Chinese CPUs are closing the gap on AMD — next-gen Zhaoxin chips feature 96 cores, 12-channel DDR5 memory, and 128 PCIe 5.0 Lanes
Posted by Helpdesk_Guy@reddit | hardware | View on Reddit | 126 comments
WorriedSmile@reddit
They will probably reach or slightly exceed Zen 1+ & Sky Lake arch levels by this generation.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
You wish! Even the Zhaoxin KX-7000 processor already reaches ~80% IPC of Zen 2.
Their cores reached 83% of a i7-9700K's IPC – Five years ago already!
RRgeekhead@reddit
At lower frequencies. It's easier to do high IPC at lower frequencies.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
No, that's not how IPC works – Congrats for buying into Intel's marketing though!
IPC in itself is a fairly constant metric and doesn't really change over all the CPU's frequency-range.
What you mean when using IPC while talking about performance, is IPS here, which boosts the actual through-put the higher the CPU is pushed in frequency – Intel's Core-architecture's IPC-improvements were pretty much non-existent for several Gens in a row, yet performance-increases were solely increased by a higher IPS through mere higher clocks.
Also, Steamroller's as well as Excavator's IPC were already WELL ABOVE that of any former 'dozer-class architecture like Bulldozer (Zambezi-core) or BD's follow-up Piledriver (Vishera-core), yet Steamroller as well as Excavator were *in praxi* still slower due to crippling cache-sizes.
There's that
IPC, and then there'sIPS. IPC or I/c stands for Instructions per (Clock-) Cycle IPS or I/s → Instructions per SecondThe letter one IPS, is often (falsely) used synonymously with and for actual Single-thread-Performance.
Rule of thumb …
IPC does *not* scale with frequency, but is rather fixed (within margins, depends on context and kind of (code-) instructions, you got the idea) – IPS is the fixed value of the IPC in a time-relation or at a time-figure, pretty much like the formula
IPC×t, to put it simply.Simply put, IPC is like torque whereas IPS meanwhile would be high speed.
200Rats@reddit
I can't comment on either of the architectures in question. However, the comment you are replying too is most likely referring to the trade offs of certain design decisions. For example, having fewer pipeline stages makes it easier to achieve higher IPC due to having to flush less work on a failed branch prediction, while at the same time having more stages makes achieving higher clocks easier.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
Fair enough!
QazCetelic@reddit
This is an x86 CPU right?
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
Yup, x86. I also wish we'd see more RISC-V coming to live …
The Western press likes to turn a blind eye on a lot of what happens in Far East, especially technologically.
diet_fat_bacon@reddit
What I see is that a big portion of westerners think the chinese as "incapable" of catching up because they are "inferior".
No country can catch up years of leading in this field in a decade but they are doing it step by step.
Even if they cannot do bleeding edge performance yet they can just do horizontal scaling.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
Oh yes, the blinders of arrogance sit tight at all times!
diet_fat_bacon@reddit
That should be a wake-up call. More investment in education and public research than military spending.
Beautiful-Fold-3234@reddit
Do they have a domestic supplier for euv lithography whatever machines? Or are they able to get asml machines?
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
ASML is offering EUVL-equipment, yet Nikon (and partly Canon) is also in the game for DUV-Lithography.
I don't know if restrictions are in place of those machines, yet you also can get 7nm-class with DUVL only.
kwirky88@reddit
These cpus aren’t for us to purchase so anyone who thinks these are to “increase competition” is naive. These CPUs are being developed so china doesn’t depend on Taiwan, which they have political conflict with. These developments won’t reduce cpu prices for the western market at all.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
These CPUs aren’t for purchase, but these are to “increase competition” to the point of sales eventually reaching nil.
Yes, exactly. It's even worse, since it makes them no longer having to rely on Western technology at all.
It makes them completely independent of Western tech, to the point of outright REPLACING the Western supplier.
LAwLzaWU1A@reddit
Why is it bad that China wants to become independent from western tech? And by western I mean US, since I think they still rely on things like ASLM for the machines.
I feel like this was inevitable when the US started trying to kneecap China by imposing export controls and sanctions.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
It isn't bad per se, just that Western companies have to face the consequences of political decisions.
The whole export-controls thingy and abuse of it, was a disaster to happen – Yes, absolutely. It could only backfire.
It seems they're already way less reliant on ASML's tech these days, and are pretty much able to have 7nm-class.
