Silly hypothetical: Can you gain night currency using a STOL aircraft by doing three stop-and-gos on a really long runway without ever gaining more than 100ft of altitude?
Posted by chasepsu@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 91 comments
Just a dumb hypothetical I came up with while avoiding thinking about my instrument checkride tomorrow: So say you need to get night current. You have access to a STOL aircraft and a nice quiet long runway. Could you legally gain night currency by doing three stop-and-gos on the runway in a row by taking off, gaining, say 100ft of altitude, touching down, stopping and repeating two more times? Is there anything that says how long you have to be in the air before a takeoff/landing combo counts towards currency?
DogeLikestheStock@reddit
Just put whatever you want in your logbook bro. Flight time is the honor system.
PilotC150@reddit
Three takeoffs and three full stop landings. If it’s a takeoff and landing it counts. The FARs don’t specify time in air, altitude or anything else.
chasepsu@reddit (OP)
That's what I figured. Now I'm just chuckling at the idea of a "Night currency" logbook entry that's 3 TO/L and like 0.2 of Hobbs time.
GingerB237@reddit
You could also fly tight patterns and do it quickly. 12 min would be close on 3 patterns.
run264fun@reddit
I’ve seen cubs fly low and tight patterns too. Maybe 200AGL at the most
GingerB237@reddit
I have done 200’ patterns on off airport stuff but for actual air strips it usually has other buildings and stuff so I go up to normal pattern altitude.
Cherokee260@reddit
If you can check the lights start the engine taxi out do three laps and shutdown within 12 minutes I will give you a cookie
thrfscowaway8610@reddit
Obviously I'm not an American, but where I did initial training, pattern height was 250' AGL. We could have earned your cookie with a minute or two to spare.
Cherokee260@reddit
In what aircraft? That’s pretty low here in the U.S. even for ultralight planes
thrfscowaway8610@reddit
Morane MS-880B. Basically a French-built equivalent of a PA-28, only much more fun (sticks instead of yokes; semi-aerobatic; cockpit canopy that could be slid back in flight and flown in convertible-mode on hot days as long as you didn't exceed 90 kt).
Cherokee260@reddit
Man that would scare me being so low in a single for the entire length of the pattern.
FollowingNo862@reddit
I’ve spent entire days flying under 250’ AGL and most of that around 10’ AGL. You get used to it.
thrfscowaway8610@reddit
It was pretty flat, with decent-sized farmers' fields all around. No great danger, and nobody to disturb on the ground except the odd cow or two.
kilosoup@reddit
So a French AA-5, with sticks? Based on my (limited) experience in Grummans I'm already a fan.
thrfscowaway8610@reddit
I've never flown the little Grummans (a Jim Bede design, no?), so I'm not really in a position to compare. But I did love the Morane. I'd have bought one of the Polish license-built versions, the Koliber, if it hadn't been for the fact that spare parts are almost impossible to get.
SSMDive@reddit
I think it can be done.
Logging does not legally start at engine start anyway, but from when it first ‘moves under its own power for the purposes of flight’… So you could start warm up, mag check and then blast off from where it was parked and be starting at zero. Land and stop on #3 and shut down and the clock stops.
Cherokee260@reddit
Kania 2004 LOI expounds on that reg
SSMDive@reddit
Ok, but what part do you say is relevant here? Because from reading, it seems to all still depend on the INTENT of flying. Shutting down your engines for deice on the way to the runway is still INTENDING to fly, just like doing a run up would count since you INTEND to fly and had already started moving.
The legal definition of ‘flight time’ is when you start moving to fly, not start the engines. Sure students start logging as soon as the Hobbs clicks, but that does not change the actual definition. And many planes don’t start logging Hobbs time till a certain airspeed or the weight is off the wheels.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-1
All that letter seems to support is that once you start moving on your own power with the intent to fly… The log starts even if you stop.
In my scenario, you start the engines, warm up, mag check, and then blast off from the tiedown.
14 CFR 1.1 - Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing;
Cherokee260@reddit
I must’ve misread your original comment I thought you were saying the run-up was not including in the flight time
SSMDive@reddit
If you start and do the run up before you move, it would not be (which is what my comment said).
If you started and taxied somewhere to do the run up, it would count.
