Bafang’s new automatic shifting hub motor could change urban e-biking
Posted by IndependentHat74@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 199 comments
Posted by IndependentHat74@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 199 comments
Troubleindc2@reddit
Folks in this sub need to realize most of Bafang's profits are from fleet bikes. Things like Lime bikes for a city but in China. Not individual sales to us or even companies on the like Lectric.
Fleet bikes prioritize reliability, serviceability, and longevity over everything else. A completely enclosed motor and drivetrain rear hub motor makes a ton of sense. No one renting these things cares if its 250w or less.
tommeke@reddit
Of the 62,000 male athletes who use intervals.icu 250 watts for an hour puts you above the 70th percentile of trained cyclists. I understand people want e-motos, but on average you are well over doubling your output unless you are a highly trained athlete.
Kind-Pop-7205@reddit
So? I don't ride an ebike to emulate what the average person could output, just like I don't drive a car because it can travel at walking speed.
stormdelta@reddit
Agreed, this idea that an e-bike should somehow only emulate a normal cyclist has always struck me as a bizarre, it's like people are refusing to see bikes as actual transit and only as recreational toys.
Fit_Buyer6760@reddit
I think it makes sense that ebikes should emulate normal bikes if they are allowed the same freedom as normal bikes. If they don't, then you will have to come up with all new laws and regulations for them which I guess is happening anyway.
stormdelta@reddit
The difference in safety and capability isn't really that much different for a lot of the bikes that you guys keep insisting are "mopeds" (despite the fact that most of these would be completely unable to keep up with actual traffic anyways).
E.g. exceeding 15mph is not difficult for a normal rider, regardless of whether that's the average speed they might ride at on a non-electric bike. Sticking a throttle on a bike doesn't magically make it a moped either. Higher power levels for hub drives, hills, and cargo doesn't magically change the safety picture either.
Fit_Buyer6760@reddit
You're pulling arguments out of the air just like the "guys" you seem to be arguing against. Who is right when it comes to safety? I really couldn't say.
My point was I think ebikes and regular bikes having similar rules given they behave in similar ways is atleast a rational way of thinking. Ebikes recently became popular and we had to give them rules. This was just an easy compromise that made sense at the time.
Its just a thought though. Maybe an incorrect one. Maybe ebikes don't have to be restricted to human levels of power. Time will tell I guess.
OldHamburger7923@reddit
In singapore, they restrict them to 250W low speed, no throttle. If you change anything beyond that, it's closer to a motorcycle and you have a lot more regulations and restrictions. The issue has been with elderly being knocked over by delivery people who speed.
PleyVI@reddit
People keep saying that it becomes a motorcycle, no, those way 4-8 times more, that is not even close. At a specific speed your bike will still carry 4-8 times less energy (I am not counting the rider, because the raider usually carries his energy with him when falling off the bike, not into the pedestrian) Stop trying to put it in existing categories that make no sense, create new category. Make speeding near people illegal, and enforce it, its really that easy. Cannot speed more than 15mph in distance of 6 feet. And before e bikes, there were bikes that were driving like duchebags, and we could fix that too.
Sgrikkardo@reddit
Same thing in Italy, with a top speed of 25km/h (beyond that the motor disengages). It's mostly ignored, but the regulation is there.
abcpdo@reddit
for actual transit 250W is plenty. the office isn't on a mountain.
if you are needing for some reason to pedal faster than 30 mph on a public road its better and safer to just have a scooter with better brakes.
stormdelta@reddit
Safety should be the determining factor, not emulating human cyclists. And safety should consider the full picture - i.e. that cars are the biggest danger, so making other forms of transit more attractive is valuable.
Also, lots of places have steep hills, even in cities. Especially older cities.
Agreed, but 28mph (US class 3 limit) still requires a lot more than 250w, especially on a hub drive.
Brillegeit@reddit
NB: If we're talking European 250W here, that's 250W nominal effect as measured by IEC 60034-1 which basically describes the effect an electrical motor can sustain without a temperature increase over 20C. The regulation does not limit peak effect and e.g. the popular Bosch mid drive motors will peak at ~750W, perfectly within the regulations, and similar to a class 1 US ebike.
Cosmic_Rage@reddit
I live in San Francisco. The office and my house have several hills between them. Getting to my favorite grocery store in the city for certain specialty foods sometimes requires going up very steep hills. I have an e-bike that's 750w/20mph and sometimes use Lyft bike share bikes that I think are limited to 250w and those 250w motors often do struggle with getting up hills that I need to go up as part of some commute I need to make. Sure, in relatively flat places, 250w is more than enough, but once hilly terrain is a regular part of an urban environment, 250w has visible limits.
JulesCT@reddit
Those complaining of the power limits on e-bikes can definitely get an e-bike with more than 250W continuous power.
However, beyond this you're effectively no longer within the performance and weight range of a bicycle, but more akin to a motorbike.
You can ride a motorbike on private land with no licence or insurance, but you take one of those on the public highway your bike is treated as a motorbike with the concomitant insurance and roadworthiness checks that come with being in control of a vehicle that is capable of inflicting so much more damage.
I'd love an e-bike with 500W under the hood, don't get me wrong, but I can totally see the logic in the argument.
stormdelta@reddit
The problem is that you're treating things that really aren't that far beyond the envelop of human-powered bicycles in the same class as things that can go 50-60mph and keep up with cars/trucks.
A normal human rider can easily exceed 15mph for example - yes, they're less likely to than someone with a motor, but that's not particularly relevant in this discussion. And speed is what causes problems, not power - more power enables better acceleration, heavier cargo options, and better hill handling. I'll also remind you that most "250W" bikes aren't actually 250W, they have much higher peak outputs.
More importantly, there's a bigger picture here: the more accessible and viable e-bikes are for transit, the fewer people are driving cars which are far more dangerous. And the more alternatives to cars are viable, the easier it becomes to hold irresponsible drivers accountable - I'd rather an irresponsible person on even a fast e-bike over that same person being behind the wheel of a car.
JulesCT@reddit
Ultimately, it is aberrant and dangerous behaviour that endangers people. Then again, here in the UK we've banned guns, and ... well, the argument is obvious.
Personally, I'm all for an increase in power precisely for the hills and bike loads that demand it, a bike registration system, and a hard limit on speed, circumvention of which is as penalised as speeding is.
It might allay the PoPo's and health service's concerns.
tommeke@reddit
Regular bikes are also actual transit, are they not?
livestrong2109@reddit
Which is why we're all getting so much shit. You basically want a 45mph electric moped not an ebike. That triggers restrictions, and license requirements.
stormdelta@reddit
I never said anything about wanting a 45mph motorcycle. My bike is limited to 28mph.
Apprehensive-Flan608@reddit
IMO part of the problem is a lot of ebikes and ebike conversion kits just use normal bike parts.
Manufacturers have to limit their design on the weakest part of bike, which is often the parts inherited from normal bikes.
I really hope the community, manufacturers and regulators would just cleanly seperate normal bikes and ebikes.
