Question to Turkish people: How does the Turkish society deal with the fact that Turks appeared in the area of modern Turkey relatively late in human history?
Posted by Thalassophoneus@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 175 comments
No offense intended. Greeks didn't always exist in Greece either, and we do learn at school about the Minoan civilization even though it's not certain if it was even Indo-European. We may even be spoken about Sesklo and Dimini without being clearly told that these are pre-Indo-European settlements.
So that had me wondering, Turks arrived in Asia Minor only a few centuries ago and they are genetically a mixture of Turkic peoples and peoples that already existed in Asia Minor.
Does this inspire a narrative of direct connection with the already existing civilizations? How are Turkish children taught about the early Neolithic settlements, Hittites, Greeks and Byzantium? Were Greeks and Byzantium only an "intermission" that shouldn't have been there? Is there some kind of Turkic patriotism regarding Turkey's relationship with Central Asia?
mertkksl@reddit
Our curriculum has a very revisionist attitude towards the pre-Seljuk history of Anatolia that utilizes miscategorization and omittence in order to strengthen the Turkish claims on the land.
The early Anatolian civilizations are touched upon as native kingdoms that have invented ground-breaking stuff like coinage etc. There is however no mention of them being "Greek" or "Helene" as these two terms never really appear in our books. The details surrounding the character of pre-Greek Anatolian civilizations are vague and their inclusion in the Greek world after Alexander the Great's conquests is entirely omitted. The main goal is to create a break between native Anatolians and Greeks as to weaken Greek claims of being native to Anatolia. This viewpoint is further highlighted in books sold in national museums where the "Greek theory" is deemed as a Western falsification that solely serves to undermine Turkish presence in the region(ie. Turkophobia).
Byzantium is not really touched upon either and this time there is another attempt to create a divide between Ancient Greeks and Byzantines who are referred to as Yunan and Rum respectively as if these terms denote compeletely different peoples with different origins. This intentional, deceitful recategorization extends to linguistics also and we are confronted with Yunanca(Greek proper) and Rumca(Roman language as if to imply it was not Greek).
The main goal is to confuse the student with all the different terms and gaps so they can never really establish a continuous link between Native Anatolians, Ancient Greeks and Eastern Romans(Byzantines). This is important in deferring modern Greek claims on Anatolian land and heritage. Otherwise, it becomes harder to justify the presence of Turkey as a state that has been sterilized of its Christian elements.
NoNeedForNaming@reddit
Correct. The last paragraph is the bulls eye.
It doesn't matter how many hours are spent on a topic, the end result is clear. In general, and I'm talking more than 90% of Turks, have no real knowledge on the history of Turkey or the Turkish nation.
This is where ethnonationalism and racism thrives and this is why you have Turks going to war saying yogurt was invented by Turks, why Balkan states should pay Turkey for kicking out the Ottomans... Utterly uneducated people not only on history, but also on on ethics, morals...
Talking about the history of the Ottomans, how they conquer these lands, how people fought back, how cruel Ottomans were... These are all known historical facts. But even talking about these thing will brand you as anti-turkish and racist.
I sometimes joke Turks are behaving like they are renters in Anatolia. They occupied by sword and the only reason why they are not kicked out is because they have a big sword. It's a joke! Reality is, Turks are here, they will stay here, and they are a blend of what was happening in Anatolia for several millennia. Same as French, Germans, Americans... The only obstacle here is education.
Wild-Chipmunk-3724@reddit
I see a lot of misinformation from the Balkans about the Ottomans as well. For example, people claim that Jizya was always more than what the Muslims paid. In reality, it varied based on the region and period. I'm not saying the Ottomans were great, but their cruelty is exaggerated in the Balkans.
The ethnonationalism you speak of is also a problem in many Balkan countries. There will always be a Greek person typing constantinople under an Istanbul cat video, or a guy posting the 100th big Greece map.
NoNeedForNaming@reddit
This is just a stupid view. The moment people saw rebegins is going to work, they rebelled and wone.
While you are searching about your self identity, please keep in mind you are not welcomed north of Edirne.
One-Flan-8640@reddit
I've had plenty of European friends host me north of Edirne while we discussed the things our cultures have in common. More often than not I get told about a love of Turkish food and TV dramas :)
NoNeedForNaming@reddit
I somehow doubt this because there are not many things TR and countries north of Edirne have culturally in common.
Sure, you will be treated properly like any anyone visiting, but the moment you start with Ottoman BS and how beautiful the Ottoman occupation of the Balkan was, you will be asked to leave.
See, there is no inherent hate towards Turks. People just don't like stupidity.
Same would happen if a German visited France, Poland, Czeck... and started BSing about the glory of the Reich.
One-Flan-8640@reddit
Feel free to doubt, or alternatively watch some travel bloggers on YouTube and see for yourself.
"I somehow doubt this because there are not many things TR and countries north of Edirne have culturally in common."
Incorrect. When I travelled I found that we have many dishes, hospitality customs, family-based values, and dancing traditions in common. This is one of the main reasons Turkish TV shows are especially popular in the Balkans - they feel relatable. It's a pity you're too caught up in a stone-age era tribal mindset to admit to yourself that we're really not that different to one another.
"Sure, you will be treated properly like any anyone visiting, but the moment you start with Ottoman BS and how beautiful the Ottoman occupation of the Balkan was, you will be asked to leave."
Well, I spoke of how beautiful the Ottoman architecture and cuisine was and wasn't kicked out 🤷🏽 maybe you're not authorised to self-appoint as the spokesperson for all Balkaners.
Although I have to acknowledge that many aspects of Ottoman rule was brutal. The devşirme system was harsh IMO (to tear children away from their families), but more importantly the slave trade they engaged and their use of irregular militias like the başıbozuks are pretty confronting. I find it harrowing to think about all the civilians who suffered because of these practices. I don't think it's healthy to romanticise any empire and I find most people that do to be chauvinistic.
NoNeedForNaming@reddit
I know you are intentionally playing stupid, but no problem. You are not the first nor the last person to do this on internet.
Looks like you are one of those civilised Turks. Instead of talking to me, talk to you brother that romanticise Ottomans. And they are romanticise not because of cousin, but because of imperial reign, slavery, stealing children... They are glorifying a monster. Neo-Nazis level. And when I say they are not welcome north of Edirne, these are the folks not welcomed. You, a civilised Turk, you are always welcome to visit.
BTW, in Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Republic of Srpska... majority of Balkan, no one watches TR shows. They are only popular in Muslim predominant areas/countries. Other areas have nothing in common with TR culture. Sure, we make barbecue, great guests, coffee, family... but so does the majority of the world. How I know this? I'm from these lands.
Open a topic in r/AskBalkans about how people of the Balkans view Ottomans and Ottoman occupation of their lands. Spice it up with nationalistic BS how Ottomans were gret occupiers and wait for the results. You will see my words represent the majority.
