Can someone kindly explain me "Israel"?
Posted by sarcasmish7@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 54 comments
To give a little context: I live in a shithole country (Brazil) and I couldn't care less for US/Europe/Middle East politics, but in the end it will may affect me somehow - or I'm just curious, anyway.
Me question is: what's the deal with Israel and people's reactions over it?
From my (very limited) POV, it's one of the few Middle East countries (if not the only one) with a "western approach", which is generally closest to an libertarian society than any other arrangement. They were attacked by some crazy terrorists (Hamas) and are retaliating. I really don't care about religion, but judaism seems to be a closer religion to any libertarian view (again with the closeness to a western approach) than some islamic religion. Yet somehow people from all sides seem to fully hate Israel and whatever they do.
Is it because jewish people have/control most of the world's money?
Is it because the country is occupying land that "doesn't belong" to them?
Is the retaliation for the attacks "too strong"?
Is it because other countries (mainly USA) are paying for their wars?
Am I missing some other thing here?
Knorssman@reddit
You are right that Israel is the only country in the middle east that even tries to come close to having a more western/libertarian legal system.
The reason so many people hate them is because they have been emotionally manipulated by context free death statistics (and a complete inability to consider what the alternate timeline looks like) and biased reporting from globalist leftist sources that are against Israel because Israel is considered western and the globalist leftist are anti-west.
adamsmithapples@reddit
I would think someone who uses the term “globalist” would be against Isreal.
Knorssman@reddit
The globalists are the leftists who always protest against Israeli "colonialism"
adamsmithapples@reddit
What exactly is globalism in general because I would think that a state that requires billions of dollars just to exist would be considered globalism in some form or another.
Knorssman@reddit
That is not what globalism is.
Globalism is any schemes or conspiracies to centralize power across multiple countries whether that be one world government or non government organizations that span multiple countries that nonetheless sets the policy of those countries against the interests of the people of those countries.
Here is a concrete example, the schemes from the UN and other organizations trying to get countries to kneecap themselves by abandoning cheap reliable energy in favor of non-functional "green energy" the mechanism that the green energy scam is perpetuated across multiple countries is globalism.
If you continue to insist that the US supporting an ally is globalism then you are just wasting time.
ikonoqlast@reddit
Ancient days- Roman Empire. Judea/Israel/Palestine occupied by the Romans. Judeans want independence. Many uprisings. Romans get sick of this and depopulate the region, scattering Jews all over the empire.
Some Jews escape the diaspora, some return. For 1800 years the region is a mish mash of Jews, Christians and Muslims, mostly Muslims and ruled by Muslims.
Mid 19th century-
Region is ruled by the Ottomans (Turkey). The Ottomans were once powerful, advanced and rich but have been overtaken by Europe. They are now sick and declining and the Europeans powers are waiting knives out to carve up their territories once the Ottomans collapse.
Zionism (the ideology of a return to Judea and creation of a Jewish state) explodes. Increasing numbers of new Jewish immigrants fight with Muslim natives.
20th century-
WWI finally kills the Ottomans. Britain takes over the 'Palestine Mandate'. Their policies explicitly favor Jews over Arabs. The Balfour Declaration was a public expression of British support for the creation of a Jewish state.
20s-30s-40s- increasing Arab v Jew v British riots, murders, bombings, assassinations, general terrorism. British try to keep a lid on things. Fail.
1947- British say "Enough! We're out!". Jews, with an influx of WWII veterans, quickly win the ensuing civil war. Surrounding Arab states launch first Arab Israeli war but their frankly amateur armies lose to Jewish WWII veterans.
Jews murder and terrorize Muslims into fleeing the country in large numbers, Deir Yassin being one such massacre. When the fighting dies down the refugees are denied readmittance to the country, source of Palestinian refugees. Their homes/farms/businesses are seized as 'abandoned' and given to Jews.
In the 1967 war Israel captures the region known as the West Bank (of the Jordan River) from Jordan. After the war they keep it in overt violation of international law and flood the area with Jewish settlers, also a blatant fuck you to international law.
And that's where things stand. Various wars that Israel keeps winning. The Palestinians fighting back with the only weapon they have- terrorism.
There are no actual good guys here. The Palestinians are hate driven murderous terrorists. The Israelis are as close to a Nazi state as you can be and truly epic hypocrites given their history.