InviteStriking1427@reddit
For me, I'm already a pretty athletic bicyclist, and iv reached a point of diminishing returns on purely acoustic bikes. What I want is a an e-bike that can level up my riding ontop of the power I put down with out spending 10k on something that can only really make me marginally faster. If this motor has torque sensing, only ways a little bit more than a derailleur, cassette and rear hub, then 250 watts sounds like a pretty good advantage, and means you can get good range with smaller batterys, but only if it is used to help, and not replace peddling.
zzbay@reddit
Well, a bike has a lot of liberties, as noted. Beyond that, in many cities you aren’t really going over 50 km an hour (like 20mph) - even with a non-ebike, the moments are rare that I’m able to go top-speed. Your comment made me curious though - how powerful would my motor have to be to go up a relatively steep hill without putting too much additional effort in?
NewKitchenFixtures@reddit
Almost all ebike riders actually want a motorcycle without a license or insurance.
DarkMorph18@reddit
Nope, you’re making an ass out of yourself for assuming coming back from an injury here. Ebikes help people get out and recover and supports are bad arthritis. I peddle and throttle but the biggest problem I noticed is there’s no infrastructure, especially in the United States for bicycles outside of an urban metroplex city. They’re trying to add Greenway or where I live .
Just know your local laws and regulations before you go and buy one of these bikes it’s just it’s common sense if you want an off-road dirtbike electric bike go get one if you want a paddle bike go get one if you want an E bike that has 35 mile an hour speed limit on it. Go get one but just please please be careful and don’t ruin it for everybody else.
tommeke@reddit
So? Don't buy one? It doesn't mean this isn't a great hub for fleet vehicles.
Some people buy e-assist bikes to ride bikes easier, some people electric motorcycles.
abcpdo@reddit
So get a e-scooter?
Kind-Pop-7205@reddit
Doesn't make any sense to me, given what I've said. I have a high power ebike, and a high power car.
abcpdo@reddit
if you want so much power clearly your legs pedaling won't matter much.
WaterWurkz@reddit
Is there some reasoning behind why you think we cannot have both?
abcpdo@reddit
the same reason as why we have a gas pedal and not hand crank to move a car.
WaterWurkz@reddit
My car has both a shifter and steering shifting paddles. No one will tell me I cannot have both!
Adventureadverts@reddit
That isn’t how anything works. I’m not a Pygmy twink on 15 pound bike in aero gear. I put down 400w on my commutes sans motor. And go like 14mph at best.
Comparing real world needs to racers is a terrible scourge in the bike world.
tommeke@reddit
It's actually how a lot of things work. Most people are getting around on non electric assisted bicycles just fine. I never mentioned anything about the needs of racers. The point is you are getting an elite athlete added into your bike, so you can over double your output. The average adult globally weighs less than 140 lbs, and isn't putting out 200 watts consistently, and yet are capable at travelling on bicycle with no electric motor just fine. Then you add the power output of an elite athlete into their hub, without the full weight of said athlete, and you are drastically increasing their speed and acceleration. This may not be for you, I know I wouldn't buy it, but it doesn't mean the product isn't useful.
Adventureadverts@reddit
My point is that pro racers aren’t just pushing more power but also maximizing efficiency through a variety of means that make comparison to average riders unhelpful. Most riders are not supported by mechanics for flats and mechanicals so they need heavier puncture protected tires and more reliable parts including the frame that weigh much more in the end. Take for example that no doubt some body builders could likely put down more watts than a
Most riders need to wear non aerodynamic clothing. Honestly just aero is a huge part of the efficiency factor.
Then you have the need to carry groceries and whatnot and you’re just not in the same realm as racers.
But if you want to talk about racers they have no problems putting down up to 1000 watts on extended climbs.
tommeke@reddit
Yeah, you can ride a heavy commuter with Marathons without a motor, or with a motor, and the motor will help. My point is the motor mentioned in the article would be very helpful.
Adventureadverts@reddit
It will be helpful but it will not be making anyone ride like pros
stormdelta@reddit
None of which is particularly relevant when talking about regulations and limits for e-bikes.
Tons of people use bikes as transportation, not just some recreational toy the way you seem to be acting, and we should be encouraging them to be used for transportation more, not less.
tommeke@reddit
Who mentioned regulations and limits?
How am I implying recreational use? Tons of people do use bicycles for transportation. It's one of the most efficient modes of transport. Then add a motor and you make it easier for folks to get around.
stormdelta@reddit
Because you (and many others in this thread) seem to be acting as though motors should be restricted only to what an average person can do, which doesn't make any sense.
Everything you say is phrased in terms of human capability instead of actual safety.
tommeke@reddit
Not my position at all. Not sure how that came across. My point was the motor this thread is about is a great little motor and 250watts smis a good chunk of power.
andrewthesailor@reddit
400W avg and you go 14mph at best? Check your bike, I do 14mph at 150W avg with panniers and total system weight of 130kg.
Adventureadverts@reddit
I meant 14mph best average speed not top speed
You should get a power meter. You might be surprised.
andrewthesailor@reddit
I have a power meter. Good one according to independent tests. And 3 years of data right now. 200W avg gives me on average 30kph moving speed on mixed terrain course on my gravel bike with 50mm knobby tires. And I'm not a pygmy twink.
Even if you weight 100kg 400W avg for 20 min would give you 4W/kg FTP, that's top 8% of men according to trainerroads. That's not usual commuter power.
Curry_courier@reddit
I used to routine do 400 watts in less than an hour. I never knew I was elite.
Kind-Pop-7205@reddit
You need to learn units. This statement doesn't make any sense. I can do 1500 watts in less than 10 seconds...
askvictor@reddit
400w in less than an hour? What does that mean? Watts is an instant measure of power
Late_Wonder_5273@reddit
You aren't. You are just in the top 1/3. Elite would be to 1 to 5% I'd guess
puterTDI@reddit
Also, how much do they weigh? W/kg tell’s you a lot more since heavier people will have a higher baseline output.
sparhawk817@reddit
This is a motor that already existed too, as far as those standards went. TDCM IGH hub motor
I'm honestly STOKED bafang picked up where TDCM left off, because that kit was really slick and I always wanted one. We'll see if grin or someone picks them up to retail for us or not. 250W is fine for certain bikes, like rentals as you described, or if you were to have a 2wd cargo bike or something with both a front and rear hub, you could stay under the legal 750w limit with a 250 rear and 500 front, just as an example.
Brillegeit@reddit
The way I read it is that it's designed to follow the European 250W nominal effect limitation, but that's more of a limitation on cooling and efficiency and the laws allow much higher peak effect. E.g. the popular mid drive Bosh motors you'll find everywhere in Europe will peak at ~750W while still being certified 250W nominal.
witch_dyke@reddit
I rented one of these ebike we have floating around my city while my bike was out of commission, it had automatic shifting and it was just a terrible riding experience, I hope no one tried these out and decided the didn't like any ebikes
Hopefully this new motor will create a better riding experience on these bikes
NoAnswerYet@reddit
It should be understood that it is probably much more powerful than 250W. It really depends on the motor controller driving it. There are regulations that specify 250W max motor, but almost every ebike manufacturer drives them with higher power.
mmeiser@reddit
People are also missing the point that the motor is running through the gears, this allows it more torque while being lower wattage. This is why a 85Nm Bosch or Shimano mid-drive of 250watts can leave a 1000 watt hub-drive in the dust from thermal shut down when climbing an actual mountain. The mid drive runs THROUGH the chain and rear gear cluster for increase low speed torque.
The negative of a mid drive is chain wear and derailleurs suck. Your average hub drive one revolution of the wheel is one revolution of the motor. Which means hub drives suck at low speed torque. This Bafang system SOLVES that equation by including gear reduction in the motor hub itself!
