Why do people believe .22/ .22 Lr are un capable of killing someone?
Posted by Own_Honey_5432@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 262 comments
Is this that everyone ego is boosted by using firearms?
Xynphos@reddit
Will 22lr kill someone? Absolutely. Do I want to be shot with it? Hell no. Will I pick it over a superior defensive round? Also no.
PlayingDoomOnAGPS@reddit
If the attacker bleeds out from a .22lr wound after stabbing you to death, it really doesn't fucking matter how "lethal" the round was. If I have to shoot a gun to save my life, I don't give a single fuck about lethality; I need the round to immediately incapacitate. A .22 hit that lets him work me over before he bleeds out is WAY less effective than a centerfire hit that immediately stops him from killing me, even if he lives through it.
Efficient-username41@reddit
Is point blank to the head lethal you think? I'm watching a cop show and someone did themselves in like that.
PlayingDoomOnAGPS@reddit
I imagine it would be, most of the time anyway. That's not really relevant to the self-defense discussion though.
Efficient-username41@reddit
Oh okay
Efficient-username41@reddit
Because it's relevant to the conversation of lethality in general.
PlayingDoomOnAGPS@reddit
Did you read the comment chain you're replying to? Because it's all about how lethality does not matter. Immediate incapacitation is what matters, not lethality.
th4tguy321@reddit
Only way to do this is a CNS shot, at which point caliber is almost irrelevant.
wheredowehidethebody@reddit
Large, energy-dissipating rounds are immediately incapacitating to center mass. .40, 10mm, .45, .357 dissipate energy in soft tissue that creates hydrostatic shock and damages the cns indirectly. So your margin of error for the shooter becomes smaller.
Caliber is always relevant.
Dangerous_Gas_4677@reddit
This is what ret*rds who don't know anything about ballistics say
SteveHamlin1@reddit
It's generally accepted that bullets going less than 2,000 fps do not create significant hydrostatic shock, and thus no significant tearing in the surrounding tissue.
th4tguy321@reddit
I've heard higher, like 2,200. But the point stands, pistols are pistols, rifles are rifles.
PewPewPony321@reddit
*SBA5 has entered the chat
th4tguy321@reddit
Nope. They're too slow to have this effect. Rifles on the other hand...
Pistol rounds all kinda suck and just poke holes to varying degrees. Placement and penetration depth matter more than theoretical energy dump.
Here's a video with experts in the field talking about it, https://youtu.be/T6kUvi72s0Y?si=SHIdWCUT6Rvj80Cq
willgreenier@reddit
Tell that to a 12ga slug going 1,500 fps
th4tguy321@reddit
12 gauge has the unique advantage of starting at .69" already. Such a large frontal area is going to displace more 'material'. It's a much larger projectile at still faster than pistol speeds.
It doesn't challenge the fact that, "pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles".
lethalmuffin877@reddit
Hmm, that is interesting data…
Glad I’m working with 147g HST +P for carry and 110g TAC tx for HD
Drake_Acheron@reddit
This information is incorrect. The size of the round is not what determines whether or not hydrostatic shock occurs. Typically, it’s the speed of the round.
Also, there were about half a dozen studies that showed that 9 mm was a better self-defense round than 40 or 45 which is why pretty much all police agencies across the entire country switched to 9 mm.
And even then you will see people taking 8 or 9, 45 caliber or 9 mm or 40 caliber shot and still running down at police officers.
There is a reason why all the new self-defense SOP’s revolved around shot placement.
Please, please please stop consuming the fudd-lore and learn more science so you can spread truthful information.
LegendActual@reddit
JHPs blown out to like 0.7-1.0" may make the difference of actually clipping CNS stuff if it's not a complete dead on hit over them being 0.22", especially assuming you likely have more rounds in your center fire and it's less likely to jam.
th4tguy321@reddit
So you're talking about just aiming for center mass and hoping to get lucky.
If you "NEED IMMEDIATE INCAPACITATION" you have to aim for CNS.
At which point, once again, it doesn't matter.
Also, what carry ammo you got that's expanding to 1" and reliably hitting 12+" of penetration?
Comfortable_Music586@reddit
Just shoot him in the head, shot placement is key
nyotao@reddit
.22 pistol used in virginia tech shooting
PlayingDoomOnAGPS@reddit
Which is not even remotely relevant to caliber selection for defensive use but ok, I guess.
Novel_Situation762@reddit
How lethal the round is doesn't matter. Because all rounds are lethal. 22 was actually great for self-defense, considering most guns can hold a ton of rounds and you can easily mag dump someone with high accuracy. And it can also be quiet because suppressor is with 22s are like Hollywood level quiet.
I just shot a p322 with a suppressor today it's literally as loud as a pellet gun it's actually insane. It's the exact same as Hollywood level quiet it's incredible I didn't even believe that existed. No ear protection required is crazy.
But let's say someone tried robbing you in your car and you shoot them with that, that would be extremely easy since it holds like 20 rounds. And it wouldn't attract attention since it's so quiet.
Obviously a 9 mm will have more stopping power, but honestly I think if anyone got shot by 22 it would stop them even if it was only one or two bullets. It would hurt enough that it would easily incapacitate you. If not kill you if
Drake_Acheron@reddit
Actually, I would choose 22 LR over most other things because 22lr has more rounds.
As shockingly it matters more than anything I would rather have more attempts to get the right shot
There are a ton of studies out there that show that the size of a pistol caliber bullet doesn’t really matter that much when it comes to “stopping power”
That’s fudd-lore
Illustrious_Crab1060@reddit
then why aren't cops using many of the tiny center fire cartridges? For example .32 ACP?
Drake_Acheron@reddit
Cost. Availability. Standardization. Joint training and operation. Same reasons they don’t use 5.7
stinkyboy71@reddit
exactly, give me .45 caliber or .556 anyday
JackCooper_7274@reddit
Smol ass boolet
daeather@reddit
No, big
disturbed286@reddit
Depends on whether it's " or mm
JackCooper_7274@reddit
My bad
TwoCarz@reddit
5.56 **
bafben10@reddit
That's a little overkill, that's over twice the size of a .223!
Quw10@reddit
CCI makes some actual jacketed hollow points called uppercuts. I made some homemade ballistics gel and was pretty impressed since most the regular hollow points just zipped through without much deformation. I'm not saying it made me wanna start carrying one but it wouldn't be my last choice in a self defense scenario.
Pepe__Le__PewPew@reddit
This is the only take that matters.
Xanderg2004@reddit
I think it could also be a case of most people not having been shot by a .22. Kind of like how everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.
BluesFan43@reddit
My brother in law was a surgeon, and a gun guy.
He explained hydrostatic shock like this.
Someone gets shot with a .22, I go sew up the holes and 3 days later they go home
Someone gets shot with your rifle, a 7mm Mag, I go in and sew up the holes and 3 days later they have a funeral.
