Thoughts on New Secondary Cockpit Door Mandate?
Posted by Comfortable_Ad_9341@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 637 comments
The FAA is now mandating a secondary cockpit cage door between the galley and front bathroom for when a pilot needs to exit to use the bathroom, by next year.
Is this even useful?
suuntasade@reddit
looks more like a device that is manufactured by a guy who has friends in the position to pursue this kind of rules
Fastbutnotfurious91@reddit
Exactly my first thought too.
CrazyCletus@reddit
Well, yeah, it has to be certified to be incorporated into an aircraft and then it can only be sold by the approved vendor(s). Very few things on aircraft are cheap or easy to update.
Why-R-People-So-Dumb@reddit
And there won't be that many in the scheme of things being purchased so they have to make enough money from the first batch of orders to hold them over for the turnover of new planes.
redshirt8485@reddit
According to an article from a couple years ago, the real cost is $35,000
Source: U.S. regulator to require secondary cockpit barrier on commercial airplanes
Inevitable_Street458@reddit
How much is the "electric fence" upgrade? š
CaptainWaders@reddit
Point at anything on a jet aircraft and say āhow much does that costā and the answer is probably āat least 1 Mercedes maybe a few Mercedesā
Gloomy-Employment-72@reddit
9G stress load tests aren't free, you know.
ELON_WHO@reddit
$15K? You definitely left off at LEAST one zero.
PropOnTop@reddit
There was a post recently about the oil plug for a bizjet engine costing about that much.
A door? Way more, I guess.
shhbedtime@reddit
They wouldn't be that cheap.Ā 50 at least
tomdarch@reddit
Both "aviation grade" and "tactical/security grade."
VP1@reddit
Absolutely no way in hell are they that cheap. I'd bet they are 10x that.
Mispelled-This@reddit
I knew the guys that pushed for the āreinforced cockpit doorā requirement after 9/11. Total coincidence that they had a warehouse full of them and ready to ship.
I really should have invested when they offered me a share.
1046737@reddit
They're really cheap considering it's an airline part.
hypnotoad23@reddit
Except the rule keeps getting delayed by congress
Cool-Acanthaceae8968@reddit
You canāt buy every congressman.
MapleKerman@reddit
Israel
Brambleshire@reddit
Airlines have lobbyists too
cptnpiccard@reddit
You don't need every congressman, only the cheap or compromised ones. And even then, you only need 50% of them.
hypnotoad23@reddit
Big pharma would like a word
ShotFaithlessness201@reddit
Because no one wants it its not like anyone had done it in 12 yearsĀ
cazzipropri@reddit
They need to finish negotiating the kickbacks.
obecalp23@reddit
Thatās probably true. Because a door that you can keep open would have done the trick.
Donut@reddit
This guy knows his regulatory capture!
BigBadPanda@reddit
Itās purpose is to delay anyone attempting to breach the FD when pilots take breaks. Itās perfect for that purpose.
NoGuidance8609@reddit
Will this be electrified off the hot batt bus, Emer Bus, or Shed bus?
saml01@reddit
This guy lobbys.
Adabar@reddit
Maybe true, but doesnāt detract from being seemingly helpful in increasing how much time it takes to charge the flight deck
Littman-Express@reddit
Iām pretty thin. I feel like I could slip through that
-WARisTHEanswer-@reddit
Its an extra layer of protection. I don't see what the issue is.
Katana_DV20@reddit
Do you think its necessary?
-WARisTHEanswer-@reddit
Its one of those. I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it type things.
Party-Ad4728@reddit
It's because I kept getting up mid-flight to ask to read the airworthiness cert.
Twarrior913@reddit
Why not a third tertiary door? Maybe made out of sticky cobwebs? And a fourth, out of spikes that rapidly poke out on a timer?
Seems like security theater to me. Not sure how this will actually make anything practically safer.
hoppertn@reddit
Perhaps a trap door that opens into the avionics bay they can open before leaving their pilot lair?
HenryRasia@reddit
A trap door that makes the assailant fall straight out of the airplane
Yams-502@reddit
And a speaker in the ceiling that plays the sound of Goofy screaming when activated
Secret_Poet7340@reddit
TheĀ Wilhelm Scream?