What thjs efficiency means is you need less battery to get the same results! Basically this sounds pretty ideal to me! Lighter and more efficient overall bike withiut a derailleur and chain! It's an ideal.combination! Sign me up!
i_am_blacklite@reddit
The average hub motor is a geared motor, with a 5:1 reduction or something in that range, not 1:1 motor to wheel. Direct drive hub motors are less common than geared.
stormdelta@reddit
On expensive pre-built bikes, sure.
Direct hubs are still very common outside of that, and still cheaper/simpler than a geared hub is.
sparhawk817@reddit
And unfortunate as it may be, Ebikes are generally not a good candidate for Regen braking and I'm aware of exactly 0 mass produced commercially available Ebikes that include Regen braking as a feature.
I wish they were available, because why would you want to be burning through pads if you could Regen brake Instead, forget the potential range increase, I just want additional braking sources lmao.
How many GMACs has Grin sold? I'd be willing to bet they're below 10,000 units still, maybe even below 1,000. Nothing against grin, but they're a specialist supplier for a niche market within a niche market.
MOST Ebikes are pre built. MOST Ebikes that aren't pre built aren't using parts from Grin, and most of what Grin sells isn't GMACs or even direct drive hubs.
Most Ebikes on the road, on the market, at your local bike shop, are either mid drive or geared hub motor. That's not necessarily a good thing, but it is a thing, and it's pretty simple to wrap your head around, range and top speed are numbers that sell bikes, not regen ability, and range and top speed are affected more by the motor efficiency, and geared motors have a wider "powerband" when it comes to efficiency at various speeds, due to being geared. It's stupid but it really is that simple.
mmeiser@reddit
got any diagrams or sources on how this works?
i_am_blacklite@reddit
Walk into a bike shop and try and buy a direct drive.
Direct drive is common in conversions, but not in off the shelf bikes.
go_simmer-@reddit
Bosch drives can draw more than 250w that is just their nominal power. At the moment there is actually no legal limit on peak power.
placeperson@reddit
I have started to think that the ideal design for fleet bikes might be a torque sensing mid-drive + belt/IGH or just single speed mid-drive.
Bikeshare ebike riders in many US cities are turning people against ebikes and creating a new wave of legal changes. It's a real problem. I feel like the least disruptive thing to try would be to give people ebikes that are a little more difficult to reach & sustain top speeds.
stormdelta@reddit
Could also result in reduced weight. I've been toying around with the idea of converting my old lightweight commuter for awhile, and a lower power lightweight geared hub is right up my alley for what I want on it. Most other options like this I've looked at were hyper-proprietary and used stupid shit like requiring a phone app making them a non-starter.
skitter155@reddit
FWIW, Bafang makes the motors used by Lime ebikes and gliders.
plasticbomb1986@reddit
Vanmoof bikes use Bafang front hub motors. Other then the usual plastic gears wear out very rarely had any issues with them (used to work at vanmoof as a bike "doctor" (bike emechanic)), and own several of them.
Gotta check this out tho, been looking out for and internal geared hub motor for a while for a project ebicycle (kinda like what the Vanmoof V was supposed to be).
NumaNuma92@reddit
My bike is heavy and 250w 90nm, and i can go up the steepest hills easily. 250w is more than enough, torque is more important when going up hills imo.
stormdelta@reddit
Most "250W" drives are capable of peaking much higher than that, which seems to lead a lot of EU people to very incorrect conclusions around power requirements.
Composed_Cicada2428@reddit
The gatekeepers here claiming 250 watts is plenty for commuting must live in Holland or plains states that are pancake flat. I have 1600 feet of elevation gain in my commute with several longer pitches between 15-22% grades and I'm using all 1200 peak watts during those climbs and still grinding it out. I'd be walking it with only 250W.
Cosmic_Rage@reddit
San Francisco resident here. I own a 750W/20mph e-bike and sometimes use the 250w bike share bikes. Anyone who thinks that 250W is enough clearly hasn't tried to ride a 250W bike up some steep residential SF hill while the motor is very clearly struggling to make it up the hill, even with me pedaling to assist.
Moist_Network_8222@reddit
Where are you? I assume somewhere in the US based on feet. I'm in the Denver-Boulder area and that's insane elevation gain and grade for an ebike commute even here.
Composed_Cicada2428@reddit
NH
spuldup@reddit
Auto shifting: Awesome
Belt Drive: Awesome
Sealed assembly: Awesome
250W: Not awesome
daBandersnatch@reddit
Y'all are some serious sluts for wattage in this sub.
250W of supplemental power is PLENTY for an average individual to do average speeds over average distances an average amount of times a week.
250W is also the number to be EU legal — with auto internal shifting and a belt drive I see this motor aimed squarely at bringing down costs on, and the fight to, established Euro-centric commuter brands like Gazelle and R&M.
volantistycoon@reddit
this sub desperately needs to be split so that people who like e-motorcycles and people who like ebikes are separate communities.
stormdelta@reddit
I don't disagree, but the line for motorcycles needs to be set fairly high. There's way too many people in this sub that act like sticking a throttle on a bike at all suddenly makes it a motorcycle.
andrewthesailor@reddit
Because in most countries it does. Or makes it a moped. The bar needs to be low to keep eBicycles bicycles and lawmakers away banning them from bike lanes and trails.
stormdelta@reddit
On trails, I would agree, as those are primarily for recreation rather than traveling, and are much more sensitive to higher power/speed vehicles.
Bike lanes and paths within cities are a different matter though. IMO we should be enforcing by speed/behavior, and possibly bike size/weight. Both of these are much easier to enforce, and address the actual safety issues presented.
Blocking throttles ignores the many accessibility and safety reasons to have one, especially at lower speeds.
Martin_Samuelson@reddit
What are the safety reasons for a throttle?
stormdelta@reddit
Accelerating from a dead stop more quickly at intersections, as time-in-intersection is one of the biggest factors in cyclist safety (it's why many US states have adopted the "idaho stop" rule for bikes)
Accelerating from a stop without having to worry about gear shifting or pedaling means I have more situational awareness for focusing on cars/traffic, and potentially being able to get out of the way faster in an emergency (which has happened multiple times)
Snow/slush or black ice, where I've found I need all of my attention on stablizing the bike and pedaling could unbalance enough to slip
Psychological, but I've found throttle means I'm actually more willing to slow down when appropriate as it feels like I'm not really losing any momentum, especially paired with regen braking
JollyGreenGigantor@reddit
Literally none of these are an issue after a few weeks of learning to ride and shift a bike.
It should become second nature to drop a handful of gears as you come to a stop or if you have an internal hub, to shift into a starting gear when parked. You shouldn't think about shifting, you think about pedaling and shift to maintain your cadence. Do you think about walking too?
3 is objectively false as you're more likely to keep upright if you stay pedaling at a high cadence versus one pedal down and using throttle for speed. Practice in mud or even wet off camber grass.
stormdelta@reddit
I've been cycling my entire life, and used a bike as primary transit for a decade before getting an e-bike, and have had an e-bike for nearly 8 years now.
Shifting still requires attention and more importantly time compared to a throttle, no matter how you slice it. Again, anything that reduces time in intersection improves safety. Are you really telling me you've never ended up stopped in the wrong gear? Especially if you had to stop more suddenly first?