That is why .22 is less thannideal, will it kill, yes. Will it stop, not quickly
Own_Honey_5432@reddit (OP)
and that’s the exact reason i love the .22/.22Lr will neutralize the threat in the moment
Just-Buy-A-Home@reddit
No, not what’s being stated here lmao. Put three holes of .22LR in someone, chances are they will be hurt, but there’s a much larger chance they still have time to come after you for it
Novel_Situation762@reddit
Highly doubt it. If you hit them in the head it's over already. Hit them in the torso you likely already hit vital organs, and or they will bleed out and don't have the strength to reach you. Shoot them in the legs, they probably can't run
Just-Buy-A-Home@reddit
There’s a large difference in the size and shock of a .22 coming out of a 22 LR sized bullet vs something like a 9mm. The kinentic energy is vastly different, and hitting a vital organ (besides the brain) such as a lung is far from an immediate death sentence
Novel_Situation762@reddit
That is true. But it doesn't need to be immediate for it to be effective. It's still incapacitates them enough to where they're not going to be able to effectively harm you or chase you
BluesFan43@reddit
Yes, don't have to kill, but must stop them.
A9-EE-78-6A-C8-9F@reddit
This is a dumb take
Underwater_Karma@reddit
well, I talked to a trauma doctor and he said a .22-caliber bullet will lodge in the lung, and they can probably get it out. A 9mm bullet blows the lung out of the body.
that's good enough for me.
Beebjank@reddit
They're obviously lethal and nobody is gonna say otherwise (and be right about it).
But when people say stuff like "22 is adequate for self defense because it's still lethal" is fucking stupid. Rimfire is horrifically unreliable even out of the best .22 firearms shooting the most premium .22lr ammo. "Its better than nothing" like ok. Doesn't mean you have to choose the worst option.
Novel_Situation762@reddit
It still is adequate. Because it's easy to shoot
Drake_Acheron@reddit
Finally, finally, someone mentioning that the problem is the rimfire.
That being said the best defensive round is probably the 5.7.
It is going to be more reliable than other pistol cartridges like 9 mm and 45, because they are less likely to have failure to feed malfunctions and failure to eject malfunctions. Making them overall more reliable.
The 5.7 round can also reach velocities over 2200 m/s meaning that they can inflict hydrostatic shock. Which means you don’t necessarily have to target the central nervous system to stop someone from attacking you.
Because of the shape of the round also 5.7 pistols tend to have higher capacity and due to the smaller mass of the round lower recoil
This means that 5.7 pistols will have better control, better capacity, better reliability, and less concern for For shot placement.
gr3y_-@reddit
5.7 is not the best defensive round and it’s not even close. in handguns it has lsss energy than the weakest 9mm ammo. with ALL handguns (including 5.7) the primary means of incapacitation is crush damage, which is increased by size and weight of the round. 5.7 is absolute shit for self defense, it’s tiny and is NOT imparting hydrostatic shock the way a rifle is despite your repeatedly false claims that it does so. 5.7x28 is the same concept as the 4.6x30, and they have essentially equivalent muzzle energies. the 4.6 is actually FASTER and even out of the mp7’s longer barrel is STILL notorious for being an anemic cartridge when it comes to stopping/killing people in defensive/combat scenarios. 5.7 is slower and would fair absolutely no better.
Comfortable_Music586@reddit
Nah 00 buckshot is the best
cathillian@reddit
Make 25acp great again!
A_Queer_Owl@reddit
a modernized take on .25acp with higher pressure/velocity and a truly rimless case might actually not be terrible. it'd be a commercial dead end because the current legal landscape makes such a cartridge pointless in many major markets, just like how .30 SC ended up, but it wouldn't be terrible, just like how .30 SC isn't.
cathillian@reddit
That’s a great take! And unfortunately you are right about it not catching on. It would solve the reliability and feed issues that 22lr has. It would also have similar velocity and performance and could be carried for the same reasons why someone would choose/ be limited to carrying 22. But hell 22 is so cheap that there was a time you could damn near buy it by the pound and that’s one aspect 25 would never be able to compete with.
rockit_jocky@reddit
I've been building a tolerance
Novel_Situation762@reddit
Inconceivable
RabicanShiver@reddit
I have a dead uncle courtesy of a 22lr.
Novel_Situation762@reddit
Dang I'm sorry
Still_River_1519@reddit
It's all about shot placement with any caliber weapon. A well placed shot with a 22lr. is immediately fatal if it hits someone in the head.
RacerXrated@reddit
Because people suck at nuance. Can it? Yes. Will it reliably stop a motivated human threat? No.
Drake_Acheron@reddit
Actually, when analyzing the effectiveness of pistol cartridges be .22 LR was the most consistent at stopping a motivated human threat. This is because it was found that the most important factors in consistency or capacity and recall control.
However, the .22 failed in regards to reliability due to its rimfire construction.
Does the 9 mm check the number one spot.
However, 5.7 was not compared and drawing conclusions based on the information we have about the 5.7 round and the parameters of the study we can infer that the 5.7 round would be better.
One of the big reasons for this is because the 5.7 round and cause hydrostatic shock as the 9 mm can’t which means short placement is actually less of a concern with a 5.7 and it is for the 9 mm. Combine that with the fact that the 5.7 has a greater capacity, lower recoil, and is less likely to have failure to feed or failure to eject malfunctions, making it more reliable, it’s a pretty clear winner. Which makes sense considering the entire point of the 5.7 being created was to be better than the 9 mm.
gr3y_-@reddit
common bullet weights for 5.7 are 40 grain. 40 grain bullets from pistols are going 1800 fps at the muzzle at BEST. this is 200-400 fps LESS than the MINIMUM necessary to impart hydrostatic shock in any meaningful way that overcomes tissue elasticity to actually cause damage
Comfortable_Music586@reddit
If I shoot someone in the head with a 22lr and they keep coming at me than holy shit
DryFoundation2323@reddit
It's not about it capable or incapable of killing someone. It's about ending a threat as quickly as possible. You can certainly kill somebody with a 22. It happens all the time actually. It's quite possibly the most common round used in murders especially gang murders because it's cheap and easy to get a hold of.
However in a self-defense situation you don't have time to dick around. You need to eliminate the threat right away.
crinklepant@reddit
Eh, with the same exact shot placement, a .22 will “end a threat” just as quickly as a higher caliber AND a .22 will make it easier to achieve said shot placement
the only context where putting a bigger hole in something will meaningfully matter is hunting, where youll be potentially tracking a bleeding animal and thus want it to bleed out as quickly as possible
people overly obsess over the mythical idea of stopping power, but keep in mind the US police went from 9mm to .40 and then back to 9mm after realizing it wasn’t relevant
I wouldn’t trust a .22 for self defense exclusively because of reliability issues with rimfire, ballistically its absolutely adequate for self defense
Drake_Acheron@reddit
Why is this down voted This is factually all correct.
Did you edit your comment or something and it said something else before?
Just suck or some added detail
When analyzing the effectiveness of pistol cartridges in defensive situations, it was found that the most important variables were reliability and consistency
Consistency was defined as the ability for the use of that cartridge to end a threat quickly. It was found that the two greatest variables or establishing high consistency capacity and recoil control. And the .22 scored the best out of all of the pistol cartridges analyzed.