IFlyatM90@reddit
Agree, not sure why you got a down vote. You could start the plane up in the run-up block, do the 3 TO&Ls and taxi clear in less than .1 Hobbs if you really wanted to game the system. Something like a Cub or any STOL airplane and you could do it easily. Seems like a fun, until something happens and the FAA asks why you started your takeoff roll 1/2 down the runway.
Drunkenaviator@reddit
"Because I need 200' to get airborne and halfway down this runway the TODA is 5600'"
SSMDive@reddit
Some people don’t like facts, and I’m pretty sure at least one person DV’s anything I post that they see.
dpetngl@reddit
My 182 Hobbs doesn’t tick till the engine starts :)
Cherokee260@reddit
Yours is probably measuring oil pressure then. Hobbs meters have a variety of ways that they work. That still means you have to factor in taxi, run-up and time before shutdown into your calculations.
dpetngl@reddit
And honestly the checklist items for the G1000 once the engine is on takes a good chunk if you do it by the book
Cherokee260@reddit
Do you prefer flying with a physical or digital checklist? I’ve never flown with a PFD that had checklists loaded in
dpetngl@reddit
Should’ve been more clear - the checklists themselves aren’t stored in the G1000, but there are several more steps in getting that ready to go compared to a 650 or something like that. I do fly with both - regs require me to use the physical checklist but I back it up with custom flows in ForeFlight.
dpetngl@reddit
Yeah for sure! But no ticking during a thorough preflight
BattlingGravity@reddit
I guess I’ll take a cookie sometime.
That’s super doable if you’re used to flying out of grass strips in the middle of nowhere. That’s basically what my taildragger training was like. TO, climb to ~500 feet, power off 180 to the numbers, reset flaps and do it again.
Cherokee260@reddit
Sorry but the cookie offer was only to Ginger-😢 I have a limited supply.
sharth@reddit
I suspect they meant: upwind climb to 500 AGL, crosswind, downwind, power off 180, touch and go, repeat.
BattlingGravity@reddit
Tease.
usmcmech@reddit
15 minutes is my personal best, I’ll try to do better next time.
OldOrchard150@reddit
At my home field on a calm day, I often land 36, fast taxi to the end, take off 18, etc. This is a private grass airfield, so basically no traffic and I can fly a super tight pattern. Airplane is parked at the edge of the runway, so also zero taxi time. It is possible, but .1 per lap is more common.
Cherokee260@reddit
Lol I did that once at this super unpopulated 3500 foot strip. Good times
JSTootell@reddit
I'm not doing 3 in 12 minutes for sure. But when I was getting that checked off with my CFI, we were getting some fast laps at a local, empty field. We were the only ones there.
Funny thing was, the next field over, closer to our home untowered, was packed with students in the circuit.
GingerB237@reddit
I mean all those other things besides the 3 laps also have to be done. I assumed the person I replied to was talking about 3 TO/L in .2 not total flight time. Most of the year I’m not even getting a run up done in under 12 min since the engine has to warm up.
Cherokee260@reddit
Okay good cause I was wondering about your estimation. They mention a logbook entry so that would be total time
GingerB237@reddit
Going from parked to parked and getting in the air at all is going to be more than 12 min if you’re actually getting your oil up to temp first. I will say I only have to taxi 150ft ish to get to the runway at my home airport and almost no traffic.
Classic_Ad_9985@reddit
Now can you just just takeoff and landings on a 20,000’ runway in 5 minutes? 😂
cwebster2@reddit
It's not that unusual. I flew at an airport with intersecting runways and tower would let you (when traffic allowed) takeoff on one and keep a tight pattern to land on the other runway, then midfield takeoff from the first runway. Worked out really efficiently to get 3 full stop landings in no time.
bhalter80@reddit
I did it in .4 last night including taxi in and out at a 6000' runway so a 3000' field would have been closer to .2-.3
Illustrious-Cow5908@reddit
Yeah though i bet theres an interpretation on it somewhere
Accomplished_Bus5661@reddit
When I was in flight school at RDU one of my fellow students wrote and email to the FISDO and they actually replied if you can do it yes it counts.
xywh@reddit
I did 216 touch and goes in 1 hour at a towered airport. Tower counted them. Counted as 432 operations to them. Still have the record. So yes, it can be done.