Yams-502@reddit
Nah bud Goofy falling off a cliff makes a much longer and lingering scream. Perfect for this application
sarkyscouser@reddit
Now we're talking!
chipc@reddit
When pilots come out of the cockpit, it eliminates using the beverage cart and requiring an additional (fourth) crew member to move it in/out of place and monitor it.
XxVcVxX@reddit
The beverage cart thing isn't actually required though. It's just a thing FAs do.
Savings_Part_5493@reddit
That is an incorrect statement depending on the country and airline.
Twarrior913@reddit
I would rather have as many humans between me and the door as possible. I would rather have a 200-300 pound beverage cart between the door than a 15lb cuttable wire. And I would bet a monthās pay that any airlineās out-of-cockpit security procedure will require the same amount of cabin crew during an out of cockpit.
dougmcclean@reddit
This seems less effective than the cart. And less effective than the Get Smart opening credit sequence that you are proposing.
FlyingsCool@reddit
Omg, thereās people on here who remember Get Smart???
dougmcclean@reddit
The door gag and the cone of silence gag live rent free in my head.
knuckles53@reddit
Do you know whatās between that secondary barrier and the cockpit door? A lavatory. That secondary barrier goes up when the pilots leave the flight deck to use the lav. Right now when the flight deck door is opened for the pilots to leave the flight deck there is nothing between the passengers and the flight controls but a flight attendant and a drink cart. This secondary barrier eliminates the small, but potentially catastrophic, opportunity for someone to rush the flight deck in that small window of opportunity.
And this is not a ānewā issue. Secondary barriers were a recommendation of the 9/11 commission in 2002 and ALPA, the pilot union, has been advocating for almost 25 years.
L0LTHED0G@reddit
And in nearly 25 years, specifically post-9/11 with its upgraded doors, how many times has anything been done to warrant this need?
You and I both know more airplanes have crashed due to pilots intentionally taking them down, than terrorists have taken them down, in those years.
This is just security theater. It is a solution looking for a problem. A sales guy, looking for a customer. Nothing more.
srbmfodder@reddit
But there have been instances where passengers tried to get into the cockpit even within the last few years. Someone kicked a flight attendant not that long ago and went over the cart. I'd rather have this wire barrier than some grandma and a cart between someone trying to jump me when I go back in after taking a whiz.
Sure, the threat is low, but it isn't 0.
L0LTHED0G@reddit
Just to be clear: you're agreeing the current program is working then?
And they didn't. Success!
srbmfodder@reddit
Close calls don't indicate success, and I know you know that. We all study the swiss cheese model and all that stuff about something hopefully stopping the event chain and having a mishap. My own airline admits that the final barrier ends up being pilot skill/ability.
We are better off than having doors open like we did pre 9/11 with the armored and locked doors, but that was the quickest solution they could come up with aside from FFDOs.
No-Business9493@reddit
Just make everyone an FFDO.
srbmfodder@reddit
And then I started blasting! Lets just put marshalls on every single flight
No-Business9493@reddit
No, let's put FFDOs on every flight. Pilots are already being paid to be onboard the airplane, no need to clog up a seat with someone who will likely never need to act even once during their career.
If you can't responsibly handle a firearm you probably shouldn't be flying an airplane.
srbmfodder@reddit
We should just make flight attendants FFDOs. They are already back there. Iād love to have grandmas with guns.
No-Business9493@reddit
Nah, the door is enough.
srbmfodder@reddit
We ain't talking about the door, we're talking about GUNS. The more the better. All pilots and all FAs. Maybe some dogs too
No-Business9493@reddit
Pilots yes, FAs no. You can continue being facetious all you want but it's bordering on the absurd.
srbmfodder@reddit
You came back a day later to argue about something so dumb it doesnāt matter. You must really like the sound of your own voice if you somehow think youāre going to convince me youāre right by saying the same thing over and over.
Just.shut.up
Adabar@reddit
This is the key problem with all of these arguments. "This is just security theatre" "the current method works"
Just because something works a million times doesn't mean it's flawless. Re: Bluestreak 5342.