However, we fire nature of the .22 made be partridge the most unreliable of all of the rounds tested, and this is why the 9 mm took the number one spot for the most effective pistol cartridge.
However, the 5.7 cartridge was not tested but based on the information we have from the test and what we know about 5.7, we know that 5.7 would perform 9 mm in every way.
5.7 is less likely to have failure to feed or failure to eject malfunctions therefore making it more reliable in use it’s masses smaller making its recoil control more manageable. The shape of the cartridge allows for higher capacity magazines. And the speed of the 5.7 KG makes it one of the only pistol cartridges that can inflict hydrostatic shock.
This means it is one of the only pistol cartridges where shot placement isn’t quite as important in terms of “stopping power.” However, some of the other cartridges that provide the same functionality either fall behind in other aspects, such as capacity and recoil control, or are basically extinct.
gr3y_-@reddit
the actual statistics show that 22 LR has something like a 30% failure to stop rate in defensive shootings. it is not, was not, and never will be the most effective defensive round in any category except maybe amount of rounds. the 22lr is the WORST defensive cartridge available alongside the 25 acp. they’re tiny, lightweight, and extremely weak. they may technically be lethal but you’re not hitting a perfect heart or brain stem shot in a defensive scenario regardless of your john wick fantasy
chemicalgeekery@reddit
Also in gang murders the person is often being shot with it 10 times at very close range.
sxrrycard@reddit
If the bad guy bleeds out in the hospital 30mins after he has already harmed you, did it even matter?
Drake_Acheron@reddit
This is gonna happen with basically all pistol calibers. Yes including .45. The two things that will stop an attacker are hydrostatic shock and disrupting the central nervous system. Hydrostatic shock is basically impossible for everything but the 5.7, the 7.5 and bubbas pissing hot hand loads (maybe.) This is because the primary variable to cause hydrostatic shock is speed not mass.
There are many studies that have gone over the most effective pistol cartridges.
The two biggest factors on measuring the effectiveness of pistols, are reliability and consistency. Consistency being defined as when the firearm is deployed the target is stopped. It was noted that the biggest factors affecting consistency were magazine capacity and a recoil control. Of which the .22 was definitely the best.
However, reliability was defined as the ability for the ammunition to perform as design without causing weapon malfunctions. And to this .22 was the worst of all tested pistol cartridges.
Dismount the 9 mm was the best choice with the most effective defensive round which is why basically every police agency in the United States switched to the 9 mm
gr3y_-@reddit
5.7 does not impart hydrostatic shock from handguns.
A_Queer_Owl@reddit
well there'd be no more victims after you at least.
gokartninja@reddit
I don't know anybody who thinks .22lr is incapable of killing someone.
But if youre referring to defensive gun use, the goal isn't to kill someone, it's to stay alive. If your assailant has enough time to put a knife in your body before they die, your defense failed
Comfortable_Music586@reddit
Yeah but to stay alive you have to neutralize the threat so technically you have 2 goals
gokartninja@reddit
You have to neutralize the threat before they cause you grievous bodily harm
deelowe@reddit
Killing someone isn't the same as stopping the threat.
Comfortable_Music586@reddit
Close enough I mean you still stopped the threat right dead or alive
deelowe@reddit
5 months huh?
Anyways, I could poison you with radiation and you'd eventually get cancer and die. Not sure it'd do much to stop an immediate threat.
22lr is a stupid defense round
Cornywillis@reddit
There is some internet mumble jumble for sure but the reality is even 9mm struggles to bring someone down. Watch some police encounters and you will see that immediately. The reality is bigger holes mean they bleed out faster. Controversial take…but 40sw is actual far more effective than 9mm. Bigger bullet flying as fast as a 9mm. But im sure reddit dungeon crawlers will disagree with me.
Better_Island_4119@reddit
The ability to stop someone high on drugs and or adrenaline is not the same as being lethal.
Comfortable_Music586@reddit
Lol kinda sound like you're on something
Cornywillis@reddit
Lmfao
spinonesarethebest@reddit
And .45ACP is more betterer.
Cornywillis@reddit
Naw bro. 50ae at a minimum
spinonesarethebest@reddit
lol nothing like a surprise hand cannon.
aabum@reddit
For several years, I worked in trauma centers. Needless to say, I've seen more gunshot wounds than I can remember. I've seen many folks shot with 9mm who were in good shape. Get stitched up and go home. Same with 38 special. Surprisingly, I've seen folks shot with a .357 who were fine.
Granted, many were shot with FMJ, though oftentimes hollow points and soft points either fail to expand or minimally expand.
.40 S&W may be a bit more damage, but to be fair, if they stole a .40, it was more likely to be loaded with some sort of hollow point. One fellow who had been shot several times, he had the scars to prove it, said the only gun that stopped him was a 45acp.
On the other hand, I've seen people shot in the head with a .380, a .32, a .25acp, and a 22lr who were very dead from the bullet bouncing around inside their skull.
Compare all the pistol GSWs to rifle GSWs, and unsurprisingly, the rifle wounds create a tremendous amount of damage. It really underscores that pistol rounds aren't very powerful.
Then there's 12 gauge. I've literally seen heads blown off, holes in bodies you could stick your fist through. Not only an excellent killing cartridge, but it gives you "Holy shit" moments, too.
Own_Honey_5432@reddit (OP)
nbs i’ve seen a few meth heads take some on cop body cams 😂
Cornywillis@reddit
Not just meth heads. Even people not on drugs. Some people can tank shots some cant. Tons of evidence for it too. Honestly most pistol rounds are that way. Rifles are far superior for that reason. Speed seems to mean more tissue damage and disruption. Add a bigger bullet to that speed and it is far more effective.
Hoplophilia@reddit
I'm not sure I'd call facts a disagreement but "far more effective" simply isn't borne out. More like "slightly above a rounding error," along with considerably higher cost to train, more recoil (=slower follow-up), fewer rounds. When you remove those elements it's hard to argue against 230gr +P. But it is undoubtedly a valid self-defense cartridge to be taken as a whole package.
dayankuo234@reddit
they may be lethal hits, but doesn't mean the person won't stop running at you. the point is to STOP the threat getting hit by a hollow point 9mm is more likely to STOP someone than getting hit by a .22.
Comfortable_Music586@reddit
Depends on where the round hits him, a 22lr to the head is a lot more lethal than 9mm to the leg...think about that
Comfortable_Music586@reddit
Just watch the show homicide Hunter, a lot of people on there were killed with a 22lr, even 25 autos as well
Howboutit85@reddit
how much more lethal does everyone suppose .22WMR can be?
