What was the most traumatic event in your country's history?
Posted by astral_puff68262@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 111 comments
In Hungary it's a tie between Trianon and Mohács. Even today, Hungarians say more was lost at Mohács when things go to shit. For example, your wife left you, took your kids and half your net worth. It's ok, because after all "more was lost at Mochács". For Croatia I think it was 2017 world cup when they lost to France.
legendaarrryyyy@reddit
On a more serious note - 1946 - 1991. - 1995.
First part due to attempt of completely erasing croatian identity by yugoslav/serbian government. Their lies and propaganda, imprisoning, killings...etc Second part, obviously because of the Serbian attack on Croatia, where we lost thousands of good people, even though we ultimately won.
ivanivanovivanov@reddit
You could say the end of the Second Balkan war or WW1 (which are known as national catastrophes) or even the conquest by the Ottoman empire in the 14-15 century.
But if we ignore the brainwashed population the most destructive event would be 9th September 1944, the occupation by the Soviet Union.
stack413@reddit
I'd make an argument for the 1978 Treaty of Berlin. It split the core of Bulgaria into two states, putting Bulgarians on the geopolitical backfoot from the very beginning, and it rushed the formation of the constitution, which caused enormous headaches down the line. There was also the imposed monarchy, the unresolved issues with Macedonia, and the general whiplash from the Treaty of San Stefano.
rupert_pupkin_4@reddit
Which unresolved issues?
tinmanjk@reddit
this guy has the wrong flair. It's supposed to be EU, not Bulgaria. Putting 1944 up there is a joke at best.
LibertyChecked28@reddit
Spoopy gommunism!
kerrybom@reddit
I don't agree with your assessment of Croatia's event. Yes it was sad, but also incredible how we got that far. The saddest was probably the fall od Vukovar in 1991.
Far_Confidence3006@reddit
The 4th Crusade.
CrazyGreekReloaded5@reddit
Fall of Constadinople, greek genocide , WW2 , civil war and being bombed by USA with napalm bombs, greek junta and the invasion of Cyprus
LowCranberry180@reddit
when did USA bombed Grrece?
Angeronus@reddit
The US did not bomb Greece. They supplied napalm bombs to the Greek air force and it was dropped against communists during the Greek civil war.
JazzlikeAsk8039@reddit
Idk bro is schizophrenic
CrazyGreekReloaded5@reddit
Re malakismeno you don't know the history of your country ?
JazzlikeAsk8039@reddit
i am not a historian, I also do not claim what drunk boomers say as truth
LowCranberry180@reddit
yes is it WW2 but it was against Nazis?
pitogyros@reddit
Probably he/she refers to the United States providing napalm bombs to Greek government to use against communist rebels who tried to overtake the state.
In short : no , USA didn’t bomb Greece
CrazyGreekReloaded5@reddit
In early 50s/late 40s during civil war and literally bombed entire Villages people forced to move in soviet union as refugees. They even established concentration camps in many places in Greece with local traitors
LowCranberry180@reddit
never heard thank you for the ınformation.
USA also established Gladio in Turkiye in the 1960s against socialists. They also supported the coup of 1980
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
Backstabbing of our allies in BW2. We gave our blood for in BW1 to liberate their lands by fielding an army bigger of the rest of the Balkan league combined, only to find out about their secret landgrab pacts afterwards.
tinmanjk@reddit
Bulgaria died right then and there. We've been a zombie nation ever since.
Capital-Ad-3795@reddit
to me, for the modern times it’s Greco-Turkish war and the population exchange. also can add pogroms in 50s.
shadowminds97@reddit
I’m from Romania, and similar to Hungary, our biggest historical traumas are also territory-related - more precisely, the Second Vienna Award. At that time, it was a huge shock for the north-western part of Transylvania, which was returned to Hungary (as it had been part of Hungary before), and then came back to Romania in 1947. But I think for most Romanians, the deeper trauma is the loss of Bessarabia (now the Republic of Moldova). In any case, history is history - we should enjoy the present. I’ve lived my whole life in a multiethnic city with a significant Hungarian community, and I really appreciate this heritage. I truly hope Romanian-Hungarian relations will grow even better.