One-Flan-8640@reddit
How exactly am I "playing stupid"? That's a curiously uncivil thing to say to someone whom you just labelled "one of the civilised ones."
"Instead of talking to me, talk to you brother that romanticise Ottomans."
I point out their ignorance to them just as I'm pointing out your ignorance to you. Bigotry has no nationality, as you can see :)
"BTW, in Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Republic of Srpska... majority of Balkan, no one watches TR shows. "
Incorrect yet again. Rather than tell you about my own experiences in the very region you talk about, I'll give you a link to online study so you can see for yourself: https://www.sciencenorway.no/entertainment-researchers-zone-scandinavia/turkish-tv-dramas-have-taken-an-unexpected-global-journey/2475935#:~:text=In%202009%2C%20Turkish%20dramas%20reached,than%20to%20Anglo%2DAmerican%20content.
Unfortunately, somehow I doubt that you're open-minded enough to admit when you've been proven wrong.
"Open a topic in r/AskBalkans to see ..."
This is an example of your confirmation bias. We both know Reddit is populated primarily by issue-motivated nationalists. Average citizens in most countries don't care for these outdated nationalistic rivalries; it's just fringe ethno-nationalists like yourself who get bent around the wheels about such topics - which is hilariously ironic considering that genetically and culturally we're hardly different to each other.
Anyway, I have no doubt you're going to dig your heels in further and I can see we're never agree on this topic, so I'm going to leave it here. I'm glad you were decent enough to implicitly acknowledge that all nationalities have good and bad people instead of painting an entire nationality with the one brush, at least. Have a nice life.
NoNeedForNaming@reddit
You’re trying to pretend you’re one of those “civilised Turks,” but your words are the same old BS of Turkish bigots, ultranationalists, and genocide deniers. I explicitly said civilised people are always welcome, but you accused me of bigotry because I stated the obvious fact that genocide deniers, Ottoman nostalgists, and apologists for crimes against children are not welcome. That’s not bigotry. That’s common decency, which you clearly lack.
And while you play the role of the polite, reasonable Turk, you’re lying through your teeth. I’ve never seen you challenge Turks about Turkish or Ottoman crimes. You talk with them about Turkish football, and every now and then you cross swords with anyone who has anything critical to say about Turkey. You’re full of it, and anyone reading your post history can see it.
Here’s an actual expert article on Turkish TV in Slovenia, Serbia, and Croatia and not some random link you found online.
(PDF) Social Interaction Mechanisms of Exported Turkish TV Series: The Case of Croatia
Sure, some people do watch Turkish soap operas. They also watch Latin American, American, and domestic shows. But no sane person claims people watch Latin American shows because there’s a “cultural connection.” That’s the kind of silly fantasy that only exists in the heads of ignorant Turks. TR shows are also popular in the Spanish speaking world. Probably because of their deep historical ties to the Ottoman Empire, right? LOL.
And of course, you dodged the test that would prove how silly and weak your claims really are. You already know how people react when someone like you, an ultranationalist cupcake, starts talking about the “beautiful Ottoman rule,” genocide denial, and all the other mental gymnastics you do.
Real-life mirrors what happens here on Reddit, and it’s not because people are bigots. They just don’t like fringe ultra-nationalists like yourself who get bent around the wheels trying to convince people what’s written in history books and remember in national identity about Ottoman crimes isn’t that horrible.
Either way, good to see you running away. Then again, you have no other choice. The more you talk, the more obvious it becomes that you have no foundation for your claims. Just straw men, cheap sophistry, and the hope that nobody notices. And here again you fail miserably, because if we actually were as “similar” as you claim, there would be no need for your nationalistic BS. As always, the truth would suffice.
One-Flan-8640@reddit
Okay champ 👍🏽
NoNeedForNaming@reddit
Always delighted putting ultranationalist 🦃 cupcakes in their place. 👍
One-Flan-8640@reddit
Hahaha you keep telling yourself that, mate.
NoNeedForNaming@reddit
No need to tell anything.
Everyone can see how you escaped and how I'm gloating at your tactical retreat. 😘
6yprp@reddit
Lol incorrect comment, most Christian Balkan ppl I know their mom, auntie, sisters watch Turkish drama. Has nothing to do with religious affiliation. They all have crushes on Turkish actors
NoNeedForNaming@reddit
LOL, you should present your anecdotal argument to the people who did the research and I'm sure the first thing tomorrow morning, they will update the charts in the article according to your statistical observations.
(PDF) Social Interaction Mechanisms of Exported Turkish TV Series: The Case of Croatia
scanfash@reddit
Regardless of the amount it was still a discriminatory practice, and even though Muslims like to excuse it with amounts paid and other “benefits” like not serving in military the far worse sides are never brought up. Along with jizya a Christian testimony in court was considered half that of a Muslim literally making us half human compared to a Muslim male. Secondly carried with it the forbidding of carrying arms leading to extreme exposure to sectarian violence in times of unrest, especially since these restrictions did not carry on to Muslims.
NoNeedForNaming@reddit
What YOU "see" is not important. You are are just a dolmuş driver. You a are a tool or a thing like soap.
Wild-Chipmunk-3724@reddit
According to your comment history, you're in your 40s. Act your age, fool.
Future_Adagio2052@reddit
Isn't this true for practically every group of people tho?
AcanthocephalaSea410@reddit
This is an article full of nonsense. You just copied and pasted what the Greeks were taught in schools here. I'm curious: did you vote for Golden Dawn in the last election?
Kalypso_95@reddit
Please explain to us where's the lie in his comment before accusing him
AcanthocephalaSea410@reddit
He doesn't know his textbooks. He tries to portray Turks as a community that demonizes others. This isn't taught in schools; Antic Greek skepticism is a minority view among adults.
It presents ancient Greece and Anatolia as a cluster. Western Anatolia is shown as both antic Greek and Anatolian. It shows Eastern Anatolia only as Anatolia. His fanatical Hellenistic view was to declare everyone Greek with Alexander. Alexander, Egypt, Rome, and ancient Greece are mentioned together. Terms like "racial purity" do not exist in textbooks.
mertkksl@reddit
You are being dishonest.
The first unit you linked takes on the period before Alexander's widespread Anatolian conquests and doesn't display a cluster at all. It only shows that the Western Anatolia was included in the Greek world and doesn't really mention them being Greek or anything.
What's even funnier is the second source you confidently dared to link here. The fact that Anatolia was clustered with places like Egypt and Persia where the local population never really became Greek further exemplifies the Turkish government's insistence that Anatolians never became Greek. It only says that Greek and local non-Greek cultures influenced each other which fits in perfectly with the idea that Anatolians were not Greek but were merely influenced by it just like Persians and Egyptians who never really became Greek and continued to mostly speak their native tongues throughout history.
