Intel: Ohio plant ‘likely’ canceled if company can’t get new manufacturing customers
Posted by imaginary_num6er@reddit | hardware | View on Reddit | 107 comments
Quatro_Leches@reddit
am convinced that they literally do not have the brain power to come back. they look like what glofo were going through trying to make 7nm work.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
That whole situation alone, is a really comical twist of history intermixed with comedy!
Since GlobalFoundries had their 7nm up and running at least in prototyping (think lab-quantity numbers!) for AMD and their Ryzen, THreadripper and Eypc, to jointy form a trinity of endless supply for AMD in 2018, YET they got refused their IIRC $15–$18Bn USD cash-injection from Mubadala/ATIC.
Meanwhile Intel struggled to get anything going even on 10nm, let alone anything 7nm, DESPITE a (by then still) sheer endless stream of billions of money to make it work (if needed so).
So it was GloFo who had the actual competency, yet lacked the money.
Meanwhile Intel sat on mountains of money, yet lacked the very competency!
It's incredible how funny history often is in retrospect …
SherbertExisting3509@reddit
I wouldn't say it's incompetence in skill for Intel's engineers.
They took way too many risks with 10nm. COAG, 36nm half-pitch and cobalt interconnects are much too aggressive to shoot for in the same node.
Cobalt was considered because it had better leakage characteristics than copper at smaller process nodes.
Cobalt ruined yields because it was so brittle, even changing temperatures and small vibrations were enough to cause cracks in the interconnects.
That's why Cannon Lake was "HVM" but only landed on ONE CPU while having piss-poor yields.
Intel eventually saved the node by developing a cobalt-copper alloy for the vias, this was used in the Intel 7 and 7 Ultra variants in Alder and Raptor Lake
Contact over active gate took a long time to perfect but Intel manged to do that with Intel-4
It took 3 years for Intel to develop a solution to cobalt.
Intel ditched the cobalt vias idea with Intel-4, and they switched back to copper vias with cobalt tips
With 18A, Intel developed "subtractive ruthenium" vias to replace copper, which improved capacitance by 25% with half-pitch sizes below or equal to 25nm.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
It's at least ignorant to refuse to learn from failures and still trying to things. From the outside it pretty much looks like incompetence for everyone else, since it's a phenomenon which people usually call "being stupid".
Without doubt, yes! Though all these high-faluting and completely overblown ambitions on 10nm with sheer bombastic metrics (mindlessly throwing every damn thing into the mix, their labs ever came up with), where in good part due to Intel trying to make timely amends in the first place, SINCE they tried to compensate for all the delays and time lost on the processes which lead up to 10nm, to recoup already lost time up until then to begin with.
You see their circular reasoning on all their (over-) ambitions at play in all of this?!
Yes, and Intel should've ditched ALL of everything advanced, throw every fancy stuff overboard (which was initially planned to be incorporated into 10nm), and just go for a respectively scaled 10nm-process on damn copper.
Putting everything Contact Over Active Gate and their Cobalt'nStuff, and put it on the back-burner alongside a plain well-tried copper-based 10nm – Saving their face and sit-upon in the process, while working on figuring things out on their originally planned 10nm in the backyard, when copper 10nm was running the show on front yard.
Another proof of their ignorance and reason forwhy Intel should've already put a copper-based 10nm-variant in place by 2015, when it was clear to see for everyone involved, that it was impossible to make it work of a 2015-launch.
Yes, they refused to let go of cobalt, tried to make it work for 3 years, only to abandon it afterwards …
When it turned out, that … it didn't work! — A brilliant achievement of a sane mind, obviously.
… which should've been the original v1.0 10nm-process in the backyard to be made at, eventually replacing their (by then already) long-running copper-based 10nm-variant, yes.
Any kind of efforts on research and development, are mostly moot, if they're basically unusable in praxi.
SherbertExisting3509@reddit
All of this reeks of the famous Intel(tm) arrogance from Intel's leadership that has constantly led them to debacle after debacle
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
It always was only self-inflicted, everything what Intel ever faced and still faces today. They always blew it.
They had a industry-monopoly under their belt. Not just on a specific market, but a whole industry.
Top-Tie9959@reddit
Global foundries at least actually fabs external customer designs so really they're still ahead of Intel lol.
matthieuC@reddit
Well they bought a foundry to get a customer base and the know how.