Comfortable_Music586@reddit
It's a potent little round
ImOkButNott@reddit
Because of this "plus size" mentality. People want always more, more, more. Bigger bigger bigger. Its not like that in firearms world. Its basically a "men menthality" "ah... 22 serves to plink and shoot rats only". Not at all. 1) Its cheaper than any other caliber. So people with less financial luck can still have a chance for defense. So its more democratic. 2) If you want it for sport, is pleasant, light, low recoil, again cheap (gun and ammo) and you just have a good time without spending too much, with pistols, revolvers or rifles. 3) For home defense, people dont realize that you want to kill/stop the intruder but DONT want to kill a son or a wife in the bedroom right behind the guy. If you shoot the head of a guy with a 45, that will pass the skull, the dry wall, other people, other drywall, the glass of your window, the glass of a car and will end perhaps in the wall of your neighbour. Not to mention you are now blind cause of the flash and deaf cause the bang. Its just too much! 4) Low recoil and lightweight makes it more wife/child friendly. So if you are down defending your home, your wife or child (with proper training) still have a chance to pick the gun from you and defend themselves. 5) The stopping power is, indeed, kinda low in comparison with other calibers. But thats why you have multiple shots. Put 5 .22 shots in a chest or skull and try to see if the dude dont drop down like a rock. I agree that there are many best options for home defense. But americans need to understand that only americans in the entire world have access to guns like it is candy. The rest of the world have many restrictions, bureaucracy and taxes to deal with. Sometimes the only thing a home owner can afford is a 22. And that is better than nothing.
Rcf141@reddit
I carry a 22 it’s light and convenient. The 22LR cartridge despite what many say has excellent stopping power.
Coeruleus_@reddit
400 yards lol ok dude
mjmjr1312@reddit
Honestly this part isn’t untrue. Even CCI SV is still traveling at 646fps according to my ballistics app. Certainly enough to be lethal depending on where someone gets hit. Don’t take this as defending 22 as a defensive cartridge, that is incredibly stupid. But I think it certainly poses a reasonable risk of being lethal at 400yds.
Now hitting something at 400 with CCI SV is a different discussion with 380” (about 80 MOA) of drop and the tendency for even light wind to move your POI be feet not just inches.
Me and my kids will shoot my CZ457 out to 300 yards at steel and it is certainly capable of consistent hits on an IPSC target at that distance on calmer days. But I run out of elevation much beyond 300 and shooting at 400 requires me to max out my elevation and then hold over. I have hit steel at 400 but it’s honestly just luck with a (well below) 50% success rate even on calm days. I bet a more skilled shooter than myself could hit a stationary 400yd target pretty consistently after a shot or two to dial in windage.
BTW if you want to teach a kid (or adult) how to dial elevation and deal with wind a suppressed 22 bolt gun is an amazing tool.
unresolved-madness@reddit
Really it all comes down to shot placement versus impact energy, and which one you think is more important.
thenichm@reddit
I've worked 3 deaths that resulted from .22 rounds finding the right spot. I've worked a dozenish .22 injuries that were non-life threatening. Shot placement is king with small bullets.
That said, a gummy bear traveling at 1200fps will hurt like hell, so it's all relative to circumstance.
PrestigiousOne8281@reddit
Anything moving fast enough will kill you. The human body isn’t exactly robust.
Typical_Yellow5002@reddit
We still use. .22 at work to drop beef and hogs for slaughter. 1 shot. A .22 would absolutely kill a person lmao wtf.
willgreenier@reddit
Sometimes I carry a 22 because of how small and lightweight it is. But when I think i might need a gun, I definitely go for something bigger.
Myte342@reddit
It's the same thing as people believing that tazers aren't dangerous because they mistakenly believe them to be Non-Lethal (Less THAN lethal) when in fact they are Less-Lethal. They still are lethal, just less so than a firearm.
.22LR is less-lethal than 9mm et all. But people hear that and interpret that as less THAN lethal in error.
Correct-Award8182@reddit
Anything less than 50BMG is for sissies.
theother_mlk@reddit
It's not about lethality, it's about reliability and consistency. Studies show it is one of the least effective calibers out of the calibers tested. I certainly don't want to be shot by a .22 but I also don't want to depend on it to save my life if I have better options.
Own_Honey_5432@reddit (OP)
understandable i do tend to notice it jams way more than any other caliber i own currently.
Ballbag94@reddit
That could also be down to the ammo
I find that some ammo causes my 10/22 to jam and some never jams at all
divok1701@reddit
Yes, all 22s are very ammo dependent in regard to reliability.
I've tested many, and it's crazy how there's no manufacturing specs for 22 ammo. Buy 8 brands and line them up and check it out.
Everyone will have different nose shapes, lengths, and case lengths.
This is why feed and jam issues with 22s are so prevalent. I've found certain ammo works flawlessly in certain guns.
The Federal Champion 36gr cphp is perfect in my TX22, but my Henry Classic it jams every few rounds. However, the Aguila Super Extra 40gr cprn works fine in it, but in the TX22, it jams constantly.
Some brands primers suck, and some are just as reliable as 9mm. I've shot over 5k of Federal Champion 36gr cphp and have had just 2 bad primers.
I've shot about 1k of 9mm CCI Blazer and had 1 bad primer so far. So anyone who thinks centerfire doesn't fail, and this is just a rimfire issue, is a fool.
I can't wait to shoot another 4k of the 9mm to see how many more primer failures there are... the results might be less reliable than my 22!
Kinetic_Strike@reddit
Ammo is definitely variable, from brand to brand and batch to batch. For .22lr, we just have a Henry lever action, and the results are something like this:
CCI ammo: check
Federal CPHP: check
Winchester: fart sounds
My dad's 40+ year old CCI ammo: check
SteveHamlin1@reddit
"there's no manufacturing specs for .22 ammo"
Yes there is: https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Z299-1_ANSI-SAAMI_Rimfire.pdf
divok1701@reddit
Not for shape or size of nose or case length... just overall length and diameter. Two different manufacturers, even for the same bullet grain and nose type, can be different in these areas
For pressure, overall length, and diameter, yes.
Your link only references pressure specs btw.
SteveHamlin1@reddit
"Not for shape or size of nose"
Neither does SAAMI specs for 9mm Luger, .38 Spc, .45 Auto, .223 Rem, .308 Win.
"Your link only references pressure specs btw."
The link (pages 21-22 of 89 of the PDF; pages 14-15 printed on the bottom of each page) specifies OAL, case length, case diameter, max bullet set, rim diameter, rim thickness, rim protrusion, and other specs.
Coeruleus_@reddit
No shit I’d rather have a knife
wildraft1@reddit
What kind of garbage do you shoot?
Coeruleus_@reddit
22 is for brokies
BandedLutz@reddit
Ah shoot, I guess my Volquartsen Scorpion makes be a brokie.
:(
Coeruleus_@reddit
No I have a volquartsen it’s awesome I guarantee you don’t
BandedLutz@reddit
I agree!
Oh?
lethalmuffin877@reddit
This mf is baiting, I’d bet folding money he had to google what a volq is
walmarttshirt@reddit
You sound like you listen to Andrew Tate and go range shooting with boxes of store bought hollow points taped to the boxes.
Just to let everyone know how much money you have.