Another weird false invention found in the book is the idea that Hellenic culture was only created when Alexander the Great expanded towards the East. No, Hellenic identity existed before that and wasn't something that arose out of the fusion of Greek and foreign eastern cultures. "Hellenism" is not presented as Greek but something different that was born out of the clash of several different cultures where Greek culture was only one rather "insignificant" component in the mixture. It later goes on to claim that it was this newly forged culture that influenced "Eurasian" civilizations alluding to the inference that Byzantium was not Greek.
The roots of Hellenic identity/Hellenism as a cultural identity goes back to Archaic Greeks. Also, there is absolutely no mention of the Seljuks mixing with the locals resulting in a hybrid culture that consists of both Byzantine Greek and Turkic elements. Turks are presented in isolation and are never mentioned to have mixed with anyone on their historical path to Constantinople.
HarrowOverHEaven@reddit
dostum doğu perinçek ekolü almancı falan mısın dediğinin 1 tanesi bile yok kitaplarda her birkaç yıl mebden 1 tane devlet tarih kitabı indirir incelerim. Kitaplarda hiçbir zaman ırk saflığına vurgu yapılmadı antik yunan anlatıldı ve özellikle batı anadoluya da uzandığı anlatıldı şuan tamamen yeğeninin saçmaladığı şeyleri anlatıyorsun.
Ayrıca yunanları anadolu tarihinden onları bahsetmeyerek silemezsin böyle saçma bir belirtim yok 31 çekerek klimayı tekmeledi demek gibi bir şey. Yunan tarihini anadolu tarihinden sökülmesine neden olan şey anadoluya olan akınların yerel nüfus tarafından karşılanışını işlememesi.
Zrva_V3@reddit
Pretty much all of it. It's half truths more than a bunch of lies. There is no actual effort of deceit, there is some ommitance but that's it.
mertkksl@reddit
Lol you are full of it buddy. I responded to your other comment, let’s see what you will come up with this time.
Just letting you know omittance counts as manipulation/misrepresentation btw. Leaving certain important historical details out changes and manipulates the whole narrative.
AgencyBrave9897@reddit
I made a similar post to this on here on how turks were claiming a heritage that doesn't even apply to most people of turkey. Most Turks I have met are not fucking central asian they are greek anatolian mix and maybe even iranic. Turkish propaganda is literally the reason why Greece and Western Turkey will be unable to unite.
OkPublic2736@reddit
Good portion of your people would genocide entire Turks if they had the power. Your Side is the hater. Not our Side
Iapetus404@reddit
But until today turks made several genocides to million Greek people.
AgencyBrave9897@reddit
We were never the aggressors in the first place. We had a prospering civilization before our lands got raided. Who has Constantinople now? Certainly not the Greeks.
OkPublic2736@reddit
İs
Anatolia was never greek. Your Alexander was occupier in asians land . Your land is modern day greece.in fact agean islands cloose to turkey is asian land as well and should be declonized
Milrich@reddit
Dude, Constantinople was a city founded by Greek settlers from Megara, next to Athens. Smyrna, Trabzon and many other cities along the coast were FOUNDED by us. There was nothing there. Greeks came and built the city. What occupation are you talking about?
Yes, of course there were native Anatolians before. We built cities along the coast and lived with them for millenia.
Show me one city you founded and didn't steal from others.
Future_Adagio2052@reddit
Ankara? the city beforehand wasn't anything major and just a small town before the prime minister funded it as the capital
Smooth-Inspector-391@reddit
Tell me you don't history without telling me you know history.
(Hate to surprise you, but Greeks existed in Anatolia waaaaaaaay before Alexander)
AgencyBrave9897@reddit
Speak proper English.
dcdemirarslan@reddit
Never the aggressors? Someone forgot to open a history book I guess....
Smooth-Inspector-391@reddit
Well you did the same so you are not any better
scanfash@reddit
But only one side did actually genocide the other and it wasn’t the Greeks, so instead of speaking in hypotheticals look at the facts.
WeeklyRain3534@reddit
Unifying Greece and Western Anatolia? Big dreams for such a small country of only 10 million people. Istanbul on a nice Saturday night in July houses probably twice the population of poor Greece. In a unification, it’ll be Turkey that reclaims the lands that it ruled for over 6 centuries.
Wild-Chipmunk-3724@reddit
Many Greeks themselves are Anatolian and not Greek. There are also many Slavs in Northern Greece. When the population exchange happened, over a million Anatolian Christians moved to Greece, and many of these people weren't ethnically Greek.
These genetics arguments are Nazi level stupid, and it makes people in the Balkans look simple.
Iapetus404@reddit
Tragic.
Same logic is based the narrative of North Macedonians about Macedonia and Alexander the great etc.
So when you visit ancient Greek cities of bronze or classic period(Smyrna, Pergamum, Ephesus, Phocaea, Miletus) what teacher or historian guidey say to you?
How the fill this time gap?
Hairy-Thing8183@reddit
Ain't no one gonna read it Bro. 🙏😭
mertkksl@reddit
Summary: Our education system doesn’t believe the Greeks are real🇬🇷🚫
Zrva_V3@reddit
How? This was never focused on or explicitly stated. Turks use Yunan and Rum interchangibly.
mertkksl@reddit
Not really. Anatolian Greeks and Cypriots are almost always referred to as Rum, not "Greek". "Yunan" mainly refers to the Mainland Greeks who are in reality the same people as the Anatolian Greeks but the artificial dual renaming set forth by the Turks aims to prevent this from being realized.
For example, in Turkish history books we always use the term "Fener Rum Patrikhanesi" not "Fener Yunan Patrikhanesi". This is quite weird/incoherent when you consider the fact that Mainlander Greeks who invaded Smyrna in that same period were referred to as "Yunan" despite Phanariots and Greek Mainlanders both belonging to the same ethnic group(Hellenes). The same "Rum" title is enforced on Cypriot Greeks also in effort to render Greece as irrelevant in matters surrounding their rights and political representation.
This is all done in order to debase the claims of Greece being the main political bureaucratic body that represents the general Greek world. The strategic use of the term "Rum" serves to alienate the Mainland Greeks from Cypriot and Anatolian Greeks in an effort to make it seem like Greece has no right to protect or represent their rights and assume custodianship over them.
Zrva_V3@reddit
You're simply making things up. The terms Rum and Yunan are used interchangibly by the Turks in general but Rum mostly refers to Anatolian Greeks and Cypriots because that's how they've always been referred to.
Yunan is mostly used for Greeks of Greece because the Hellenic Republic identified itself with the ancient Greeks more than it did with the Eastern Romans. The divide is not created by the Turkish education system. It was already there.
Ancient Greeks are also referred to as Yunan. The name itself is definitely not an attempt at denying Greek history.
