Engine Choice
Posted by Zealousideal_Rise716@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 48 comments
I'm replacing a very ancient Yanmar 3QM 30 in a 13T 12m yacht - and my choices are the Yanmar 4JH57 or a Volvo Penta D2 60. Both will fit without too much drama - both quoted prices are within $1k of each other (although it irks me that these engines cost more than a decent car these days).
Both are quality engines and will do the job. As far as I can tell the primary difference is the Yanmar relies on electronic engine control but has a somewhat better fuel consumption, while the Volvo is mechanical injection with slightly worse fuel consumption.
Does anyone else here have any useful real world considerations to offer?
Apols in advance if this kind of question gets posted way too often. Feel free to scroll on if this doesn't interest you. Cheers.
johnbro27@reddit
Got nothing to say except years ago my brother took his 2 cyl Volvo out, threw it away, and put in a Yanmar.
LegitMeatPuppet@reddit
I have had good luck with Yanmar for years, but I have a 4JH4. So far she’s been easy to maintain and runs great after 20 years of operation.
Volvo’s have been know for being incredibly well engineered but not well designed for maintenance (difficult parts to remove, or having to do large tear downs to access components.)
I’d pick the motor that will give you the best maintenance access in the future.
gendeb08@reddit
Yanmar
Double-Masterpiece72@reddit
I've got dual yanmar 4jh57's in my boat. 2.5 years now, 1000+ hours on each. No major issues so far. The electonics stuff does add some failure points, but the Yanmars can connect to your N2K network out of the box to provide all sorts of engine information. I use SignalK and having engine data opens up so many awesome things. Here's a couple:
* Automatically turn on the appropriate navigation lights if we are under way at night (sail vs engine) also anchor light if we are at anchor, but no engine info needed for that part.
* Automatically disable anchor alarm if the engines are on and we go outside the anchor radius
* A massive historical database of all engine parameters stored in influxdb from the very first day they were turned on with very nice graphs in grafana. You could get really into comparing trends in engine temp, fuel consumption, etc over time if you wanted or needed.
Zealousideal_Rise716@reddit (OP)
As a retired automation engineer - all this is just bait 😉.
A lot of the dock rats locally all swear that electronic engine controls are going to fail the first time there's a lightening strike somewhere in the same hemisphere - but in reality they do seem fairly robust.
But worst case - what would be involved in carrying a spare control module and replacing at sea?
Double-Masterpiece72@reddit
Lightning strikes are so rare its barely worth planning for IMHO, especially since you have sails as backup propulsion.
As for how hard it would be to replace, I'm not really sure. You can definitely get spares and the manual contains a full schematic if you care to look it up.
I love my boat automation as well. I've got a Rainman watermaker I fully automated and it just crossed the 80,000 liter mark. That was a fun project to tackle. Brineomatic on github if you're interested.
ruxing@reddit
So I just read a breakdown of the Brineomatic.... the automation is for what really? Longevity?
Double-Masterpiece72@reddit
Convenience and protecting the machine. Manually running a watermaker means you have to babysit it - turn it on/off, set the valves, watch the pressure/salinity/flowrate, turn it off, flush it, etc. It usually runs for at least a few hours every day if you are cruising.
With automation I just hit a button and it does all that and shuts itself off when the tanks are full. It also watches all of the sensors so if the pressure drops or the salinity is too high it will stop it immediately.
It's all open source too so if something is wrong I can fix or change it myself. The parts are also a lot cheaper when they don't have the "marine" adjective attached.
ruxing@reddit
Great info thank you for sharing! I have been hesitant to get a WM due to maintenance issues. Will definitely look into this.
Double-Masterpiece72@reddit
I would avoid spectra or any of the Clarke pump based devices. They have a ton of extra stuff to recover energy and make them more efficient. But that also adds a lot or complexity.
Personally I like the Rainman machines as they are as simple as you can get. Just a big motor, a beefy high pressure pump, some membranes and plumbing. Add in some automation and it's the best of both worlds.
olddoglearnsnewtrick@reddit
could not find it on github. care to share a link please?