We in aviation need to be critical of things that work. What if they don't, then what? A physical barrier is much harder to get past than a flesh barrier, or a word barrier. Of course I hate the idea of dealing with this thing. But that doesn't mean that objectively it would add a critical barrier to a system with essentially no failsafe.
srbmfodder@reddit
100%. That was a really flippant answer above I replied to and I don't think he flies for airlines and understands how many close calls we've had. My company publishes internal stats but it isn't something I can disclose on the internet.
Honestly, I don't think it will be too bad. Pax leaves the Lav, barrier goes up, and now I can come out and take a leak, BS with the FAs a bit, browse the snacks. I think it will be more pain for the FAs having to deploy it.
When I was on CRJs, flying one with a single flight attendant, I had some old lady rush me just as I turned around to enter the cockpit as the door opened. I turned back and was just straight up shocked to see this lady putting something in the trash bin at the galley.
rnpreach@reddit
74Gear approved- always browse the snacks š
cincocerodos@reddit
"And in the nearly 80 years of commercial aviation, how many times has someone tried to ram an airliner into a building?"
L0LTHED0G@reddit
When someone gets past the 1st level of security and can say yep, it needs to be improved, it'll make sense.Ā
In your example, there were repeated failures that led to buildings collapsing.
As a result, we fixed the vulnerability.
What vulnerability does this wire door fix which the current beverage cart is lacking in?
HopsMaltWaterYeast@reddit
In the business of risk assessment, Risk is often calculated as a function of Likelihood and Impact.
I agree that the likelihood of a situation warranting this need actually occurring is low (but not 0). The impact however would obviously be pretty catastrophic if it did happen.
Redundancies exist in almost every aspect of aviation for this same reason, right?
L0LTHED0G@reddit
They already have redundancy. A crash cart and a human to shout to close the door.Ā
What does this redundancy - which merely replaces the cart, a flight attendant still has to put it in place and stand guard - improve on the existing barrier which needs to hold for a few seconds to slow them down?
The current system has shown to be sufficient. I'm a network engineer, so I know to build a solution that's effective, simple, not overly complicated. And cost-effective.
A beverage cart fits all those purposes, this adds nothing but complication and cost for the same resolution.
Adabar@reddit
Not every airplane uses carts. Not every FA pays attention. Those are not physical redundancies. There does not yet exist a required physical backup to a single flight deck door.
Ashamed-Charge5309@reddit
Why not make the Secondary Barrier part of the airplane lavatory door setup? There is already a door there, so in theory you just have to "redo" the door some reinforcement wise and whatever is needed on the latch side. Granted it's "open" at that point rather then closed, but no one will be coming that way due to the barrier and the pilot/copilot is staying in the cockpit area so not like they are sneaking a peek at the facilities in use
sjmanno@reddit
Great idea!
KevEvThePilot@reddit
The funny thing is that no other country even bothers with the overly-hostile ageing FA and the cart, and has had zero issues either. Why is America so afraid all the time?
zimm3rmann@reddit
I mean, not to play the whole 9/11 card, but itās pretty burned into the psyche of most Americans.
Tyrome_Jackson2@reddit
Everything after 9/11 is bogus "security" anyway
GustyGhoti@reddit
ā¦āNothing between the passengers and the flight controls but a flight attendant and a drink cart.ā ā¦ and a reinforced door and more people in the flight deck.
mattumbo@reddit
Yeah people are bashing this but itās a pretty basic security measure to have āairlockā style setups for secure areas. The secondary door doesnāt need to be fancy, itās just stopping anyone from bum rushing the cockpit while the pilot steps out to take a piss without the need to get a FA to wheel a drink cart out and play security guard.
sw00pr@reddit
Instead of a wire door that goes up and down, there should just be a solid door so the front galley acts like an "airlock".
Lakoviav@reddit
A trap door that drops into an alligator pit in the cargo hold.
aeroxan@reddit
Why don't they just build the whole plane out of security door?
coder7426@reddit
Ban all passengers, can't be too safe.
tomdarch@reddit
Federal Express Flight 705. Clearly, planes should just fly around with no humans on board at all.
aeroxan@reddit
Zero pilot operation. Or pilot zero operation. That sounds cooler.
ts737@reddit
How about dogs? Or bees? Or dogs with bees in their mouth and when they bark they shoot bees at you?
BLOD111@reddit
With fricking lasers on their heads. Shut up and take my money
Weasel474@reddit
Or frickin sharks? With frickin laser beams on their frickin heads?