AntiKouk@reddit
I read it, thanks for actually answering a good question with a very good answer
AgencyBrave9897@reddit
Well they are fucking real. What is it with turks larping as mongols when most of them are anatolian farmer
Tryphon_0@reddit
This is a very honest answer
Zrva_V3@reddit
And very inaccurate. Ancient Greeks are in fact taught in Turkish schools. Their history Anatolia is not very in depth but we do learn it. Also everyone knows that Rum (Eastern Romans) are Greeks. In Turkish Rum and Yunan is used interchangibly. There is no intense effort of deceit that brands Greeks as invaders who had it coming or anything like that.
mertkksl@reddit
Rum and Yunan is not used interchangeably, this is just you trying to rescue the pseudo-historical teachings of the Turkish Ministry of Education. Refer to my other answer below one your other comments for a more thorough explanation of my claims.
StamatisTzantopoulos@reddit
Το be fair (and I am saying that as a Greek), ancient Greeks and Eastern Romans are not exactly the same people. It's complicated. Many inhabitants of Anatolia, esp Eastern Anatolia, were Hellenised (culturallly), later Romanised and then Christianised, but originally they were non-Greek indigenous populations. In general not all Byzantines (Romans) were of Greek ethnicity.
mertkksl@reddit
Our curriculum has a very revisionist attitude towards the pre-Seljuk history of Anatolia that utilizes miscategorization and omittence in order to strengthen the Turkish claims on the land.
The early Anatolian civilizations are touched upon as native kingdoms that have invented ground-breaking stuff like coinage etc. There is however no mention of them being "Greek" or "Helene" as these two terms never really appear in our books. The details surrounding the character of pre-Greek Anatolian civilizations are vague and their inclusion in the Greek world after Alexander the Great's conquests is entirely omitted. The main goal is to create a break between native Anatolians and Greeks as to weaken the Greek claims of being native to Anatolia. This viewpoint is further highlighted in books sold in national museums where the "Greek theory" is deemed as a philhellenic Western falsification that seeks to undermine Turkish presence in the region(ie. Turkophobia) and erase the “rich cultural mosaic” Anatolia once was.
Byzantium is not really touched upon either and this time there is another attempt to create a divide between Ancient Greeks and Byzantines who are referred to as Yunan(Ionians?) and Rum(Rhomios/Roman) respectively as if these terms denote completely different peoples with different origins. This intentional, deceitful recategorization extends to linguistics also and we are once again confronted with the terms Yunanca(Greek proper) and Rumca(Roman language as if to imply it was not Greek). The Byzantines are presented as Native Anatolians who simply converted to Christianity overtime with no mention of their prior incorporation(Western Anatolians were literally involved in the creation of Greek identity from the start actually) into the pagan Greek world. There are no links established between the Byzantines and Ancient Greeks.
The main goal is to confuse the student with all the different terms and historical gaps so they can never really establish a continuous link between Native Anatolians, Ancient Greeks and Eastern Romans(Byzantines). This is important in dismissing modern Greek claims on Anatolian land and heritage. Otherwise, it becomes harder to justify the presence of Turkey as a state that has been sterilized of its Christian elements.
Turks are presented as having no links with Native Anatolians, Greeks or Byzantines. The general narrative is that we descend from the Göktürks( Xiongnu in general) and have preserved our racial and cultural purity all the way down to the modern era.
Turbulent_Ice_5099@reddit
Ask the same to the Hungarians and the Americans
Thalassophoneus@reddit (OP)
There's no need to ask Americans. We know how they are dealing with it. They think their country is the oldest in the world and they tell American Natives to go back to their country.
Turbulent_Ice_5099@reddit
And they are right since they rightfully conquered it and have the power and influence to control it
Thalassophoneus@reddit (OP)
No. Having had your land for 250 years doesn't mean you can tell natives to go away nor that you can pretend it's such an old country.
Turbulent_Ice_5099@reddit
I understand your perspective but ı don't think there is such thing as a native people conquer land from each other all the time they don't spawn out of nowhere and none of those tribes in America got the land peacefully how many years does it take for a people to become the "natives" of the land? it's just arbitrary
Thalassophoneus@reddit (OP)
These people did get their land peacefully. There is little evidence of ethnic cleansing or major wars during the classical antiquity of North America.
Turbulent_Ice_5099@reddit
"Warfare was deeply intertwined with cultural beliefs, involving purification rituals and the invocation of spiritual powers. Success in battle was a significant source of personal esteem, leading to various forms of war honors such as scalping in some regions or "counting coup" among Plains tribes, reflecting acts of bravery rather than mere killing. The introduction of European guns and horses transformed these traditional practices, intensifying conflicts and shifting economic motivations, as tribes sought to acquire these new resources. Overall, Native American warfare was not solely about territorial gains but was steeped in cultural, spiritual, and communal significance, reflecting the complexities of indigenous societies."
https://www.ebsco.com/research-starters/military-history-and-science/native-american-warfare
Turbulent_Ice_5099@reddit
Though ı would say the greeks have badass names like Stelios
erionei@reddit
I’m neither Turkish nor Greek but I like to believe the average person wouldn’t need to cope with that. They live there, speak their language, under their country’s name and flag. That usually suffices for most people I’d hope.
kekman_1453@reddit
It does. Reddit focuses on the identity of Turks way too much. In reality, most people don’t these question stuff this much. They have lives instead.
Cerulean_IsFancyBlue@reddit
Yes, but, the place where the lives of different people intersect is often international politics, and that can be strongly affected by nationalism.
As a citizen of the USA, I understand this with immediacy and embarrassment
Only-Dimension-4424@reddit
National narrative is Turks came from Central Asia and conquered Roman Empire etc bla bla ... but in reality many folks intentionally know they have also roots from pre Turkic arrival but since Turkish is upper/roof identity no one bother to conflict national narrative , anyway in history classes yes we learn things about various Anatolian civilizations such as Hittites,Trojans,Lydians etc... but when it comes to Byzantium only few things like about founder Constantine the great and Justinian the great , little bit about Heraclius(this one teach in religion class rather than history) , and then manzikert and ottoman/byzantine wars till fall of Constantinople etc
Kitsooos@reddit
Wtf do you even learn about the Trojans ?? We don't even know what language they spoke.
Quite honestly, we know next to nothing about them.
Kalypso_95@reddit
Maybe he means that they just read the Iliad but taking the Trojans' side? XD
Kitsooos@reddit
That's like watching the 300 and rooting for the Persians. Which I guess the Persians do. But it's still weird.
Only-Dimension-4424@reddit
Westerners watch 300 and root for you🤣
Cerulean_IsFancyBlue@reddit
“I just hope everyone has a good time.”
RedditStrider@reddit
I mean compared to Spartans, Persians were definetly the good guys, assuming you know the actual history.