Even if it actually did only affect less experienced riders, e-bikes are transit for everyone including newcomers.
That doesn't make any sense physically, nor does it match my many years of experience riding in the winter here.
Think about it - any movement of the pedals that actually imparts force is shifting your body around, changing the left/right balance of the bike. This is especially obvious at lower speeds or if you get caught in the wrong gear.
JollyGreenGigantor@reddit
It's great that you've been riding bikes for so long but maybe you've never used decent kit that can shift quickly under load if you're in the wrong gear? Or never developed the habit to dump 3-5 gears as you come to a stop?
Similarly maybe you never developed proper low speed balance and control? Practice riding off camber slippery surfaces, maybe run a season of cyclocross, you'll see that keeping a soft pedal and rapid cadence maintains control and balance. Left/right balance counters out to keep you centered over the wheels, not leaning slightly to one side. This is paramount on ice and snow.
I'm taller, heavier, stronger, and apparently more balanced than you are, and I've probably been riding bikes longer than you. I've definitely taught more adults how to ride bikes than you.
stormdelta@reddit
I don't know why you and the other guy are so hellbent on denying basic safety features on the grounds that they're less necessary if you're a perfect professional rider who never makes mistakes.
andrewthesailor@reddit
Or maybe you are just bad with handling your bike. Sorry, but it seems like typical teen in EU is more stable on their bike than you.
"Even if it actually did only affect less experienced riders, e-bikes are transit for everyone including newcomers." yeah, so why should we give newcommers throttles and class 2/3 ebikes/mopeds? So they crash at intersections because they have problems with handling their bikes?
I'm not a light rider, I often ride long distances with sacks, and had no problems with balance. Came back to regular bike riding 3 years ago.
"shifting still takes time, especially non-IGH shifters"- are you racing cars or why do you need instant full power?
stormdelta@reddit
Predicating safety on an assumption that no rider will ever make a mistake is a very bizarre way of looking at things.
I've told you repeatedly that time-in-intersection is a major factor for cyclist safety, as backed by evidence. If you don't believe me go look it up.
Like I said, my experience (and basic physics) says otherwise. Not arguing it further.
andrewthesailor@reddit
"Predicating safety on an assumption..." Not what I've written. In my experience moped/powerbike riders are usually bad with handling, either they bikes do not ster as good as normal bikes/ebikes, or they are just usually bad because they assume that throttle will compensate for not learning how to control their bike.
"I've told you repeatedly that time-in-intersection is a major factor for cyclist safety, as backed by evidence."
We are talking what, 2-3 seconds at start tops? I ride in SPD pedals, I usually start at "wrong" gear to clip in easily. Please provide proper reasearch proving that you need throttle to be safer, otherwise it's just your opinion. Also- car drivers also need to shift gears in most cases, if time to start was so important all cars would come with launch control as safety feature.
"Like I said, my experience (and basic physics) says otherwise".
It's just your opinion, writing "basic physics" is just a gross oversimplification of bike handling-if you cannot control your bike while moving on it just stick to cars.
stormdelta@reddit
Or maybe we've just had very difference experiences from you. As I said, I've been cycling for decades - humans make mistakes or get distracted, even people who know what they're doing.
More than that considering the size of many intersections, particularly if the person ends up needing to shift gears.
Again, there is data backing up what I'm saying. I'm done arguing with you when you react to every disagreement by whining that everyone who disagrees just isn't skilled enough, that they need to be magically perfect professional cyclists who never ever make a mistake.
A cyclist being hit by a car is much, much worse for the cyclist than two cars hitting each other. I shouldn't even have to explain that.
loquacious@reddit
I am a life long cyclist and I thought I would hate throttles and never use them, ever.
They are incredibly useful as a safety feature as stormdelta outlines especially for low speed riding on sketchy terrain, uphill starts and more.
It is also an assisted mobility tool for people with health issues because you can use it to keep moving without pedaling, or even having working legs at all, or dealing with stuff like chronic fatigue or MS where you need to.manage your effort with micro breaks.
I also use my throttle for low speed control on techy single tracks where I would normally pedal strike or have difficulty clearing an obstruction.
I also use my throttle for hike-a-bike where I have a heavy load of groceries or something and I need to push my bike up something (even stairs) and I can just blip the throttle in a low gear and power use it as extra strength walk mode.
Even as a very experienced cyclist, starts in traffic are way smoother and safer. There's this thing I do now where I start off with one foot on the ground and I just blip my throttle as I stand up on the other foot on my pedal and my bike just scoots forward right under my butt to sit down and start pedaling all in one perfectly straight line, and there's no starting wobble at all and I clear the intersection much sooner and faster.
It is such a useful safety feature for year-round utility and transportation riding that I nearly think that they should be mandatory... if we lived in a more idealistic world, at least.
andrewthesailor@reddit
Walk assist is legal, and it's different than "you press button and go full power" throttle.
"Assisted mobility tool for people with health issues"- for disabled there are different legistations. We are talking about ebikes, they support you anyway, if your bike doesn't allow microbreaks it's probably broken, I can stop pedalling my gravel bike and it will still roll a bit by inertia. And it has no engine.
"techy single tracks "- those rules are for riding on public roads. Bike lanes are not "techy single tracks"
stormdelta@reddit
Both that poster and I have given you use cases for having actual power behind it, not just walk-assist.
I'm not aware of many places that allow different features on ebikes based on someone's disability.
You seem to have this huge problem with anyone riding any kind of bike, electric or not, if they aren't some pro athlete type or don't conform to your bizarrely narrow idea of what "counts" as cycling.
It reeks of you seeing bikes as some special recreational club for you to belong to, instead of what they actually are to millions of people: transportation.
i_am_blacklite@reddit
I’d like to know this as well. I’ve never needed one to feel safe.
andrewthesailor@reddit
Speed and power is usually regulated by law and are main distinguishments. Throttless are usually limited to walk assist mode by law, while most popular add on ones allow you to ride at full power. If your "bike" does 25kph with no pedalling you are not on a bike.
stormdelta@reddit
I was clearly talking about the US, which has a very different set of infrastructure issues especially for cycling. The EU has lower average distances, drastically better cycling infrastructure, lower typical speeds, and far more transit alternatives. I'm also not a fan of how the EU rules basically make anything except mid-drives unviable, driving up baseline cost to have a legal bike.
What purpose do you think this pointless gatekeeping is actually serving? It's not difficult for most riders to maintain 15mph even unassisted, and most of these still look and handle like bicycles, so don't try to pretend this is about any legitimate safety concern.
andrewthesailor@reddit
basically make anything except mid-drives unviable- most bikes I see on daily road to work are hub drive bikes doing 25kph tops with usually 250W engines. They seem viable to people around me.
drastically better cycling infrastructure- yeah, typical polish cycling infrastructure is so much better xd.
It's not difficult for most riders to maintain 15mph even unassisted- typical bike traffic speed in poland is around 18 khp. Got 2 ebikes in my family, users mostly use them on low setting and usually ride around 20kph. You don't need to race in city.
What purpose do you think this pointless gatekeeping is serving? - gatekeeping created mostly by USA bicycle organisation as far as I know. And it's serving other sidewalk and bike lanes users.
legitimate safety concern- most of accidents involving bikes right now are caused by illegal ebikes and escooters.
stormdelta@reddit
250W direct hubs can't go up many hills or handle heavier riders/cargo. A more expensive geared hub might, though even those are going to be pretty limited on hills/cargo at that wattage without overheating/overstressing the gearing.