Double-Masterpiece72@reddit
https://github.com/hoeken/brineomatic
Zealousideal_Rise716@reddit (OP)
Oh that looks so juicy. That watermaker project is exactly what I had mind. Well done and thanks for making it public!
And your point on lightening is well made.
uthyrbendragon@reddit
Can you get Beta Marine in AUS? They are marinised Kubotas so parts can be had pretty reasonably if you know what to ask for.
I am considering a Beta to replace my 40yr old Volvo Penta but it keeps going!
boatstrings@reddit
Had a Beta in my last boat and loved it. Very maintainable. Easy access to filters, anodes, impeller, and fill/drain points. No expensive spare parts.
boatstrings@reddit
ps... current boat has a Nanni. Also uses the Kubota engine block.
Zealousideal_Rise716@reddit (OP)
Yes they are available here, but the price these days isn't so different to the Yanmar. And the overwhelming sentiment I hear locally is the Yanmar is better from a re-sale pov.
Which is not to cast any shade on Beta, I know many people use and like them a lot - just that I had to narrow my choices down or wind up in 'analysis paralysis'.
wkavinsky@reddit
Isn't the resale point a bit . . . pointless?
You're never going to get anywhere near the value of the engine back when you sell the boat anyway.
Zealousideal_Rise716@reddit (OP)
You are right, almost everything we spend on our boats is not going to be recouped- but it's likely to make the difference between 6 months on the market, and possibly years.
wkavinsky@reddit
Sail it over the sea to the NZ and sell it there, make more money, and spend some time with the civilised cousins, I call that a win-win.
Zealousideal_Rise716@reddit (OP)
That is in the plan 😉
My stretch goal is to spend a season in Fiordland an Stewart Is - if I get favorable winds.
uthyrbendragon@reddit
Fair point! Best of luck, keep us updated, I for one am always keen to hear how a re-engine goes as i will need to do it at some point quote soon and am putting it off as long as possible!
Robxray@reddit
Have you considered Beta Marine? We just put one in a little harbor. 43. Great swap.
Zealousideal_Rise716@reddit (OP)
As mentioned above - the Beta is a tad too long and even the shallow sump version is a tight fit to the hull. The Yanmar and Volvo both fit fine.
Robxray@reddit
Will you be able to use your existing propeller and pitch? Or do you anticipate repropping
Zealousideal_Rise716@reddit (OP)
Good question - the existing prop is a Brunton Autoprop 18" H5. The biggest I could go to with the existing hull clearance might be a 19", but I don't want to have to unless strictly necessary.
The existing 30HP drives along well enough in calm conditions, but it's not more speed I need but more torque into the water in adverse conditions.
I have asked Brunton about just re-using the 18" and they're OK with it.
ruxing@reddit
Have you considered going EV?
Zealousideal_Rise716@reddit (OP)
Yes - but it's not a good fit for my hull. Even though it's a 13T displacement, it's a relatively low volume boat all the same, and there's just not the room to practically fit everything if I did that. I'm battling with the layout as it is.
Besides my planned destinations realistically need a solid engine capable of 500 nm range.
Ok-Honeydew-5624@reddit
Its worth checking out solutions like ocean volt. If you have a generator anyways, it can be a good way to generate power under sail, and be a reliable engine with lower fuel usage
Redfish680@reddit
It’s not the engine, it’s the parts. Call your top two choices and ask how much a new “X” would be, then call Beta.
Zealousideal_Rise716@reddit (OP)
Hi no quibble with this, but I should have made it clearer at the outset - sadly the Beta 50 or 60 are both too long for the space I have available.
Redfish680@reddit
Bummer. In the end, I’d probably still weigh the cost of replacement parts pretty heavily (assuming the initial cost of the engines are in the same neighborhood). Everything is hunky dory for the first few years but then…
ruxing@reddit
You sacrifice space with battery banks for sure. So, for my vote.... yanmar all the way!