PlayingDoomOnAGPS@reddit
To be fair, I bet he does suck dick on command.
Nathan_Robak@reddit
L Ragebait
greet_the_sun@reddit
Yup rimfire will never be as reliable as centerfire.
Drake_Acheron@reddit
I remember that study I believe it’s the least effective because they’re rimfire cartridges and they jam more often.
But fire arms like the effing 502 tactical or extremely reliable and give you greater capacity, which will put it ahead of a lot of firearms when it comes to reliability and consistency
MacArthursinthemist@reddit
Just get shot a lot by .22s to build up a tolerance
lethalmuffin877@reddit
Open bolt American 180 has entered the chat
“Did someone say… lots of .22?”
-spartacus-@reddit
Just need to have someone suck the bullets out.
Leafy0@reddit
Did the study’s change? Five out so years ago truth about guns looked at crime statistics and 22lr had one of the highest if not the highest ratio of round fires to deaths of and common caliber.
awsompossum@reddit
22 lr is used in a lot of killings, but I have never seen any evidence which said it held the highest ratio. Please provide a source for the claim.
Leafy0@reddit
I actually found the article. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/ask-foghorn-22l-for-self-defense/
awsompossum@reddit
That article also said 22lr had the third highest share of people shot and not killed. The methodology is also based on a guy saying he looked at every shooting he could find. No further explanation on methodology so the accuracy of these sources can be evaluated, nor looked at for potential sampling bias. There's no way to know if these are defensive gun uses, or the guns uses in homicides. As such, even taking this data at face value, what it implies is that 22lr had the lowest number of shots to kill, because if the initial shots were not well placed, then the person did not end up being killed. WHEN 22lr killed, people did so with few shots, which likely meant they had gotten the drop on someone. If that didn't happen, then their likelihood of success was much lower.
tardytheturtle6@reddit
Mostly because people don't treat them like real firearms but more like a toy
Dart3145@reddit
I'd argue that it's more to do with the fact that .22s are cheap and pretty much everywhere. Even most of the ban states have an exception for .22 caliber firearms.
It's the same reason that Saturday night specials were used in crimes. Cheap guns make more sense if you're going to toss it after a crime.
DumbNTough@reddit
I do however know people who are so incapable of shooting center fire that I would legitimately recommended .22 LR hollow points as a defensive option for them. It's the only thing they can shoot well, so it's better than nothing.
PlayingDoomOnAGPS@reddit
/thread
CyberJest@reddit
...which is not the same thing as saying it's an "ineffective caliber", just that other are more effective.
It's like saying I would get your wife less pregnant-er than you.
tannerite_sandwich@reddit
Better way of rephrasing it is time to death. All .22s can easily cause death just the same they just take longer than a high caliber or faster bullet..
XgUNp44@reddit
I have heard from old heads at gun shows back in the day that a .22 is in some aspects more dangerous than a higher power round.
They could have been talking out their ass but they made it sound in certain circumstances a, for example, BP 9mm has enough power to just go straight through you. But a .22 would hit you and lose enough momentum that it wouldn’t make it out but actually tumble/divert course in side of you and “bounce around”
I am by no means a ballistic expert or even knowledgeable enough outside of the minimum for safety eg knowing what’s beyond my target and ricochet prevention. So I would love to be educated.
Correct-Award8182@reddit
Distance, accuracy, and mass. Regardless of things, if you can hit somebody with lead, it's going to hurt. Generally, it is less accurate over distance, less mass for penetration/damage, and more prone to tumble over distance.
Drake_Acheron@reddit
Mass actually matters a lot less than speed.
When analyzing pistol cartridges, it was found that the most important factors were reliability and consistency.
With consistency being defined by how quickly and effectively the cartridge can put down somebody. It was discovered at the most important factors for consistency were recoil control, and magazine capacity. For which the .22 excelled.
However, lability is where the .22 failed. It was the least reliable of the pistol cartridges test tested, and thus solidified the 9 mm as the best defensive round. This is why police department all across the United States changed to 9 mm.
However, this study was done without testing the 5.7 round. It turns out the 5.7 round can move fast enough to inflict hydrostatic shock. Meaning that it is noticeably more likely to stop a threat in other pistol cartridges. 7.5 notwithstanding.
Broke_Bak_Jak@reddit
I suspect it’s not so much that people don’t think it’s capable of killing someone. More that they recognize it lacks the stopping power to be an effective self defense round.
Of course that’s just based on my experience talking to people, there no doubt are more than a few crayon eaters out there who think it’s not much more dangerous than a BB gun.
Zeired_Scoffa@reddit
Yeah, in a defensive situation, I'm not hoping for a perfect shot. I'm hoping to put him down. And I've heard stories of .22LR doing basically nothing with bad shot placement.
Drake_Acheron@reddit
Quickly, every pistol caliber is going to do nothing with bad shot placement.
The problem with .22 isn’t consistent lethality, it’s reliability. Rimfire is not ideal.
TheFluffyEngineer@reddit
Granted, some bb guns shoot at over 800m/s, which is quite capable of killing you.
LaRoux4@reddit
Can you show me a link to a gun that shoots BBs at 2625 feet/second (800 m/s)
kilroy-was-here-2543@reddit
I don’t know about 2625 fps but the Gamo swarm Magnum .177 can hit a blistering 1650 fps. Which is still more than enough to kill you given it hits the right spot
LaRoux4@reddit
100% I’ve seen those before for a while. The person I replied to said 800 m/s (2625 fps) which is about 1000 fps faster than anything I’ve ever seen which I thought was a bit outlandish.
kilroy-was-here-2543@reddit
Yeah, I don’t know about the 800m/s. All I can think is one of those air guns with an external air tank. But those aren’t really BB guns at that point
LaRoux4@reddit
The pneumatic tank air guns are pretty impressive.
Broke_Bak_Jak@reddit
True enough. I always forget that “big boy” BB guns are a thing, I always think of the cheap little daisy I had as a kid lol
Puzzleheaded_Fix3135@reddit
Maybe a pellet gun. Some of those shoot at the same speed.
cocuke@reddit
Read a news story back in the day, kids playing around with a pellet gun and one is killed. I read a name that was familiar to me and it happened at her house. I talked to her about what happened and the kid did get shot with a pellet gun in the chest that was close enough to have the speed and penetration to reach his heart. It was a really bad event that was very hard to believe and a statistically close to impossible but the kid still lost. She didn't say if they were shooting intentionally towards each other or if it was accidentally done.
CokeBoiii@reddit
Same goes for less lethal beanbag shotguns. I was originally going to buy one as a home defense weapon. But I heard beanbags can kill you just like it killed someone a officer shot and hit his chest cavity, dude died on the spot. So I decided not to buy one cause if I do manage to eliminate a intruder with a beanbag the courts will see it as if the beanbag is a actual gun so it really makes no difference.
I tried my best to prevent someone from dying if that scenario ever were to happen to me but sadly that's how the courts work. At this point you just have to pray the intruder surrenders or runs away at the very least.