Compared to most US cities, yes
The argument is about safety not what speed someone you know likes riding at in a completely different environment.
Even slower roads in US cities are 25-30mph, and what few places have cycling paths are typically 15mph limit, which is hardly "racing". Distances are often much higher in the US too due to how spread out everything is, and we often have to mingle with car traffic so the road speed limits matter.
What are you talking about and how does that have anything to do with safety?
The vast majority of accidents involving bikes and pedestrians are caused by cars.
andrewthesailor@reddit
"250W direct hubs can't go up many hills or handle heavier riders/cargo."
Experience says otherwise.
"Compared to most US cities, yes"
Lol.
Even slower roads in US cities are 25-30mph, and what few places have cycling paths are typically 15mph limit, which is hardly "racing". Distances are often much higher in the US too due to how spread out everything is, and we often have to mingle with car traffic so the road speed limits matter.
So are roads in Poland.
we often have to mingle with car traffic- as in Poland. And you don't want to ride at road speed limit, most drivers will ride closer to faster riders, proven scientifically(they ride closer if they consider you fast/good rider etc).
The vast majority of accidents involving bikes and pedestrians are caused by cars.
And most incidents not involving cars are caused by illegal escooters and "ebikes". It's not pointless, big differences between casual non-ebiker and boosted ebiker are quite dangerous. With current eu limits the difference is much smaller, so people are safer. There are no scientific evidences proving that faster speed limits will increase biking popularity or improve safety as you claim.
stormdelta@reddit
You did read the part where I said direct drive hub, right? Or did you ignore any part of the sentence you didn't like just like all the other posts you've responded to?
Go play with Grin's motor simulator if you don't believe me. They have actual data.
Cars are still orders of magnitude more dangerous, to the point the comparison is almost laughable.
Also, the most reckless e-scooter behavior I see here is from people riding legal rental scooters.
Making cycling a viable alternative to driving for more people in the US is a pretty obvious way to get people to drive less, as the increasing popularity of ebikes here for transit demonstrates.
Also, you keep using words like "scientifically" or "objectively" wrong - these words don't just mean whatever you feel like happens to be true, or whatever you've anecdotally experienced.
andrewthesailor@reddit
Also most EU countries are slowing down traffic in cities in order to increase safety.
Also- you can get an "ebike" in UE which can do up to 30mph. It will be classified as emoped/pedelec etc, you won't be able to ride it at bike paths and pavements because they are too dangerous for pedestrians.
kurisu7885@reddit
Speed and behavior is how it's enforced where I live. Basically just don't go above 12 MPH and mind other people on the path.
NewKitchenFixtures@reddit
Ebike is only a thing because people can’t be bothered to get licenses. You’ll will basically never see an ebike rider pedaling.
It’s all a glorified motorcycle alternative for people who can’t get licenses.
That’s why nobody needs to split the sub.
DisastrousAnswer9920@reddit
I don't think it's as apart as you make it sound, the problem is that most off the shelf ebikes are very heavy and rear hub, so they need big watt motors, at least 750W for normal riding.
If you DIY your bike then you can have sub-500W motor because it's much lighter. I have a Rad+ and with my kid and loaded up, it does fine just cruising, but that's the limit.
Martin_Samuelson@reddit
I try to do my part and downvote anything resembling e-motorcycles.
BoringBob84@reddit
I think that e-motorcycles are awesome forms of micro-mobility, but they are not safe on non-motorized paths.
roughtimes@reddit
/r/non-motorizedpaths
tracebusta@reddit
I joined this sub a few years ago and was fine with combined e-bike/e-motorcycle stuff, but the sub has grown so much (not to mention the the market options of e-bikes and e-motorcycles) that it doesn't make sense to keep everything under one place anymore.
heskey30@reddit
Oh yeah those 500w lectrics are really tearing up the roads.
loquacious@reddit
Lol. I am huge, my bike is also large, I live somewhere insanely hilly and rugged, I haul heavy loads of cargo and my total bike curb weight can exceed 400-450 pounds.
I use every watt of my 1200ish watt 52V BBSHD and, yes, I am running it through a massive 11-50t extended range cassette for even more climbing torque.
250 watts of hub drive is just a rounding error over here and some voltage sag.
onlyonebread@reddit
Okay well that contraption that you're riding doesn't even sound like a bike so I'm not sure how that's relevant
loquacious@reddit
It's a plain old steel Surly Trucker touring bike with 700x40c skinny tires and no suspension.
It's practically the platonic solid of "bicycle" except for the mid drive and modern 1x MTB drive train.
It does not in any way even remotely look like a motorcycle, moped or scooter and is more "traditional bicycle" than like 90% of the ready to ride or DTC fat tire ebikes in this sub.
It is relevant because not every 1000+ watt ebike with a throttle is trying to go fast or be a menace.
Some of us are just trying to carry useful amounts of cargo while being large, old and fat without our bones hurting more than necessary - and not owning a car because fuck cars.
stormdelta@reddit
Agreed.
I have a Surly Ogre with a Grin All-Axle motor and 2.8" tires, which are large but still far from fat tire, mostly for snow in winter. It looks and handles like an old school steel MTB with no suspension, just with lots of cargo/bags. It can do 28mph, but you wouldn't want to on anything that isn't an open clear road anyways, most of the power is for acceleration from a stop and cargo/hills.
And I also don't own a car - my bike is literally my primary transportation.
loquacious@reddit
I realize bikes and riders like us are edge cases.
Like you I was a cyclist first and put in my dues with decades of unpowered riding, so I know and respect cycling ettiquette and safety.
My bike can do 28+ even with a load of groceries but I don't.
In practice the only times that I am going more than 20ish is when descending a couple of certain hills in my area where it is safe to take the lane and send it, and I don't use power for that, I just let go of the brakes.
And I would be doing that anyway on a regular bike.
If anything I am a safer and much more mellow cyclist now with an ebike because I care about momentum and effort a lot less.
I slow down way more to walking speeds passing pedestrians now because it doesn't really cost me any effort or sweat, but when I was younger and dumber on analog bikes I hated slowing down and got salty about it.
With my ebike setup it makes it really easy to just chill and be polite and literally drop my speed down to 1-2 mph and keep it really safe and mellow for everyone.
And with my gears and drive I am back to cruising speed in seconds.
Flat_Review2501@reddit
Normally I'd agree but my Velotric is 500W and it STRUGGLES on the big hill to my house =\. And when my 250lb friend sits on it... I can hear it crying sometimes
Buzz_Killington_III@reddit
I've had a 500W mid drive for a few years, struggles up the hills near my place, and will overheat if I'm not pulling my weight.
Bought a 250W mid drive a few months ago, pulls me straight up and has yet to overheat or cause a shutdown.
250W mid > 500W hub.
Paranormal_Lemon@reddit
Not enough low rpm torque
4look4rd@reddit
Thats because it’s a hub drive on an inefficient bike. A Tour de France cyclist will cruise at 250w power output and peak at 500w.
250w is plenty for most cyclists if its coming from a mid-drive which is also utilizing the bike’s gears.
BlueSwordM@reddit
lul no.
First of all, a 60kg TDF cyclist would have an FTP of around 300-400W+ and peaks of 1200-2000W.
