Airlines and their Subsidiaries

[-]

Ilove_gaming456@reddit

Why would lufthansa need 2 city airlines?

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

Lufthansa CityLine was originally called Lufthansa Regional. They operate aircraft such as the CRJ, ATR, BAE146, etc.

Lufthansa City Airlines is based in Munich and flies A319s and A320Neos

[-]

AWalkDownMemoryLane@reddit

That doesn't answer the question OP asked.

Lufthansa City is set to replace Lufthansa CityLine to get rid of "unfavorable union contracts at Lufthansa CityLine" such as agreements on the limits of the size of aircraft as well as existing agreements regarding the payment of their employees.

Lufthansa CityLine was also never called Lufthansa Regional, the latter was merely the name CityLine operated under similarly to how Air Nostrum uses the name Iberia Regional.

Lufthansa CityLine also no longer uses BAes or ATRs.

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

New post here https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

Interjet256@reddit

Thank you for sharing! This is fascinating info!

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

New post here. It's much improved https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

two-plus-cardboard@reddit

ANA is missing some, most notably is PanAm

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

New post here https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

KinksAreForKeds@reddit

Do we really care? Was there a point? Like, are we supposed to be angry? Surprised? Impressed? It's not like these corporations hide any of their connections in the first place.

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

New post https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

N104UA@reddit

Lufthansa is all wrong, you missed subsidiaries and the airlines are subsidiaries of the Lufthansa Group not Lufthansa, for example Swiss is not a subsidiary of Lufthansa (the Airline). However you do have some subsidiaries of the airlines. Also I wouldn't consider Sun Express to be a subsidiary, it is a joint venture (business kind of the immune from Anti-Trust kind).

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

New and improved post https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

marten_EU_BR@reddit

the airlines are subsidiaries of the Lufthansa Group not Lufthansa

This is simply not true, and I think it's risky for you to criticize OP when you're also spreading misleading information...

There is no legal entity called "Lufthansa Group." The legal name of the entire company is Deutsche Lufthansa AG, which is the same legal entity as Lufthansa German Airlines.

This is different from the situation with IAG, where British Airways and Iberia are technically subsidiaries of the larger group.

Contrary to this, Lufthansa mainline is not a subsidiary of the Lufthansa Group. The Lufthansa Group is merely a brand appearance without any legal basis.

If you don't believe me, take five seconds to look at the legal notice on the Lufthansa Group airlines' websites.

Lufthansa is Lufthansa, not a subsidiary of the Lufthansa Group. That's a legal fact.

[-]

Matosinhoslover@reddit

The TUI page must be from hundreds of years ago.

The 5 national airlines all go under the TUI label. Thomas Cook went bust and Blue Scandinavia hasn't been a name since the 80s. After that it was Britannia and prior it was called Transwede.

But if you wanted to do a TUI vintage thing, you should also add Hapag Lloyd, HLX, First Choice Airways, Air 2000,...

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

Here is my new post https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

AlwaysSunnyInManc@reddit

TUI also never owned Thomas Cook. They were major competitors! God knows where this is from, as you say.

[-]

upbeatelk2622@reddit

In the last 15 years, ANA has been using Air Japan as a "lower-cost" subsidiary. ANA itself is one of the most prestigious companies that Japanese graduates squeeze to get into, but if you've had a baby for instance, or you previously worked for a Western airline, chances are ANA's not going to take you, but Air Japan would for slightly lesser pay. Air Japan is also where the ANA group hires non-Japanese pilots (one was arrested).

Air Japan planes are hand-me-down 767s and 787s from ANA mainline.

ANA flights "operated by Air Japan" are lower in personnel cost but they are expected to be indistinguishable to the passenger. HND flights are higher yield with more premium pax, they get more of ANA proper; NRT flights have a higher likelihood of Air Japan operating. However in recent years, ANA might have begun to use Air Japan on HND longhauls, as was the case recently on a SEA flight where an American man became unruly and bit a cabin crew.

During covid, tabloids reported ANA grabbed some government contract for covid measures, made Air Japan staff do it, and unlike regular flight duty, they were absolutely not allowed to wear any ANA ID badge or even an ANA lanyard.

It was also during covid that ANA had the idea of making Air Japan its own brand again - the logo you see in OPs picture, highlighting R and J blissfully ignorant that Royal Jordanian has been RJ for decades. They received ANA's 1st and 3rd 787-8s with one galley removed and all economy seats. Regular Air Japan crew, who also wore ANA uniform to operate ANA flights, would be rotated onto their own planes and wear Air Japan uniform to operate their flights.

