Ethnocentrism is Stupid but I Support People's Right to Practice it.
Posted by RealNinjafoxtrot@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 62 comments
https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/return-to-the-land-whites-only-community-b2795213.html
A far-right ethnonationalist group that has set up a “whites-only” community in a remote part of the Ozarks in northeastern Arkansas is reportedly exploring the possibility of expanding north into Missouri.
Return to the Land (RTTL), which describes itself as a private membership association (PMA) for individuals with “traditional views and European ancestry,” opened its first community in Arkansas in October 2023 and is now considering entering a second state, likely near Springfield, according to NBC’s regional affiliate KSNT.
The group is opposed to mass immigration, multiculturalism and “forced integration” and reportedly does not welcome non-white, non-Christian or LGBT+ people, explaining that its members are seeking to “separate ourselves from a failing modern society” and return to pastoral living.
“You want a white nation? Build a white town?” RTTL’s co-founder Eric Orwoll asks in an X video promoting the initiative. “It can be done. We’re doing it.”
Return to the Land co-founder Eric Orwoll (Aarvoll/YouTube) RTTL’s flagship community spans approximately 150 acres of land, is home to 40 inhabitants, and features its own cabins, roads, wells, a community center, and a schoolhouse.
It was followed by a second site nearby that opened in January this year, with the group listing a further Ozarks site as upcoming and aspirations to move into the Appalachian mountains on its website.
Speaking to Sky News journalist Tom Cheshire – who visited RTTL’s first “fortress for the white race” and found a world of fresh goat’s milk, flute recitals, family kickball games and creek swimming – Orwoll expressed a nostalgia for the America of the 17th century encountered by the Virginia settlers.
“I would probably feel more comfortable there because I’m white and that’s the way this country was when my ancestors came there,” he said, overlooking the Native Americans soon to be displaced by the colonists.
thatguythereintex2@reddit
Seems like the should be practicing those “traditional views” in Europe. Native Americans want to practice their traditions as well but are being forced to integrate/ assimilate?
fungoidian@reddit
They have reservations and are not forced to integrate/assimilate is not like europeans have to win anything from assimilating natives historically, there was no good deal in that or anything to win from it
JasperTheWolf990@reddit
They literally were put into schools, erased of their culture, unable to speak their languages, unable to dress like they wanted, forced to become Christian, and have been denied their rights to their lands ever since they were taken from them
thatguythereintex2@reddit
Yeah that would be the “being forced” part.
natermer@reddit
Freedom of association includes, by necessity, the freedom of disassociation.
icyserene@reddit
The issue is we already have/had places like this in our country and they’ve lasted literal centuries. They don’t see their own punishment.
natermer@reddit
are you sure? You've ever been to one of those places?
Turbulent-Phone-8493@reddit
Amish
icyserene@reddit
Yes, racist towns definitely exist(ed) in the U.S. and up until the civil rights movements when states had their hands forced by the federal government many people were limited. There’s a reason this country is a mess over race. I don’t leave my neck of the woods but I don’t disbelieve POC who say some former sundown towns are still unpleasant to be in. There are serious concerns about the Ozarks in particular even to the modern day. Locals squabble over it in Reddit sometimes.
The region they’re placing their settlements in isn’t exactly known for its love of massive government and federal power. So assuming if massive government can’t fix every racist town, not having massive government doesn’t seem to fix it much either. I really don’t expect any positive change from these people unless they get lazy with their self-government.
RealNinjafoxtrot@reddit (OP)
What do you think should be done about them?
icyserene@reddit
I mean, plenty has already been done about them too. The federal government has traditionally wielded power like crazy to make local communities stop behaving the way they like in racial segregation, and tons of once severely racist communities are now more functional, wealthy and diverse communities.