Axu3371@reddit
No, i don't hope this. Why should we be friends with a nation that spreads 24/7 propaganda in the internet and wishes us the worst? Their government is sucking Putin with the hope of a destabilization in Europe and majority of their population is supporting this. They claim lands where even over 300 years ago the Habsburg empire counted Romanians as majority. Even with this post by OP he claims it subtile. Like its such a trauma when they lost occupied stolen lands. Poor they...Do you see Germany claiming half of Poland, or France claiming South Germany or Austria claiming half of Eastern Europe? Its just they with their brainwashed propaganda. They are one of the best treated ethnic minorities in Europe here in Romania. They have their own schools in Hungarian, they can freely live out their religion, they can speak Hungarian as much as they like, their culture is very well represented in most of Romania and they even have ministers and mayors. Still they decide to spread around the world that they dont have rights.
power2go3@reddit
Hungarians are pretty chill people. In Ro and in Hu. I don't associate myself with those who spew hate the same way I don't associate myself with AUR pro-russians.
Axu3371@reddit
I know that there are good and bad people, but this doesnt make this what i said wrong. As a collective they wish us the worst and the internet is full with Hungarian propaganda against us. They got indoctrinated with trianon propaganda since decades and this mindset wont dissapear anytime soon out of nothing. It is what it is...
Dazzling-Key-8282@reddit
Strange, I can't recount a single piece of indoctrination from my school life and I can say that my academic career in Hungary was pretty average.
Hungary didn't have a nationalistic dictatorship during communism and in the '90s it wasn't a popular strategy of our political elite to point at the Romanians to cover their asses while they bled the country dry, contrary to what Iliescu tended to do just across the border. That's the crux of most enmity between Romanians and Hungarians, because the people living besides each other happen to get along just fine for most.
But certainly, Hungary doesn't need to spread any anti-Romanian propaganda. We just have to sit and wait for you do us the favour. Your mindset it pretty decent at the job, to be fair.
power2go3@reddit
Well to be fair Iliescu only pointed across the border to create enemies to better control society. Did the same with other categories.
Dazzling-Key-8282@reddit
Yeah, Meciar did the same in Slovakia. That maffia state wasn't disestablished either, not even today. Fico was his lawyer back in the '90s, then he took the helm after 2006.
Axu3371@reddit
Wait for what lmao? The only way you can be successful is when EU and NATO both dissolve and a ww3 breaks out and even then you have to hope that Russia will be on your side and will be the winner of ww3 (you will become a Russian puppet then). This is your only option, so keep trying to spread your propaganda in the internet, its worthless. Transylvania alone has a bigger economy than whole Hungary....keep crying for territories. And even if you will get it by a miracle, 85% of the population are Romanian. You will become almost a minority in your own country. And we rather would contaminate the whole region then letting you grab it.
Dazzling-Key-8282@reddit
Yeah, that's about the yapping one can expect of you.
Not even realising I wouldn't want Transsylvania back, and most Hungarians don't want it either, or wants it at most as a romantic idea but certainly not the reality it entails. Jingoist bravado just like what you yourself exhibit, does apply to a select few ofc.
As for the matters of fact:
Hungary is about to boot it's Russian bootlicker, so no thank you.
Transylvania doesn't even have half the GDP of Hungary, but keep trying. Hungarians still make up 20% of the population even by your counts.
NPPs are just a fucking joke. You have no plans to make any of them in Transsylvania. You are just being psychotic man.
Axu3371@reddit
There are 2 regions in Transylvania where Hungarians live: Harghita and Covasna. Outside of that you barely meet any Hungarians. 80% of them live only there. Its under 20%, do you reaseach right.
Also you should google again, Transylvanias economy is same as big or meanwhile even bigger than Hungary. And yes, im psychotic towards Hungarians, so?
Dazzling-Key-8282@reddit
Bro, whip put the data according to which your three clobbered macroregions of Vest, Centru, and Nord-Vest are anywhere near being similar to the Hungarian GDP. I beseech you.
Your other point is so laughable that I won't even entertain it. Just around 40% of Hungarians in Transylvania live in the two counties.
Axu3371@reddit
Transylvania as a whole.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvania
Last data is from 2023 almost 200 billion.
Dazzling-Key-8282@reddit
Without a single fucking citation. Yeah, I take facts I pulled out of my ass for $200 Alex.
Then dropping another source which only speaks of the Romanian economy as a whole.
This is even laughae by your standards.
Axu3371@reddit
https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/profile/ROU
Transylvania makes around 50% of Romanias economy., so the data is right. Maybe infrom yourself or just ask chat gpt, if you arent able for some research.