Hoplophilia@reddit
Straw man.
The consensus is that it won't reliably stop a threat fast enough for defensive purposes. Does me np good if the assailant gets gangrene five days after he lunged through six rounds to slit my throat. Also .22LR ammo is infamous for having misfires.
Drake_Acheron@reddit
Your last sentence is the real reason why 22 LR is a poor defensive round.
There are many studies out there that show that the difference in pistol caliber is largely irrelevant when it comes to “stopping power.”
Analysis on the most effective defensive round generally show that magazine capacity and recoil control are the greatest factor when it comes to reliability and consistency with a defensive round. The rimfire nature of the .22LR is what knocked the .22 out of the running for the best defensive cartridge.
Firefox_Alpha2@reddit
How many people that are likely to come after you won’t piss themselves when either seeing the gun or for sure after being shot!
Unless your a gangbamger or live in the worst areas, highly unlikely
Diligent-Parfait-236@reddit
So why carry a real gun at all then?
Firefox_Alpha2@reddit
Maybe I worded it poorly. I am all for carrying a .22LR
StressfulRiceball@reddit
In this day and age, why carry a .22 when even a .380 is almost objectively better?
Firefox_Alpha2@reddit
Quieter if you have to use it?
bafben10@reddit
I'd rather be temporarily loud than forever quiet
Firefox_Alpha2@reddit
So you’d prefer long term, possibly permanent ringing at a minimum?
HollowPandemic@reddit
So you're gonna throw on your hear pro before taking care of a threat?
Firefox_Alpha2@reddit
I would rather have a 22LR without hearing protection than something larger with no ear protection as less likely to cause problems, at least for me
CokeBoiii@reddit
Dude one or two gunshots without ear protection is not going to cause long term damage.
gokartninja@reddit
I would rather have some hearing damage and be alive
greyhunter37@reddit
7 ish rounds of any caliber without ear pro won't cause any measurable difference. We are around loud snaps (of the same decibels) as gun shots all the time without becoming deaf. The problem is in a repeated scenario.
If you are getting involved in repeated gun fights, that is your problem, not the noise.
Own_Honey_5432@reddit (OP)
yeah but they dont understand that they dont have as much field time.
bafben10@reddit
What do you mean? Your comment isn't clear
Own_Honey_5432@reddit (OP)
i don’t believe a lot of these people have had enough time on the range or courses. To understand that guns will burst the shit out of your eardrums. Even multiple .22 rounds ive shot without ear protection made mine ring for days after.
bafben10@reddit
Gotcha. I can't say I've had the same experience. I used to sit on the couch and shoot .22 out the sliding door across the open area behind our house without it bothering me (my hearing has been tested for work since then and it's fine), but I'd still rather have a 9mm at least for self defense. Using it without earpro will hurt, but it's more than worth it and probably is not going to cause any permanent damage to do only once.
disturbed286@reddit
Unsuppressed .22 isn't hearing safe either.
556_FMJs@reddit
I’ve shot .22 indoors with no sort of protection. It’ll still hurt your ears like a motherfucker.
bafben10@reddit
Yes, I'd prefer long term ringing over my own death. Firearms are to be used in situations where deadly force is necessary. I'm not trusting a 22lr to be particularly deadly, even if it is quieter. It being quiet isn't worth it.
Firefox_Alpha2@reddit
Ahh, fair enough! :)
Personal preference, I understand
Zeired_Scoffa@reddit
Yeah, if I'm in a situation where I pulling the trigger, I want the whole damn neighborhood to know something is going down.
the_real_JFK_killer@reddit
Better than nothing, but there are much better options.
Unless you live somewhere with weird laws
Hoplophilia@reddit
Lol. Perfect retort.
Attacker732@reddit
Violent tweakers exist my guy.
igotbanneddd@reddit
In my area, there is a 70% chance they will run off after you fire a shot; a 10% chance they pull out pepper spray; a 10% chance they pull out a bat; and a 10% chance they pull out their own gun.
smokeyser@reddit
No box cutters? I'm calling bullshit.
igotbanneddd@reddit
Probably a machete or gas station knife if they have one
Glumshelf69@reddit
Why would you risk it. Also, you're forgetting that drugs exist, and can make already stupid people do some truly brainless stuff
SunkEmuFlock@reddit
I don't know where it was, possibly LA, but there was a shooting this year with 22LR and the aftermath photos were bloody as shit. One guy had his cheek split open and hanging. Bullets are bullets. Getting shot sucks regardless of caliber.
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
This article's TL;DR is that most threats are stopped in 1-2 rounds regardless of caliber used. I wouldn't carry rimfire strictly due to the higher possibility of malfunction, but it's not like you can't stop a threat with it.
Hoplophilia@reddit
The metric isn't whether or not it sucks. It's whether I can more reliably stop the threat quicker. On the "better than nothing" list, .22lr is basically at the bottom.
USMC_Tbone@reddit
I think the only thing lower than .22 lr would be .25acp. Its pretty anemic despite being a little bigger. Basically it has velocity of a .46 acp (around 800'ish fps) but with a bullet thats about 1/5 the mass. Also hard to find any ammo to practice with. A .22 lr may have a smaller bullet but at least its gots some extra velocity to it.
twangdinger@reddit
Who is doing murders with 22LR at 400 yards, what the fuck are we even talking about here?
Just-Buy-A-Home@reddit
What are you talking about lmao, that’s just showing the velocity
twangdinger@reddit
What else do you suggest OP may be referencing in this context? This post is nonsense
Just-Buy-A-Home@reddit
Firstly, that’s obviously a screenshot from the stupid AI overview thing on Google and not something they wrote. So don’t get me wrong there.
Secondly, the retention of velocity over range is a very common metric on the power of a cartridge. It’s not meant to be taken as a literal situation, that’s just dumb; and since you don’t understand this simple concept of equivalence in human conversation, your key words are “even after”.
twangdinger@reddit
Yeah dawg
My point is that referencing the velocity of a 40 grain projectile at inneffective range, in the context of said projectile's lethality, then connecting this to ego seems to be illogical
Maybe
Chew on it for a minute and let me know what you come up with
Underwater_Karma@reddit
nobody said murder. weird that you did.
twangdinger@reddit
In exactly what other context would lethality of 22lr at 400 yds be relevant ? Self defense? Are you hunting elk on a mountainside? This is all nonsense
One-Country8514@reddit
Wasn't it proven in the past 22lr could kill a deer if shot in the right spot.
I could be misremembering it's been years since I heard this
secretSquirrel6669@reddit
Rule of thumb I was taught was don’t trust your life to a rimfire cartridge unless that’s all you got
SweetDaddyGlasses@reddit
Cuz it goes in the eyeball and bounces around in the brain , this killing anything in its path
Meenjataka02@reddit
Look up fbi homicide reports in the US, .22 is the most used caliber
Underwater_Karma@reddit
that's not correct. 9mm is by far the most common homicide caliber, .22lr comes in way behind, less than 10% of them.