UnusualSpecific7469@reddit
They tried their best to buy many ASML DUV machines before US imposed the ban, that's how they managed to produce 7nm chips.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
That's UnusualSpecific! Just kidding. Yes, they bought as much machines as the market was offering.
Even Intel directly sold lithography-equipment and such DUVL-machines wholesale to Chinese manufacturers.
mediandude@reddit
The suicidal Western political decision has been to integrate China into the world markets as much as it happened. China should have been forced to stand on its own much more from the start. Or leave from Tibet.
puffz0r@reddit
Western countries: "You can't buy our stuff! Sanctions!"
China: "Ok, we'll make our own"
You: *surprised Pikachu face*
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
You forget about the crucial kicker here …
Western countries: "Our Chinese market-sales broke off, which is cuttently like ~29% of revenue"
Also the West: "We can't really explain, why we have collapsing revenue though!"
mestar12345@reddit
And as we all know, the first rule of marketing is: Once you have a product in a limited market, never, ever, ever, try to expand into other markets. Intel will be safe for years and years.
TenderfootGungi@reddit
They are so the US and EU cannot block them from having the latest technology. Their goal is to lead in tech. They are throwing billions at it and catching up fast.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
No, their goal was never to compete insofar to lead in tech. Their goal was to replace us. Obviously, it worked.
RHINO_Mk_II@reddit
Waiting for the obvious part.
logosuwu@reddit
Obvious delusional is what he is
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
So you're willfully ignoring all the collapsing revenue at Western companies then since this all started?
dfv157@reddit
Go ahead and willfully ignore the general collapse of the Chinese economy too
Plank_With_A_Nail_In@reddit
Chinese economy grew 5.3 percent in the last quarter. China's GDP per head is still only $13K they still have a long long way to grow before the doom mongers on YouYubes hot takes matter.
The doom monger "economists" on YouTube aren't close to right lol.
logosuwu@reddit
Apart from YMTC which is producing an objectively superior product which other chinese hardware manufacturer have managed to collapse the market?
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
So you're willfully ignoring all reports collapsing revenue at Western companies then?
Intel's China-business was once 29% of revenue, it's basically gone. Others had also sales collapsing.
So yes, Far East is well underway to replace tech from Western companies with their own, you ignoramus.
NoRecommendation2761@reddit
>These CPUs are being developed so china doesn’t depend on Taiwan
It is based on VIA's x86 patents. VIA is a taiwanese company and x86 is an IP of American Compnaies, Intel and AMD. I guess it doesn't matter to Chinese since they don't really respect IP of other countires anyway.
iBoMbY@reddit
VIA is part of the Zhaoxin JV, and they get good money for their license. You people really need to get your propaganda straight.
JimmyJuly@reddit
OH! That’s what happened to Cyrix! They were a big deal 20 years or so ago. I haven’t thought about them in forever. But IP
NoRecommendation2761@reddit
'You people' don't get it, do you? It doesn't matter China designs a x86 chip based on x86 patents of a Taiwanese company in China. VIA is still a Taiwnese company and x86 is ultimately owned by Intel & AMD. Designing a x86 chip in China with a jv with a Taiwanese company doesn't make China any independent of a Taiwanese copmany nor American influence.
FYI, Intel only allows VIA to sell x86 processors under very specific circumstances for a period of time since Intel owns x86 and VIA needs Intel's patents such as as extensions more than Intel needs VIA's patents. No wonder VIA never gave Intel a serious competition even during its heyday.
If 'you people' stop listening to your own state's propaganda and start listening to common sense, 'you people' would understand how absurd your state's propaganda is. lol.
NeedsMoreGPUs@reddit
Horse apples.
VIA does not have a time limit on their license. The license they obtained when they merged Cyrix and Centaur is perpetual. The only license that had a time limit was the one for Intel's bus logic, which VIA redesigned and continues to use as their "V4 Bus". What you are mistaking for a time limit was a settlement agreement for certain x86 patent rights, which expired more than a decade ago. In the time since that expiration date Zhaoxin was formed, Centaur developed new x86-64 architectures with newer AVX2 and AVX512 instruction sets, and iterations of those architectures has continued on to the announcement made this past week.
AMD and Intel are locked in a cross-license stalemate and VIA holds the third spot at the table by right. Nobody can bully any other member out of the triumvirate.
alonjit@reddit
they, some of them, probably do. but it costs nothing to boast on the internet how "china numba 1" .
reddit is chinese owned too, btw. which is why se keep seeing so much garbage with "china did this, china did that and they're gonna got to mars next, just you see".
bots, paid trolls, chinese nationalists, etc. it is what china does.
