A fully electric Macan was definitely a step too far imo. Meanwhile a hybrid with 60 miles+ of range paired up to a motor with even just a tiny bit of emotion and the PDK sounds awesome! I bet that’s what most buyers would prefer.
Most Macan buyers just want a badge. Anything below the GTS trim is devoid of any sort of emotion anyway.
My parents’ Macan S has a much worse and less exciting powertrain than an X3 M40i and the steering/handling is nothing to write home about.
The base Macan drives like an economy car due to how shit the engine is.
The GTS is a decent step up but it’s a tiny fraction of the sales.
And none of them have good exhaust sound.
So yeah, most people who’ve driven both the EV Macan and the ICE one would tell you the EV one is a step up in every way. But in typical Porsche fashion they overpriced the fuck out of the EV Macan. The iX is a better car in every way for much cheaper.
As someone who’ve owned an E92 I can tell you have never driven both.
The E9x BMW had *hydraulic* steering so the amazing road feel and are lightly assisted, and the new Macan S has a very light EPS rack with the typical numb steering.
I would go as far as saying an E92 M3 has better steering than *anything* in the current Porsche line up, GT3 included.
Comparing it to an E90 is crazy I agree. But I just did a BMW driving experience where I autocrossed/tracked like 12 of their current sporty models and honestly they were all completely devoid of steering. the X3 felt far less responsive and barely loaded up. the most engaging BMW I drove was the i4 by far. Even the Z4 felt numb. My Macan is the first gen before we got the Audi engines but the PDK and motor is way more responsive than the BMWs. Sounds worse though. I agree that the Macan steering is light but it definitely loads up and communicates more. It is very dependent on tires though, which is true with all cars. I feel like comparing steering feel is kinda pointless without having the same type of tires at least. I’ve had two separate loaner Macans, same year and same spec that felt incredibly different with the only difference being tires.
I had a 986s, then an E90, followed by an M240i, and now my C8.
I ***still*** miss the steering of that 335i. The Boxster's steering wasn't bad by any means, but damn that BMW hydraulic steering was something truly special. The C8 is an improvement over the M240i, but it still has a bit of a disconnect between the driver and the road and I genuinely don't understand why every automaker suddenly decided proper steering is verboten forevermore.
The Macan owners I know use it as their daily / road trip / utility car.
They own 911s and beat up the Macan when they drive out to the vacation homes.
In that application, an EV Macan is almost useless.
I mean it used to be far more competitive when it launched back in .2016. Back then the x3m40i didn't even exist, b58 was yet to come, even in 2018 when it launched the macan had notably better chassis and steering.
Even the base models - they did a sport edition which used the ea888 but with PASM, exhaust, sport chrono all standard, was like a macan t but better and cheaper. Same issues with the optional equipment, but the competition didn't have much standard at the time either.
Fast forward 9 years and its on its 2nd refresh, same platform, showing its age, still anemic standard equipment when everyone has moved forward, no surprise its fallen behind, absolute shame.
You can tell they were betting on the macan EV replacing the ICE outright and that future never played out
I had a base Macan loaner and it terribly disappointing. Handling wasn't even noticably better than my mom's gen2 base X3. I'm sure Porsche spruces it up a lot for the Macan Turbo or whatever, but the base is literally just a VAG-platform CUV with a Porsche badge.
So my parents’ Macan S has none of the performance options like PASM so it really didn’t feel special on the road, and I didn’t like the steering either.
Maybe it performs better than the X3 at limit, but I don’t drive family crossovers to the limit lol
Yeah the options do improve the experience quite a bit.
Which is also the issue with porsche, the "M Performance" cars are bottles included, there isn't a single option on the x3m50 that changes the actual performance of the car
Meanwhile I have to option the trick diff and pasm on a macan t, what is t about this macan then.
Yes, or PTV+. It feels like more of an exterior package than anything. Anyone who is talking down on the m-sport (ZMP) cars needs to take a look at the macan t
I wanted to see how crazy the Porsche configurator would let me be and specced a $60k base Macan all the way to $150k. I can’t imagine a worse $150k new car purchase.