Dazzling-Key-8282@reddit
Maybe consult Eurostat if you are so simple that you can't even use basic online tools
nama_10r_2gdp
Nord-Vest: 39,208 billion Centru: 34,804 billion Vest: 28,423 billion
Hungary: 196 billion
All in 2023.
Happy howling
Axu3371@reddit
That are not all regions what is known as Transylvania, you are missing a bit. Both have around 200 billion currently and Romania as a whole over 405 billion. Anyways im tired...
Dazzling-Key-8282@reddit
So enlighten me, which regions are still included in Transylvania?
Oltenia? Muntenia? Maybe even Bucharest?
That would be the only way to reach the numbers you mention.
Axu3371@reddit
Banat, Crișana and Maramureș also. Im talking about the historical Tranaylvania.
Dazzling-Key-8282@reddit
So even with added Regions the numbers don't even reach half of what you claim they are, but miraculously if we'd deduct some of it the economy should become twice as large, and equal in size Hungary.
Logic must be your worst enemy.
Axu3371@reddit
This are the numbers that you listed by yourself above:
Nord-Vest: 39,208 billion Centru: 34,804 billion Vest: 28,423 billion
This alone is above half of what was Hungary in 2023. If you add Banat, Maramures and Crisana we come to the same numbers im talking about. All territories that were known as Tranaylvania when they were part of Hungary. Maths isnt your thing, right and you tell me something about logic.
Dazzling-Key-8282@reddit
You are either a troll of completely oblivious about the NUTS subdivisions of your country. These three regions entail everything (save for tiny bits here and there) that once belonged to the Kingdom of Hungary. Even Bánát, Partium and Máramaros.
You add them up, you come to just about half of the Hungarian economy, as listed by Eurostat.
NoNegotiation3126@reddit
you sound like a paranoid halfwit
Axu3371@reddit
Then tell Orban to stop putting money in his propaganda troll farms and tell him to stop claiming territories when he comes to Tușnad.
NoNegotiation3126@reddit
you are full of shit. you accuse Hungarians of being pro Putin when you almost elected Simian-on? without the Hungarian and Moldovan votes he would have been elected, and he is a proper far right moron plus a Russian slave. and you criticize us for claiming territories when your compatriots dream of Greater Romania? when your former president Basescu said that Romania lasts until the Tisa? de la Nistru pân-la Tisa? how many Romanians live near the Tisa in Hungary? you see a speck of dust in your neighbor's eye, but do not see the beam in your own. just stfu you utter hypocrite crybaby.
Axu3371@reddit
No, i don't hope this. Why should we be friends with a nation that spread 24/7 propaganda in the internet and wishes us the worst? Their government is sucking Putin with the hope of a destabilization in Europe and majority of their population is supporting this. Hungary can go back to Mongolia, im happy for them that they became so poor.
outlanderfhf@reddit
Cred ca op nu vrea sa raspunda =)
Dame_Ivy@reddit
Did you have to mention 2018?
Hmmm I would say between 91-95' would suffice. And falling under Austro-Hungarian empire could also be considered.
Sad-Term-280@reddit
Id say what the cros did in ww1 was more traumatic
Dame_Ivy@reddit
You mean NDH?
Sad-Term-280@reddit
We're they not cro?
Dame_Ivy@reddit
Not everyone who was killed during the Ustaša genocide were ethnic "minorities". Some were political enemies and anyone who disagred with hiw they run the place. So croats also died and that time gave us a bad rep which is one of the factors that have lead to the Croatian-Serbian war in 91'-95'.
Sad-Term-280@reddit
What is your point? I was just saying what the cros did during ww1 was the most traumatic
Dame_Ivy@reddit
Oh sorry I missunderstood your question. Yes it was horrible.
Dontspeaktome19@reddit
Treaty of Sevres
Shogolarotx@reddit
A toilet paper in other words
Chance-Struggle-6285@reddit
This probably
latalatala@reddit
Why are you downvoting this like it didn’t happen?
CrazyGreekReloaded5@reddit
What exactly happened ?