The_Countess@reddit
Their last few CPU's were made using a TSMC process though.
I can't find what this one is suppose to be made on.
Weekly-Dish6443@reddit
Isn't Zhaoxin the brand that bought ryzen 1 floorplan to design cpu/itinerations upon?
Xtergo@reddit
I'd be more worried as intel than AMD
dopadelic@reddit
So many comments on tomshardware saying it's stolen tech. They don't need to steal it when top talent is going to China.
There have been so many reports of star engineers from top companies such as ASML, TSMC transferring over to Chinese companies. It's not surprising given much of the semiconductor workforce are ethnically Chinese and would switch sides when seeing the sabotage US is conducting to curtail China's rise.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
Exactly! Money talks … and it you can support even a morally sound undertaking doing so, what's more to ask?
Since unlike the Western hemisphere, who teaches h8-ta on themselves day in, day out, the Far East still has something like a sense of national identity.
SycomComp@reddit
At this point thanks to idiots around the world sending their stuff to be manufactured in China they will have the upper hand because they have all the money and tech to make this stuff.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
Well, it's not that Intel has been actually offering a viable foundry-business lately, didn't they?
It was mostly show for getting their hands on free billions of tax-payers' money through subsidies, and that's it.
jonermon@reddit
I’m wondering for how long western companies will be able to depend on their technology advantage. Every time China gets into a market seriously western analysts wax poetic about how much ground they need to make up to truly be competitive and every time China manages to catch up and then surpass. I understand cutting edge semiconductor manufacturing is far more difficult to break into than many of these other fields but I think constantly countering “with china is too far behind to be a real threat” is underselling the Chinese governments ability to effectively redirect capital and resources towards the continual improvement of these production processes in a way that has shown over and over again to allow for them to rapidly dominate new markets.
WorstChineseSpy@reddit
People always forget that 1 out of 5 humans are Chinese.
mediandude@reddit
And every 1 out of 4 ppms of the first 20ppm of CO2 emissions before the onset of industrial revolution were Chinese as well.
WorstChineseSpy@reddit
China had 1/3 of the worlds population before the industrial revolution so I guess China was always green huh thanks for the new information.
mediandude@reddit
If your 1/3 claim is true, then at least 1/3 of the first 20ppm of CO2 emissions were Chinese. Because cultivating rice created a lot of greenhouse gases.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
Not that long, if they keep wanting to enter Chinese markets for juicy dollars, only to basically drop the technology there.
Marcus_The_Sharkus@reddit
If it’s anything like the GPUs they are making it’s a pretty wide gap they need to close.
SuperDuperSkateCrew@reddit
GPU’s are much harder to make than CPU’s
dustydinkleman01@reddit
I’m a microchip designer this is not true
Famous_Wolverine3203@reddit
GPU software and drivers might be. But GPUs are incredibly parallel so making them is way easier compared to CPUs where core performance matters a lot.
Chudsaviet@reddit
No, I don't think so.
SteakandChickenMan@reddit
Source?
JRAP555@reddit
The front end sure, but best case scenario it’s a wash. CPU’s have far more different blocks of IP then GPU’s
kingwhocares@reddit
They already got up to RTX 4060 performance in benchmarks with 6nm.
StarskyNHutch862@reddit
They didn’t mention the gaps a couple thousand miles with a lava flow in the middle.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
That gap is way smaller than people imagine – Zhaoxin's CPUs IPC was already ~80 IPC of a 9700K several years ago …
nanonan@reddit
They are aiming for a reliable domestic supply, not leading edge performance.
FarConversational@reddit
From what little I know from other news, the Chinese are not even close to being competitive. However the rate at which they close the gap is nothing to dismiss about.
Just look at how their smartphone industry closed the gap, or better yet, their electric car industry.
UlteriorMotive66@reddit
Just imagine the model numbers of these chips some 4-5 generations up in the future, KH-100,000 or KH-200,000 etc 🤣🤣
amwes549@reddit
And how many years behind will the cores be performance-wise? They'll close the gap this decade, I bet, but that is not now.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
Who knows. Zhaoxin/Via and others made quite a few leaps the recent years anyway
Remember that they have the mass to basically brute-force themselves their way with sheer brainpower.
amwes549@reddit
That's what I was saying lol. That they'll close the gap at some point, just that it isn't closed now.