I am not actually sure if the civil rights movements would’ve proceeded the way it had if the federal government had respected the local governments, and I don’t really know what the U.S. would look like today if they had tolerated these local communities and tried to move around them. I don’t know the libertarian take on the massive state power in the civil rights movement either. But I suspect if the federal government had ignored these communities they wouldn’t have had much incentive to change.
Hence why I don’t think these settlements will join the rest of society in denouncing racism when their communities are poor and undereducated. On the contrary, they would embolden racism between themselves and their children without any intervention. I don’t think they’ll expand that much more, but for the purposes of this exercise, the more they buy land and build properties like schools, lodgings (that under federal law must be accessible to all races) and etc, the more lines are being crossed between private property and public, like a company town.
RealNinjafoxtrot@reddit (OP)
No. To keep this simple. If you buy a house with your own money, you own it and you get to decide who can come and go there. If you decide that you only want your family members to live/visit there you are essentially discriminating againts the rest of the world & government shouldn't force you to open it up to everyone in the name of inclusiveness.
Same principle applies here. If it is a public place & the government "owns" it then no one should/can tell another person they have no right to be there. So in short, exclusion is ok on private property but on so called public property no.
icyserene@reddit
But they’re not buying a house or two and that’s the end of it. They’re purposefully creating an entire planned community with a schoolhouse, cabins, roads, community center, and other accommodations. The more buildings and land they put in makes it more public like a growing company town. Legally speaking company towns might be privately owned but they don’t have all the rights of a private homeowner (see Marsh v. Alabama).
RealNinjafoxtrot@reddit (OP)
Yes. As a wise man once said "Reality is something you run into when your beliefs are false". If the US government allowed full on freedom of association/disassociation, it would allow people to test their racial ideas & give them the opportunity to realise how flawed they are.
Mediocre_Maize256@reddit
Or it would lead to tribalism of the type which the middle east and Africa are still fighting.
fungoidian@reddit
And you are not tribalist? Aren't you a primate as well? Lol
RealNinjafoxtrot@reddit (OP)
There is no universal truth but I am a primate which is which?
fungoidian@reddit
Both whiches are correct.
RealNinjafoxtrot@reddit (OP)
That fighting is part of the reason why a lot of us Africans are starting to realise that tribalism is stupid and also just because your skin colour is the same as mine it doesn't mean we will get along.
fungoidian@reddit
What is flawed in having a self segregated town? Lol, nothing flawed will happen.
natermer@reddit
Pretty much.
The standard response to government trying to squash stupidity is for the stupid to double down.
"They wouldn't be coming after us if there wasn't truth in what we are saying" is a common sentiment.
Knight_of_Ohio@reddit
To be honest, the self sufficiency/community aspect is pretty cool. I agree with you, if they want to not be around certain people, they have the right to not be around them
Thanos_354@reddit
I will be not at all surprised when people start escaping the community in a few years.
fungoidian@reddit
For what?
Thanos_354@reddit
Things like mental disability and queerness aren't really tied to genetics. They will exist in all communities, including this one. This commune is against "degenerate ideology", which in layman's terms means that they don't believe that things like autism or queer people exist. They believe that they can pray the gay away.
Just as we saw with many cult or religious communities, some people will see the flaws and lies of the system. They'll also see that those who rebelled didn't have a good ending. So, they'll just leave.
fungoidian@reddit
Well, nobody is forcing you to stay there if something is bad for you. Simple as that
Thanos_354@reddit
Suuuuuuuuure. Because that's how it worked in every other isolated community built on fanatic xenophobia.
fungoidian@reddit
What do you mean sure? You just leave it
Thanos_354@reddit
The real life cases that are similar to what I'm talking about show that's it's not as simple as "just leave"
PlotTwistBabee@reddit
Dude, WTF? Freedom of belief is one thing, but this is legit just blatant racism and exclusion. Low-key terrifying that in 2023 we're rolling back to 1623. Just goes to show, hate and ignorance don't vanish, they just find a new zipcode. SMH.