Only-Dimension-4424@reddit
Yep, Trojans seen as Anatolian warriors who defend their homeland against invaders(Greeks) , and there are famous quote Atatürk after Greco/Turkish war victory " We got revenge of Hector"
Kalypso_95@reddit
Another Turk that read the Greek epic of Iliad and learnt about Hector lol!
Only-Dimension-4424@reddit
Greek epic or not that doesn't matter since Greeks were attackers and Trojans were Anatolian defenders
Kalypso_95@reddit
"We wuz Trojans and shiet"
You were also Invaders to Anatolia, never forget that
Only-Dimension-4424@reddit
We never claim we were Trojans ! We just made empathy with them due to having similar situations and living in same place etc... back then both Trojans and we after WWI invaded by Greeks, and technically we are both invaders and defenders since we have also huge amount Anatolian genes🧬
Iapetus404@reddit
You understand in 1922 was the decadent and falled ottoman empire and every nation trying to liberate they old lands...there was not Turkey with boarders at that time.
Smyrna population was majority Greek people for ex.
from 350.000 population the 200.000 was Greek.
Only-Dimension-4424@reddit
😵💫Greek army marched on up to Ankara(capital) and you are wrong since there was also a government in Ankara since 1920 , so it was an invasion
astral_puff68262@reddit
So do Greeks. Anatolian Greeks have been living in Anatolia before the Turks appeared and were forced out after the population exchange.
Iapetus404@reddit
hahaha
Iapetus404@reddit
omg lmao
AntiKouk@reddit
Hahahaha. Fascinating. This is almost identical to the Roman epic poem Aeneid. Where Rome is supposedly founded by Trojan survivors and justifies the conquest of Greece as a revenge and not a conquest.
Acceptable-Leg-6402@reddit
Wow as a Greek I find this hilarious but also interesting any source?
Only-Dimension-4424@reddit
https://www.troyartdesign.com/canakkale-kent-meydani-heykelleri/?lang=en
Only-Dimension-4424@reddit
Mainly about the famous Trojan war and Trojan horse etc, also they speak a branch of Hittites language etc
Iapetus404@reddit
No,in Iliad rhapsody Homer says many times that Trojans has common gods with Greeks.
The 12 Olympian Gods.
Troy mainly worshipped the god Apollo, who was considered the protector of the city and its inhabitants.
Also the names Paris,Hector and Priam is common Greek names.
Most Historians and Archeologist thing that was alliances Tojans with others like the hitties etc
Only-Dimension-4424@reddit
That's not matter since Anatolians also worship Greek gods etc, Trojans are not Greeks
Kitsooos@reddit
We for sure don't know what language the Trojans spoke.
Maybe it was Hittite, maybe Greek, maybe some other Anatolian language. There was a spectrum of Indo-European languages in the region at the time and many of them were somewhat intelligible to each other (like Greek and Phrygian).
There is a complete lack of translators in the Homeric epics. This may have been an "artistic choice" so to speak or maybe the Greeks and the Trojans actually did not need a translator.
Perhaps the most "intense" take about the Trojan War is that ... it didn't happen.
Yes. There is an increasing amount of professors/scholars that claim that no such war happened. They believe that there happened a series of wars and battles in the region, in the span of a few centuries, but not one singular all out dramatic war specifically in Troy.
The Hittite texts recently found in Hattusa, actually support this.
Golddustofawoman@reddit
That last paragraph is exactly the reason why this is quickly becoming my favorite reddit thread of all time. I've been sitting back looking at Greeks and Turks argue about something that may or may not have even happened 3,500 years ago. It's insightful to say the least.
Volcano_9566@reddit
They just mention about the horse and few things not so much mentioned other than that. There is a picture on book thats all when i was in school.
vincenzopiatti@reddit
What do you mean "deal with the fact"? We're here and we've been here. There isn't a single Turk who is losing sleep over that fact that we don't have ancient history in the lands we live on today.
And no. schools don't talk about Greeks or other civilizations as "intermission". There is little political motives when it comes to ancient history. The political motives in the curriculum are much more prominent for the recent history, in my opinion.
Entire-Let9739@reddit
We do not deal.Most Turks have no basic knowledge of history and it is very bold of you to think that they care about ancient times.
Iapetus404@reddit
So you as a person aren't you defined by what you learned in the past and your experiences or your family?
Every morning when you wake up you made restart to your self and identity?
desertedlamp4@reddit
Nobody cares to put it mildly, some Turks do not even leave their town/neighborhood, they do not go to a museum to see Anatolian and Christian artefacts
astral_puff68262@reddit
To be fair English people were not native to England and no one else asks them this question.
Commercial_Leek6987@reddit
I can’t deal with this fact! I’m going to a therapist asap!
lajoiedeletre@reddit
We are taught about Anatolian civilizations, starting from first human settlements like Çatalhöyük and Çayönü to Hittites, Lydians, Phyrigians, Ionians. I think we embraced Hittites to some extent. There is a food brand called Eti(Hittite) for example and Hittite Sun is the symbol of Ankara and University of Ankara but we don't see any Anatolian civilization as our ancestor or anything. There is also the Museum of Anatolian Civilizations in Ankara and some schools arrange visits there. I went there with my teachers and classmates for example.
I don't remember learning about Byzantine period in Anatolia, every Turk probably heard the famous phrase "With 1071 Battle of Manzikert the gates of Anatolia have been opened to the Turks". It usually starts there, Beylik period, Sultanate of Rum, Mongol Invasion, another Beylik period, Ottomans. (Also older Turkic nations like Huns, Göktürks, Karahanids, Uighurs etc... are taught)
About Greeks i think we don't learn about them until Greek War of Independence, Balkan Wars and Turkish War of Independence. The last one is taught specifically at 8th and 12th grades.
There certainly is an interest about Central Asia in some people, people think we directly descended from Turkic people while in reality we are mixed with people already living in Anatolia.
vivamorales@reddit
Sidenote, what do Turks learn about çatalhöyük? Do your schools teach you about their communistic way of life?
No-Job-3494@reddit
it has become mainstream only like a decade ago and its exact details are still being discovered, so it is included only as a "Did you know?:" part
lajoiedeletre@reddit
It's not that detailed, i don't really know maybe it can depend on history teachers too but the books don't contain much knowledge about how their communal lifes were like. I remember learning about its location, the estimated time period and how they built their houses etc.