Definitely agree with you about the base model. I’ve had one for a couple weeks and while I found it to be decent around town, the acceleration was gutless at freeway speeds. Definitely buying for the badge at that point lol
The S for 2022+ gets the 2.9 V6 which is the old GTS’s powertrain, and it’s a great one imho. Im assuming your parents’ Macan S is a 2021 or older. The 2.9 is probably a far more exciting powertrain than the old 3.0.
I agree the base model sucks, I’ve had one for a couple of weeks as a loaner and while it’s decently peppy around town it’s absolutely gutless at freeway speeds (<60mph). Definitely buying for the badge at that point.
I’m assuming your parents’ Macan S was a 2021 or older, because for 2022+ the S gets the old GTS’s powertrain (2.9 V6) which is a great powertrain. Probably more exciting than the old 3.0.
You're getting downvoted but you're right. [The V8 PHEV Cayenne may make a combined 729hp](https://www.caranddriver.com/porsche/cayenne-hybrid) but if you're using it as an EV it only makes 174hp.. for 5672lbs. The whole point of a PHEV (which OP was referring to with "60miles+ of range") is to drive it as an EV most of the time, if the intention is using it as a performance hybrid you don't need a battery that large.
The point is to be able to do either thing when required. Grab your groceries with electric power and then hoon it around on the weekends while making V8 noises. Doesn't really make sense for a Cayenne IMO but I do kind of want a Panamera Turbo S e-hybrid sport turismo.
>Grab your groceries with electric power
I know people don't *need* cars that take less than 10 seconds to reach 60mph but if I was spending Porsche money I wouldn't be content with that slowness in daily driving.
But if you're stuck in traffic might as well let the EV mode do its thing. Want to actually drive it like a Porsche when there's room to stretch its legs? Just wake the engine up and let it sing.
That‘ the point. They are meant to mostly be driven Electric but then you are slow as fuck. So you drive with ICE on, but then you just have a 300 Kg heavier ICE car with a bit less lag, but that‘s just not worth it
The excitement of the turbo S is kinda wearing off on me. Now that Corvette makes a 1200 horsepower car for less than the turbo S its gimmick is no longer as impressive.
I'm gonna guess it's the rear seats and AWD? Personally I was fine with RWD in winters but I also don't know what it's like to drive an RWD car with that much HP in the winters. Rear seats might be good for people with kids but personally I love fast food and having to hold your food in your lap after the drive thru instead of just tossing it in the back seat is kind of an inconvenience.
Why isn't the ZR1 good at being a daily?
It's got a lot more storage capacity than the 911, and the suspension in comfort setting has better ride than the 911 too.
C8's mag-ride suspension in general is superior to the 911 in terms of ride quality, and also handling unless it's a GT car (the Turbo doesn't even get double-wishbone)
The corvette is FAR more practical of a daily driver than any 911 has been lmao.
I say this as somebody who used to own a 986 which had twice the storage space of comparable 911's. If you're trying to argue based on a 911 being a "4-seater" you'll also need to try again because the rear seats in them are only usable by people with above the knee amputation or babies in infant car seats.
The ZR1 is a track focused car. It will behave terribly on the road for most people.
The Turbo is gentle as fuck and comfortable in all conditions. It’s a GT. That’s what it does.
Found the guy who has never before sat in a ZR1 Corvette before.
Particularly with the advent of magnetic ride control I'd bet good money on it being perfectly comfortable to drive around town.
I wonder what the new price will be, probably north of $250k?
My prediction is that it will be a hybrid AWD that does 9s in the 1/4 mile, and an absurd 0-60 thanks to Porsche’s launch control.
But it will also have the same numb steering and a car that’s devoid of any personality. I agree with Thomas from Throttle House that it’s probably the most boring car in the entire segment and I have zero interest in ever owning one.
I'm not sure why people are surprised at the increasing MSRP when the ADMs were so large. It's clear people are willing to pay, that's just where the price of the 911 is.
Yep. Just like how after Covid people started paying Patek prices for Rolex Submariners due to influences/marketing, the 911 has moved up a product segment without any actual change to the product.
Some of the best media strategy I’ve seen in the car industry honestly. Not only do all the journalists get paid off and lie about the 911 and now all the influencers jumped onto the bandwagon as well because that’s what the audience wants to hear.