Air Japan dared claim on its website that it's "Not an LCC," however they deal with IRROPS the same way as an LCC, they're not going to help you or refund you. On Feb 22, 2024 the flight NQ2 (BKK-NRT) had a landing gear issue and was only cancelled after leaving passengers uninformed from like 2am to 6am at the gate. Not an airline I would fly! The Thai government getting involved and basically made Air Japan refund everyone. At this point Air Japan only had 1 787 in their own name, which is actually against Thai aviation law (an operator must have a fleet of at least 2). Should I go on? lol

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

New post here https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

cosine-t@reddit

Thoughts on subsidiaries or thoughts on the infographic?

Subsidiaries - it makes sense, a way to diversify profits and protect losses from one arm to another. Overall the parent company will always "look good"

Infographic - poorly done with some errors here and there

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

Thoughts on my new post https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

usgapg123@reddit

This is outdated. Where is ITA for Lufthansa?

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

Here https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

Bahaman23@reddit

This shit is ass bud

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

Check out my new post then https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

itmeMEEPMEEP@reddit

should add ITA to Lufthansa

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

Here you go sir https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

I_like_apostrophes@reddit

…and Aegean?

[-]

itmeMEEPMEEP@reddit

Aegean is not part of Lufthansa group

[-]

I_like_apostrophes@reddit

Thank you. Live and learn.

[-]

cogitoergosum9@reddit

OP - what was the point of this?

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

I guess because why not. What is the point of anything really. Check out my new post https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

sodium_hydride@reddit

Ragebait for autistics apparently.

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

No I just did this in my spare time for fun.

[-]

sodium_hydride@reddit

It is a fun concept but you need a better source of info.

[-]

dpaanlka@reddit

And better graphing software.

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

Stay tuned

[-]

koala619@reddit

This has to be ragebait

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

Nope. I have made a new one https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

No I'm sorry you see it that way.

[-]

Matosinhoslover@reddit

Well it worked, we all commented. The nerds can't accept this level of inaccuracies.

[-]

usgapg123@reddit

Could you include percentage of ownership? Westjet is not a subsidiary of Korean Air, but is only partially owned by them.

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

Here is a new article https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

I'm going to make a revised version of this since people are not very happy in the comments. I did this on my lunch break so please forgive me 😂🙏

[-]

mister_magic@reddit

IAG is missing at least Vueling. I guess IAG Cargo doesn’t have any of its own planes anymore?

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

New and improved https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

LupineChemist@reddit

It doesn't even try to get hierarchy. Like BA CityFlyer under BA, Iberia Express under IB. Then there are franchise agreements like Emerald Air and Air Nostrum.

[-]

Adrift_on_the_Tide@reddit

Also, IAG is majority-owned by Qatar

[-]

mister_magic@reddit

Largest shareholder, far from a majority.

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

You just reminded me. I had Vueling saved but I must have forgotten to add it. IAG cargo manages its cargo through the airlines, British Airways World Cargo ceased operating its one aircraft a while back. They operated a 747-8F on behalf of Atlas Air into London Stansted. DHL actually takes over cargo at Heathrow, they fly an A300-600 every day and have a giant cargo terminal there. I'm not sure if Iberia has any cargo history.

[-]

gilby24@reddit

Thoughts? Quite rubbish really, incorrect information everywhere.

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

New one here https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

Technical_Penalty_46@reddit

Absolute garbage

[-]

Maleficent-Body9617@reddit

Lufthansa is incomplete.

Not even speaking of the non flying companies of LH group.

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

I couldn't fit every company on the page sorry. I included the flying companies only, I couldn't even fit the now defunct airlines without making it a cluttered mess 😅

[-]

Hot_Net_4845@reddit

The TUI page consists entirely of deduct airlines. They all either formed different airlines, that became a TUI subsidiary, or are like Flyglobespan and Thomas Cook, who have no relation to TUI at all

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

New and updated post here https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

TUI and Thomas Cook actually shared services with each other. TUI took on a lot of Thomas cooks management department when they went bankrupt and took over their part in the leisure industry. Previously they both operated as a joint collaboration investing in new hotels and villas together. Thomas Cook and TUI would share bookings and invest a considerable amount of money together in the 2010s. I included it because they actually operated multiple travel agencies for Thomas Cook.

Since TUI has had a massive rebranding I included the older more original names, they all still operate apart from jet4you.com which was made defunct.

