User AND Admin passwords should be standard features on ebikes
Posted by Inciteful_Analysis@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 54 comments
Aventon's newest bikes like the Level 3 have a Power ON password which can be enabled. It requires a password to be entered to do anything with the bike. This is a good start, but it is not granular enough. There should be separate passwords to operate the bike (user) and to change the settings (admin).
Ebikes are increasingly being sold as class 1/2/3 selectable via the display menu. This is great for adults. But poses a problem when the bike is intended to be ridden by children. By having a separate admin password, parents can lock the top speed to 20mph (or lower) without worrying that their kid can simply override this while away riding.
To those who will instinctively say passwords are an unnecessary hindrance, there should be no requirement to enable either password if not desired. But having the option to enable would support parental control and safety.
Best-Skin2645@reddit
Well some one sold me one not assemble i assemble it told me it dint have a charger so I bought it for 200 dollars and it's locked
ancientstephanie@reddit
Parental control passwords would be a nice feature, but to be really effective, they need to be set up at the point of purchase as part of the sales process.
FigNinja@reddit
They could simply have it unlocked or with a default password with parental controls off by default. Then, when the owner sets up the bike they can choose to enable security, add a child profile, etc.
ancientstephanie@reddit
99% chance it doesn't get set up at all if it's not set up at point of purchase. Especially given that said features aren't very common or very well marketed, and the teen almost always knows more than the parents.
FigNinja@reddit
I'm not against the shop setting it up for people, but most people don't need profiles. You can have a process on the controller that walks them through a first time setup entering their own password then put ask them if they want profiles. One of my previous jobs was a video app that offered parental controls. This kind of workflow is just not that hard.
ancientstephanie@reddit
Again, only in the cases where parental controls are needed, which in the case of a young teenager, is almost always. It may not even need to be separate profiles, it might just be a case of locking class and/or speed via dealer tools until the teen is mature enough to have them unlocked.
FigNinja@reddit
If you’re talking about different sets of credentials, both of which have permission to unlock the bike and ride it, but not all have permission for some settings, that’s a profile-like system. If you don’t have a general lock, then you can simply have a single credential for settings most people would not want a child accessing.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
That would be easy for a LBS.
It would be easy to add a password specification in an online order. But I doubt Velotric or Aventon would want to configure it because it would result in increased support headaches when customers forget they specified a password and are unable to use their new bike. There's also the risk that a typo is made at the factory and the specified password does not match.
ancientstephanie@reddit
Registration to an online account, With a phone number, email address, and maybe a designated local dealer that could recover your account for you or give you one time codes to reset your password.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I could see some benefit to this cloud approach. It might be overly complicated for some. And many might not like the idea of the manufacturer having this level of control. That OTA firmware updates essentially already give them this level of control will escape some.
ancientstephanie@reddit
Doesn't even necessarily have to be a 100% cloud approach. Might not even be directly connected to the bike at all, it could just give you one time programming codes for a bike that's registered to you.
ancientstephanie@reddit
Ideally, you'd also have the option of just letting a dealer manage parental control locks for you too. license key style, in case you're dealing with particularly creative teenagers.
unseenmover@reddit
the ability to disable the bike entirely remotely would be nice.
Plane_Ad_6311@reddit
If your bike can be operated in class 3 mode, it's a class 3 with all the applicable restrictions, including user age.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
That may be true legally. Or it may be a gray area. Can a kid without the admin password operate the bike in class 3 mode? Seems unlikely.
At any rate, my concern is safety over legality.
Plane_Ad_6311@reddit
Your kids know your passwords.
RipOk3600@reddit
Just don’t buy kids a class 2 or 3 bike? Stick to a class 1?
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
To be competitive, the mainstream DTC brands sell their bikes as class 2 with the ability to be unlocked as class 3. Just about all of the best models from Aventon, Velotric, RIde1Up, and Lectric support class 3. Sticking to a class 1 is much easier said than done. An admin password accomplishes the goal without having to fragment the market with models specifically targeted to young riders which is inefficient and costly.
RipOk3600@reddit
Not really, most European bikes are only US class 1, as are Australian, I believe UK as well. Both my bikes for example are US class 1. I believe you CAN buy class 2 here (ie some bikes do have throttles) but they are far rarer than just straight pedal assist. I may be wrong but I don’t think their are any class 2 Bosch e-bikes for example and I’m not sure if they even do 3 because they wouldn’t be EU legal
ancientstephanie@reddit
EU has two market-wide classifications (and a bunch of country specific ones).
pedelec (25km/h 15.5mph, 250w, no throttle, legally same as a bicycle)
s-pedelec (45 km/h 28mph, but you need a moped license).
If that last one sounds very familiar, it's because the US Class 3 definition is actually the European s-pedelec class, rebranded, and introduced into the US thanks to lobbying by Bosch.
Bosch basically offers three different firmware limited configurations:
Pedelec class for 25/kmh markets around the world, including EU.
Class 1 for the 20mph US market.
S-Pedelec/Class 3 for 45km/h and 28mph markets in the US and EU.
Bosch does not offer class 2 at all. The closest thing to a throttle you'll find is walk assist.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
The EU limits ebikes to 25kph (15.5mph). US class 1 is limited to 20mph. They are not the same.
Most mid-drives do not use throttles. Bosch does not. They do however make class 3 mid-drives.
You should do some more research before sharing your knowledge.
Droidstation3@reddit
What's wrong with a pedal bike? At what point in history did pedal bikes become "inadequate" for minors?