Suitable_Vehicle9960@reddit
You conveniently forgot to mention important details such as the fact that 75% of the Arabs that got exiled did it by CHOICE. The Arab leaders of the surrounding countries broadcasted through the radio for the Arabs to leave the land because they were planning to invade and take it over. 98% of the Middle East wasn't enough. They wanted all of it to be Muslim. So the Arabs who fled were able to return after Israel won the war, and those who remained, became Israeli citizens with full equal rights. In 1948, Jordan occupied Jerusalem. In 1967, the Jews reclaimed it back.
ikonoqlast@reddit
Well you have credulously reiterated one of the most persistent myths of the last 100 years. What you're claiming simply never happened.
And even if it has happened Israel still committed a war crime in not allowing them to return.
Suitable_Vehicle9960@reddit
It absolutely happened. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/1948-exodus-uncovered-palestinian-press-reveals-leaders-advised-departure
What happened after is a different point and we can spend hours debating that. But the premise is that they left the land KNOWING full well of the plan to exterminate Jews. That in itself is a wart crime.
ikonoqlast@reddit
Oh... You're just flatly delusional...
Icy-Success-3730@reddit
Palestinians aren't subverting other nations and controlling their institutions to enforce censorship, or autoritarian laws that suppress dissent; that is the key difference here. Even if we assume no sides are good, one of them are not committing aggression upon other countries and their liberties.
When was the last time you heard about someone losing their job, being deported, or having their bank account frozen because they denied the existence of Palestine? One of these nations refuses to leave the rest of the world alone.
SARS2KilledEpstein@reddit
You started strong until you got here. You are presenting massacres like Deir Yassin as being something post war but that literally occurred at the beginning of the civil war before the first Arab-Israel war which occurred in 1948 after Israel won the civil war and was recognized as a single state by the UN. You also skip over that the West Bank and Gaza were occupied by Arab countries from the first Arab-Israel war until 1967. In 1967 Israel did reclaim the occupied territory and some additional territory such as the Golan Heights and Sinai Peninsula. Subsequent peace treaties years later returned those respective areas to the Egypt and Syria. Characterizing Israel as being close to Nazi's is some extreme hyperbole. Especially since 2005 both the West Bank and Gaza have had full autonomy from Israel which is the only time in modern history a country allowed part of it to effectively secede. As for the current war that is 100% on Hamas the elected government for Gaza.
Suitable_Vehicle9960@reddit
Antisemitism. Any other answer is a lie.
Smutte@reddit
Worse wars are being/have recently been fought with many Arabs dying in Syria, Yemen etc. To understand the reaction to Israel I think it’s good to understand the difference in reaction.
I think there are two major factors at play. I’m not saying this is all there is to this complex relationship but I think they are major.
1) Arabs and Muslims have been openly very hostile to Jews. Hamas won sn election and they wrote in their party program that they wanted to delete Israel - they won the election in Gaza. This hatred is not unique for Jews (see eg Muslims vs Hindus in India) but it seems extra strong towards Jews. Many Arabs have moved to (parts of) the West during last 20-30ish years
2) the Jews are a particular group of people in the sense that they have been very badly treated during thousands of years. Ottomans, Romans, Germans etc. But they still managed to build Israel, a country that greatly outperforms all neighbouring countries in basically all ”success metrics”. Even winning multiple wars when several Arab states attacked them. This doesn’t fly well with many in the ME region but neither with socialists in general (see support for Hamas and Palestine in the West). If you can be treated badly, live under very difficult conditions and then rise like the Jews - why can’t others do that too? Israel managed to rise up, but many others cannot (each in their own very different context and of course with their own good and bad excuses).
Parabellum12@reddit
Israel didn’t rise up, they have had everything given to them.
Their territory was taken from the Palestinians by Britain/UN and since then the US alone has given them +$250 billion. They didn’t build a single thing.
sarcasmish7@reddit (OP)
Isn't "territory taken and kept" the basic history of every single country?
Parabellum12@reddit
Usually the territory is taken by the victors. Isreal won nothing. They were literally gifted the land.
Britain was in control of the territory after the ottomans lost it in WW1. In 1948 the UN decided to displace millions of Palestinians and give the Jews half of Isreal. Since then the Jews have slowly taken more of the land, leaving the Palestinians with only the Gaza Strip today (which, they are again slowly taking).