AppointmentWeird6797@reddit
Its interesting that you dont learn about the greeks. After all they did populate or colonize western anatolia for thousands of years and after alexander they even reached eastern anatolia. Do you think they dont teach all that because of political or nationalistic reasons? Its like “who are these insignificant greeks anyway”.
freeturk51@reddit
More because Turks didnt have much to do with Greeks until the Ottoman Empire's expansion towards the Balkans, conquering most of Greece along the way, and they teach those stuff anyways. Just to add, we dont really learn about Ottoman's conquering Greece as a great or nationalistic event, books mostly just say we did it and not much else about how we should feel about it.
throwawayy00223@reddit
I mean in Slovenia we learn about the history of thw area even when it wasn't yet inhabited by Slavs.
lajoiedeletre@reddit
Btw we learn about Alexander, i remember our teacher talking about him crossing Hellespont and winning the Battle of Granicus. It has been a long time so i don't remember as well but i remember seeing Hellenistic Period in our book.
lajoiedeletre@reddit
Yeah its weird honestly, Ionians are usually the least we learn about too. I remember it being like these were city states called polis, there were significant ones like Miletus and Ephesus and that was it afaik. While we learned about what Phyrigians had as laws lmao.
Utturkce249@reddit
Turks started arriving in asia minor in 1071 after Battle of Malazgirt, children are basically taught that we came from huns,göktürks,uyghurs etc. and we leaved the central asia because of several reasons, we (seljuks) defeated byzantine in malazgirt and started living in.
> Is there some kind of Turkic patriotism regarding Turkey's relationship with Central Asia?
Yep. Check out turanism/pan-turkism. its not a majority tho
hojichahojitea@reddit
does that mean you alrso learn about the history of the central asian steppe? or about the xiongnu or other ancient steppe people like the scythians?
Otherwise-Strain8148@reddit
Turkish military references its foundation to the second khan of the huns. He was the first khan with fiercly loyal elite troops that was the backbone of the hun's army.
Btw, he used these forces to assasinate his father and claim the throne.
The presidential sigil contains 16 stars each representing a former turkic / proto-turkic empire such as the huns, gokturks, the khazars, the mughals etc.
Volcano_9566@reddit
Generally focus on Turkic steppe nomads like Gokturks , Western eastern Gokturks by the despite we are Oghuz Turkic they dont mention about Oghuz Yabgu state and they directly skip at Turkic İslamic states like Seljuks karakhanids.
Seljuks conquers anatolia establishes beyliks and Seljuks of Rum(a branch of larger Seljuk Empire which became fully independent after empire's fragmentation)
Fall of the last remnants of Seljuks in 1308.
Start of second beylik period.
Later rest are Ottomans and Republic history.
Zrva_V3@reddit
Yes. Xiongnu are just referred to as the Asian Huns in Turkish and they are taught in relatively good detail. But that's earlier in the school years. In my experience it was anyway.
The history curriculum in Turkish school goes like this: earlier years start from ancient Mesapotamia and general early ancient human history then move on to proto-Turks in Central Asia. Xiongnu and Götktürks are the ones that get the most focus. Meanwhile pre-Turkic Anatolian civilizations and the Roman Empire get brief focus.
Then other Turkic states come in like Ghaznavids and Karakhanids. Then comes Seljuk Empire and about 1 year is spent on Seljuk history. Ottoman history comes later and gets more focus (for example in high school, the first parts I mentioned took 1 year, Seljuks took another 1 by themselves and the Ottomans get 2 whole years). Turkish Republic's history is also pretty brief as Ottoman decline/collapse and WW1 takes most of the subjects for last years.
Atvaaa@reddit
Yeah, my highschool history teacher gave us extra lectures about the sogdian confederacy, just because we asked him to
InterestingDurian533@reddit
Yes, but the largest chunk of the history classes goes to Ottoman.
Stukkoshomlokzat@reddit
Imagine basing your identity on your ancestors from 6000 years ago.
Thalassophoneus@reddit (OP)
Only the Basque people can do that. They are the last remaining pre-Indo-European people.
Luctor-@reddit
I think the Dutch go back pretty far as well.
Parking-Letterhead20@reddit
Yeah thats also pretty dumb. Hellenic fella
-consilium-@reddit
In my opinion there is not enough emphasis on Anatolian civilisations in Turkey and the influences from the Balkans, Caucasus, Persia.
In Turkey there is too much obsession with being Central Asian and “Turkic” when most don’t know what that means. They get excited when they see similar words between Turkish and Kazakh but in fact those two languages are further apart than Dutch and German
Confident_Emu9344@reddit
"Dealing with it" is weird. It is not an issue, so there is no need to "deal with it". Why would this be an issue? Average Turk has no problems with the fact that Anatolian civilizations existed long before Turks or Greeks. On the opposite, it only makes Anatolia more fascinating.
Also, as you said, Turks have arrived only "relatively" late. Existence or significance of the Turkish identity predates many popular identities such as the English for example. So yea, it was only "relatively" late.
LastHomeros@reddit
A few centuries ago? My brother must have confused Turks with Americans.
As far as I know, Turks have been in Anatolia for almost a millennium which is old enough to be considered native at this point in history.
ForKnee@reddit
Turkey makes a mistake of trying to deal with it.
Turkey's public education in this regard, much like most of the policies about Turkey's founding and identity, is primarily defensive in nature. It tried to justify Turkish presence in a combination of glorifying Turkish conquest, minimizing Greek history in Anatolia and emphasizing or even making fanciful claims about Pre-Hellenic presence. Because it was primarily trying to discredit the Western-backed Greek claims over parts of Anatolia.
This might seem strange now what with different ideas about land grabs but back then it was a real concern and anxiety of non-Western states to try to justify their existence on a piece of land and make arguments for why their presence was not just defensible but actually desirable. Because being delegitimized on the ground of historical claims and being colonized as a result was not only not uncommon but the standard as it happened in most Western colonies.
Classical antiquity was very popular in the West and any presence that could be justified in the texts of classical antiquity was prized. This is also a reason for all sorts of bizarre theories of origins and claims in Balkans about ancient past that claims descendancy from one of the groups identifiable in classical antiquity. This is also why a lot of association was made in particular about Hittites. After all peak of Hittite state predated Alexander the Great and subsequent Hellenization of Anatolia for about a thousand years, that's roughly the same "few centuries" as Turkish presence in Anatolia.
It's unfortunate that his was something to not only "deal with" as a society, but also something to prove in international relations. Because historically Turks didn't really reckon with this in any way, some of the more educated acknowledged that many who call themselves Turks or similar were of mixed origins and often had non-Muslim ancestors only a generation or two before them. It doesn't seem to have caused them any problems. I assume same was true for any Hellenized Christian that lived in 6th century Anatolia whose ancestors few generations ago might have not spoken Greek or be a Christian.
Greeks of course, despite making the ground zero of "Western civilization" in the classical text weren't spared this. Because Eastern Roman Empire wasn't exactly favorable in West, it was something that Westerners measured their success against and they never particularly liked any competition over their own claim over Roman Empire. That's why modern Greeks, despite 1000 years of Eastern Roman history from collapse of Western part to end of Roman Empire in 1453 primarily attached itself to Greek antiquity. Those few centuries making the 1000 years of history weren't seen as important as the long Hellenistic period from Golden Age of Athens to Roman conquest, which was 500 years long, certainly longer than few centuries that fits in 1000 years.