Eerofen@reddit
Essentially the Albanians that were left outside of the Albanian borders were victims of systematic genocide
CrazyGreekReloaded5@reddit
Any proof? Are those Albanians in the room with us right now? Cause i only know that Albanian chams sided with Nazis and committed crimes against local Greeks ! When you play your victim card try to be realistic at least
Eerofen@reddit
Come on man, don't deny genocide, not cool
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Albanians_in_the_Balkan_Wars
CrazyGreekReloaded5@reddit
When I'm in a victim card competition and my opponent is an Albanian who comes from a nation who committed the most atrocities in Balkans! Wikipedia articles written by nationalists Albanians i guess? Chams sided with Nazis and committed crimes against local Greeks they took as bad guys what they worth as they vanished entire villages in north of Epirus
Eerofen@reddit
I don't know why you want to compare instead of sympathizing, but since you do, the Greeks still did more and worse than the Albanians
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cham_Albanian_collaboration_with_the_Axis
CrazyGreekReloaded5@reddit
Worse ? Can you name any atrocity committed by greeks ?
Niocs@reddit
what are you talking about? 😂
MoneyLaunderX@reddit
Most delusional people in Europe lmao
BDP-SCP@reddit
For Istria for sure was WW1 and collapse of Austria - Hungary, in 1918 Istria became part of Italy, next year came fascism, volilance, repression, eveything non Italian was prohibited, people names were even changed to sound more Italian, WW2, even bigger disaster, complete split between fopr Yugoaslv and pro Italian factions, violence, reression, Yugoslav military occupation, changing of names, some 50 % of the population left, new borders. Today Istria is sadly divided between Italy, Slovenia nd Croatia.
2neuroni@reddit
The Ribbentrop-Molotov pact. The USSR annexed Bessarabia and North Bukovina. Oh, North Bukovina wasn't even part of the pact, but they annexed it too, just like that, because they could. It is the only reason the Republic of Moldova exists today, and not a part of Romania.
This motivated Hungary to annex North Transylvania, and Bulgaria to annex South Dobrudja.(we don't really care about South Dobrudja anyway).
All this, WW2, and the communist regime.
vbd71@reddit
Is this sour grapes? Asking honestly.
Neutrinomind@reddit
No, we legitimately don’t really care. I don’t even think if you polled romanians, that the majority would know we had it incorporated into the country. Most “nationalists” care about Moldova and North Bukovina,then are the ones who like to bash hungarians. But of course we have a segment of people fixated on interwar borders and a portion of them do care about cadrilater, so if you are a bulgarian you may meet such people disproportionately on the internet.
2neuroni@reddit
We just acknowledge that it was a landgrab in 1913, there weren't many romanians living there.
We ruled that land from 1913-1916, and from 1918-1940.
HearingDifficult7143@reddit
1/3 is bad but not 72% :D
2neuroni@reddit
Yeah I get what you're saying
outlanderfhf@reddit
Can confirm, great grandparents were refugees from N Bucovina
bluecoldwhiskey@reddit
1922 since it meant the end of our presence on 1 shore of the Aegean permanently.
WW2 is next
GoodZealousideal5922@reddit
Apart from the World Wars, the Civil War of 1997 was the most traumatic event in Albanian history. The entire national gun storehouse got ransacked and people were firing guns at random in the streets, everyone was forced to stay home and take shelter because nobody knew if they could get shot.
power2go3@reddit
Communism.
Land changes you can deal, but the deep psychological scars of communism are still there especially in the political class. How many Romanians left right after communism ended? A whole generation basically.
Before this, the greek phanariote rule, for the two principates.
Salty-Succotash3338@reddit
The fall under the Hungarian rule after the death of king Petar Snačić at the battle of Gvozd.
BasCeluk@reddit
Not accepting The Treaty of London in 1915., these stupid cunts...
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Where to begin lol
War from 92-95 was awful
World War 2 was also awful
World War 1 “started” here and was likewise, awful.
Ottoman occupation was awful.
We had a few good years during SFRY and some more during Austria-Hungary. It’s sad when the Middle Ages, where people died from a cut, is one of your countries “better” eras.
Funny-Rich4128@reddit
The Pitesti phenomenon in Romania, young men tortured to the brink of death just to experiment torture metods and ways to assure someine would die a few days later from internal trauma. Ughhhh I have the description of large icicles made out of blood during winter. The inmates were pissing blood from the internal trauma and dumping the piss out thebwindow and during winter it made blood icicles
NightZT@reddit
In my region of austria it's common to say that Trianon was the best thing that happend to us lol
shadowminds97@reddit
Haha, I’m really curious why!
NightZT@reddit
My federal state was part of Hungary up until 1921 and there were quite a few measures to magyarize and assimilate the mostly german and croatian speaking population. With Trianon we became part of Austria
astral_puff68262@reddit (OP)
What happened to Croatians in your federal state? They were Germanized?