Meenjataka02@reddit
Oh, someone told me that years ago and I’ve been parroting it ever since lol
GlassCityUrbex419@reddit
My friend always talks crap about my .22s, I always remind him that:
He always chickens out of volunteering to be shot by “a .22 that won’t do anything to an attacker”
I had my .22WM rough rider on me while someone tried to carjack me; and guess what? The bastard didn’t get my car.
Phantex_Cerberus@reddit
.22 will hurt but if you’re up against a drugged up lunatic who’s barely aware of where he is, I’d rather have something that can stop, and stop reliably.
WAKEL1@reddit
I’ve seen .22 rounds kill people with a single shot to the stomach.
I also saw someone get shot with a .22 round and when EMS took their jeans off, the bullet fell out.
Like others have said, they’re just not reliable.
mikey821@reddit
It’s not that they’re incapable of killing someone but shot placement is critical and dense bone is more likely to deflect the bullet. It’s a less than ideal round for self defense.
Underwater_Karma@reddit
I've never in my life heard someone say .22lr is incapable of killing a person.
who have you been talking to?
Fine_Eagle_4141@reddit
Well, the late Paul Harrell has a number of outstanding videos where he tests different calibers on the meat target. The meat target is built from pork ribs, grape fruits, and clothing to simulate his POIs impacting a carbon based life form.
I wouldn’t say the 22 is not capable of killing someone, but it lacks the penetration power that larger calibers have. And what’s even more critical is the 22 has more reliability issues than a center fire caliber.
Everyone has an opinion. I would not rely on a 22 as a primary weapon for anything. It’s not my cup of tea. I prefer 9mm for my handguns and my PCCs, 556 for my ARs, 762 for my bolt actions, and I do have one 380, LCP Max, but I hate that damn thing becasue it’s so hard to shoot.
Always do you and have fun with it. My buddy has a 22 AR, I thinks it’s a M&P, and it’s really neat and fun to plink around with. I have thought about getting a 10/22 again, or maybe that 22 MP5 look alike, but then I always end up saving for something else…lol.
ArceusTwoFour_Zero@reddit
22LR is Schrodinger's cartridge. It's both simultaneously extremely powerful and will bounce around on the insides killing someone instantly, at the same time it is worthless and won't harm anyone.
Will 22LR stop an aggressive attacker? It definitely can. Does 22LR possess less reliability compared to centerfire cartridges? Yes. Is it the bottom of the barrel in terms of power/energy? Also yes.
ThePenultimateNinja@reddit
We don't. We believe that .22 is not powerful enough to reliably stop an assailant before they can hurt us.
Space__Whiskey@reddit
Never mention .22LR in a self defense thread on reddit, unless you are licensed dumpster fire pyrotechnician.
Typical_Network8249@reddit
My Grandpa (State Trooper in Wisconsin) was actually killed by someone with a .22. Now granted, the guy shot him a bunch of times, and it was more than likely a slow death, but still.
Next_Quiet2421@reddit
My counter argument to someone saying that a round isn't enough for people is to ask them if they'd let someone shoot them with one, usually they 180° into some flavor of "hell no are you crazy"
Walleyevision@reddit
Had a kid in my grade school that was out with his older brother hunting squirrels. Both had basic, cheap, bolt-action 22LR rifles. He shot at one on the side of a tree but missed it and didn’t realize his brother was just downhill from his location and the bullet went straight into his brothers eye. It didn’t kill him instantly, but he did die a week or so later.
22’s have forever been associated with “plinking” but they are not toys. I’ve read enough true-crime stories to know that they were also often used for close-up assassinations by hitmen.
BladeDoc@reddit
Here we go again. Look the best study on all of this was the FBI white paper on handgun ballistics (warning .pdf)
There is no such thing as stopping power.
People "stop" when they get shot mostly because they don't want to keep getting shot and/or they feel that they are "supposed to" this is proven by the very many individuals that have been shot, falling down, realize they weren't dead, gotten up and kept fighting.
The only way to incapacitate someone who wants to keep fighting is to turn off the central nervous system or its communication with the body. There are only three ways to do this: 1. shoot the brain. 2. Shoot the spinal cord high enough to paralyze the person. 3. Stop the blood flow to the brain by putting a hole in the heart or the major blood vessels. One and two are instant number three depend depends on how fast they are bleeding.
The only major difference between all of the calibers is how far the bullet can penetrate through human tissue and what size hole it makes in things at full expansion. The FBI has determined that in order to reliably be able to achieve any of the goals noted in number three a bullet has to be able to penetrate 12 inches in calibrated ballistic gel through two layers of denim.
That's it. Every other part of this discussion is talking about trade-offs. Bigger holes are generally better, but bigger holes are made by bigger bullets which usually means less capacity and more recoil. Can a 22 caliber bullet kill somebody? Sure it can but it makes a smaller hole and it's less likely to penetrate into something vital.
Rifle ballistics are somewhat different and not the subject of this comment or the FBI white paper.
knxdude1@reddit
Back in the 80’s my dad responded to a shooting (rare at the time) where a guy was shot near the navel with a .22. It hit his spine and bounced off and went into either his lungs or heart and he died almost immediately. Freak shot and I wouldn’t advocate using a .22 unless that’s all you have.
WeThePeopleFirearms@reddit
There's a reason the mob loves .22lr. It gets the job done and bounces around so you cant match it to anything.
Also, the deadliest school shooting in America was perpetrated with (2) .22lr pistols (Walther P22's) and a 9mm (Glock). For those of you who don't know which one that was it was >!Virginia Tech!<
Only idiots think .22lr isn't deadly.
accursedvenom@reddit
My 15-22 holds 35 in each mag so pretty sure if I dump it, that person won’t be in the sequel.
-spartacus-@reddit
A low-recoil 22 with a big mag and FRT can carve a hole in a ballistic dummy, so I assume it could do it to a body cavity.
fordag@reddit
Who told you that .22 Long Rifle isn't lethal?
shaft196908@reddit
A 22lr at 400 yards - the drop has to be something like 20 feet.
JannyBroomer@reddit
I seriously think fuddlore has caused it.
So many morons say "22lr will penetrate the skull but bounces around inside and scrambles your brains, that's why it's the best round for assassins" yada yada and it's so fuckin dumb that people are like "this guy is a moron, and 22lr probably won't even kill anything!"
spicyfartsquirrel@reddit
For the same reason people think shotguns will just "pepper" someone but not do much else. Ignorance of firearms is rampant
Secretninja35@reddit
It's literally the 100% bounce around death round, not sure what you're talking about.
Angry_Gen-X@reddit
Because most humans are inherently stupid. You poke enough holes in something all the goo going to escape.
Trainmaster111@reddit
For the same reason a newborn puppy is incapable of killing someone.
Its not so much that it can't, it's more about there's much better alternatives
A_Queer_Owl@reddit
wait, how is a newborn puppy gonna kill someone? they don't have teeth, are blind, and the extent of their ability to move is wiggling and maybe rolling over if they're lucky.