I'm just surprised anyone can still have enough integrity to keep saying the 911 is as much of an enthusiast car as it's always been. No manual in the base trim, cheap push button start out of any VW product, no more analog gauges, and increasingly numb inputs. Its basically a grand tourer now and more about the image of a 911 than the actual driving experience.
The base 911 is neither an enthusiast car nor a luxury GT car ( full plastic interior, no powered seats), it’s a marketing exercise so Porsche can milk people’s childhood aspiration for $150k lol.
Porsche can afford to give you powered seats on a 130K car. There is no reason for them not to, other than because they know they can cut it out, save the money, and some sucker will rationalize “It’s not a bug, it’s a feature”.
Power seats are a terrible example if your point is that they are cost cutting.
For one thing, there are legitimate reasons for not wanting power seats in a sports car.
Also, it might actually cost them MORE to maintain two production processes and not just put power seats in everything like cheaper manufacturers do.
It's not just rationalization. I bet if you polled Porsche buyers, a significant number would prefer manual seats. I know I would.
Mercedes in the 70s and 80s is an example of a company that certainly wasn't cutting corners on cost, and used manual seats long after competitors had switched to power versions, because they had a rational engineering philosophy that favored simple, lightweight mechanical solutions when there was no compelling reason for the additional weight and complexity of an electric motor.
Power seats being this mandatory feature is such a shallow r/cars Reddit take.
What a wild take.
Toyota is more reliable than Porsche and the Corolla has powered seats.
Meanwhile a base 911 is $140k, after raising MSRP year after year with almost no meaningful upgrade.
I agree things are expensive these days, because of corporate greed, from companies like Porsche.
"Corporate greed". Does this mean that when things were more affordable 50 or 100 years ago, it's because corporations were less greedy?
Of course, the idea is silly. Corporations have the same profit incentive they have always had. Things are expensive today because of complex structural economic factors, not because corporations suddenly got more evil.
You do know the 911 price has far outpaced inflation right?
I didn’t say corporations got more evil, I said they are greedy. Those aren’t the same.
And Porsche post-IPO has indeed been more focused on short term profits.
You said they raising prices due to greed, which implies that them not raising them earlier was based on being less greedy. That they were being charitable then, and are being greedy ("evil") now. That's not true. Porsche is a firm seeking to maximize their self interest, as they have always done, just like any other.
The auto industry basically operates as a government-supported oligopoly, with heavy barriers to entry and preventing competition. To the extent that Porsche is able to raise prices, it is due to this. But calling this corporate greed ignores the real problem, which is more structural.
As for the 911 outpacing inflation, sure, if you use the official CPI numbers. Those are calculated with a basket of consumer goods though, very different from something like a car where the inputs are raw materials and labor.
I don't own a Porsche, for the record. I just think it's unfair to criticize them for not having standard power seats. You say they're maximizing short term profits, but I see a company who has done everything they can to hold onto their legacy and ethos in a very difficult regulatory environment. The 992 911 is essentially a classic 901 911 updated for the modern day. The fact that they can get below 3k lbs. in GT guise is amazing. They're one of the last companies left still making somewhat attainable cars for enthusiasts, with things like manual transmissions and NA engines. It's not easy or cheap to do that in 2025. Power seats have downsides, by the way, and I'm still glad there is an engineering-oriented company that is building cars without them.
I don’t know what you are talking about.
The 992 Carrera is 3400 lbs in weight, it’s no where near “below 3k lbs in weight”.
It does not offer manual.
It does not have an NA engine.
It’s a full on GT car without the luxury, but it also doesn’t have the traits for a pure driver’s car either.
I don’t know what you are talking about.
The 992 Carrera is 3250lbs in weight, it’s no where near “below 3k lbs in weight”.
It does not offer manual, it’s PDK only.
It does not have an NA engine, it’s a turbo six.
It’s a full on GT car without the luxury, but it also doesn’t have the traits for a pure driver’s car either.
> it’s not easy or cheap
Considering the profit margin on the 911 is something like 40%, the *highest* out of any mass production cars on the planet (excluding exotics), I would argue their profit margin absolutely would allow powered seats.
