> worship an idol
> “well its ok, Muhammad did it”
> turn around said idol 7 times, imitating the pagans who went around their idols 7 times (once for each planet)
> “we only worship one god” + “do not imitate non muslims”
Heatstroke induced religion
I feel like for Muslims, the way Makkah gets treated is extremely disheartening and infuriating. But like, what do you do against a monarchy that is obsessed with money and power? It's not like we can go ahead and demand better management. There's already so much political infighting.
Sometimes it feels like Makkah is just an afterthought for the KSA. And the clock tower is representative of everything that our religion warns against. Why would we want the Holiest of places overshadowed by a hotel of all things?
I mean the place is quite clean and made of marble, i have been. The kaba will always remain clean, irregardless the buildings next to it are wrong; the Saudi government is a dog for israel and would have helped our ummah in palestine, and the armenian Christian’s in palestine aswell.
Isn't that the ultimate result of a monarchy/oligarchy that justifies itself through religion?
Indipendently of a person being spiritual or not, there is no way anyone sane believes that powerful monarchs/oligarchs won't abuse the belief and culture they supposedly care about for personal profit.
Like, I understand people living around there, it's not like they can live that good by bitching about the government, but you would expect people living abroad to care about their holy site.
If the Santa Sede in Rome was crowded with hotels around you can bet that plenty of Italians would be bitching about it endlessly. It's already a lot that some people accept not religious tourists lmao
You're correct in saying the powers that be will always justify their abuse of power using religion. And most Muslims know this when they think about our Holy sites.
Unfortunately for us, any sort of resentment or criticism can be met with a bonesaw (IYKYK). Normal everyday practising Muslims care and want better treatment for these sites, but there's a genuine fear of silencing, perhaps even from their own country's government. You can't deny the power and influence oil money has now.
And that's the saddest part of it really.
I am actually kinda envious of any kind of spirituality people believe in (I am Italian, I grew up as Catholic and was quite dedicated, but I moved to agnosticism later in life), but at least not caring about something as specific as a holy site means there is one less way my government can sucks ass
Been there, the tower really weirded me out
Everything else he said isn't true however. Streets are not dirty. It is overcrowded by normal tourism standard (oh hey, pilgrimage site for 1.4 billion people, how surprising). Normal prices than local tourist spots in my country too.
The thing about the Saudis is kinda true tho.
With its importance and its location within an ultra wealthy nation, you would think it would be one of the best run tourist sites in the world. Instead, if you go on that pilgrimage your chances of dying from heatstroke or literally being trampled skyrocket.
Over 1.8 million went there last year. Most of them staying for 2 weeks, planning on accomodation for them so they specifically don't suffer heatstroke is pretty hard tbf with them being mostly older people, even with them spraying/handing water. 1300 makes up about 0.07% of the total.
I'm more shocked that they didnt take a page from Catholicism and make it an independent state in that case. Is that why it seems like the Sunnis are always shitting on the Shia and Sufis?
It used to be run by Hashemites from the 10th century up until the 1920s. Lawrence of Arabia/the other British powers basically negotiated the same pieces of land to multiple people in the region. Saudis got Mecca and the rest of Arabia, the Hasmeites were given Jordan as a consultation prize.
The Holy See has a unique history, it wasn't just made independent for funsies. As the Roman Empire lost Italy, the city of Rome itself was left in disarray, and the Pope was a local authority who ended up taking on more and more responsibilities in governing the city (and then surrounding areas) almost by accident, simply because someone needed to do it.
It should be noted that all Christianity has at least some degree of separation between the church and state as a general rule. Even where the patriarch is very tied to or subject to secular power, he is still a separate person from the king.
In Islam the roles of high priest and king are traditionally united in one person and the religion reverses a priestly aristocracy, or aristocratic priesthood if you prefer.
Except in the Papal States, the Pope was essentially both head of state and church. Sure, it wasn’t on purpose but it happened. Canon law specifically calls out shit for where the church has secular authority for this reason.
Obvioysly, but the point is that is's not only a unique circumstance, it's not at all the norm for "Christendom." The Pontifex Maximus is the ecclesiastical authority, the Emperor the secular one, or with time all the various kinds and princes of different realms which collectively made up Christendom. Even the rule over the Papal State became something tied to the separation of church and state by becoming a power base for the Pope where he could assert his independence from the Emperor or secular rulers. Rome could thus also become a neutral ground for the international system. While many kings and emperors would try to bring the church/pope under their authority and occasionally they even succeeded in doing so, in the long-run it became practical for everyone to support and protect the independence of the Pope just so their rivals wouldn't have control over the church.
In any case even in medieval kingdoms, the church owned land and could thus have serfs, or certain territories might have been governed by a "prince-bishop" so it's not like the church having some secular authority was that strange. The separation of church and state, while it existed in the middle ages, was a lot fuzzier than the clean-cut idea we have of it now, and needs to be understood in a context where secular states still had and generally enforced an official religion.