They were given land, money, and munitions and have used it to violate the palestinian partition plan (WHICH THEY AGREED TO AND THE PALESTINIANS DIDNT).
They didn’t build a single thing on their own.
sarcasmish7@reddit (OP)
"They were literally gifted the land."
"Since then the Jews have slowly taken more of the land"
So they didn't won anything and then they won, but it doesn't count because "their start wasn't fair". Is that it?
It sounds like someone is mad because their cousin inherit some huge amount of money, and then made it even bigger
AdministrativeHat276@reddit
No it's that they began to ethnically cleanse and massacre them and stole 78% of their land. And have subjected them under a brutal Apartheid and occupation ever since, eventually culminating in the genocide in Gaza that we are seeing today.
not_today_thank@reddit
No it wasn't. The territory was occupied by the Ottomn Turks, most of the land was owned by Arab's from other part of the empire, the people that lived there were mostly dirt poor and didn't own their own land.
At the end of World War I the Ottoman Empire falls and France and England step in to provide "administrative advice and assistance...until such time as they are able to stand alone" to the former territies of the empire. Part of that mandate was to create a home for Jews.
Starting in the mid to late 1800s the zionist movment started and Jews had been moving to Israel (Egypt briefly occupied the land in the Early 19th century and kicked the jews living there out, when the Turks took it back they let Jews back in) and buying land which was moslty owned by wealthy Arabs in other countries.
So anyways Britain is trying to maintain peace in Palestine in the 1920s and actually restrict Jewish immigration to so. Hardly taking land from the Palestenians to give to the Jews. After World War II the UN proposed a two states solution and the Brits were kind of dragging their feet.
And the Jewish Palestenians said screw that, we're declaring independence from Britain. For about 60 years or so Jews had been buying up land in Palestine and Israel was created in areas where they owned the most land or land that wasn't officially owned by anybody (though there were people that subsisted off the land).
So in conclusion Britain never took the territory from Palestenians and they never gave the territory to Israel.
By 1947 Britain pretty much just wanted to wash their hands of the Palestine problem. A lot of the former territory of the Otteman empire fell kind of naturally into local governance. But Palestine was a poor region that had been pretty much continously occupied for most of 2000 years.
Smutte@reddit
I think we both know you are not being truthful but I also am not interested in a political conversation that starts with your comment.
I suggest interested readers look into the history of the land, what role Jews had and the history of those today called Palestinians. It is interesting in itself and also to contrast with claims like the one above.
Parabellum12@reddit
What claim did I make that was false,
Smutte@reddit
How about "Israel didnt rise up, they have had everything given to them" and "they didnt build a single thing"? Two paragraphs with lies out of two paragraphs written and you still fail to comprehend it when I point it out.
The sentence of territory being taken from the Palestinians is less childishly obvious but I believe also a false or misleading description. Even the name Palestine was given by the Romans to minimize the Jewish influence in the region, after the Bar Kokhba Revolt where Jews tried to revolt against Romans.
So 2 out of 3 sentences were childish lies and the 3rd was likely also a lie or at least misrepresentation. You seemed to have failed to even recognize your mistake and/or played stupid about it. Good luck in life.
lastwindows@reddit
Blame France and England for the mid-east mess. Their actions after WWI were despicable.
Icy-Success-3730@reddit
One thing no one is explaining here is that israel has a criminal history of violating agreements made between them, other countries, and Palestine multiple times to steal land, uranium, weapons, and intel.
Also the fact that 5 israelis were seen dancing on the rooftops in Manhattan on the day America faced its worst terrorist attack in history, and that Larry Silverstein bough the WTC and also bought "terrorism insurance" just a month or so before that attack.
Combine this with the fact that israel controls our politicians through AIPAC, our financial system through the Federal Reserve, and all our other institutions through these two to enforce censorship and anti-BDS regulations, then you will understand why many Libertarians are very anti-israel.
finetune137@reddit
These are same people mutilating children penises and holding anybody not from their group as second class
PepeSilverstein@reddit
What are you even talking about? Both Judaism and Islam practice circumcision. The circumcision rate in Palestine is 99.9%, Israel 92%
finetune137@reddit
Two wrongs don't make right. Israel wants to be western, it better act like it instead of doing these insane archaic religious rituals.