Trainmaster111@reddit
You just completely missed the point.
It was a mostly sarcastic way to say that 22lr can kill someone, but it is unlikely to do so over say 9mm.
In this instance a puppy would be 22lr and 9mm would be a cobra if you will.
A_Queer_Owl@reddit
I get the sarcasm, but your turn of phrase falls apart because there is no conceivable way for a puppy to kill someone, whilst there is for .22LR. it'd make more sense and be less confusing to use something like a house cat. a house cat is extremely unlikely to kill someone, but if it gets clever enough around a flight of stairs......
antariusz@reddit
studies show headshots with 50bmg are the most effective way to stop a rampaging human. That's why I never concealed carry less than .50
_BaldyLocks_@reddit
I laughed while ramming the .80 ball down the barrel of my musket.
manInTheWoods@reddit
Tally Ho!
antariusz@reddit
Clearly the only constitutionally accepted round.
Gunner4201@reddit
The caliber does not matter, it's all about shot placement.
Killermondoduderawks@reddit
The only difference between getting killed with a 22 or a 44 Magnum is the dramatical enhancement of the wound channel
NoTie2370@reddit
I think its more about total damage right? Like no one wants to be hit by a .22. Shit I don't want to be hit by a pellet gun.
But an aggressor being hit in a non lethal area by a .22 will be far more capable of continuing to attack than one hit in the same spot by better caliber rounds.
retardsmart@reddit
The inarticulate being quoted by the inarticulate.
Diablo_Saint@reddit
I had a classmate who was murdered by robbers in 2009. They murdered him with a .22LR revolver point bank right in the heart. He didn't die right away from his injuries. He managed to drive away for a few minutes and crash. The homeowner who found him found him struggling to breathe. He bled out moments later. Chicago Officer Ella French was murdered by Emonte Morgan, who used a Glock .22 chambered in .22LR back in 2021. She was shot in the head, and her partner, Officer Carlos Yanez, was criticially wounded and lost an eye. .22LR is indeed deadly to humans like any other bullet, but fatality depends upon shot placement. If it's in the head or chest at close range, more likely than not, it will prove fatal. An arm or leg shot that does not hit a vital like the femoral artery in the leg? An adult would most likely survive if treated right away. A small child, less likely so.
Jackdunc@reddit
If you have a .22 and the other guy has a 45 he will likely get more shots off after you hit each other initially at point blank range.
Firefox_Alpha2@reddit
Something no one really thinks about is this, if you have to use a gun to defend yourself, it is extremely unlikely to have ear pro in.
Thus, while a 45ACP has a lot more stopping power, hope you’ll be happy spending the rest of your life as a deaf or with debilitating ringing.
Even with a suppressor, 45ACP is still going to be damned loud, but I have a better chance at not losing all my heating.
Just-Buy-A-Home@reddit
Jokes on you, when suppressed a lot of .45 ACP will often be subsonic. That means that it is not at all a struggle to have a capable self defense load be hearing safe suppressed.
With that being said, people have fired rifles and shotguns in self defense and walked away with their hearing. You don’t know what you’re talking about, and you’d know that if you’ve ever forgotten earpro at the range
jrhooo@reddit
.22lr is still not “hearing safe” so whats the benefit?
Also, if you are shooting someone, its to save your own life. Hearing risk is an irrelevant level of second place, compared to stopping someone from killing you. Case in point: Knifes and clubs potentially deadly, and are 100% hearing safe, and yet there is a reason you wouldn’t choose them when a gun is an option.
Own_Honey_5432@reddit (OP)
NAH FR nobody thinks of this without ear protection even both of my .22s leave my ears mildly ringing. And if you’ve blown other calibers without ear protection especially in vehicles ykkk how it is. 💯
Firefox_Alpha2@reddit
I have the unenviable benefit of hearing thats bad enough that unsuppressed 22LR doesn’t bother me
SnaggedBullet@reddit
Just get a 5.7 handgun if you are married to 22 caliber
Just-Buy-A-Home@reddit
So expensive, .22 WMR will forever be better if you can afford to train with it
Dad_a_Monk@reddit
I have found a .22lr in the nuts, seems to slow down most attackers...
Unicorn187@reddit
Because the discussion is almost never about killing it's about self defense. And it doesn't matter how lethal the .22 is if it doesn't stop the attacker right fucking now. If my attacker dies in the hospital or on the street in three hours or three days it doesn't help me after he was able to shoot, beat, or stab me to death or cripple me. I really don't understand why people can't understand something so simple.
Some of the examples I've seen have been about how it's killed so many and used for assassinations and mob hits. Not relevant. Not if you get close and put the barrel in the targets ear. Mossad supposedly killing escaped Nazis with .22s isn't relevent either. Not when the supposed technique was to get a few people within 10 yards of the person and each person doing a mag dump to the head and neck. 30 rounds at ten yards to the head and neck damn well better be lethal! But neither of these are self defense against an aware opponent who is fighting back.
The use by hunters to kill treed cougars/mountain lions is also irrelevant. It's not fighting back, and the hunters are getting shots to the head. Same with the deer poachers that many also babble about. You're not sneaking up on the violent murderer to shoot him behind the ear.
stchman@reddit
.22LR can kill, but it needs to be a more targeted shot.
semperfi_ny@reddit
Did a job on my uncle back in '71...a drunk pulled out his rifle and fired randomly. My uncle and his best friend were driving. Uncle got shot in the head & died.
Own_Honey_5432@reddit (OP)
Rip, any caliber to the head is extremely deadly
__nlm__Wiglaf_Spence@reddit
I think .22 is a waste of time, money and resources.
Paulinapeak1@reddit
it’s fun tho
Own_Honey_5432@reddit (OP)
a .22 not a .22lr though.
Dung_Beetle_2LT@reddit
They’ll kill…….eventually.
ItsHisMajesty@reddit
I knew someone who was killed by .22LR. It will get the job done.
I also remember a news story where a felon was hit several times by a cop shooting 9mm. He (the felon) survived unscathed because of his Carhartt jacket.
Shot placement matters…
B1gdaddy987@reddit
I'd choose 38. Special or 9MM
hadtobethetacos@reddit
i literally have never heard anyone, anywhere say a .22lr is incapable* of killing someone.
Zorfax@reddit
A spoon used as a weapon is capable of killing someone.
That doesn't mean it's the weapon you want to bring with you to the gunfight.
Strong-Platform786@reddit
I don't believe most think it can, more along the lines of unlikely, or slowly.
Own_Honey_5432@reddit (OP)
worst part about it slowly bouncing around inside you. 😟
Happily-Non-Partisan@reddit
Because they are tiny.
But the kind of people who believe this nonsense seem to also believe that magicians catch bullets in their teeth by simply shooting a real bullet with a smaller powder load, owing to the fact that most people who take physics in high school brain dump that crap as soon as they graduate.
-E-Cross@reddit
Incapable is the word you seek sir.
DreamingOfCorndogs@reddit
They should talk to Bobby Kennedy…