You are making it sound like Porsche is barely break even or something when they have the highest profit margin in the auto industry out of any mass consumer brand.
\>cheap push button start out of any VW product
Now that, that is what Porsche always was. It's the luxuries and plushness of the new cars that have really changed what they are. Look at anything from the 997/987 on back - they're light, simple, spartan, and full of parts with VW or Audi logos. They didn't really cater to the luxury demo much at all, compared to the likes of Aston, Ferrari, or even Audi and Merc, they were just sports cars. Now they have all these high-end, exclusive, customizable features and fiddly details that make them far too expensive to be the direct peer of something like the Corvette that was once the closest comparison.
> (apparently there is still lag and the front end now is even more numb and the exhaust got worse)
As someone who is a track instructor and drove the 992.2 GTS extensively to confirm if I should get an allocation... I have no idea what you're talking about.
Immediate turbo response.
Fantastic sound.
Best 911 I've driven outside of a GT3...and I track a 718 GT4 almost weekly.
Order in.
> immediate turbo response
I mean even Porsche’s official literally says they only reduced the turbo lag, and not reducing it to zero.
I’m sure it’s much better than the car before, but still a turbo engine.
At the end of the day my use case is different from yours. I don’t drive on the track, and I don’t find any 911s that impressive on the public road, GT3 included (when compared to other $300k cars).
> Honestly if you put a gun to my head and force me to get a non-GT 911 today, I would choose a well-optioned Carrera S RWD.
>
>
Not a Carrera T? That'd be my choice.
Yep! You can see it [here](https://newsroom.porsche.com/dam/jcr:f10cc150-9305-4c43-a2ed-58e80d098f9b/992.2%20911%20Carrera%20T%20and%20Carrera%20T%20Cabriolet%20Technical%20Specifications.pdf) (pdf file) or just watch any review of it on youtube. It has even got a new gear shifter with real wood!
Yep! You can see it here https://newsroom.porsche.com/dam/jcr:f10cc150-9305-4c43-a2ed-58e80d098f9b/992.2%20911%20Carrera%20T%20and%20Carrera%20T%20Cabriolet%20Technical%20Specifications.pdf or just watch any review of it on youtube. It has even got a new gear shifter with real wood!
All modern 911s are pretty bland. I don’t ever see myself buying one again. I still love my old ones and my spyder rs. But if I want modern performance I’ll be moving to McLaren or Ferrari. They’re just so much more interesting to drive and now are priced somewhat close to one another
Yeah people are paying Ferrari 296 money for the GT3, that is just batshit insane lol.
The two cars are like 2 tiers apart in terms of how good they are.
I haven't driven the base 992, I didn't mind the turbocharged 991.2s I've driven (S, GTS) so hard for me to comment, but a buddy of mine got an allocation for the new 992.2 GTS and I strongly urged him to try a used GT4 or Spyder instead. If the 992 is similar to the 991.2 then I can understand where you're coming from, I couldn't justify paying the same amount (or more in most cases) for a 991.2 C2S vs a new GT4.
Agreed. I’ve owned all sorts of 911s and Caymans. Loved the Turbo but it’s like an EV these days. Used to be a fire breathing monster but has been tamed by traction control and nannies.
I’ll take a 996/997 manual turbo any day.
I used to own a 992 turbo s, now sold because I was offered a 992.2 gt3 touring allocation. What you said is true. A bullet-proof car, but a boring one after the first few hundred miles. It also feels heavy.
The 7-speed in the non-GT 911s aren’t that great anyway, and I’d argue for a car like that the PDK is a much better fit.
I doubt the Turbo will have manual, since they even removed it from the GTS due to the hybrid system, and the Turbo will be a hybrid as well.
So, being honest the only 992 stick I've driven is the gt3, and the only 992 Carrera I've driven is the PDK.
[As part of Car & Driver's review of the 992.1 Carrera S, it talks about how they took the PDK and removed parts to create a manual (and needed a special system called mecosa since the PDK gears aren't in the same order as a manual -- last paragraph of the review).](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a33510847/2020-porsche-911-carrera-s-manual-enjoyment/)
lol, i drive an old manual peugeot wagon. I think it's safe to say that the list of ideal things about it is at shorter than the list of less than ideal things.