Second, their bikes are ultra high end, with super aero designs that force low positions, waxed chains (nothing special really, but rare otherwise) and really efficient tires; good luck getting any of this from a commute rider.
Finally, peak power, even on EU mid-drives, is NEVER 250W. You'll often see controllers configured to 15-20A battery current peaks on 36-48V battery packs.
Yes, you will see far higher peak output on those hills.
In the end, you are right, but the difference lies in the details.
4look4rd@reddit
250w coming from the mid drive plus the 100 or so watts a casual cyclists can output is absolutely in line with what a TDF cyclist is outputting on average (250-350w sustained).
400-500w is only manageable for short bursts, this is timed trials levels of output and even then you’re not getting more than an hour at those levels. On TDF that’s more likely a 20-30 minute burst. Similarly a 250w mid drive will go way above that rating for shorter periods, but it will only do 250w sustained.
1000w or more is only on climbs for extremely short bursts.
So yeah a 250w mid drive is plenty for most applications.
People are used to inefficient hub motors on heavy fat tire mopeds, which is why keep asking for more power. This ultimately leads Sauron types of motorcycles with non-functional pedals riding in bike lanes.
stormdelta@reddit
Most "250w" mid-drive bikes are actually quite a bit higher than that when it comes to peak output, the 250w figure is usually sustained output.
And that's only sufficient on a mid-drive for middling speeds and loads. A hub drive is much lower maintenance, it just needs more wattage.
CharlieParkour@reddit
The worst hill near me is a breeze with a 250w hub. Admittedly, I started out with a regular mountain bike and it kicked my ass for several months until I built up enough muscle mass and endurance to kick its ass. Of course, it's still a beast if the temps get above 90⁰ and the air quality blows.
mmeiser@reddit
People are also missing the point that the motor is run ing through the gears, this allows it more torque whil being lower wattage. This is why a 85Nm Bosch or Shimano mid rive of 250watts can leave a 1000watt hub drive in the dust from thermal shut down when climbing an actual mountain. Yiur average hub drive one revolution of the wheel is one revolution of the motor. Which means hub drives suck at mow speed torque. This Bafang system SOLVES that equation by including gear reduction in the wheel!
What efficiency means is you need less battery to get the same results! Basically this sounds pretty ideal to me! Lighter and more efficient overlal bike withiut a derailleur and chain!
Nychthemeronn@reddit
Bikes with 500+W motors are usually strapped to heavier e-bikes which are much MUCH more common in the USDM. My analog bike is 7.5kg, my e-bike is 35kg. Without at least 500w, my e-bike would feel unusable.
250w on a much lighter bike sounds great and I would definitely be willing to try it!
BoringBob84@reddit
I don't know where the USDM is, but a bike that is "unusable" with 500 Watts is probably too big and heavy to be safe on non-motorized infrastructure.
Narragah@reddit
United States Domestic Market I'd assume
BoringBob84@reddit
Thanks!
joecan@reddit
250w motor would be useless with the hills around where I live. Some of the people in this sub are sluts for arbitrary rules.
BoringBob84@reddit
The rules are for the safety of pedestrians and bicyclists. They are not arbitrary.
stormdelta@reddit
The majority aren't, but there are exceptions and plenty of grey areas subject to debate.
In the US at least, a lot of the rules are also written by people who aren't cyclists, and we get a lot of non-US people in this sub who don't understand why US infrastructure and commuting actually look like.
BoringBob84@reddit
That is not true. The three-class model legislation (including speed and power limits) that most USA states have adopted were written by "People for Bikes" - a bicycle advocacy organization.
I also don't have much patience for whataboutism. We can care about both. And cars are not allowed on non-motorized infrastructure, so they are not a relevant comparison to ebikes.
stormdelta@reddit
The class system is a great example of one of the ones that are well thought out, even if I personally feel it's still overly restrictive.
A lot of local rules/regulations and enforcement are not however.
To me it's not whataboutism because the issues are linked. The more alternative transit options there are to cars, the easier it is to hold drivers accountable. Courts are insanely reluctant to remove driving privileges in the US because of car-centric infrastructure.
When people hold alternative transit to standards they refuse to apply to cars, it results in cars continuing to be seen as the default that we make excuses for instead of allowing alternatives to shine. I'd rather an irresponsible person on an e-bike, even if it illegal and reckless, than behind the wheel of a car.
BoringBob84@reddit
This is a very good point.
Of course, reckless motorists are dangerous and they should be held accountable. But it is a different problem because the general public would never tolerate banning cars for the good reason that you just mentioned. The opposite is true with ebikes. The general public is more than willing (and is doing it) to ban all ebikes in many areas becasue of the reckless riders on electric motorcycles. This is disturbing to me not only for selfish reasons but because I think that all micro-mobility is a huge improvement over car dependency and I wish that we could make laws to enable it to be done safely and legally.
paramalign@reddit
It’s probably 250W in the usual regulatory sense of “maximum sustainable power for 30 minutes”. Basically every 250W motor is more like 750W, same with rental scooters.
nikdahl@reddit
Sure, if you don’t have any hills.
Kletronus@reddit
It is fine, that is for the masses to commute. If your commute is exciting you are doing it wrong. If you need more than 250W assist, something is, well i would not say not right but... it is not normal.
The market that needs innovation the most is the low end. Did you know that average commuter cyclist speeds in the world are around 10mph?
stormdelta@reddit
I'd argue it's the low end that a lot of the rules in the EU most get in the way of, because simpler and cheaper direct hubs need more wattage to work effectively.
Most of those 250W mid-drives you see in the EU aren't actually 250W either, they can put out far more than that peak - way too many EU people in this sub don't seem to realize that.
The US rules are usually enforced as max power regardless of peak/sustained. Plus we typically need higher speeds/distances covered compared to the EU, and have much worse cycling infrastructure that means we sometimes need to share space with cars to get somewhere.
Kletronus@reddit
I'd argue it's the low end that a lot of the rules in the EU most get in the way of, because simpler and cheaper direct hubs need more wattage to work effectively.
No, you don't. I have one of those in EU, and yes, they are all rated at 350W and labeled as 250W in EU, doesn't matter as the controller controls the current. Do i need to put in some muscle to go on top of the steepest incline in the town? Yes, in one of them, for about 15m. Do i need to use more muscle to keep the top speed all the way to top of hills? Yes, i do.
250W is enough for ebikes that don't require any registration, license or helmet. 10mph is the average commuter cyclist speed and pedestrians walk much slower than that. We share the paths with those two. So, you don't need more top speed and 250W is enough up to 15mph without any assistance from the user. It gets there faster if you put in some muscle and need to help it climb hills. Wow, how impractical and useless are they...
Your cars need to go slower in places where you have to share the road or get this: YOU CAN'T USE A BIKE. I am very sorry, really without any glee but safety does not care about your situation. Laws of physics remain the same. 250W is the entrylevel now and you can expect US laws to change to reflect EU laws as they just work better. 15mph and 250W pedal assist is the first category, and each category higher has more and more regulations. That is safe enough for the masses.
stormdelta@reddit
You haven't addressed what I said about hub motors at all.
Direct hubs are cheap, simple, and low-maintenance, making them very accessible. But they need more wattage to produce equivalent torque for hills.
The rest of your post is just ranting about how apparently nobody else should be allowed to use an e-bike if their fitness level and use case is even slightly different than yours.