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Why do you want to substitute your opinion for parental discretion? Do you realize that pedal bikes are effectively useless in some neighborhoods with steep hills?
Droidstation3@reddit
What goes up must also come down. Just make sure you're not "that guy" that sues the ebike companies into oblivion because your kid got hurt on a bike that was too powerful for them to control.
And make sure you're also not "that guy" that tries to overlegislate against adult riders BECAUSE your kid got hurt on a bike that was too powerful for them to control.
You act completely oblivious to where my "opinion" comes from in the first place.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Hills are not equalized by gravity on the descent. This is an asinine comment. Riding on flat is much easier.
Not only are you spamming replies you've now strayed into harassment. Goodbye.
Droidstation3@reddit
Why SHOULD ebikes be ridden by children? Have you SEEN the way kids ride "regular" pedal bikes? The crazy wheelie swerving and playing chicken with oncoming traffic? Speed limiting doesn't mean anything. They're still dumb kids that FIND WAYS to do dumb things. Now why on earth would you give them electric bikes AND leave them unsupervised, while expecting "parental controls" to do your job FOR YOU? It's the same ideology as putting a phone in their faces to raise them so you don't have to.
The biggest problem with the parents of today is that they don't ever seem to know ANYTHING about ANYTHING that their kids (or others) are doing. At least, not until they see them on the news. At that point, we all have to pay for it. Ebikes don't need parental controls, they need to only be possessed and operated by adults who can actually afford to buy them in the first place. Kids can't be trusted with that kind of power, ESPECIALLY around their friends.
It won't kill you, as a parent, to say "No". It won't kill them either, but giving in to their every demand and being an "enabler" just might. If you had a proper understanding of kids AND you had a proper understanding of electric bikes, you would never mix the two.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Feel free to start a post advocating that parents not allow kids to have an ebike. That's not the topic of this post.
Droidstation3@reddit
So do you support "prevention", or would you rather just wait for the bad stuff to happen and then react after the fact? People don't really understand what it is that they're handing over to their young, impressionable and rebellious kids.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I've already addressed this. Some parents are comfortable with their child riding a class 1 ebike (20mph) but not a class 3 (28 mph). It's not your decision. Having an admin password would facilitate parental control.
Droidstation3@reddit
Well seeing as how you're not a manufacturer, its kinda not YOUR decision either. We're all just giving our opinions here.
Worth-Exchange-3931@reddit
How about just tell your kid to listen and not ride fast
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
What percent of kids do you think this would work on? 5%? 10%? Maybe if we are being generous, 20%?
Droidstation3@reddit
And that's PRECISELY why kids should not be operating electric bikes. They don't listen to reason and don't follow the rules. So why would you grant them access to something that requires the UTMOST responsibility, "or else"?
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Many would trust their kid to ride a class 1 ebike but not a class 3 ebike. This post focuses on one method to achieve that without rejecting the most popular models on the market.
Droidstation3@reddit
But there is "A" market of bicycles that kids can ride. The same market of bicycles that we all grew up on.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
You already brought this up and I already responded. Now you are just spamming on multiple repeated comments. My tolerance is wearing thin.
VisibleFun9999@reddit
Well to be fair if your kid respects you, they should listen.
ancientstephanie@reddit
The other thing that effective e-bike parental controls need to work the ability to quickly and easily see that they are still in place. If it does get unlocked or factory reset, or somehow changed to hybrid class2+class3, it should be obvious to someone looking at the display, the app should complain when it's within bluetooth range of the bike, etc.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Aventon already has an app for tracking rides and such. Seems like what you are suggesting would be relatively simple. If an error log/diagnostic log is kept in persistent memory(storage), it could also record changes to top speed.
boncros@reddit
A removable screen that locks the bike when removed would be an easier solution.
RipOk3600@reddit
That’s exactly how the Bosch bike lock works, you can either use a kiox 300 or 500 as the lock so if it’s removed the electronics are disabled OR you can use your phone as the lock. You can now even share it to other app uses if you have paid for flow+
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Did you also only read the title and not the rest of the post? Locking the bike if the display is removed is not a solution to the problem being discussed.
RipOk3600@reddit
I did, I was responding to the post above mine who mentioned locking bike by removing screen
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
No it wouldn't. The idea isn't to prevent kids from riding the bike. It's to prevent them from changing the top speed. This isn't about theft protection.
ancientstephanie@reddit
Top speed, geofencing, GPS tracking, torque curve, all things you don't necessarily want your child changing.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Yep, all of those are applicable.
Innocuous settings like backlighting should not require the admin password.
ancientstephanie@reddit
True. Some settings may be less innocuous than they seem though, A savvy parent might want to change the headlight on/off function to a night/day toggle instead (mandatory daytime running lights).
FigNinja@reddit
That seems helpful for keeping your kid or a stranger from riding it at all, but if I simply want to make sure my kid can’t unlock their Class 1 to be a Class 3, like OP says, it doesn’t cover that use case.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I don't think he bothered reading past the title before replying.
niffcreature@reddit
I mean, it wouldn't be that difficult to design a separate fingerprint reader device TBH
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
That's an added expense. But even if the passwords are replaced by fingerprints, the concept of User and Admin distinction still needs to be preserved. Whether it's passwords, retinal scans, or fingerprints is a separate implementation decision.
RapidRob@reddit
My bike (Voltbike Mariner 2) has that setup.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Good information. All brands should enable password protection for the speed limit.
If I were in charge of Voltbike marketing, I'd call out this parental control as a safety feature in large print.
Reasonable-Rub2243@reddit
Yes please.