No_Mathematician2527@reddit
But dogs have to be in an airline approved kennel for the entirety of the flight... Wait I've got it.
In flight service dogs with bees in their mouths and when they bark they shoot bees at you. We go all out and get them the little vests and everything.
EchoKiloEcho1@reddit
Ha this is fantastic
cbrookman@reddit
Release the robotic Richard Simmons!
HesSoZazzy@reddit
A third tertiary door?? That's like...nine doors! ;)
flyingcircusdog@reddit
An Indiana Jones-style hallway where the pilots need to dodge the spikes and blow darts when using the bathroom.
thatsimprobable@reddit
Time for snakes on a plane!
Cool-Acanthaceae8968@reddit
You have to spell out airplane.
āBut in the British spelling.. aeroplane doesnāt use an I!ā
āAā¦. Iā¦ iiiiiiiiiiiiiIiiIIIIIIIIIIIIIIā¦ā¦.!ā
GlockAF@reddit
What is the carrying capacity of a swallow?
EstablishmentMean386@reddit
African or European?
Cool-Acanthaceae8968@reddit
I donāt know?
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!
Weasel474@reddit
Airbus or Boeing?
nbdevops@reddit
Depends on the size of each load.
krepke@reddit
European or African?
T-1A_pilot@reddit
...I wish that I could up vote this more than once...
PattyChuck@reddit
This is the best comment in the entire thread.
falcopilot@reddit
A Galaxy Quest Chomper corridor.
falcopilot@reddit
A Galaxy Quest Chomper corridor would be appropriate.
Red_Bengal_Cyclone@reddit
Imagine that scene with a giant boulder rolling down a tunnel playing out on an airplane š¤£
poser765@reddit
So, like, a flight attendant?
DrRob@reddit
My weight and balance! Nooooooooo!
Robie_John@reddit
IJ was my first thought as well. :-)
bamfcoco1@reddit
āDEPLOY THE LEGOS!!!!!ā
MajorBeyond@reddit
And a giant rock ball that comes at you like a bowling ball return. And blow gum darts.
Legitimate-Watch-670@reddit
That's just too many doors. What we really need is a trunk monkey. That's the real answer to safety and security. Every airplane needs a trunk monkey.
tomdarch@reddit
Hah! I told my wife I should bring my diamond sword with me!
Bolter_NL@reddit
Need to have a huge swinging ball come out of the ceiling.
Adabar@reddit
Silly reasoning. The system we have right now has a single point of failure. Nobody wants 10 layers of safety, just more than -.
ohsoquickly@reddit
Guess you're not including all the other layers before you ever step foot onto the airplane? Unless you think THOSE are just security theater, but this, this one last layer, this one matters.
.....
Adabar@reddit
Door is open, flight attendant is half paying attention, galley cart isnāt in the wayā¦ Or maybe itās a regional and they donāt do that at all. Thereās scenarios that donāt happen every flight but do happen. It doesnāt need multiple doors. But with one door open, there is often no second physical barriers. Two physical barriers makes a massive difference in safety (and in hassle).
Please explain how any other safety barriers prior to entering the aircraft affect this process. Briefings? Not a physical barrier. Asking your FAs to stay fully alert? Not a physical safety barrier.
I didnāt say I like it but itās a pretty simple analysis to say it will improve safety
No_Mathematician2527@reddit
The passengers do. Just think, a security door in-between every row of seats. Passengers will love it. Much easier to have inflight orgies if you only have to convince like 7 people.
einTier@reddit
Reinforced cockpit doors is the one thing in all the security theater bullshit we did after 9/11 thatās actually been effective. However, every once in a while on a flight, pilots need to leave the cockpit. There is a moment where the cockpit door is open and there is opportunity to exploit this security hole and gain access to the cockpit.
Itās unlikely but it is a risk. This allows authorized personnel to leave or access the cockpit without posing a risk to hijacking.
I think itās a reasonable solution and Iām against almost every security measure theyāve tried in the past 20 years. Plus, I canāt figure out how it would really impact me as a traveler.
New_Wolverine_2415@reddit
What? I don't get the hate for this. Without it, there's almost no barrier between the cockpit and cabin when pilots go to the lavatory. Perhaps it would be better to have separate lavatory access from the cockpit, but that would obviously mean a completely new design.