You are wildly out of touch with what cycling, infrastructure, and politics are in the US. The three class system has been extremely successful here for a reason, even if I don't entirely agree with it.
Kletronus@reddit
I HAVE A HUB MOTOR. You can easily do with 250W, in Finnish winters.
250W is the entrylevel and if you think it isn't: you are a murican. You are just beginning to have some cycling culture, you just do not know how this works. You don't have the infra and raising speeds will keep your safety abysmal. Your vehicle accident rates are already double than Europe but on cycling front you are magnitude of order off. Because: YOU GO TOO FAST, you haven't fell down often enough to understand how cycles work, what is a safe speed for them. 15mph is already a compromise on safety!
Laws of physics in USA are not different than elsewhere in the universe and THAT is your main opponent. Not me. I know how things are in USA. You are not telling me anything i haven't heard dozens of times more and you are the only humans on the planet that says going slower is more dangerous than going faster.
Start campainging for things to change, and your main weapon should be PEDESTRIANS, not cycles. You don't even have infra for walking! So don't try to cycle before you can walk. Walking is a hjuman right, every travel from A to B should be able to do by foot first, then you think about other modes of transport. Pedestrians are #1. That is where you got to start to get population on your side. You do not have a right to choose your mode of transport and that is what you should be shouting from the rooftops.
FML707@reddit
Unfortunately 250W is the law in Australia, most of Europe, and some other places aswell. :(
AKL_wino@reddit
NZ is still the wild west. No motor nor speed limits.
Narragah@reddit
500w in NSW though.
lillian_e1985@reddit
Specialized Como with the enviolo automatiq system is the same thing. Lets see how they compare.
rotary65@reddit
I've been using heavy BBS2 750W, 17ah 48v ebikes for years. I've recently been enjoying riding a 20-inch non-electric folding bike for its lightness and convenience. I now want to switch my ebike to a light 250W 20-inch folding ebike for the same reasons. The new 20-inch 250w light folding ebikes coming out using this new automatic 3 speed hub motor look very appealing. I like pedaling and am a cyclist.
CeeTheWorld2023@reddit
I’ve heard, via my bike company. Any higher wattage strips the internal gears. 250w is the max=consumer pricing.
6GoesInto8@reddit
Do you want more power in, or more power out? With built in gearing it may still be more powerful than higher wattage hub motors in the cases you actually need the power. Motors have a speed they work best at, so any hub drive can only work best at high torque, cruising, or max speed. This should be able to do all 3 a bit better, meaning you are spending 250W when doing things that another drive would spend more. Easier to compare to a non geared 250W drive, so it would have higher starting torque, more speeds at peak efficiency, and achieve a higher max speed than a fixed gear motor of the same power. And all of that without needing to upgrade the battery.
halfercode@reddit
Here in the UK, 250W is all I've ever needed. I wouldn't mind a bit more power flexibility in the EAPC rules here, but ultimately what power and acceleration is delivered is all in the gearing design. My KTM, Scott, Orbea, and Specialized bikes have all been super.
baslisks@reddit
stack it with their mid drive for more fun?
adorablefuzzykitten@reddit
I have an SRAM version of this with two gears on a 2014 bike.
kcattattam@reddit
"Forget fiddling with derailleurs and gear levers mid-commute" by buying this tiny hub motor and building a new rear wheel. Or, just do like I did 2+ years and 6400+ miles ago: buy their ultra-reliable BBSHD, and run it singlespeed with an existing rear wheel and a chromoly steel cog
stormdelta@reddit
Mid-drive still requires shifting gears.
I got a direct hub for many reasons, but the simplicity of not worrying about gearing so I could my full attention on situational awareness when commuting in traffic was one of them.
lobelybones3@reddit
I bought the bafang automatic shifting internal gear hub to use with my bbshd. Best of both worlds.
kcattattam@reddit
Then you have no clue about the BBSHD's massive torque
Atty_for_hire@reddit
Yeah, I didn’t buy a bike for this reason. But my belt driven hub motto bike has no gears. Which is more than enough for my commute. I didn’t realize how worry free and fun never needing to shift is. When I switch back to my analog bikes and shift I’m amazed at how much work it feels to just driving. It’s like going from an automatic car to a manual.
SadisticPawz@reddit
I dont like auto shifting.
odc100@reddit
THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER.
SadisticPawz@reddit
YES
atlasraven@reddit
Bafang needs to join up with Yasa for a 3 speed waterproof motor with crazy power.
https://electrek.co/2025/07/17/yasas-axial-flux-motor-achieved-an-unofficial-world-record-doubling-industry-benchmarks/
CakeTester@reddit
550kW! You'd get up the hill OK, but you'd probably be buying a lot of new tyres. And quite possibly a casket. Still want one though!
idiotsecant@reddit
a flaming casket, on account of all the heat youd have to reject from a motor that powerful.
satiric_rug@reddit
Agreed; this is like asking the designers of the LS engine to make a lawnmower engine. The order of magnitude is just way off.
dankp3ngu1n69@reddit
Too weak
celeste_ferret@reddit
A typical person can do around 100 watts with leg power. This motor that does 2.5x that should be plenty for a bicycle.
dougmc@reddit
A typical non-athletic person can sustain around 100 watts for a long period of time, and maybe do 400 watts for a very short period.
I imagine that in a flat area 250 watts is great, but in a hilly area 250 watts is rather limiting, especially with a hub motor bike where the motor doesn't get to take advantage of your adjustable gears.
If your country only permits 250 watts, fine, but if it permits 750 watts there is nothing wrong with preferring that. It also looks like it's got a 15.5 mph speed limit, which again, we might not prefer -- locally, our legal speed limit is 28 mph.
The article is not really clear about the specifics, but does the motor's output go through the gears or not? It definitely would make a difference in hilly areas.
edit:
Oh wait, the article does make it clear after all:
So it does not get to take advantage of the gears.
BoringBob84@reddit
Class 3 ebikes (i.e., 28 MPH, no throttle) are not allowed on non-motorized infrastructure in most USA states.
Composed_Cicada2428@reddit
Not sure about other states, but class 3 are allowed on non-motorized infrastructure in NH. No idea where you're pulling this "not allowed in most states" comment from
BoringBob84@reddit
That is not true. NH uses the standard 3-class legislation.
NEW HAMPSHIRE’S ELECTRIC BICYCLE LAW
People for Bikes - Overview of Electric Bike Regulations
Composed_Cicada2428@reddit
What I'm saying is many off-highway trails allow class 3. Your blanket statement that class 3 is disallowed everywhere is incorrect. Furthermore, most class 3 can be used as class 2, if necessary.
BoringBob84@reddit
I didn't say that. Yes, there exceptions.
No they cannot. An ebike can only be one class under that standard legislation.
New Hampshire Revised Statutes 259:27-a – Electric Bicycle
That is the same in most states. I believe Minnesota is an exception.
Composed_Cicada2428@reddit
You did say that in the reply I first replied to.
My class 3 came shipped as class 2. I had to change a setting and the sticker to make it class 3. Many class 3 are delivered this way. Don’t know if you’re unaware or just being intentionally obtuse to try and prove your errant point
BoringBob84@reddit
You are moving the goal posts. I am not deceived:
Your original false claim: "most class 3 can be used as class 2, if necessary."