Intel almost bought Tower Jazz but the deal didn't go through
imaginary_num6er@reddit (OP)
Someone as experienced and as accountable as Pat, should have seen from a mile away that the Tower Semiconductor acquisition would never go through if it required regulatory approval by China. Like it was insane that Intel's board couldn't see that as a real risk and even had to pay a breakup fee.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
Indeed. That's something Intel has been trying to archive since around 2007–2009 with their foundry.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
They for sure never had the brain to grasp the situation as a whole up until Gelsinger (who ended up knifing their most crucial core-business project), chasing engineers of the Royal Core-project out to make a business themselves (Beast Lake, also Cobra Core/Razor Lake).
Tan's tried cutting of fat (gutting the last remaining competence that way), seems to be like collateral now.
UnlikelyOpposite7478@reddit
Bold strategy to ask for customers before proving you can deliver.
work-school-account@reddit
Isn't this basically a catch-22?
Intel: We can't build new fabs until we have customers
Customers: We can't order Intel chips until they build new fabs
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
No, it actually really isn't … Since to this day and despite all their medial virtue signaling, Intel doesn't even offer actual PDKs for even their older processes on 14nm or let alone 22nm or older. Nothing.
See the cirlce-jerking Intel does here, by constantly blaming everyone but their own execution/incompetence?
So how are possibly interested foundry-clients and the big generous Fabless monsters are supposed to trust Intel, when not even mere unknown backstreet boys of industrial customers can get their stuff on age-old 22nm for like automotive stuff or other kind of sensory semi-devices?!
You ain't going to get the big fancy juicy highly sought-after year-long multi-billion contracts (without proving yourself on smaller ones beforehand!), just because you're Intel and detached from reality enough, to think, you're someone prominent, deserving special treatment … That's nuts!
Since even TSMC, Samsung and GlobalFoundries have to actually put actual WORK into getting their contracts!
NewKitchenFixtures@reddit
They announced a foundry 22nm for lower power / performance than their CPU core one. Like 10 years ago.
Did that actually go nowhere? It seemed like it would work for DDIC and the like.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
Never heard of anything like that. Did it made the news?
NewKitchenFixtures@reddit
https://www.eetimes.com/intel-unveils-10-22nm-processes/
Article is mostly about 10nm in 2017, but also specified a new foundry 22nm on FD-SOI.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
Thank you!! I'll dig into it. I remember that FD-SOI though.
jmlinden7@reddit
Intel no longer has a 22nm process so why would they have a PDK for it?
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
Says who? What's 22FFL then?
Intel even wants to have mature nodes (that's what they call 22nm) beyond 2026 well in to 2028.
Look on Intel's own slides from a couple of months ago! Mature and 14nm well into 2028.
jmlinden7@reddit
Your link doesn't mention 22nm, only 14nm in Ireland.
NamerNotLiteral@reddit
even reddit nerds can't figure out what's going on with Intel's processes
now imagine trying to sell your capabilities to a table of MBAs.
jmlinden7@reddit
I mean they did somehow land a customer for Intel 16 so they must have had some sort of PDK available for that process.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
Yes, and it went no-where. The U.S. Department of Defense was allegedly their Foundry’s ‘No. 1’ customer in '22, and (if milestones were to be met, which they obviously didn't managed to), would account of $3Bn USD/year …
Yet we know that Intel has zero significant customers, other than running test-chips for process-validation.
So if the DoD would still be a actual foundry-customer, Intel would actually have $3Bn/year in foundry-revenue …
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
Yes, it's basically a refined/tweaked 14nm, yet relaxed to 22nm density-levels – Or a refined/tweaked 22nm.
Also yes, the naming scheme is misleading or at least quite weird. At some point it was even considered being a 18nm-process, until marketing noticed, that it conflicts with 18A, and it was renamed into 22FFL.
FuelAccurate5066@reddit
Confidently wrong.
Candid_Report955@reddit
Take a look at Samsung's most recent quarterly results for semiconductors. Not good.
TSMC? Japan's government recently told their companies they're on their own when the invasion happens. TSMC should be partnering with any foreigner with a foundry right now and moving everything out of Taiwan.
CatimusPrime123@reddit
No chance Taiwan lets TSMC conspire with foreigners to hollow out its flagship industry.
Candid_Report955@reddit
TSMC wouldn't have any factories after China invades.
CatimusPrime123@reddit
If there is a war, both sides will try to avoid damaging TSMC facilities since it’s in their best interests to do so. TSMC’s fate is tied to Taiwan. It cannot make the call to leave even if it wants to.