Ashamed-Charge5309@reddit
Michael Chertoff has patents expiring, so he invented some new calamity to start the clock again on profit seeking at tax payer expense? /s
duaIinput@reddit
And decades after 9/11 too. Has there really been any attempts of people trying to breach the flight deck since then? Itās pretty much understood that every person on that flight will beat you to death if you try and hijack.
vagasportauthority@reddit
There have been. Just yesterday (or maybe today), a woman tried to get into the flight deck and a vet put her to the ground.
This secondary barrier wouldnāt have done anything because the Flight Deck door was shut but yeah, people do try, there are multiple attempts pretty much every year.
FightingForBacon@reddit
Just trip wires all over the fucking place.
N4bq@reddit
I vote for "Sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads".
rpsls@reddit
A snake pit!
markeymarkbeaty@reddit
Can they not make it solid? So pax canāt take videos of us āflirting with the FAā when in reality, Iām just trying to stand up for a while and the FA is telling me her whole life story while I think about how it would be better to be sitting in the quiet cockpit and how Iām going to get this one sided conversation to end so I can call to go back in
PhilRubdiez@reddit
āHey, Iām going to [what you are immediately going to do]ā and walk away. Works wonders for any unwelcome conversation.
RiskyNight@reddit
[fly this thing]
InitialEquipment7967@reddit
it looks very handy for drying laundry on
BmacSWMI@reddit
Iāve not even heard of this. No way it will be out in a year. With the FAA behind it weāll see it in 2036.
rkba260@reddit
This isn't new.
The FAA mandated this in 2023, the manufacturers have been pushing back on the timeline implementation, surprise surprise.
US DoT / FAA
invest_in_waffles@reddit
No, but...but....but..........
šššššššš
CorrectingEverything@reddit
Because it's stupid and unnecessary.
rkba260@reddit
Ok?
nascent_aviator@reddit
This was supposed to go into effect in August. The article I read said the industry was pushing back for the (very reasonable) reason that there are no secondary barriers yet certified lol.Ā
hitchhiketoantarctic@reddit
āThe industry was pushing backā and now āthe industryā has BB as FAA administrator. Heās less a person, and more 5 regulatory captures in a trench coat.
voretaq7@reddit
This regulatory capture raccoon sucks!
Bring back Rocket!
JediCheese@reddit
Then they can not deliver new airplanes until they figure it out.Ā Sorry to put a wrench in their delivery plans but it needs to be doneĀ
nascent_aviator@reddit
Legally, sure. Eventually. It seems a bit much to set back all plane deliveries until there is a certified version of this just for another layer of security theater, though.
rkba260@reddit
I'm aware. I get ALPA emails about it quarterly, according to them however, its Boeing/Bus that are the roadblock.
Seacabbage@reddit
Wonder what the driving force behind this is. To clarify, I donāt know any instances of the existing security doors being breached while in flight, aside from that earlier episode of āThe Boysā
rkba260@reddit
Because currently protocol is to have two flight attendants block the forward galley with a drink cart. Is it effective? So far... yes. Is there room for improvement? Also yes.
greenflash1775@reddit
Security theater. Iāve never bought the idea that there are terrorist cells buying first class tickets on the off chance that one of the pilots has to pee. Itās a woobie for men that need reassurance, just like the FFDO program.
OverallPreparation65@reddit
Has little to do with terrorists and more to do with mentally ill people, something weāre seeing a dramatic increase in. My airline had a (naked) person rush the cockpit on a wide body when the relief officer opened the door to assist in subduing someone in the middle of a psychological break.
greenflash1775@reddit
Sounds like those guys werenāt following the rules. You canāt point to an example of someone not following the rules and say āsee it doesnāt work!ā
OverallPreparation65@reddit
Youāre right, I suppose crews always follow the rules over the course of 15 million+ flights a year. And if they donāt, they (and their 250 passengers) deserve whatever happens next. Almost every single system in aviation has redundancy out of an overabundance of caution. Throw out your AvSax bags too while youāre at it. I ānever bought the ideaā that EFBās were bursting into flames on the flight deck. I donāt agree with that so letās not waste any time on safety measures.
greenflash1775@reddit
This isnāt the forum to debate how and what procedures they didnāt follow. Captain Saveaho should have been doing something differently. Itās not about being correct every time, but if youāre actually an airline pilot you know that dude was wrong 3 different ways.