The reason for this is of course because people aren't simply just a sum of genetic or cultural sediment that forms into a singular whole that can identified without any connection to anyone else. Yet nation must be singular, independent and never conquered even if its territory is taken over. Admitting connections or worse influence by another people who speaks another language is admitting defeat, as bad as being conquered.
That's why, when Turkey tried to deal with it, had to discredit any connection the Central Asian conquerors could have had to Anatolia and its history, even when the religion got converted to Islam by Iranians whose history itself was deeply tied with Anatolia and Alexander the Great. Nor could it acknowledge that mentions of Greek, Persian, Arab and Indian figures, as well as Alexander, exists in both secular and religious texts of Ottoman Empire. Same Alexander that is sometimes identified as Dhu Al-Qarnayn, or Zülkarneyn, in Quran.
Kitsooos@reddit
Alexander the Great is in the freaking Quran ?????
AcanthocephalaSea410@reddit
He's talking nonsense, don't take him seriously.
mertkksl@reddit
He is in the Qur'an. Search up Dhul-Qarnayn.
Volcano_9566@reddit
Zulkarneyn is associated with Alexander but in Qur'an its not clearly states that him being Alexander other than mentions about the character and appearance of Zulkarneyn which is very similar to Alexander this is why it is associated.
mertkksl@reddit
The mention of two-horns among other stuff lays out a very strong case that it is him.
Volcano_9566@reddit
This is why i said appearance both horns and others but not directly is stated is he Alexander or not. Most probably he could be but mentioning about hım directly this is what i meant
StamatisTzantopoulos@reddit
He is indeed.
WeeklyRain3534@reddit
Arrived late? We have been ruling Anatolia for over a thousand years now. Ridiculous irredentism of Greeks sounds deranged more and more. Grow up.
TheGodfather742@reddit
Dude Anatolia has been home to countless people since the dawn of civizilation. He didn't curse your mother, he said you are one of later races to arrive on the region, which is 100% correct. I don't know why you pull Greek irredentism out of your *ss.
Parking-Letterhead20@reddit
Thousand fucking years. Being latest means nothing that greek didnt ask this for fun you know that so shut the fck up
LowCranberry180@reddit
We are taught the early civilisations such as Hittites or Lydians in detail I would say. Than the histoıry books focus on Mongolia Central Asia to Turkic people. Very little focus on Greek history a bit Byzantium.
So the focus is how Anatolia is the cradle of civilisation. Than they teach us how we brought peace and harmony to China to Europe Attila the Hun Central Asia and than become Muslim and brought more peace and harmony to Middle East and Balkans.
User20242024@reddit
So, how your history would deal with recent discovery that Hunnic language was in fact Paleo-Siberian and not Turkic?
LowCranberry180@reddit
very proud. Turkic derived from Paleo-Siberian no problem there.
Kalypso_95@reddit
If that's what peace and harmony looks like, we'll take the wars thank you 🙏
bravo_six@reddit
The second paragraph is the biggest bullshit I have ever heard related to history.
Kalypso_95@reddit
Yeah those peaceful invaders and conquerors lol!
BankBackground2496@reddit
Tell me more about Alexander the Great.
Sea_Top9815@reddit
Why you don't ask iranians how they have Alexander the great in their books and how they refer to Greeks in general? Now go and ask everyone about ottomans and lets see.
BankBackground2496@reddit
I'm well aware about the mutual respect between Greeks and Persians/Iranians. But what led to the downfall of the Sasanian Empire was the battle of Nineveh 626. That was followed by Yarmuk in 628 which made possible Manzikert in 1071 and from then on it was game over.
Had it not been for the Arabs today you'd have a quarrel with the Iranians instead of the Turks. Or vice versa.
BankBackground2496@reddit
I'm Romanian and I'm ok with the Ottomans. We've had worse.
Kalypso_95@reddit
What is there to tell? He was a peaceful invader and conqueror of course, brought peace and harmony and...no such bs in our history books, his empire was doomed after his death
Romanian trying to be a smartass here
BankBackground2496@reddit
Protector of men of course.
Now tell me about the Greek speaking Roman Empire.
Victory in war makes you the rightful ruler/owner.
Kalypso_95@reddit
🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
Who said anything about rightful rulers? You should learn to read before commenting
Maybe Vlad the impaler should enjoy the Ottoman peace and harmony instead of impaling their asses
BankBackground2496@reddit
Vlad's rule is overstated. He ruled a minor Ottoman dependency three times on and off. What makes you think I'd defend him?
Do you have similar views on Alexander the Great?
Kalypso_95@reddit
I think that you don't even understand what we're talking about here. Read the whole convo again and provide an answer that's actually to the point or don't answer at all
bravo_six@reddit
Brought peace and harmony to China lol.
LowCranberry180@reddit
I put some irony there. I thought that I was clear.
CataphractBunny@reddit
My thoughts exactly. Turks are the worst thing to ever happen to the Balkans, and we're still dealing with the consequences of their genocides and empire.
mertkksl@reddit
This is a reductionist statement that overlooks other historical conflicts in the region and the Soviet era which doesn’t have much to do with the Ottomans.
The Slavs were not exactly on friendly terms with the Byzantines also and were hellbent on conquering Constantinople themselves. The Seljuks were one among many enemies of Byzantium who simply played their cards right in the long run.
The conflicts arising from the internal dissolution of Byzantium itself would still hamper development in the Balkans and would stimulate more discontent and wars even in the absence of Turks.
The Crusaders weren’t exactly on their best behavior in the Balkans either.
7elevenses@reddit
There was no "Soviet era" in Yugoslavia. And for Bulgaria and Romania, the Soviet era is when the people became literate and stopped living in dirt. It's really not comparable in any way.
OTOH, the claim that Ottomans were somehow singularly bad among the medieval foreign rulers who overstayed their welcome is indeed reductionist. The Ottoman empire did bring a measure of peace and trade and slow progress to the Balkans, but in the last 200-300 years, it was stagnating itself and keeping the Balkans back.
CataphractBunny@reddit
It's not, but it's obvious why you would want to paint it that way. The Turks came in with genocides, stealing of children, forced conversions, and resource extraction. That was in the areas they conquered. Neighboring countries were graced with centuries of warfare.
The Soviets have little to do with this, as Yugoslavia was not a part of the Soviet sphere of influence and her least developed republics were the ones that spent centuries under Ottoman rule. This ultimately led to its dissolution since Slovenia and Croatia got tired of financing them.
Kalypso_95@reddit
My favourite Croat!
CataphractBunny@reddit
Oh, Kalypso! :))
Didn't even realize I was replying to your comment. How's things in Greece? No giant fires, I hope?
