to start taking away rights from the person breaking the rules that everyone else follows.

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Maniklas@reddit

Works like this in some parts of the world, among others here in sweden

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LordMoose99@reddit

So if someone owns there home but is otherwise poor and can't afford an additional 1/64th fine just gets thrown out on the street for a speeding fine? That isnt a proportional response. Plus how the he'll do you determine wealth?

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thevokplusminus@reddit

The idea of the fine is to charge someone for the damage they cause society. The wealthy don’t cause more damage to society when they commit the same act, they just have a better ability to pay the fine. There also is no evidence that rich people speed or commit more crimes at higher rates than the poor, if anything it’s likely the opposite. So, there isn’t really a need for a larger deterrent for rich people.

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AlabamaPanda777@reddit

... What? Disclaimer US >The idea of the fine is to charge someone for the damage they cause society. I'm almost 100% sure speeding fines are not numbers made to recoup the cost of fast tires on asphalt. Or disabled parking spot fines going towards early repairs of parking spots designed for less use. And I'd really like to see you argue a penal code violation based not on whether you did it, but whether the fine matches the cost to society of doing it. Particularly for the judge's reaction. Maybe there's some argument for funding the department (although I've never heard of fines being raised with that cited). But even in that case, wealthier people generally live in more expensive areas so it would make sense in that case.

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Elvarien2@reddit

We would already live in this world if billionaires didn't rule it.

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niemertweis@reddit

we have this in Switzerland. a Swedish twat once was speeding on our streets with a very expensive car going whey over. he had to pay over a million

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Reelix@reddit

You earn $1,000 dollars, plus a million dollars worth of shares a month. How much is your fine?

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AvacadoMoney@reddit

Finland basically does this already. One person got fined €121,000 for going 30km/hr over the limit.

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Hendo52@reddit

Not crazy

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

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AutoModerator@reddit

Your post was automatically removed because it contains political content, which is off-topic for /r/CrazyIdeas. Please review the subreddit rules and guidelines. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CrazyIdeas) if you have any questions or concerns.*

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

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AutoModerator@reddit

Your post was automatically removed because it contains political content, which is off-topic for /r/CrazyIdeas. Please review the subreddit rules and guidelines. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CrazyIdeas) if you have any questions or concerns.*

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antenonjohs@reddit

Wealth and income are two different things. Do you want college kids who aren’t working and are in debt to not have to pay fines for anything? I guess their insurance would go up a lot if they racked up speeding tickets, but otherwise they’d have no incentive to not speed.

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bhouse114@reddit

Do people with negative net worth get paid for crimes?

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wiccangame@reddit (OP)

No. They just get disappointed stares from the judge.

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mmaalex@reddit

Im sure that will keep them from committing further crimes...

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Ambitious_Smile_7395@reddit

There could be a floor minimum set maybe? Not agreeing nor disagreeing with OP, but just for the sake of argument.

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ThatUnfunGuy@reddit

When did r/CrazyIdeas become r/HowTheWorldShouldActuallyWork ?

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James-Dicker@reddit

Only if you are 13 years old

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ThatUnfunGuy@reddit

I'm 31 and an above average earner in the country where I live. Why should committing the same crime, be less punishing for me, than someone that earns less? I know a guy that was measured going 200 kmph (120 mph) in a 80 kmph (50 mph) zone. He lost his drivers license immediately, so until he got a new one he just continued driving and the few times he got pulled over, he just paid the ticket. Around $1000 USD ticket, which was peanuts to him. How is that fair? When someone with less money wouldn't be able to eat for a month or two, if they had to pay the same ticket. If you have money a ticket is mostly just the inconvenience of getting stopped, more than an actual economic incentive to change behaviour.

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James-Dicker@reddit

It's not just about punishment. That money collected by fines is your repayment to society for the damage you caused or could have caused with your illegal behavior. If a guy who makes 20k/year does 120 in a 50 causes the same level of societal detriment as someone who makes 500k/yr doing 120 in a 50. Since it's both punishment and societal payment for the "debt I cured" I could understand having some sort of increase but it shouldn't just be linear. It should have a strict floor as well to prohibit poor people from running amock.

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gmhunter728@reddit

Billionaires will just hire drivers

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giarnie@reddit

Hire a driver to speed for you? There’s no fun in that…

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GavinStrachansiPad@reddit

Then the idea has created jobs. Sounds good to me.

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Difficult-Ask683@reddit

What about people who are retired or on fixed income?

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Just_Condition3516@reddit

part of the german system works like that (tagessätze) and swiss fines regarding traffic violation, too.

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MAXIMUS-BLACK@reddit

This isn’t crazy at all

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wts_optimus_prime@reddit

This is already reality for a lot of fines in germany. There are fixed fines but also fines that are calculated in "days worth (Tagessätze)" which is essentially how much you earn per day. So here you can be sentenced to pay "30 days worth" and would have to pay one time your monthly income.

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J-Dabbleyou@reddit

That’s been pitched countless times. The problem is the muppets who approve these laws are rich, so why would they sign off on it lol

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sage-longhorn@reddit

I believe Finland already does this with certain things like traffic violations

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TreadingOnYourDreams@reddit

I don't think that is true. [Traffic violations and traffic penalty fees | Traficom](https://www.traficom.fi/en/transport/road/traffic-violations-and-traffic-penalty-fees)

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Much-Release7646@reddit

I’m not completely certain (even though I live and drive in Finland…) but I believe the fixed amounts are for smaller crimes. So when driving for instance if you go 5-15 kmh over the limit you get a fixed fine, 15-30 over the limit and it’s based on your salary and 30+ then you lose your licence and a salary-based fine. I think

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SPerry8519@reddit

Rich people look at fines as more of a "okay it costs this much to do this"

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ColorfulSheep@reddit

It's like this in some EU countries. I think a dude in finland paid like 100k for speeding.

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iamnogoodatthis@reddit

Yep. Each fine could go via the tax office, for appropriate rescaling based on income, assets and other relevant factors. This does actually happen in a few countries, eg Switzerland for speeding above a certain amount (but not in general, so shitty parking is the norm by the super-rich) But of course a wealthy set of politicians probably aren't going to make or approve that law.

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