Madeiran@reddit
If the price is right, the sheer number of DDR5 channels and PCIe 5.0 lanes could make these CPUs extremely attractive for AI use. IPC barely even matters as long as a few cores can keep up with data loading.
hackenclaw@reddit
If it means keeping AMD from over charging exorbitant price. Yeah they are useful regardless.
I welcome the competition.
ilaister@reddit
Governments the world over ban CCP companies from building their telcoms infrastructure due to consistent spying. If you want their tech running your PC good luck to you.
INITMalcanis@reddit
It would be nice to think that this will spur AMD to provide better PCIE lane and memory bandwidth to consumer CPUs, but somehow I doubt it will work out that way
hey_you_too_buckaroo@reddit
Not a single benchmark..
FunkyMuse@reddit
This ^
It's too early to say anything without benchmarks and some actual proof to verify these claims.
m1013828@reddit
96 atom equivalents with overcooked connectivity lol
kafka_quixote@reddit
Zhaoxin is far less right? Do they buy from SMIC?
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
They're fabless IIRC, yes. I'd say it's most likely also fabbed at SMIC, yes.
CRKlein91@reddit
The are closing the gap with AMD Bulldozer
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
Zhaoxin has been way past this mark and for a long, long time already, as even the former Zhaoxin KX-7000 processor already reaches ~80% IPC of Zen 2.
Their cores reached ~83% of a i7-9700K's IPC – Five years ago already!
Yet they lack other crucial features and especially software isn't whatsoever optimized at all to run on those CPUs yet, so that on one hand it comes dangerously close in one game like Final Fantasy XIV (90%) or gets crushed in another like Dragon Quest X (60%).
Though if you want to see those CPUs with the typical Western blinders of arrogance (like they wouldn't be a threat in the near future), it's performance is nevertheless always good for posing for some click-bait titles …
TechPowerUp.com – Zhaoxin's KX-7000 8-Core Processor Tested in Detail, Bested by 7 Year Old Core i3
meteorprime@reddit
Core count doesn’t mean anything. You can have a bunch of cores that don’t do much.
That’s the reason no one buys any high core counts from like 15 years ago they aren’t good even if they have way more cores than your current cpu.
soggybiscuit93@reddit
Core count matters to some hyperscalers.
Even though this CPU doesn't actually exist yet in any meaningful way, it's certainly not aimed at consumers.
RandomFatAmerican420@reddit
If that’s the case I can sell you 10million cores that do one operation per year. You should be able to resell to these hyperscalers that only care about core count, whoever they are.
soggybiscuit93@reddit
Fair enough, but generally it's easier to scale core count than core performance. And 128 PCIe5 lanes can accommodate 8x dGPUs for GPU-centric compute.
Besides, I'm willing to bet this has better nT than any 15 year old CPUs
ASuarezMascareno@reddit
Are they implying they have already surpassed Intel?
Famous_Wolverine3203@reddit
Intel's currently in the dogwater but they're not astronomically behind.
not_hairy_potter@reddit
The name recognition intel has can give it a much needed boost if they get their house under order.
Famous_Wolverine3203@reddit
Big IF. But hopefully. Id rather take a duopoly than a monopoly.
ReplacementLivid8738@reddit
Competition is good, it's that simple right?
nanonan@reddit
Absolutely. It's cool hardware. Pity about the sinophobic cold war paranoia that infests these threads.
MC_chrome@reddit
Id much rather competition come from a place like Europe than the shitheads with the CCP, personally.
Quatro_Leches@reddit
Why what’s wrong with china
MC_chrome@reddit
The people making these tech advancements are fine.
However, I am not a big fan of these advancements directly benefiting one of the worst governments on planet earth.
Quatro_Leches@reddit
really?. worse than U.S/Israel? I don't see China warmongering for decades in middle east.
DerpSenpai@reddit
China is 100% worse than the US and Israel yes
jerpear@reddit
Foreign countries bombed by Israel this year: 5 Foreign countries bombed by the US this year: >1 Foreign countries bombed by China this year: 0
asdf4455@reddit
Oh yeah? How about extending that by the last 50 years smart guy! Checks notes wait nvm
jerpear@reddit
Tbf China did invade Vietnam 46 years ago.
Funnily enough it doesn't actually make a difference to Israel's numbers.
meteorprime@reddit
China doesn’t fly planes over places and bomb them but they do a lot of fucked up shit
Especially to their own people
nuked24@reddit
Yeah, all the mortal enemies of the South Pacific are unifying against China because they're nice and friendly and totally not building massive invasion fleets.
KhalilMirza@reddit
China still has not attacked anyone yet. It's both China and neighboring country border disputes and plain old US propaganda.