My dream car for now is a 992.1 GTS with the 7 speed and i bet it would blow my goddamn mind.
Hard to describe, just feels a bit off and worse than their 6 speed. I have a six speed in my Boxster 4.0 and that thing is truly great (minus the long gearing)
I’ve only driven it once or twice so my words aren’t gospel, but from what I hear it’s not an uncommon opinion.
I just don't understand the point of the turbo, if you're paying that much for a 911 just pay the $30k extra for like 70hp, carbon ceramics, interior, pdcc, lights, etc. I feel like they will differentiate it further by just widening the price gap rather than do anything to the turbo lol
And as an aside a $200k+ car you still need to pay an extra $400 to get power folding mirrors .... a scion iM had power folding mirrors standard.
> Honestly if you put a gun to my head and force me to get a non-GT 911 today, I would choose a well-optioned Carrera S RWD.
I’d buy a SportClassic and kill myself like real men in the 80’s did.
That was before we truly got to know how crazy the Porsche market was. 911ST allocations were selling for 250k. If the SC was released now, I've no doubt that it would be around that.
Literally no one wants an electric 718 successor.
No actual enthusiast wants an electric car. Have they not learned their lesson with horrid Taycan sales and everyone else with declining EV sales?
Not really - the company they were using for their prototype prismatic cells went bankrupt, which added delays - and they still haven’t been able to hit internal targets for range/weight with different cells from CATL which caused the second big delay.
While demand is in the gutter now because of their decimation in the Chinese market, probably not a lot of weight behind getting it out the door.
That might have been an aspect of it, but plenty of brands have come out stating that EV sports cars have no demand...
Who tf wants an EV Cayman when the ICE Cayman is regarded as one of the most underrated cars currently in production...
Point at a *single good example* of an EV *sports car* on the market.
They’re claiming a lack of demand, when the market segment is largely untested.
*I* wanted an EV Cayman. I *wanted* a compact EV coupe that didn’t weigh 2 tons and handled well.
Because I’d rather have instantaneous, linear throttle response and ludicrous torque than a laggy, mediocre-sounding turbo 4-pot.
But people like yourself, for *some* reason, can’t imagine someone actually enjoying and *wanting* an EV drivetrain. We exist, you’re just not listening, and nor are most manufacturers.
Porsche fucked around for too long, sent prices through the stratosphere, and are no longer interested in building a good sports car (EV or ICE) for non-supercar money. So I don’t really care what they do at this point.
And if I wanted a *good* ICE Cayman, I’d buy a 981.
No. The main reason is that the battery supplier went bankrupt.
Porsche now has Macan, Cayenne, and Panamera to fit into the high volume money printers so they don't need a Boxster/Cayman anymore. At Zuffhausen they're already maxed out production on the 911/718 line, why cut into profits making a cheaper car when it can go to building a 911? A 718 and a 911 costs very similar amount in terms of pure production costs but most 911s are sold for double 718.
That's why they did a retooling of the VW Osnabruck to build the last 3 years of 718. It was cheaper to move 718 production to a VW plant so that they can focus their money maker in Zuffhausen. However, that factory will most likely be sold to a defense contractor due to... **gestures at political state in the world*
They want their sports car heritage to be purely 911 and the 718 EV is just a test bed for the future and for markets that have high emissions requirements (like China).
https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article68823e4ddcfaf52c88b4f5e1/ruestungsindustrie-volkswagen-in-osnabrueck-vor-dem-aus-jetzt-schielt-rheinmetall-auf-das-vw-werk.html
Rheinmetall is in discussions to buy the plant so they can probably retool to make tanks and stuff.
> A 718 and a 911 costs very similar amount in terms of pure production costs but most 911s are sold for double 718.
The whole thread on the fate of the 718 in one sentence. Well put.
Porsche has been positioning its model line, with the exception of the 911, Cayenne, and Panamera aimed squarely at China for a while now. China for several years, was Porsches single largest market - and a major motivator towards their shift towards EVs.