Candid_Report955@reddit
The opposite is far more likely. As China decided the world must have Covid if China has Covid, the west will decide China will have no chips if the west can have no chips. It will be the beginning of a war, not the war itself.
nanonan@reddit
Around $300 million profit isn't good? I think Intel would be over the moon if their foundries were doing that each quarter. Your red scare nonsense isn't actually going to impact anything.
Candid_Report955@reddit
I've come to the conclusion that people on Reddit are mostly PR chatbots or else ate to many lead paint chips
"Samsung’s chip division down 94%, blames export restrictions and poor uptake of mature nodes
Memory chips only segment of company’s Device Solutions business that saw growth in the quarter"
Quatro_Leches@reddit
Unreal how incompetent they are
Exist50@reddit
That's not the problem though. Customers are waiting till Intel has competitive, easy to use nodes, and for them to demonstrate that they can deliver to a roadmap.
haloimplant@reddit
Easy to use is not something mentioned frequently in these public discussion but it comes up a lot on the engineering side. The way I heard it the fab was used to calling the shots on a captive design engineering team, that's not how customer relationships work heck it doesn't even work inside Intel anymore apparently.
Strazdas1@reddit
Sounds like Intel fabs are changing for the better.
work-school-account@reddit
And Intel (well, Intel under current leadership--Gelsinger was willing to throw money at the problem regardless, for better or for worse) is saying they can't commit to building up competitive, easy to use nodes until they have guaranteed customers.
That said, the fact that Intel is using TSMC for their own chips right now suggests the problem is beyond that.
Exist50@reddit
Well, they're at least saying they can't build more capacity. But yeah, the comments on 14A are not inspiring.
Intel's internal usage of TSMC is driven by the same concerns as external. The product teams have schedule and performance metrics they want to hit, and they don't want to spend extra on RnD to work around Intel Foundry's rough edges.
RepresentativeRun71@reddit
Gordon Moore is rolling over in his grave.
comperr@reddit
at this point they need to let US vote on the new fucking architecture they're going to put in their chips since they are REALLY GOOD at picking a BAD one lately. Maybe if we agreed on the chip design we'd be willing to fund their shitty factory
Strazdas1@reddit
who is we in this?
comperr@reddit
Everyone but you loser
Apprehensive-Box-8@reddit
Worked well for Samsung
Whazor@reddit
Why? Intel has enough other fabs available still.
JustARedditor81@reddit
But... Aren't they supposed to has secured already some government money?
Or is the money pending for some milestone
Or were we tax payers scammed by Intel?
ElementII5@reddit
With the state of 18A and 14A they could just as well contract Ford to build chips for them. The process has to work, if it doesn't even a government contract does not any good.
Strazdas1@reddit
Well, you contact Ford if you dontn want things to work so theres that.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
Intel could've been making bank just on automotive semis alone on their age-old 22nm ever since 2020.
Manufacturing automotive semis like electronic control-modules (ECMs), engine control-units (ECUs) or transmission control-modules even on age-old 32nm or even 65nm.
Now add any other kind of needed industry-stuff into the mix here, like telco-chips, industrial semis for traffic/transports electronics, all kinds of industrial communication-chips or any other kind of industrial semiconductors.
You don't need special processes for these like for high-current power-semis or stuff like that.
Yet Intel still refuses to do this, since it's considered to be beneath the ones living in Intel's high castle …
GHZPKAZ@reddit
intel would be competing with stm, nxp, renesas, analog devices, texas instruments, umc, tower, global foundries, and a whole bunch of chinese fabs. there's not really a market for them fabbing older nodes. the only value they couldve have gotten is learning how to be a foundry, and maybe developing the processes in order to sell it to those other companies for a hefty fee after getting them hooked onto the process.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
Well, yeah?! It's not that's exactly what Intel tries to archive since ages. Are you serious here?
… which is also something which might come in handy when trying to chase better foundry-competitors, yes!
GHZPKAZ@reddit
They could learn how to be a foundry on 28nm or on 3nm. why would they choose the former? at least with 3nm theyd have much less competition and can ask for much higher prices
not for leading edge nodes, no. working on planar cmos for companies that care more about reliability than performance doesnt help push the bleeding edge
I agree with you that intel should be offering its older nodes as a foundry service, especially when they just wrote off half a billion in old equipment for no reason, but i think you're overestimating just how easy and profitable it would be
Raikaru@reddit
That's literally their biggest problem with their foundries so i don't get why you're downplaying it
GHZPKAZ@reddit
Because it changes the calculation. They can learn how to be a foundry on 16nm nodes that wont make them any money, or they can learn how to be a foundry on 18A nodes that could potentially make them a lot of money
broknbottle@reddit
That would of been very valuable
ElementII5@reddit
That is a good point. It also would have been a really easy entry into the foundry business. But intel always got rid of their trailing edge nodes quite quickly.