Your revised claim after being proven wrong: "I had to change a setting and the sticker to make it class 3."
I am making these points because many people seem to be under the false impressions that Class 3 ebikes are allowed on all non-motorized infrastructure, that ebikes can legally belong to two different classes, and that Class 3 ebikes can have throttles.
dougmc@reddit
So? I told you the local speed limit for legal e-bikes, I wasn't suggesting that this limit was global.
Also, most of my riding is done on "motorized infrastructure" -- i.e. roads -- and I doubt that's particularly unusual.
BoringBob84@reddit
Riding at 45 kph on streets requires much more power than riding at 25 kph on non-motorized paths. That is my point. 250 Watts is plenty for the latter, even on hills.
dougmc@reddit
A 250 watt hub motor will not get you up many of the local (10+%) hills without a lot of human help.
A 250 watt mid-drive with a good gear range can probably do it, however -- but this isn't that, not yet. (But maybe the next version will work that way?)
All in all, this thing looks neat, but I would not expect to "change urban biking", at least not in this hilly urban area. I can see it being more popular in Europe with their tighter limits on e-bike performance and especially in flat areas, however.
BoringBob84@reddit
I agree. 250 Watts is plenty of power for any hill, but we need the right gearing and that means going more slowly.
IndividualActive786@reddit
The motor does send its power through the 3-speed gears. The bit that you quoted is lamenting the fact that it does not downshift in a way that optimizes power and efficiency on hill climbs. The writer was pining for a manual shifter, but not being very clear.
dougmc@reddit
If there are only three gears and it switches "based solely on riding speed", then it should be in the lowest gear going up steep hills simply because you're going slow. Or is that not how it works?
I'm not sure what sort of additional optimization we would want there? The author seemed pretty clear -- how do you know better? Do you work at Bafang? Have you used the motor yourself? Something else?
IndividualActive786@reddit
When I approach a hill climb I adjust my gear-ratio and pedaling to a higher cadence to preserve momentum and delay my next shift to an even lower gear. On flat ground I use a lower pedaling cadence vs velocity.
This is what I wrongly assumed that the author was referring to.
See my comment below where I acknowledge my mistake.
IndividualActive786@reddit
My mistake. I misread it, I think because I could see no great value in this innovation if it was only for your pedaling power. This article's claims about changing urban cycling are over-blown. The people who this innovation will affect most are operators of ebike ride-share services due to less maintenance.
dankp3ngu1n69@reddit
I have a 750 watt hub
Its awesome. Can do every hill i throw at it. Even some gnarly ones
CaliDreams_@reddit
I don't know why you are getting downvoted for having a 750w when that is the legal limit in the US.
stormdelta@reddit
Because we have a lot of cycling snobs in this sub from the EU who 1) don't even realize their "250W" motor is actually closer to 500-750W peak, and 2) have no idea what US infrastructure and cycling is actually like.
CaliDreams_@reddit
Right? Then they say "250w is enough if you put in leg power" like what if someone has a disability where they cannot use that much leg power? Are they saying ebikes should only be for fit healthy nondisabled people?
stormdelta@reddit
It really feels like they're stuck seeing a bicycle as a recreational toy, and any use of electric motors that doesn't replicate that application is somehow "wrong", even when they can't name any actual evidence of a safety issue
celeste_ferret@reddit
I can climb those hills with no motor, but having 250 watts of electric assist when I need it would be great.
dankp3ngu1n69@reddit
Sure. But some of us need it.
I'm disabled. So having the extra power is the only way i can literally do it without dying.
SnikkyType@reddit
I have problems with my knees, my city is quite hilly so I tested 250-350w. They both failed to get me up the hills around the shop. I settled on 750w with max of 1kw. It gets the jobs done and doesn't make me take a few days break after each ride like the others did.
750W should be legal with 35km/h in EU. Normal bikes that pass me do more in my city(I'm locked to 25km/h). If the registration of each e-bike is needed to legalize the 750w and 35km/h then let's do it. With of course a mandatory helmet.
plasticbomb1986@reddit
"Normal bikes" are you talking about racing bikes? Those ultralight all about areo dynamics and workout bicycles? On most normal bicycle you will do around 20 kmh, most of them less. Assrockets are a different story. People who use them for commuting or regular rides are a minority, most people prefer comfort. And most people find an "omafiets" more comfortable than any assrocket. Even mtbs are less comfortable. The downside of the omafiets is efficiency and stability/ride comfort at higher speeds. But you will rarely reach higher speeds on an omafiets, because of terrible efficiency.
If you are anywhere in the EU, i hope you got a licence plate and insurance on your speed pedelec.
SnikkyType@reddit
I mean people in full tour the France fear going crazy on bike paths in my city like wtf and also ppl just on standard city bikes doing over 35.
dougmc@reddit
Clearly, some people expect you to die rather than simply picking a different, more powerful yet still legal motor, because reasons.
BoringBob84@reddit
I doubt if you really "need" it. It is a convenience; not a necessity.
6GoesInto8@reddit
That must be quite a hill if it takes 750W in your easiest gear!
CakeTester@reddit
Hub and mid motors have greatly different effects, apparently. My 3kW hub motor holds it's own on my particular hill; but there isn't a great deal of spare power on the steepest bit. It's sort of the worst hill possible...40 degree plus sustained slopes, combined with blind corners where you have to come to nearly a complete stop to check for traffic, and then regain speed, still on the slope.
6GoesInto8@reddit
Yep, this hub drive is not for you!
CakeTester@reddit
A 250W mid might just maybe do the job if it could step down gears for more torque; but the one being discussed doesn't even do that.
It's amazing the difference in power various motors and configurations can have. I based my bike-buying on my e-skate experience where I had 2x2kW motors and they were bloody useless uphill...no pulling power at all. Based on that, I thought I'd need maybe 5-8kW on an ebike, but the 3kW does fine, albeit with not much spare (it's a heavy bike carrying a heavy me up a complete bastard of a hill with cargo). I don't have to pedal though, and at my advanced age, I enjoy that aspect.
celeste_ferret@reddit
So this motor is not the one for you and your particular needs.
But it is not too weak for the majority of us and meets the regulations of the markets it is designed for.
4look4rd@reddit
Let’s see 750w rear hub on likely a fat tire bike. Try 250w mid drive from a company that actually builds bicycles and not mopped. 250w is plenty of power for a bicycle, its Tour de France levels of power output.
stormdelta@reddit
E-bikes are about transportation, not just recreation.
halfercode@reddit
You've made a clarification later on, which is that you're disabled and need the extra assistance. But in general your statement is false; ebikes at this power rating sell perfectly well across UK and the EU.
Ro-54@reddit
I’ve ridden a few auto shifting ebikes and I haven’t liked a single one. I turned my auto 3 speed off on my gocycle cause it was never in the correct gear. Auto is fine on cars but not on bikes that you pedal on. Maybe if you have a throttle and never intend on pedaling then it’s okay.
arjwrightdotcom@reddit
I immediately thought about my older mid drive (Bafang motor, NuVinci CVT) ebike and how something like this would actually be a good move for it when/if the motor or gearbox failed. Even with only three speeds, it’s kind of suitable.
Granted, this seems better for fleet vehicle, but for discontinued e-bikes like my Karmic City, could be an interesting option.
SpacecraftBathtub@reddit
Very good for most applications here in flat country.