OverallPreparation65@reddit
Look man Iām pretty plainly agreeing with you that procedures werenāt followed. The IRO did what he thought was appropriate for the situation, not understanding the level of threat. What Iām saying is redundancy is something generally accepted as a good thing to have in airline operations. People make mistakes, and things happen that shouldnāt happen. The investment in secondary barriers is minimal compared to the whatever slim risk associated with a mentally ill person breaking into a flight deck presents.
MontgomeryEagle@reddit
The cart is like 300 pounds. That's going to slow you down a lot more than this thing will.
New_Wolverine_2415@reddit
Yeah because the cart is so high it's impossible to climb over it.
MontgomeryEagle@reddit
And by that time, the idiot trying to do that would be stopped by any number of passengers, if they could even scramble up and not smash their head on the ceiling.
New_Wolverine_2415@reddit
You think the passengers are going to notice what's happening and fight during the what, 30-second window? I'm still waiting for arguments why the secondary door is a bad idea. As far as I understand, it's going to be only used in cases when pilots need to leave the cockpit, e.g. going to the lavatory. It's not like it's so heavy that it's going to have huge impact and to me, it seems more effective than a cart. And honestly, assuming most pilots here are from the country where 9/11 happened, I must say I'm shocked by the responses.
MontgomeryEagle@reddit
Every incident since 9/11 suggests they do exactly that.
New_Wolverine_2415@reddit
Would you mind sharing some receipts for that? When was the last time someone even attempted something like this? I mean trying to enter the cockpit while it's briefly open because the pilot needs to go to the lavatory. How could passengers even react during such short time?
MontgomeryEagle@reddit
It wouldn't be "such a short time" if there was a cart in the way.
There have been plenty of examples, including one just 2 days ago.
https://eu.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2025/07/24/atlanta-grandmother-stops-aggressive-passenger-tucson-flight-viral-video/85350721007/
New_Wolverine_2415@reddit
Well where are those "plenty examples"? I'm not sure if you even read the article you linked. That seemed like a crazy passenger, not a coordinated hijacker. Nothing in the article suggests this happened while the cockpit door was briefly opened. And even the woman who helped restrain the passenger claims everyone except her just sat and did nothing as the aggresive passenger came from the back of the plane. https://www.tiktok.com/@amorfatitestlab/video/7528841657265999159
If anything, this is more proof the extra barrier would be useful in case of a coordinated attempt to enter while the door is briefly opened.
gimp2x@reddit
Put one between first class and coach, first class bathroom should require a barrier to approach
Ok-Rock4447@reddit
Kinda dumb tbh, like the cockpit doors are already heavy enough so that no one will make it to the cockpit, atleast not without a fight. Itās a waste of money and all itās gonna do is make these planes heavier
New_Wolverine_2415@reddit
It's obviously for situations where the cockpit door needs to be opened, like poilot going to the lavatory. Are people here just pretending to be stupid or wtf is going on??
Ok-Rock4447@reddit
Well considering this inst happening for anyone else except US based planes, yeah itās kinda of retarded
New_Wolverine_2415@reddit
I have no idea what are you even trying to say. How does this being mandated by FAA and not other agencies (yet) make it retarded?
_Constantin3@reddit
Lol, we've been pulling trolley and closing curtains for years in my EU carrier. I was surprised that wasn't a thing is US when i saw.
airboss1998@reddit
Looks like something theyāll mount to keep coach passengers out of the deluxe first class labā¦ š¤¦š»āāļø
planelander@reddit
Stupidity at its finest
New_Wolverine_2415@reddit
Why is it stupid?
New_Wolverine_2415@reddit
Figures, I have asked like 3 times why this is a stupid idea, no one is able to provide an argument.
superheated_honeybun@reddit
I donāt really reasonably get why. Sure it adds an extra layer of safety and who wouldnāt want that. But at the same time, itās not really doing all that much more, which makes it difficult to justify the cost and complexity that a change like this would bring. You canāt just consider the cost it takes to install these, but also the cost in changing procedures, the cost in training crew to coexist with this new system. Not to mention the risk involved with changing a fundamental part of how individuals like the flight attendants interact with the aircraft environment.