But I think that especially car manufacturers are quite the penny pinchers and Intel would not have gotten any sales at the margins they would have liked.
It would have needed to be a strategic decision to get their feet wet in the foundry business. But I guess they didn't see the need for it until it was too late.
No-Relationship8261@reddit
It's signed but government isn't giving them money.
Another catch 22.
Government doesn't want to gı e them money because they are going bankrupt and they are going bankrupt because government doesn't give them money.
Alive_Worth_2032@reddit
Seems more like the government scammed Intel tbh and rug-pulled them by reducing their chips act allocation.
Also, most "government money handed to companies" comes in the form of tax breaks and credits. Not cash sent to their accounts. If you don't spend the money or have sales, you can't be the benefactor of those "handouts".
meshreplacer@reddit
CHIPs act was cash. Why should intel be entitled to taxpayer funded corporate welfare when they spent billions in share buybacks as part of the financial engineering to boost stock prices temporarily so that the C-suite bonuses would vest. They should have spent it on R&D. Since they chose to misallocate capital into non productive use the taxpayer should not be on the hook to pay for these mistakes.
If I spend my money in Vegas at the craps table and spent the mortgage payment money I would not get a taxpayer funded bailout and mortgage paid, I would end up losing the house.
broknbottle@reddit
The stock buybacks were necessary to maintain their total comp structure of lower salary in cash and use RSUs as golden handcuffs. Golden handcuffs are only golden if stock trends upwards or stays neutral (better be giving more in that bucket though).
Tech_Philosophy@reddit
They aren't morally entitled to it, rather it was strategic decision to boost domestic chip manufacturing in the event that Taiwan is invaded or other geopolitical instability puts the US at a disadvantage to get top level chips.
jeremiah_wright_@reddit
there are ways to do this (government spending billions in multiyear purchases of important chips) that don't involve giving companies corporate welfare. money is fungible and any capex you subsidize doesn't mean intel will spend more overall, just use your money to send shareholders a bigger buyback.
SimpleNovelty@reddit
Buying chips does not secure production in the US. There were many strings attached to ensure domestic production.
jeremiah_wright_@reddit
it absolutely does, if the requirement is they're made in the US
Iced__t@reddit
You are also not important enough to have any strategic benefit to national security, so...
Not saying Intel spent their money well (they clearly didn't), but trying to compare the value of a corporation to an individual is silly.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
Neither is Intel with their broken processes with no greater evidence of working conditions since years.
meshreplacer@reddit
If it is strategically important then instead of free money have them offer convertible shares that pay a yield and can be converted into stocks at a fixed price. That way it is not a free taxpayer hand out. Then ban share buybacks for a period of time as well.
jeremiah_wright_@reddit
the US government is notorious for this. they make you do something in exchange for a promise that they never fulfill in the end.
Quatro_Leches@reddit
Pretty sure they pause the grants because intel can’t deliver product successes
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
What a load of BS … No-one pulled the rug from under Intel here. Intel constantly sabotages themselves.
So please stop the phony narrative of muh "Mean government tries to starve poor Intel to death!!" …
If so (and it's the government pulling the rug here), then why is Intel basically the ONLY company, who …
Got its subsidy-package REDUCED and furthermore …
The ONLY company where the USG (rightfully) refused pay-outs after no milestones were met by Intel and Santa Clara's executive floor for months to a year?!
The U.S. government even WARNED Intel for months, that stalling procedures any further, may lead to them having their subsidy-package from the CHIPS & Science Act (at least) reduced and possible even forfeited as whole.
All that already took place under the OTHER administration PRIOR to Mister Big!
See for yourself … ManufacturingDive.com – Tracking CHIPS and Science Act awards
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
What a load of BS … No-one pulled the rug from under Intel here. Intel constantly sabotages themselves.
So please stop the phony narrative of muh "Mean government tries to starve poor Intel to death!!" …
If so (and it's the government pulling the rug here), then why is Intel basically the ONLY company, who …
Got its subsidy-package REDUCED and furthermore …
The ONLY company where the USG (rightfully) refused pay-outs after no milestones were met by Intel and Santa Clara's executive floor for months to a year?!
The U.S. government even WARNED Intel for months, that stalling procedures any further, may lead to them having their subsidy-package from the CHIPS & Science Act (at least) reduced and possible even forfeited as whole.