PepeSilverstein@reddit
80% of men in the US are circumcised.
finetune137@reddit
I know that. It's terrible practice that's what I'm saying
SARS2KilledEpstein@reddit
In the real world outside of Reddit for most libertarians its simply they don't support giving money to Israel. Israel has a right to defend its civilians and the current war is justified by libertarian standard. Here in Reddit though you have a very vocal minority that are anti-Israel and very pro Arab colonialism.
lmaomitch@reddit
Have you tried researching and reading about the issue on your own instead of asking idiots on Reddit to do the work for you?
nathanb131@reddit
Problem is this might be the most difficult topic to research. It's a perfect storm of political complexity. Almost all reference material is biased. You'd need to read several books from either side if your goal was unbiased understanding.
The only thing about Israel that I'm somewhat confident about is that I don't trust strong opinions about it.
That being said, I agree with your point. Asking motivated anon's about it is the WORST way to approach this topic.
sarcasmish7@reddit (OP)
Yes I did, and I also want to know what the idiots on Reddit think of this as part of the research. You, not being one of them, gave this incredible insight. Thanks.
diderooy@reddit
Hey man, the AI bots can't build their knowledge alone. They need us to feed them 2 sentence answers to their prompts.
Extreme-Meringue-960@reddit
I think one of the main points brought up here is that the US shouldn't be subsidizing/ sending them money, that's money they took from US citizens but is being used for the benefit of another country.
oscoposh@reddit
..and that Israel wouldn't be nearly as bullheaded without the US support. Its not just the money, but having the military backing of the world's strongest army at the drop of a hat is why Israel can be so heinous (and in turn makes me, as an american, feel like our country is just as heinous).
Rapierian@reddit
I think those are all the excuses people have, but when you see people go into full-on-Israel-hate I think it's revealing a deeper underlying anti-semitism.
By full-on-Israel-hate I'm talking about the people who froth at the mouth the moment Israel comes up - kind of like the people who can't rationally discuss the pros or cons of a Trump policy without starting to yell and scream.
JestonLunnigan@reddit
There are tons and tons of arguments for and against Israel, who has the right to what and who did what first, regardless I have yet to see one that justifies killing (literally) tens of thousands of women and children. And being against that is not "defending Hamas".
LondonRolling@reddit
They killed more than 60.000 people, people with minds and lives like you and me. Has the government of Brazil recently killed 60000 people? Or even a 1000 people? The western public only recently acknowledged this, and this is why you're seeing public outrage. Almost no other country would be allowed to do this. Immagine, France, Germany, Argentina doing this. The world would not stand it, not even a thousand people. They killed 60 thousand people. And now they're starving them. Is the retaliation too strong? Yes. It's like if someone killed your son and instead of going to court, you in retaliation killed their entire family (i mean all the extended family, uncles, grandparents, cousins, everyone) and burn down all their houses. Plus the poor suckers are blocked there. People in gaza are voluntarily starved, they can't escape, they can't leave and food is not entering. Often described as an open air prison, gaza held 2 million people before the "war". It has little arable land, it has a huge access to sea that is completely blocked. The IDF entered gaza with tanks. They bombarded them with planes that cost 100 million dollars each. And these people are powerless, defenseless. Its a massacre. That's what causing the outrage.
sarcasmish7@reddit (OP)
So, I get it, they killed a lot of people. Yes, war is bad, everyone agrees. But they are at war, right? They were attacked, they are attacking. Is it all a "who started" discussion? "Who's finishing"? From what you're saying, Israel is holding the Gaza strip people hostage. If they "release" Gaza, the war is over? No more attacks from Hamas or whoever has attacked Israel?
I know I may sound provocative but that's because I really don't see any solution there - it seems that people want Israel to do nothing and just accept it's (probable) extinction.
(btw: the government in Brazil is composed by the local drug dealers and we have around 60K murders per year, so...)
Anjin31@reddit
Gaza has effectively been an open air prison for 60 years with Israel controlling everything entering Gaza, including food, water, fuel, electricity. What gives Israel the right, legally or morally, to imprison people who’s crime is being born in the prison?
Some will argue “But they elected Hamas….” Did all the children who were not even born decades ago when Hamas came into power vote for them? By the same logic, Bin Laden was justified in killing American civilians because they voted in US elections for the Bushes, Obama, Biden, and Trump.