65726973616769747461@reddit
China invaded Vietnam on 1979 to protect Khmer Rouge which were led by Pol Pot. Wiki
throwawayerectpenis@reddit
It's so freaking ironic, tell me ONE country China has invaded or outright bombed in the last 3 decades. Then look at the US and how many countries they've invaded, bombed and looked the other way when Israhell is literally bombing the shit out of all its neighbours!
KhalilMirza@reddit
I agree, it's usual American propaganda to make the other look bad when doing worse.
meteorprime@reddit
That’s what happens when you can voice your opinion and not have your wife thrown in jail.
KhalilMirza@reddit
You can actually dislike both and say both are not perfect.
meteorprime@reddit
I can.
They cant.
And to me that will always be worse.
meteorprime@reddit
Yeah, the people in Hong Kong are totally free
KhalilMirza@reddit
Still better than being bombed, killed.
meteorprime@reddit
China is a jail
KhalilMirza@reddit
What good is freedom when you can be killed at any time by the freedom loving democracies over fake WMD in Iraq, Libya, banana wars in many south american countries ,over throwing democracy when Iran wanted to nationalized oil and reinstated monarchy, USA has highest number of democracy over thrown when the person making decisions does not make the right decisions and many many other things.
We can ignore all of that because USA is a democracy and China is not.
meteorprime@reddit
China supports Russia.
China is a brutal dictatorship that will do anything to stay in power and to expand that power.
They jail peoples fucking families to make them comply.
FUCK XI
KhalilMirza@reddit
USA has supported many countries which have mass killed people like Israel. How is that any different from China doing that in Russia? Why have double standards?
USA has literally attacked both Iraq and Libya when both countries wanted trade in alternative currencies but sure China is the bigger bully.
How is that any different when USA jails people for supporting Palestine and criticizing Israel?
You suck American cock all you want. I am not saying China is perfect but USA isn't better.
meteorprime@reddit
because child will jail your entire fucking innocent family you clown, XI is evil
throwawayerectpenis@reddit
Hong Kong is an integral part of China though.
diychitect@reddit
Youre right its only their own citizens they brutalize.
diychitect@reddit
Lets not forget about tanks running through crowds back and forth until making them “paste” which had to be pressured washed off the concrete. They after sent the bill for the munitions used to “deal with them” to their families. There are many levels of evil
meteorprime@reddit
You don’t see the country that literally wants to take over Taiwan and has stomped out all opposition in Hong Kong Kong conquering?
Lol?
VastTension6022@reddit
China has been the most peaceful of the world superpowers by far. None of them are great bastions of morality, but everyone crying "anyone but china!!" is far too susceptible to hypocritical propaganda.
Choice-Chard-4961@reddit
So eu govs are so good that they don’t even have a chance to be able to compete in this? Well, any recent tech area. Internet, Mobile, AI … all missed.
jinjuwaka@reddit
Lets see...totalitarian oligarchical dictatorship masquerading as a parliament?
An economic powerhouse openly capable of checking their morals at the door?
A competitor that has absolutely zero compunction against violating foreign law or sovereignty if they can get away with it
Sounds a lot like us so, speaking from experience, lots.
throwawayerectpenis@reddit
Europe too busy sucking off US to actually have their own viable tech sectory. Despite EU having the brains to do this for years they were complacent and for some reason were OK with relying on US tech for their stuff (y'know NATO ally and whatnot).
Mother-Prize-3647@reddit
If the Chinese can provide nvidia level flagship gpus for half the price then give me 10. We buy everything else form china anyway
DerpSenpai@reddit
There's also an European ARM vendor that will sell to Hyperscalers.
HayatoKongo@reddit
I'd rather the competition come from China than nowhere though.
costafilh0@reddit
Nice! Hopefully in a decade we get multiple options world wide to choose from.
autogyrophilia@reddit
Well that's a bit of an exaggeration with no benchmark in sight.
However this seems a competent enough CPU for virtualization of lightweight tasks and all the things CPUs like the Ampere Altra ones excel at. With the advantage of being x86.
Would love to see a big RISC-V processor coming from them. Distributions are struggling to build packages due to the slowness of publicly available processors .
AutoModerator@reddit
Hello Helpdesk_Guy! Please double check that this submission is original reporting and is not an unverified rumor or repost that does not rise to the standards of /r/hardware. If this link is reporting on the work of another site/source or is an unverified rumor, please delete this submission. If this warning is in error, please report this comment and we will remove it.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.