TL:DR: Whatās the point of this change? What problems does it solve?
Russian_Korean_guy@reddit
I donāt see the point. If this was because of 9/11, it wouldāve been done a long time ago right?
Why just implement it now?
ultrafire3@reddit
Itās like they asked chat gpt to come up with a new regulation
GeorgiaPilot172@reddit
They should just mount a claymore to the outside of the cockpit door and give the FO the clacker
justhp@reddit
Boeing Fuck, we mounted it the wrong way!
Tando10@reddit
Boeing: "We actually mounted it this way on purpose. In the event of a hijacking, either pilot is too immediately take action by inputting the correct arming sequence into the flight controls. Throttle up>left stick>left>up>right>right>down>right>throttle down. This will arm the Cockpit Denial Claymore for detonation. If the aircraft is flown within a 100km radius of any marked city a CDC light will flash and detonation will occur in 20 seconds. Pilots must input the arm/death sequence again.
Our engineers have calculated that these inputs are impossible to perform accidentally and are in no way responsible for the recent increase in cockpit-related air accidents.
As a forward-looking company, next year we will be pre-empting the FAA's new rules by introducing explosive cartridges to the engine nacelle mounting structure. In the event of a bird strike, object proximity sensors will detonate the cartridges and shear off the engine to get ahead of any engine malfunctions and warnings, giving the pilots zen-like peace of mind if such an accident were to occur."
FlyingsCool@reddit
Itāll be so quietā¦Nice!
PropOnTop@reddit
Yeah, just put out a bulletin and tell no-one.
What can possibly go wrong?
Rampager_55@reddit
If the public found out theyād probably say it was intentional: No pilots means no hijacking. Perfect Boeing fix
primarycolorman@reddit
Nah, they'd bury it in software as a piloting aid. Just don't bang out the konami code. Which controls? Why any of them, of course..
just-some-gent@reddit
Underrated comment, deserves way more upvotes
408548110@reddit
Nigga
insanelygreat@reddit
That "front toward enemy" really vibes with how some airline execs think of customers.
DatBeigeBoy@reddit
Modern problems require modern solutions.
554TangoAlpha@reddit
FFDO program should hand out claymores
Own_Leadership7339@reddit
For some reason I thought you meant a claymore as in a sword.
Although it may be too big for a plane, I think all FOs should get a claymore for crowd control
PhilRubdiez@reddit
There can only be one. You want single pilot ops?
jewfro451@reddit
But what about campers?
link_dead@reddit
This is stupid; they should just turn the aisle into a conveyor belt that runs in reverse anytime the cockpit door is open.
VirtualCLD@reddit
And the conveyor needs to exactly match the speed of the plane...
FlyingsCool@reddit
I LOVE this idea (aisle is a conveyor belt)ā¦And it running at the speed of the plane would be pretty funny!
basssteakman@reddit
Dear god , here it goes again ā¦
JoinMeAtSaturnalia@reddit
My favorite version is Helicopter on a turntable.
Nora_Walkuerie@reddit
A helicopter on a turntable actually wouldn't take off for the same reason a helicopter without a tail rotor (what you have effectively created) wouldn't take off. A plane on a conveyor takes off assuming it can get off the ground before the tires explode from being oversped
hannahranga@reddit
If it was just simulating no tail rotor surely sufficiently stubborn pilot could still take off (but will almost certainly crash shortly after).Ā
Nora_Walkuerie@reddit
Yeah I guess I said that wrong. A helicopter on a turntable matching the angular velocity of the rotor relative to the helicopter body would mean the rotor's velocity relative to the air is zero, thus it wouldn't generate any lift.
MultiGeek42@reddit
What if it has two rotors?
Doc_Hank@reddit
Fore and aft? Or intermeshing?
RadiantMango5989@reddit
obviously, two stacked turn tables, counter rotating.
N546RV@reddit
and a microphone
Free2escape@reddit
Bottles and cans, just clap your hands
Weasel474@reddit
It only works if it's playing Fortunate Son.
FreeKatKL@reddit
Old heads get the joke
LabRat113@reddit
I know some very smart people who refuse to believe the plane would still move forward and take off.
einTier@reddit
The problem is how the question is phrased.