[-]

Hot_Net_4845@reddit

They weren't a subsidiary though. And that doesn't explain why Flyglobespan is randomly added in

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

TUI once had an 80% share in flyglopspan before it was liquidated. They had a maximum share of 28% with Thomas Cook Airlines. And they even had a 5% share with Monarch Airlines. TUI was then rebranded to TUI UK Limited and left TUI Travel PLC which previously saw both airlines as subsidiaries sharing stores across the nation along with airline seats, travel miles, and even food. Thomas Cook's origins go as far back as Britannia, British AirTours, and was actually replaced by Aer Lingus UK

[-]

bankkopf@reddit

There are flying companies missing from Lufthansa, Edelweiss for one and if you include cargo on other airlines and Aerologic, Lufthansa Cargo is also missing. And then there is Eurowimgs Europe as subsidiary of Eurowings.

[-]

rolexdaytona6263@reddit

And ITA airways..

[-]

bankkopf@reddit

ITA is still majority owned by the Italian government, Lufthansa only owns 41%.

[-]

rolexdaytona6263@reddit

Yeah, but LH has an option to purchase more shares

[-]

Jesse_Livermore@reddit

Came here as well to point out the lack of Edelweiss

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

I updated the post https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

LupineChemist@reddit

Also Lufthansa Group isn't the same as Lufthansa airline.

[-]

Maleficent-Body9617@reddit

Lufthansa airline has zero subsidiaries.

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

They have CityLine, Lufthansa Cargo, and Lufthansa City Airlines. And technically Swiss International Airlines since they share pilot training courses using and use the exact same facilities unlike other Subsidiaries. Even Edelweiss use different facilities

[-]

LupineChemist@reddit

They have cityline

[-]

profkimchi@reddit

Jetstar should explicitly say it’s Jetstar Japan.

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

Here you go sir https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/agAnBOy6iS

[-]

Baybad@reddit

Isn't it still only a 50% stake?

[-]

Sassaglas@reddit

Yes, it's a joint venture

[-]

profkimchi@reddit

Dunno the percentage, but yes i know it’s less than 100.

[-]

on3day@reddit

Its less than 101% i am 100% sure.

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

I couldn't find a Jetstar Japan .PNG logo sorry.

[-]

profkimchi@reddit

All good. Fair enough.

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

I just posted a new Updated article with more accurate measurements

[-]

TheGororb@reddit

Apologies for my lack of knowledge, but what is the reason for all these subsidiaries?

[-]

FlyingOctopus53@reddit

Transaero? How old is this shit?

[-]

TrippinNL@reddit

Very, most Tui brands are renamed to TUI

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

TUI Brands such as TUI Fly Nordic were renamed as part of a giant reorganisation plan. They still operate the same as they were before, Arkefly for example hasn't changed. TUI UK however did because before it was part of TUI Travel PLC, But it is now simply TUI UK Limited. This meant the loss of First Choice Airways PLC which is now a joint venture with TUI AG and Firat Choice Limited.

[-]

TrippinNL@reddit

The name arkefly hasn't been around for almost 10 years. Hell even Arke, the travel agency is renamed to TUI years ago. You're talking out of your ass

[-]

Beckoll@reddit

Transaero wasn`t subsidiarie of Aeroflot, it is not true.

[-]

Hot_Net_4845@reddit

It also has Flyglobespan, who ceased in 2009. Unless there's a different Flyglobespan I don't know about

[-]

EmbarrassedPart6210@reddit

The TUI one is wrong. Most of those have become TUI subsidiaries or have ceased operations completely

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

All of them still operate apart from jet4you, flyglopspan, and Thomas Cook

[-]

EmbarrassedPart6210@reddit

Right, so those three shouldn’t be here. And the ones that do operate have different names - HapagFly, for example, is now TUI fly Deutschland

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

Hapag.fly is actually TUI AG, which then has TUI GmbH as a subsidiary. Hapag.fly was a joint venture between Hapag-Lloyd, and Hapag-Flug, which then merged with Hapag Express to make TUI AG.

[-]

DutchBlob@reddit

The name ArkeFly has been phased out since 2013

[-]

dpaanlka@reddit

ok

[-]

Rns_0297@reddit

Swiss -> Edelweiss?

[-]

SimulationPC@reddit

LOL you missing Vueling, just the most profit airline of the group and 140 airplanes and is not in off

[-]

pushiper@reddit

Did you draw those lines by hand, in paint?

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

By hand in hypic (mobile app)

[-]

hornyincalgary@reddit

stopped reading when i saw "ANAL Inspiration of JAPAN"

[-]

ReadyWhippet@reddit

Nothing beats a Jet2 holiday...