Spiritual_Coast_Dude@reddit
I think this person is a bot, barely any post history, 1 month old account, saying it's 2023 when it's 2025 and most of their comments have been deleted.
fungoidian@reddit
Full of capitalist bots which try to brainwash people in accepting cosmopolitan societies to make profits the ultra rich from cheap labour.
sards3@reddit
People have the right to be racist and to exclude others on that basis. You don't have to like it, but you have no right to interfere with it.
RealNinjafoxtrot@reddit (OP)
I'd rather racists have freedom of speech/expression. No amount of government legislation can remove racism from someone's mind. If anything it does the opposite.
DuragJeezy@reddit
That’s great until the racists make their way into governing institutions. In this way they at least govern themselves and can’t enact their racism negatively on others.
bravehotelfoxtrot@reddit
If that causes meaningful problems, then the governing institution simply has too much power and influence.
You always have to assume that when those socially constructed levers of power exist, it is inevitable that shitty people will attain that power and use it to disastrous ends. People who have no qualms about being pieces of shit and fucking over others for personal gain are more likely to take office, generally speaking. The larger government becomes, the more this rings true.
Same goes when people bring up “religion in government.” The actual problem isn’t that politicians have weird views. The problem is that government is large and influential enough for their weird views to matter.
RealNinjafoxtrot@reddit (OP)
I like this - TL:DR Government should not have too much power so that even if racists or any other ists with malice were to take power, they wouldn't have enough leeway to cause problems to the ordinary person. Like we have now.
rottenjake@reddit
If you could change one thing about the way our government operates what would you do? What guardrails would you put in place that would work to shrink the power of the government?
natermer@reddit
Isn't it better to have these people self-isolate from the rest of society?
icyserene@reddit
I am not a libertarian and usually don’t comment on other ideology’s subs but I had to comment here. These ethno nationalist communities seem inherently violent because of their opposition to everyone not like them. Imagine being a POC who didn’t know this was an ethnostate in the middle of America, and accidentally got stranded in that town because your car broke down. It also escalates if they’re an expanding contagious state of their own, like they’re trying to do here. Like we’re going to have “no go” zones for POC in America? Sure, I guess we already had those in our country, and maybe attachment to the idea of a singular free America is not really libertarian because big government, but like…
I don’t know how you can ethnically force diversity in these places either other than having a government that aggressively prosecutes these people, but tolerating these people and turning the other way is also full of disadvantages, as Jim Crow and sundown town era have shown.
fungoidian@reddit
Lol, why would you allow your car to be broken in a white only community if you are black? Think a bit further and you will not have this problem. Why I mever heard of the self segregated US communities of any other races than whites to be far right and in the headlines? Why are so much people interested in what a small localized community does if you are so libertarian? Libertarian until you agree with me.
Spiritual_Coast_Dude@reddit
Black people, Asian people or anyone other group has the same rights as these White people to do the same thing. Historically there were many Black nationalist types, such as Malcolm X or Marcus Garvey, who wanted Black people to return to Africa or to have their own Black communities/nations.
Some Black people have already done the exact same thing as these White people and created privately owned communities. I don't see why the justification for this is somehow different when the community is Black-owned vs White-owned and I think both are perfectly fine.
DuragJeezy@reddit
Because the history of enslavement and persecution, both privately and publicly through government actions, is not the same. One is creating communities out of safety based on historical precedence, the other is doing it out of racism and possibly even white supremacy.
RealNinjafoxtrot@reddit (OP)
Both should be left alone to do as they wish
RealNinjafoxtrot@reddit (OP)
I understand your concerns and they are reasonable. However we should not forget that this is private property and if you find yourself on a violent person's property even under the current laws in a lot of places you are at their mercy.
People like this usually have clear signage too that if you pay attention you must keep out.