All that already took place under the FORMER administration PRIOR to the Imperial Orange!
nanonan@reddit
It was an adjustment following a $3 billion dollar contract they were awarded. The only rug pull here is Intel pulling their obligations which that funding required.
heickelrrx@reddit
Yeah since different party rule the current administration
TheJohnnyFlash@reddit
Intel dropped their own purse down the stairs with the products they've launched. That's the source.
Oxygen_plz@reddit
You really have no clue about the scale of problems they're in if you think few billions of USD is supposed to magically prop up the whole IFS.
Quatro_Leches@reddit
It’s 2025 and they have no customer design successes yet lmao let’s be real ifs is fucking toast
RandomFatAmerican420@reddit
Our tax payers were scammed by the government by refusing to tax Wall Street and the rich, while letting our only hope at having American manufacturing of the most strategic asset humanity has to offer die.
daikiki@reddit
Incredible to think Intel doesn't think it can fill its own pipeline. Spinning off your foundry is one thing, but doing it after you've failed for close to a decade to fab the things you're trying to make for your own company and then acting surprised when other people don't want to use your foundry is a whole other level of delusion.
And then they're gonna turn around and say their fab isn't viable if they can't get somebody else to commit to a foundry that can't even serve Intel's internal needs? What did they think was going to happen? Who was in that board room making these choices all along?
Strazdas1@reddit
The same board room that kicked out the CEO who wanted fabs.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
The same old criminal gang around Frank Yeary, who has this company in choke-hold since the 2000s.
SherbertExisting3509@reddit
Didn't Frank Yeary run a chain of hospitals into the ground?
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
I don't know, maybe. Let me steal from /u/dylan522p here;
Though this March, Frank will have been on Intel's board 16 years …
So Frank may have had a bit to do with why the patient got cancer in the first place.
Here's what Intel-stock writes about him;
kingwhocares@reddit
Oh yeah. They are done. They are gonna be selling their fabs to some Abu Dhabi company that never existed before and definitely not a way to skip sanctions for China and Russia.
Exist50@reddit
Why would China want to use these fabs?
kingwhocares@reddit
Because they can't get access to the most advanced TSMC fabs due to trade restrictions. Intel's 18A is better than TSMC's 4nm at minimum. China so far has only 6nm for domestic fabs.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
Intel hasn't even shown actual evidence of it working/existing.
kingwhocares@reddit
It's expected to perform better. It also has better transistor density than 3nm TSMC, thus it's minimum expectations.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit
10nm was expected to alos arrive in time, have higher density and beat TSMC. … and we know how that played out.
Exist50@reddit
If they can't get access to TSMC, why would they be able to get access to Intel fabs?
kingwhocares@reddit
It wouldn't be Intel fabs. It would be another company that bought Intel's fab business.
Exist50@reddit
And? Wouldn't change the export restrictions regardless of buyer.
kingwhocares@reddit
Not if they start opening fabs in Abu Dhabi
Exist50@reddit
Even then, US rules apply. Same as why TSMC can't sell to China despite fabbing in Taiwan.
NamerNotLiteral@reddit
The only other companies that would be buying Intel's fab business are companies that are actually fronts for the US DoD.
deonteguy@reddit
Oregon might be successful in finally driving Intel's manufacturing out of their state, and the left in Ohio is going to get a win even before they started. The political tides are turning. We're getting two wins.
sketchysuperman@reddit
Man what in the world are you talking about?
Exist50@reddit
This is a problem of Intel's making, not state politics.
deonteguy@reddit
How is it Intel's fault that jealous poor people in Ohio want them to die? This is just poor republicans being jealous of west coast high paying liberal jobs. They see this as a culture war. Eastern Oregon certainly does. They hate Portland for being so successful and having transit. They hate that so much.
Techhead7890@reddit
Have you ever thought man, that JD Vance guy knows what he's talking about... In fact, knows so much about what he's talking about, that it's not just a story but a construct used to get what he wants for himself?
Yeah, me neither.
nanonan@reddit
It's not the responsibility of Ohio to find Intel customers, that's on Intel.
deonteguy@reddit
No one claimed it was. Stop being an ass.
nanonan@reddit
What did you mean by this?
deonteguy@reddit
They're trying to block Intel from building a foundry and have successfully stalled them and made them waste money.
nanonan@reddit
You have a fundamental misunderstanding. Intel is the only one stalling the project.
Exist50@reddit
What on earth are you talking about?
mca1169@reddit
so much for the CHIPS act...
puffz0r@reddit
It's not looking good lmao, which company would bet the farm on putting their supply chain on a customer who basically is about to kick the bucket