[-]

SqareBear@reddit

Jetstar is owned by Qantas

[-]

LudicrousPlatypus@reddit

RIP Thomas Cook

[-]

dj6586@reddit

Jetstar and Westjet I wouldnt have guessed. Cool

[-]

Hot_Net_4845@reddit

Korean have a 10% stake in WestJet, Delta have a 15% stake, and Onex Corporation have the rest. Jetstar is Jetstar Japan

[-]

Japanisch_Doitsu@reddit

Delta has a piece of everyone.

Korean Air Aeromexico Air France-KLM LATAM WestJet China Eastern Airlines Virgin Atlantic

[-]

aloalonso@reddit

I’m curious, why is that

[-]

Jusiun@reddit

As a way to increase partnership and expand route networks.

[-]

F1shermanIvan@reddit

Yeah WJ is not a subsidiary of Korean at all. They just own a bit of it.

[-]

TkachukMitts@reddit

I did a double take at this too, and it seems to be incorrect. Korean has a stake in Westjet but nowhere near enough to make them a subsidiary.

[-]

takecareofurshoes13@reddit

Yeah, 15 % is an equity investment. Westjet is absolutely not a subsidiary of Korean.

[-]

McFestus@reddit

Exactly, bizarre to call a 10% stake a subsidiary. Softbank owns 10% of Nvidia, doesn't make them a subsidiary.

[-]

sloppyrock@reddit

Jetstar itself is a Qantas subsidiary. Jetstar Japan is a JAL / Qantas / Tokyo Century Corporation

[-]

Dubaishire@reddit

Some of those are wrong I think.

Also EK, EK SkyCargo & FlyDubai

[-]

sodium_hydride@reddit

EK, EK SkyCargo & FlyDubai

Emirates Airline and Emirates Sky cargo are part of the Emirates group but are essentially the same airline in terms of operations/AOC etc.

Flydubai is an entirely separate company.

[-]

Cagliari77@reddit

SunExpress ist not a subsidiary of Lufthansa. Rather it's a Joint Venture of Lufthansa and Turkish Airlines.

[-]

Benny_Goldz@reddit

Aer Lingus Regional is not owned by IAG, it’s privately owned by the guy who also owns Dublin Aerospace. They fly under the Aer Lingus regional banner, because they won the regional contract which was operated by Stobart Air before, which has now gone bust.

The real name of the company is Emerald Airlines.

[-]

Dracogame@reddit

IAG also has Vueling, even if Vueling isn’t part of oneworld.

[-]

IcY11@reddit

So many mistakes. For example Lufthansa. AeroLogic is a joint venture of DHL and Lufthansa Cargo. And Lufthansa Cargo is entirely missing for some example.

[-]

TrippinNL@reddit

How old is this, all the brands are renamed to TUI or TUIFly

[-]

Technical_Penalty_46@reddit

BA Connnect..? That has to be 20 years ago now, surely? How old is this crap??

[-]

By-Eck@reddit

BA Connect no longer exists

[-]

Bourbonaddicted@reddit

Doesn’t Luftansa own Lauda airlines as well?

[-]

By-Eck@reddit

Ryanair owns Lauda

[-]

Sacto1654@reddit

If you fly from western Japan to Okinawa or several of the islands on the Ryukyu chain, you’re likely to fly JTA.

[-]

ketchup1345@reddit (OP)

I actually didn't know this until I made this post. JAL has quite the many brands.

[-]

Sacto1654@reddit

I think JTA was formed to fly from the Japanese home islands to several islands on the Ryukyu islands chain.

[-]

EGLLRJTT24@reddit

Yeah, it was called Southwest Air Lines before JAL started increasing their stake in the company (JAL don't own it outright now, it's around 75%). JTA also owns Ryuku Air Commuter (RAC) which operates the turboprop flights between the Ryuku islands with a small fleet of Dash 8s.

Also, for OP, JAL's ownership of Jetstar Japan is only 50%, Qantas own 33.3% of it. That 33% is why it carries the Jetstar branding and not the JAL branding.

[-]

ErmakDimon@reddit

red Rossiya and Donavia can't coexist, because red Rossiya was formed by merging Donavia and Orenair with silver Rossiya.

Also, Transaero was never an Aeroflot subsidiary.

[-]

wubbusanado@reddit

Could indicate % ownership and board representation. For instance, I think in the delta / Korean deal with WestJet they jointly obtained two board seats. So while folks are right that WestJet is not a subsidiary there is at least board-level influence.

[-]