LondonRolling@reddit
In my opinion israel made many mistakes throughout its history. Its a long process that should have been started 80 years ago. But the endpoint is to give israel citizenship to all palestinian people and recognize them as a protected minority and give them some sort of half-sovereignty over their territory. This is what happens in civilized countries.
FuckTheTile@reddit
Based
FoghornLeghorne@reddit
Is it because other countries (mainly USA) are paying for their wars?
For libertarians it’s this one. And I don’t hate them I just think the USA should leave them alone.
sarcasmish7@reddit (OP)
Yes, I get this point, and I agree.
Also, I've read someone making the parallel with WW2 (yes, any conversation always come back to this, I know), when US didn't get involved until it was "too late" and they got attacked by Japan. I'm being overly naïve on purpose, but could it be a similar thing now?
Anjin31@reddit
Roosevelt wanted to enter the war formally for years but needed the US to be attacked to justify going to war. As a result his foreign policy included working to constrain the Japanese’s access to resources to force them to resort to war and launch an “unprovoked” attack on the US. This is a reoccurring theme in US foreign policy.
LaManoInvsible@reddit
This is an incredibly complicated and complex topic, but from my standpoint, the situation in the Middle East, including Israel, highlights precisely why the State itself is the central problem.
Israel operates as a deeply militaristic state. Where's the individual liberty when conscription exists? Where's the freedom to choose whether to be a soldier or to pursue productive endeavors instead of dedicating your life to warfare?
This issue is further exacerbated by the massive monetary backing it receives from the West. Billions in tax money are siphoned from the productive hands of citizens to fund an endless conflict. This directly fuels a perpetual cycle of violence, where one state's aggression begets another's reaction, spiraling onward.
And let's not forget the lobbying behind it all. Do we truly want a "military industrial complex" to thrive and profit based on subsidies, and the blood of others? That's not a free market; it's crony capitalism at its worst.
My take: governments must stop funding a conflict that is going nowhere.
AgeOfReasonEnds31120@reddit
'"libertarian"
Prestigious-Fig-5513@reddit
It didn't exist until 1948 and was a result of how the victors of WWII planned the future (ie recent past and now). Arguably, the primary goal was to set up a western foothold in the Islamic part of the world from which to project power there.
Rvtrance@reddit
Well, I can’t speak for all the Libertarians, no one can. But a lot of us don’t like that We’re giving them all this money to do what could very well amount to be genocide in Gaza. We don’t like that they get us involved in conflicts with Iran and other countries. The comedian, Dave Smith said. “ if you’re going out to the bar all the time with your friend and he’s constantly getting you into fights. It’s time to get a new friend.” Looking at it in that light how much of an alley are they really? A lot of the reason that Muslims in the Middle East, don’t like us is because of how much we help Israel. Libertarians tend to be American first end foreign aid type of people. There’s also a lot of connections to Mossad and Ghislane Maxwell and Epstein. (Her dad was a double agent) Hamas are a bunch of assholes. I condemn everything they do. But Israel isn’t the Saintly Beacon the media would want you to believe. It’s a very complicated situation and a lot of libertarians just don’t want to be involved. Same can go for Ukraine. But they actually need our help to survive when Israel doesn’t.
libertarianinus@reddit
Because Marxists have pushed Opressor and oppressed to gain power and steer the debate. Why did you have Palestinian Flags during black lives matter protests? Gay pride flags? Che Guevara? They don't offer a solution to fix a problem because then the power and money would dry up. Just study the history of marxist movements. What happened during the '60s? The Weather Underground was the outcome of the students for Democratic society or SDS, Black panthers who were controlled by the Communist party. The students and Weather Underground became professors in colleges making radical marxist warriors.
Defected Communist Yuri Bezmenov told us this in the early 1980s.
https://bigthink.com/the-present/yuri-bezmenov/
EntertainmentOdd9904@reddit
If you want to know why people hate most Israelis (and yes most of them are bad according to statistics related to them supporting the genocide in Gaza), all the evidence you need is to look at pictures of Gaza after they carpet bombed it and murdered at least tens of thousands of unarmed children and women there. And if you want other good reasons you will easily be able to find many of them. Good luck
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