NightZT@reddit
Afaik only the Nazis made attempts to germanize or resettle them, apart form that not really. Still about 10% of the population are croats but with globalization and immigration to vienna many kids don't speak croatian that well anymore and colloquial language switches to slowly to german. But e.g. the local radio and television program is party in croatian, especially old people often don't speak german that well
concombre_masque123@reddit
what_ do you speak german in Austria?
shadowminds97@reddit
Ah, got it! It’s about Burgenland - I read years ago about the plebiscite that took place in Sopron.
NightZT@reddit
Yeah exactly. Fun fact, there was a proposal to give Burgenland to Czechoslovakia to connect with Yugoslavia and form a slavic mega state
Mucklord1453@reddit
Fall of Constantinople
astral_puff68262@reddit (OP)
How are you a rum? Do they still exist in Turkey? Aren't they Muslim?
LowCranberry180@reddit
No a small Greek minority exists mainly in Istanbul. Some are well known artists.
Mucklord1453@reddit
A Rum and a Greek is the same thing, always has been.
vbd71@reddit
Except in the Ottoman Empire.
Only-Dimension-4424@reddit
Which one? 1204 , 1453, 1918 ?
Mucklord1453@reddit
1204 and 1453 and 1922 when the Greek Army and Navy was asked to evacuate Constantinople.
They should have defied the British at that point through, and took their chances to keep East Thrace. Ataturk had no navy.
Pantolonun_Utulusu@reddit
And some Turkish (ultranationalist) historians say that Turkey should not have left the islands to Greece as Greece did not have the strenght to keep fighting without British support, and Britain’s public opinion was too against supporting another war.
I guess with lands, it is never enough.
LowCranberry180@reddit
The 1876 Russia Turkish war. Defeat after defeat Russians came overtake Istanbul and only stopped by the British. Some of family migrated than from what I know Ruse to Istanbul. By 1878 it was clear that the Ottomans were kept alive only to be partitioned later.
Thalassophoneus@reddit
I guess the burning of Smyrna and the final excursion of Greeks out of Asia Minor and Constantinople.
George_noob@reddit
I'll second that. It's still a very sore spot for people today, considering many of them (especially where I'm from) are the descendents of those refugees
sarararatuc@reddit
All of it.😝 But people focus what's in their recent memory, past gen, or what the propaganda TV tells you .
I would say: Ottoman wars. Only a teeny -tiny bit was left in the north-west, people left, taken, new mixy-mix added to stay. Population centers shifted, some parts never recovered, now are periphery only good for wildlife. Lots of effects to this day.
Football is not even close.
idis838392@reddit
First balkan war probaly.
vbd71@reddit
A flair would be helpful, my Roma bro.
Silent-Laugh5679@reddit
By far the most traumatic event in Romanian history is the occupation of Romania by Russian forces, the obliteration of Romanian leadership under the bolsheviks and the following decades of dictatorship that started after 1947.
FlightTraditional700@reddit
I'd say WW1.
VeziMe@reddit
Yeah specifically Albanian Golgotha
MatchAltruistic5313@reddit
For Croatia, 2018 was a huge party. For a country of 3.5 million to play in the WORLD cup final of the most popular sport on Earth is definitely something to remember. I can't even comprehend how you can think of it as a tragedy.
Similar to Hungary, a lot of our history is influenced by the Ottoman invasions. It was a terrible period, the Ottoman catastrophe still echoes in modern geopolitical tensions in the region and what once was Croatia.
We study the battle of Mohač (Mochács) as well since we were in a personal union with you guys and consider it a tragic loss against the incoming scourge. But our major loss was at the battle of Krbava field (1493). It would ultimately lead up to what was known as the "Reliquiae reliquiarum", or the "Remnants of remnants" where the Croatian borders were reduced to a very small part of it's initial territory.
Another traumatic period would be the totalitarian regimes of the 20th century. During fascism in the NDH one of the greatest tragedies would be Jasenovac extermination camp. The following communist regime would not be much better. Numerous mass graves and failed attempt to subdue our nationhood.
Although something that was much more recent and people still feel the effects of is the War of independence (1991-1995) where a large part of the country was torn to pieces due to serbian aggression. We are still digging up mass graves from that terrible terrible war.
DifferentSurvey2872@reddit
WW1 for sure
Dear-Potential-3477@reddit
For Serbs hard to decide between ww1, ww2 and the Yugoslav wars but it was probably ww2 the slaughter was on an industrial scale and the brutality made even hitler wince.
shadowminds97@reddit