Muslims who completed the pilgrimage can add the title Haji or Hajah to their name. You think a creep who grabbed a girl's butt during the pilgrimage has "cleansed their souls of worldly sins"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajj
The Hajj is an annual practice when Muslim brotherhood is on display and their solidarity with fellow Muslim people and submission to God (Allah) is fulfilled.[7][8] The Hajj is taken by Muslims to cleanse their souls of all worldly sins, which connotes both the outward act of a journey after death and the inward act of good intentions.
well yeah I agree, and I don't think someone who even touches or harasses a woman sexually during hajj will get it accepted by god. But it's still a much less frequent rate than most large gatherings where it isn't really that big if an issue(they obviously still need to be prosecuted legally though)
also if you're not muslim you are not even allowed in. I ve seen stories of people who worked on that big building with the clock that had to convert to even get in and build it. That makes the talent pool very much smaller to do innovative stuff around there ocfourse.
# 1. House of Khadijah (Prophet Muhammad’s first wife)
* Believed to be where the Prophet lived for nearly 30 years.
* **Demolished in 1989**, reportedly replaced by public toilets.
# 2. Birthplace of Prophet Muhammad
* Once marked by a library built in the 1950s.
* There were proposals to demolish it or drastically change its use, and access is now highly restricted.
# 3. Dar al-Arqam
* The secret house where early Muslims gathered.
* Also reportedly demolished during expansion works.
# 4. Ottoman-era architecture
* Ottoman columns and decorations in the Grand Mosque were removed in modernization efforts, though a few were reinstalled due to backlash.
# 5. Ajyad Fortress
* An Ottoman-era castle overlooking the Kaaba.
* **Destroyed in 2002** to make space for the Abraj al-Bait complex (the large clock tower).
a list i put out from Chatgpt to point out they have been destroying stuff
I still honestly find it pretty gross that non-Muslims aren’t allowed in Mecca.
Like I fully understand only allowing Muslims to go near the Kaaba. But the whole city? Definitely excessive.
I know technically the whole city is supposed to be holy. But you don’t see other religions pulling that shit with their holy cities
Based Muslims saving non Muslims from heatstroke by banning them from the city. This is almost as good as free unsecured bungee jumping for gays in Gaza
It's because it's too crowded. They can't even handle it with 'only' Muslims coming. You expect them to handle such a place with even more people coming?
Case in point: The holy shrines in Karbalaa and Najaf, Iraq, and in Mashad, Iran, are open to everyone. They'll even give you food all day, and you might find someone who'll let you crash at their place
Although you should note these places are only holy for Shia Muslims, not all Muslims
The tower thing is extremely disheartening. That amount of hubris and pride is every thing Islam stands against. But as a muslim Idk if you can do much, they can ban you from visiting that place; they are not afraid of kill. Remember what happend to Khashoggi, they killed him in trukey chopped his body and disposed of it.
I will never not laugh at the fact they put a scammer supermarket and a little peepee tower next to their holiest site.
It is maybe the most blatant example of desert people's incredible ego and fragility.
"I sell the cheapest rugs ! I have the fastest car ! I am the biggest spice dealer ! I have built my dick tower next to the holiest site !"
It reminds us of all the money they waste in Dubai etc. to live in giant mansions with 100 lamborghinis on an artificial island and whatnot.
Once oil gets obsolete in a century or so, the infrastructure will go to ruins and they will become pearl divers again like it was all a dream.
They've got fat stacks parked in the West, just vibing on interests and dividend yield, while wagecuck Americans anon grind 9 to 5 on McPay to pay for that, thinking they're winning .. what's a joke
It actually isn't, Muslims are encouraged to either find islamic banks that don't give you interest or you put it in a normal bank and donate the interest to the poor(no good deeds for this though as keeping the money is a sin)
\>Saudi Arabia is **committing to invest approximately $600 billion in the United States** over the next **four years**, as announced at the U.S.–Saudi Investment Forum hosted in Riyadh on **May 13, 2025**, by Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman and former U.S. President Donald Trump
Call it Murabaha, call it Alibaba, hell call it Habibi Finance™ or something, at the end of the day, you’re just slapping halal stickers on the same capitalist scam
Direct investment isn't haram, interest/preferences shares are haram though. I don't know what they're investing in exactly but yeah it can still be haram.
I don't know why you westerners think that everything any middle eastern country does is following islam to the tee
You paid for the sins of cheap Playstation games in the 2000's! You think you could just burn copies of jedi power battles for free?? And sell them in malls?
You will drown in A&W
Not sure who OP's source is, but this is not true.
I don't know much about the building but streets are 10x cleaner than your run of the mill San Francisco ghetto. Sure, more people means more dirty streets but its cleaned more often than not.
But is it any better tho when the thing you compare it to is a ghetto? I expect a lot of places to atleast be cleaner than a ghetto.
And this is one of Islams most important sites as well
Islam supposed to be a city-dweller/trader religion. This is what happens when you give infinite money and free reign to some backwards ass nomad bedouins.
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