Doc_Hank@reddit
I have. At Vandenberg AFB - 11,000 x 200' runway at the time (15,000 now), and about 20 knots straight down the runway. Three takeoffs, three landings, taxied back to the Aero Club in my M18, total time about 12 minutes.
Heavy_Notice3544@reddit
KHSv 18R. 12,600ft RWY class E when tower is closed. Give er a go!
Reputation_Many@reddit
NO, that goes against the Intent of the rules. Just because it doesn't break the rules specifically doesn't mean you can still do it. There is the intent.
cyberguy44@reddit
Questions like these are why I have Reddit. I love it
th535is@reddit
As long as it’s full stop, it’s within the letter of the regs, if not the intent. I’ve joked about doing it at BHM with its 12k’ main runway but never actually done it.
virtualflying@reddit
If you need a little more room come up to HSV, we’ll give you an extra 700 feet
semiprobookie@reddit
I would argue it is within the intent. If they wanted "each landing to include a flight in the traffic pattern" they could have included it. They use that exact verbiage for the 10 takeoffs and landings for commercial.
HoldingWithNoEFC@reddit
I fly seaplane. Some of my runways are 40, 50, or 5000 miles long. I'll do this all day (but not at night!) and you bet each landing counts for currency.
LateralThinkerer@reddit
Taking this to a larger level of abstraction - if you did it in on floats in the ocean you could be on the same "runway" for days.
AirborneWelborn@reddit
There’s nothing that says you can’t. I logged three full stop landings in one pass on 16R at KSLC during my PPL training in a Sport Cruiser, climbing to 100’ after each takeoff. One of the coolest flights I ever had. ATC found it hilarious.
It is implied that you’ll leave the runway environment, such that your landing and takeoff maneuvers are separate. The only real definition of runway environment is in 91.175 which is why we climbed to 100’, that’s sorta a gray area. I’ve questioned several DPEs since then and they all agree it was legal.
Cherokee260@reddit
The FAA has a gray area??? No… it can’t be
honkey-phonk@reddit
You want regulations that are specific for their intent and leave everything else open. It’s like a good requirement—specific and testable, but not over constraining.
A good example of this on GA is 23.2505, basically it meets its intended function. What’s the intended function? Whatever you define it to be. Seat massagers for pilots? Great, define how they’re suppose to work then test and show they work as defined. FAA still has to approve test plans and reports, so it’s not the Wild West—but you have the ability to make it what you want it to be within reasoned bounds.
Cherokee260@reddit
I want regulations that use clearly defined terms. For example, does the anticollision system defined in the Letts LOI refer to a PHYSICALLY attached system or is it naming the entire thing a singular system under the spirit of them sharing a function? Because that can make the difference between being legal to fly if a STROBE is inop. Another one- find a definition of two-way radio communications. I couldn’t. But the FARs reference them when describing entry into Class D and Class C. Does it likely mean you call up and hear your call sign? I’m sure, but how do I PROVE stuff like that to students when there’s no reference to it anywhere besides some example scenarios in the AIM that are incredibly limited? And don’t even get me started on the sea of legal interpretations I have to wade through or explain to provide. a simple explanation as to logging time legally.
AirborneWelborn@reddit
The FAA only has one gray area and I’ve found it
Cherokee260@reddit
Well, I’m not sure about the FFA…
Blackhawk510@reddit
beep...beep...beep...
"...Sssslayerrrr..."
Sunsplitcloud@reddit
Using a super cub at an old SAC base, surely. 12000 feet long is 3x 4000’ runways. When you only need 200 feet to take off, just climb straight ahead to 100’ chop power glide to each landing. Might e en use barely half the runway. Taxi time will certainly be longer than the flight.
10FourGudBuddy@reddit
I thought it specifies a normal pattern, but I may be remembering something else.
Pitiful_Series_6172@reddit
Posts like these remind me that this sub still has some good left
jlp_utah@reddit
While it may satisfy the wording of the regulation, it does defeat the purpose.
yeahgoestheusername@reddit
Aren’t approaches part of that? Those would be some pretty short approaches.
The-Convoy@reddit
In Australia the regs for this specifically stated you must make climb to at least 500ft
KurttGoBang@reddit
I could have sworn a lap in the pattern meant getting to pattern altitude, but I can’t cite it, and I ain’t looking for it, so go for it.