Kalypso_95@reddit
It wouldn't be Greece if there weren't any giant fires, it's like our summer tradition. Today Eastern Attica is burning. This summer isn't as hot as the last one at least
How are things in Croatia?
CataphractBunny@reddit
Same old, same old. Loads of tourists, politicians robbing us blind, a farce of a judicial system. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Kalypso_95@reddit
So Croatia is like Greece but without the wildfires :/
CataphractBunny@reddit
We actually have those as well. 😭
desertedlamp4@reddit
You are better off definitely but do not say that with the ongoing war in Gaza 💀
SecretSquirrel10@reddit
Indeed, Turks freed the oppressed wherever they went 😂😂😂
ballzstreetwets@reddit
Everything is Greek. Built by Greeks and given to the world, for free. Arts, literature, science, medicine, philosophy, theater, mathematics, geometry, Olympic games... should I go on? Change my mind. Oh, I forgot, the alphabet and, of course, more than 5 million words, many of them you can find in any language. Did I mention architecture?
RedditStrider@reddit
I heard Greeks first discovered fire and concept of sex too.
Zrva_V3@reddit
And later the Romans tried it with the opposite sex, another great milestone.
Thalassophoneus@reddit (OP)
I have news for you.
I have big news for you.
Zrva_V3@reddit
I think you overestimate the relatively late in human history part. Even if it's techically true it's not that significant. Because no matter how you look at it, it's been nearly 1000 years since Turks started settling here. That's a very long time. We are almost as far apart from the first Seljuk Invasions as the birth of Jesus Christ. A lot of European nations settled in their current lands about 500-600 years earlier than Seljuks settled in Anatolia. Not everyone stayed where they are as long as Greeks did.
So in short, people don't really care. And in schools we do learn about pre-Turkic Anatolian civilizations, once you look at the history of Anatolia you see that it was a hotly contested place, being conquered by lots of empires and peoples. We are no different. We're just lucky enough to have kept it until most countries' borders have become largely fixed.
salatawille@reddit
How come the name of the country isn't Ottomania?
Future_Adagio2052@reddit
The county was founded to distance itself from the ottoman empire via secularism
salatawille@reddit
I see, thank you!
AcanthocephalaSea410@reddit
Not just a few centuries ago, but more than a thousand years ago. 1071 relates to the date when the Seljuks achieved permanent control of Türkiye's borders. Turkish history in Anatolia, or Asia Minor, dates back to earlier times. Turkish rule in Egypt began in the 9th century. Following the war with Iran, the Western Huns advanced from the Caucasus to Syria around the 4th century. We can find Runic inscriptions from this period. In earlier times, there was a migration of Sakha Turks from the Caucasus to Egypt.
No, to understand the history of the peninsula.
All neolithic societies are in the curriculum. Many details such as the start of agriculture from Göbekli Tepe etc. are explained. Sumerian zygorates, their relationship with god, etc. Byzantium is taught in textbooks. The Roman war with Attila and the division between East and West. The East-West schism born of Christian belief systems. The Latin sack of Byzantium, and so on, are almost all taught. Greek history is taught compulsorily in schools throughout Europe. In Türkiye, following the Marshals Service(Post-World War II), the United States intervened and made Greek history compulsory in Türkiye's curriculum. All of them are included in the course content. More of these societies are taught a lot.
No, it's told in a normal way. In Europe, it's told as if they were their ancestors, but in Türkiye, you can think of it as a narrative of Egyptian history. The history of the Iranians is told in the same way as the Greeks or the Byzantines. Greek and Byzantine history contain more detail.
Are you asking about school or society in general? Since they are our ancestors, we learn their history too.
Expert-Repair-2971@reddit
We do not care nor do i i would like to thank my turkish side of ancestory for making me muslim so no retarded trinity and speaking turkisn harmonious sounding and relaxingly structured that has many calming musics easy on the eyes dances end dresses and for the yoğurt too
Also thank you to my ancestors from turkisy side for saving us from decadance of the byzantine and i would write more but whatever
İ like being a türk thank you all 🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰
No_Technician_4709@reddit
We were taught about Anatolian civilizations, but not in as much detail as Turkic history. As far as I remember, only the Hittites and Lydians were covered in a bit more depth. After that, the focus shifted to Turkic history and the Xiongnu, though we mostly concentrated on the Göktürk Khaganate and its policies. I remember learning that the Göktürks and the Byzantines had diplomatic relations — in fact, there was a Sogdian messenger sent to the Byzantine Empire, which initiated diplomatic ties. Then came the wars against the Iranians to disrupt their control over the silk trade.
I can’t recall much else about the Byzantine Empire, but I’ve always enjoyed Byzantine history. After that, the curriculum moved on to the Battle of Manzikert, the Seljuks, and the Ottomans. Turks today definitely have a patriotic connection to Central Asia, even though the Turkic peoples did not originally come from there. I remember as a child, one of my teachers said that we had Asiatic features. When I asked what happened to them, he simply replied, “We mixed.”
We rarely talked about how modern Turks are a blend of Anatolian, Rûm, and other peoples. My history classes also touched on Greek, Iranian, and some Anatolian myths.
No_Technician_4709@reddit
It would be really interesting to learn more about the Mitanni, a kingdom with Indo-Aryan influence, but in school we mostly focused on Turkic history.
Zekieb@reddit
I see, now its the Turks turn to be asked ragebait questions.
ByzantineCat0@reddit
How is this ragebait?
PussyRiot1@reddit
Our curriculum has a very revisionist attitude towards the pre-Seljuk history of Anatolia that utilizes miscategorization and omittence in order to strengthen the Turkish claims on the land.
The early Anatolian civilizations are touched upon as native kingdoms that have invented ground-breaking stuff like coinage etc. There is however no mention of them being "Greek" or "Helene" as these two terms never really appear in our books. The details surrounding the character of pre-Greek Anatolian civilizations are vague and their inclusion in the Greek world after Alexander the Great's conquests is entirely omitted. The main goal is to create a break between native Anatolians and Greeks as to weaken Greek claims of being native to Anatolia. This viewpoint is further highlighted in books sold in national museums where the "Greek theory" is deemed as a Western falsification that solely serves to undermine Turkish presence in the region(ie. Turkophobia).
Byzantium is not really touched upon either and this time there is another attempt to create a divide between Ancient Greeks and Byzantines who are referred to as Yunan and Rum respectively as if these terms denote compeletely different peoples with different origins. This intentional, deceitful recategorization extends to linguistics also and we are confronted with Yunanca(Greek proper) and Rumca(Roman language as if to imply it was not Greek).
The main goal is to confuse the student with all the different terms and gaps so they can never really establish a continuous link between Native Anatolians, Ancient Greeks and Eastern Romans(Byzantines). This is important in deferring modern Greek claims on Anatolian land and heritage. Otherwise, it becomes harder to justify the presence of Turkey as a state that has been sterilized of its Christian elements.