Jim Crow laws were allowed by the government. A truly libertarian government shouldn't make laws that disadvantage other members of the community over others as that would be a violation of the Non-Aggresion Principle but with private property that has been legitimately procured, people should be free to do as they please and of course guided by the NAP even though getting stranded while wearing the wrong skin colour is enough for prejudiced individuals to attack you.
The_Last_Hobbit@reddit
There’s also a black community doing the same thing. Freedom, Georgia.
RealNinjafoxtrot@reddit (OP)
I have never heard of it. Will look it up but as a black person myself I can almost guarantee you that I don't wanna be a part of it because such societies tend to be collectivist and they'll most likely want me to fit into their prescribed idea of what it means to be black. Another thing is you will almost never hear the mainstream media complaining about it if it's black people doing it... That being said, ethnocentrism is still dumb.
fungoidian@reddit
Can't you say the same about forced cosmopolitan societies? We are all humans after all, a collective.
fungoidian@reddit
So if any other races can have it, then whites can have it too by the same logic. Nothing wrong to observe them how will develope over time
The_Last_Hobbit@reddit
Seconded. As a mutt, it all makes me feel excluded and unwanted.
RealNinjafoxtrot@reddit (OP)
Lol "sorry bro we can't let you into our black only community because you're a couple of shades lighter"
Now that I think about it, white supremacists do that same kinda thing like "If your ancestors were from the Iberian peninsula or southern Europe then you're not white enough, you can't join our community"
thatguythereintex2@reddit
I just want someone to ask him if he is still bringing in money from Chaturbate? I guess he thought that his viewers wouldn't recognize him with his clothes on.
Ya_Boi_Konzon@reddit
"If you want a white nation build a white town"
Well I've got to say, this is a helluva lot better than using the State to take over and enforce white nationalism on everyone else. Yay voluntarism ig
Easy_Magician_925@reddit
Sounds like a boring place though.
Ehronatha@reddit
What do you think about currently existing ethno-nation states like Japan and almost every European country? All ethnocentric and therefore stupid, or do they get a pass?
Anen-o-me@reddit
Maybe so, but they're still bad and despicable people who I refuse to associate with.
bubonickbubo@reddit
Practically ignoring factors of race in society is like breaking history, these people probably have less racial intentions than you think, more just limited perspective on the world.
RealNinjafoxtrot@reddit (OP)
And they should be left unmolested in a free society.
skye_commoner@reddit
I don’t see anything controversial about this. On the contrary I respect their wishes and admire their sacrifice and hard work to do what they think will improve the quality of their lives. Live and let live.
im_learning_to_stop@reddit
You can't have an ethnostate without violating NAP.
Likestoreadcomments@reddit
I generally agree with you. They should have the right, but it’s stupid.
RealNinjafoxtrot@reddit (OP)
When Libertarians say I think people should be allowed to practice ethnocentrism and not be forced to associate with people that they don't want to, ethnocentrists take it to mean Libertarianism = racism is cool.
First let me say this. I hate communism because I am from Zimbabwe and I saw what trying to centrally plan an economy can do. We had giga inflation and our government was printing trillion dollar notes. All because our government tried to create a black people Utopia.
I have also seen a lot of Westerners become interested in Rhodesia lately and they think it was a White man's Utopia. Well fact of the matter is that country went from being a white minority ruled authoritarian governed 'piece of Europe in Africa' to a commie/socialist failed state. I would know because I was born and raised there. I don't trust the government precisely because of that. What a lot of people fail to realise is that Rhodesia was doomed to fail because it was based on shaky foundations. They had artificially cheap labour because the government mandated that they pay black employees at below market rate. All this to say that ethnocentric collectivism is a trap whether you're black or you're white.
I moved from Zimbabwe and I lived in South Africa for a while and there is a place there called Orania based on a similar idea and I think in a Libertarian country people should be free to form such communities.
I have recently discovered Austrian economics through Tom Sowell, then I've read some Rothbard and Hayek and I am fast becoming radicalised. Long live the NAP.