TheGacAttack@reddit
What part of the currency requires a lap in the pattern?
KurttGoBang@reddit
Like I said, going by memory, can’t cite anything. Don’t care to cite anything either. Just could have sworn that to fly a lap in the pattern you had to fly all legs of the pattern up to a pattern altitude. If you don’t, more power to you, get after it.
gbchaosmaster@reddit
You’re thinking of 61.129(a)(4)(ii) for commercial aeronautical experience. For currency that isn’t specified.
TheGacAttack@reddit
What does flying the pattern have to do with this topic?
ThatsSomeIsh@reddit
He is probably confusing it with the requirements for night flying for commercial certificates.
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
gbchaosmaster@reddit
VTOL guy here. Yep. I’ll log pretty much anything as a landing.
Hover auto? Log it. Repositioning in the circle? Log it. I left the ground and then found myself back on the ground. Far as I’m concerned that’s a landing. ¯\(ツ)/¯ My record is like 45 in a flight.
Does it go against the spirit of currency regs? Sure, but I fly every day anyway, and wouldn’t fly passengers if I wasn’t proficient, currency be damned.
twistenstein@reddit
I love all the dumb hypotheticals that are easier solved with a few penstrokes.
Hairy_Afternoon_8033@reddit
There was a guy who convinced Austin’s atc to let him take off 36R, land 18R (which is 12,250ft) full stop. Took off again on 18R and landed again 18R to full stop. Then he turn around and took off 36L and circled back to 18L. He had the video up on YouTube for a while. I think it was around 17 mins to get his night currency.
colin_do@reddit
https://imgur.com/a/7T1hV1w#eQYxzkF
My best effort yet. Depart 5, enter left downwind for 13, stop & go, enter left downwind for 23, touch & go, enter left downwind for 31, stop & go, enter left downwind for 5, full stop landing and back to the hangar.
mi_pilot@reddit
Yup, and nope!
Plus_Goose3824@reddit
Doesn't full stop imply clearing the runway? What your describing is hard to separate from a touch and go. Yes, the plane is stopping, but how long is it legal to just chill on the middle of a runway after landing with intent to take off again before it becomes reckless?
cficole@reddit
A lot of us do stop and gos for night currency when there's no other traffic, or a tower clears us for it. As soon as we stop, it's flaps up and go. This is something that's been done for years, and I haven't heard of the FAA making an issue of it. We don't need taxi practice, and I don't see it as reckless when there's no other traffic. We use the radio and watch for aircraft lights.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
Nowhere does it say clear the runway, otherwise you couldn't do stop and goes for currency.
jobadiah08@reddit
Shoot, an airport near me is untowered at night with a 12000 foot runway. Could do 3 stop and goes in just about any GA plane
usmcmech@reddit
Not hypothetical, I’ve done it.
minfremi@reddit
I think the full pattern is only required by the regs (correct me if wrong) to meet training requirements.
If just currency, takeoffs and landings to a full stop!
cazzipropri@reddit
Full stop? Yes.
MicroACG@reddit
There are a lot of ways you can skirt the regulations and do something dangerous. If enough people do this and then brag about it, we'll see some clarifications in the regulations down the road lol
throwaway5757_@reddit
Yeah, but I wouldn’t. But yeah. AFAIK
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
Hell I’ve bounced landings so bad I did my 3 in a few hundred feet. Only need to be full stop in a tail wheel
phliar@reddit
Why not?
Once a long time ago I was in the pattern for runway 30 at KPAO early one morning with no one else around. The winds were calm and I guess the controller was bored, and said "Citabria 2508Z, do you want to buttonhook and land 12?" Of course I do. "Proceed, and after that you can buttonhook and land 30, repeated buttonhooks authorized, advise when you're done." In the next 30 minutes I probably got 15 full-stop (stop-n-go) landings. Most efficient "pattern" I've ever done.
Cherokee260@reddit
The term full stop is one of those fun little FAA terms that they are just non-descriptive enough with to make you confused but trick you into thinking you may know an answer for certain. If you can land to a full stop, I suppose it’s possible, but it does sort of violate the spirit of the maneuver. They’re trying to make sure you’re gonna be capable of flying a pattern when you bring pax with you.