The head of Porsche sports car development has explicitly said that without China, the entire Cayman/Boxster line would have been discontinued after the 981. It was the primary reason the 718 switched to 2/2.5L 4 cylinders as China has aggressive displacement taxes.
The EV718 was a decision made for the Chinese market.
So, over the years, Porsche has been positioning their models to best compete in the Chinese market, spending huge amounts of cash to do so - and with the insane, meteoric rise of the Chinese domestic EV industry, Porsche is left with half a portfolio of vehicles that aren't competitive in their target market, and aren't aligned with the demands from their traditional markets (NA/EU) combined with those markets general EV adoption slow-down.
Porsche is considering pulling out of the Chinese EV market entirely, after placing a ton of huge bets on their success there.
It’s why they’ve 180d on the Macan EV only strategy.
Which is funny, because Porsche China was screaming alarm out for years and was basically ignored
Porsche in China is very female; in that there's a 50/50 split unlike the US' 80-20 and Germany's 90-10 in favour of men. Chinese managers said to not run ads that were male focused/do more things to appeal to women and were basically ignored
Same with tech; urban areas suck dick to drive in, so while drivers do enjoy performance, they also want to be able to commute and basically turn that performance down. Which Porsche doesn't really offer
Just on price/performance comparison, I’m not sure there’s a lot Porsche could have done to maintain their momentum.
Sure, they didn’t do a good job including the features that the market cares about - but they were never going to be able to maintain their famously high profit margins and also compete with the domestics even if they did include them.
> No actual enthusiast wants an electric car.
I do, fuck, I love driving my Artura in pure EV mode.
I'm extremely interested in an EV Boxster, as the owner of a 4.0 GTS with manual transmission.
Don’t think that’s feasible. They can’t use the 982 platform or supply chain and you can’t really design a good platform that can do both EV and ICE. They’d basically have to make two new cars from scratch.
>Literally no one wants an electric 718 successor.
I mean not *literally* no one.
My dad is hoping to replace his 991.2 Carrera, his fourth 911 and fifth Porsche, after starting with a 944, with an electric boxster in a few years. (I'm hoping I'd be able to buy his 991.2 when that happens)
But yes, I understand your point that demand and the market haven't necessarily matched what Porsche perhaps hoped would materialize.
lol
No true car enthusiast here.
I shopped a long time for my car. I drove the Audi RS6 Avant and the M5. They were fun, but the Panamera was better. I was fully prepared to go with the Panamera, but then I drove the Taycan.
It is by far a better driving car. The Panamera just feels like a fossil compared to it. Even when I had a Panamera loaner for a week, I just wanted to be back in my car, even though it was originally my dream car.
Let me guess - you've never actually driven any of these cars, have you?
> No actual enthusiast wants an electric car.
What an asinine statement. I own a 67 Mustang, a Giulia Quadrifoglio, and a Defender. I also am lusting after the idea of an electric sports car. Am I not an enthusiast? Maybe don't pick other people's opinions for them and you won't look so silly.
I hate to say it but if you look at the sales this makes sense. In the US, the more expensive 911 would outsell it 2:2 every year. Macan would outsell it 5:1.
I dind't know macan shares alot of things with the audi q5. just how much do they share in terms of ride quality? if i get q5 sq5 will be basically feel similiar to macan but just way less expensive?
I think a car like the Macan is very accessible and affordable. And it's crazy that they put an electric motor in it, I don't understand why. I hope they go back to small SUV projects like everyone expected.
> it's crazy that they put an electric motor in it, I don't understand why.
That segment had more demand than supply when they started development. People who wanted a luxury EV CUV had no options. The Model Y isn't luxurious enough and the Rivian R1S is enormous. Porsche was just late to market with the Macan EV. Now you have the iX, EQS SUV, the Volvo EX thing, and a bunch of Cadillacs I don't care to differentiate.
In its first-half earnings call, Porsche confirmed that a new 911 Turbo S will be shown later this year with a hybrid powertrain.
The electric motor in the 911 GTS T-Hybrid is good for a continuous 54 horsepower, meaning the new Turbo S could come close to 700 hp.
Porsche also said a new gas-powered compact SUV will arrive by 2028 as a successor to the outgoing gas-fed Macan.
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