ChaserCO@reddit
Practical Sailor did a video last week comparing Penta and Yanmar. Worth a quick watch if you’re interested https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p-7PQWCSdco
pdq_sailor@reddit
Yanmar offers long term parts support for their products while Volvo is notorious for discontinuing parts support of their models forcing subsequent changes of engines for no good reason.. Our club moved away from Volvo for our launches for very sound reasons and I have yet to see anyone who has a Volvo inboard ... buy another one not because of the quality of the engine which is very good but because of their poor business support practices...
Zealousideal_Rise716@reddit (OP)
Good data point - the odds are all stacking to Yanmar aren't they?
pdq_sailor@reddit
There is a reason they sell a lot of motors.....
eotty@reddit
Where did you get that info, there are parts available for Volvo penta from the 60s.
The only VP engines i couldnt find direct parts for was small discontinued outboards, but they were licenced OMC, so while you couldnt get the VP parts the OMC was available.
pdq_sailor@reddit
Oh really ? Ask our club mechanics about the launch engines they had to service or our neighbours with their two cylinder Volvo's from the eighties on their CS 30's.. ZERO parts availability.. Volvo has a horrible reputation for parts discontinuation on their models..
issue9mm@reddit
Yanmars are great engines, and I love them dearly, but if I were in the same position as you with my 41 footer, I would prefer the Volvo for the simple fact that I do not want electronic injection
If Yanmar softens up and starts letting people purchase ECUs that they can carry in Faraday bags to work as spares, then perhaps I would change my position, but the people that I've known that have tried to purchase have all been met with strong resistance, and to my knowledge, none has managed to procure a "just in case" ECU
Zealousideal_Rise716@reddit (OP)
Interesting. Well I can only try my luck, after all maximum leverage is before you buy.
issue9mm@reddit
For sure. PLEASE let me know if you succeed? I'm not imminently looking at a repower, but we're over halfway and I'm a planner
My worry is that by the time we get to it, everything will have been forced to go electronic and I won't have that option (tho perhaps right to repair will have won the day and spares won't be the issue they are today.)
Zealousideal_Rise716@reddit (OP)
Will do. Bookmarked
Glenbard@reddit
If you plan on sailing anywhere remote go with the Yanmar. It really doesn’t matter where you are on the planet… you can get Yanmar parts…
wkavinsky@reddit
As someone with a boat that uses an outboard and petrol, don't discount the benefits that the EFI brings.
On petrol, it means no carbs and way less maintenance in general - and the EFI electronics are very likely to be solid state and epoxy encased, and likely to be just fine for the entire life span of the mechanical parts.
Also those fuel savings really add up over 20-30 years.
Zealousideal_Rise716@reddit (OP)
Solid point.👍
windoneforme@reddit
Price out spare parts for both engines. Volvo spare parts are apparently plated in gold. Look at things like injectors, fuel pumps, injection pumps, and water pumps. In my opinion and experience with customers units I'd much rather have a Yanmar when it came time to buy spare parts than a Volvo.
Every connection to a water pump on Volvo engines I've worked on required a hose barb part that stuck into the hose then had O-rings and a retainer clip held in with a screw that held it into the water pump. All the parts were sold separately all were ridiculously priced and made of aluminum that pitted and corroded. The screw holding the retainer clip would be a corroded mess and more likely than not break off in the water pump housing. Just for the hose barb, clips and O-rings was around $300-400. If I messed up the rusted bolt extraction and needed a new water pump it was over $900.
Yanmar on the other hand does like most other engine makers and uses a bronze hose barb that's threaded into the water pump with NPT sized threads. Then a hose clamp to hold the hose. It's very unlikely to ever leak and if it does almost any hardware store or plumbing shop will have something you can make work for less than $10.
This is only one small example of many different design choices Volvo uses. I've no idea why they thought it necessary to reinvent a reliable hose connection for something that's finicky and prone to leaking. What I do know is Volvo engines will usually be a bit cheaper than similar models of competitors but they seem to plan on making more in the long run on service and maintenance parts.
Zealousideal_Rise716@reddit (OP)
Ta - that's exactly the kind of info that's helpful thank you. I'm located in Australia so regionally I suspect the parts story here leans heavily in Yanmar's favour.