It says this magical treadmill always matches the speed of the wheels. The only way that can be true is if the plane never moves forward or back on the treadmill. If thatās the case, there is no airflow over the wings.
However, the planeās engines donāt give a shit about the treadmill because they donāt interact with it. No matter how fast the treadmill runs, the plane will take off.
Itās a poorly worded question and thatās why intelligent people get confused.
OZZMAN8@reddit
See that's the issue. If the plane is actually moving or not. If it moves forward fast enough it can take off. I think half the confusion comes from the fact that mythbusters tested the situation in the wrong way and now people apply that situation to both scenarios. The scenario where the plane can travel forward is so obviously going to have it take off that I would have thought no one would consider it in the question.
LabRat113@reddit
I've heard it presented as the conveyor belt moves at the planes takeoff speed. But yes, it's intentionally misleading.
DrtyBlvd@reddit
Not when I asked it, it wasn't š¤·š
Obvious_Noise@reddit
What until you hear about the helicopter on a turn table
DrtyBlvd@reddit
I asked this question innocently (honest) nearly 20 years ago. I still go back and read the too-ing and fro-ing for entertainment every now and then.
Never mind the helicopter on a turntable, what about the diver in the swimming pool using a ladder going the opposite way!
skiman13579@reddit
And there are 2 different answers depending on the wording. If the conveyor belt matches the speed of the AIRCRAFT then the plane takes off. Lets say a c172, takes off at 55kts, belt going 55kts other way, wheels spinning at 110kts.
But!!!ā¦ā¦. If itās worded as matching the speed of the WHEELSā¦ well it results in the instantaneous destruction of the universe as we know it the picosecond the pilot releases the brakesā¦.. why? Because the aircraft as a whole accelerates against the air, so wheels begin accelerating. Belt matches speed, but the wheels donāt care and aircraft still keeps accelerating, so belt has to speed up more to match. Plays a never ending game of catch up until the speed of the wheels and belt reach and then exceeds the speed of light and tears apart the fabric of space and time destroying the universeā¦ā¦. So no the plane never takes off!!! (This is assuming magical wheel bearings and tires that donāt explode-after all we already have a magic treadmill)
Solid_Technician@reddit
Treadmill needs a very big fan on the front. Presto changeo you got airflow!
teamcoltra@reddit
What I don't like is how the question assumes a plane can't take off from a stand still. The question can be "can a plane take off if it's on a treadmill going backwards" and the answer is still yes.
capnbuttcrack@reddit
No you donāt.
LabRat113@reddit
Some "otherwise" very smart people.
capnbuttcrack@reddit
Ha!
Danger-zone247@reddit
Airflow not conveyor speed. That mythbuster episode used an ultralight STOL aircraft.....so it was super easy for it to rotate at low speed. Airflow over the wings. the conveyor does nothing.
LabRat113@reddit
All the conveyor belt provides is the perfect mindfuck.
beef_stew1313@reddit
I thought the conveyor belt matched the speed of the wheels so the plane would never move forward? Meaning that there wouldnāt be sufficient airflow over the wings to produce lift. Is that wrong ?
66NickS@reddit
Now THAT would make buying first class seats worth it to see people get flung backward.
Different-Wish-843@reddit
Sounds logical lets add it!
ThankFSMforYogaPants@reddit
600 mph? That would be fun.
29r_whipper@reddit
For every action is an equal and opposite reaction, so would a passenger have a ground speed of 0? š¤
tomdarch@reddit
But that would cause the plane to stop moving forward and plummet straight down!!!
(/s)
PANIC_EXCEPTION@reddit
"When we say that these conveyor belts needs to hit 350 KIAS, we don't mean the rubber, we mean the airspeed indicated by the pitot sensor we put 3 feet above it. Fix it, grease monkey."
poser765@reddit
No. Bad Redditer. Bad.
ThatHellacopterGuy@reddit
You unbelievable bastard.
Take my upvote and get out.
FujitsuPolycom@reddit
This is... this is hilarious. Make it speed up relative to distance-from-cockpit. Closer you get, faster it spins.
Tricky-Awareness7909@reddit
shittyaskflying is that way captayne
blueingreen85@reddit
Something should also be launching barrels down the aisle.
Expensive_Ad_3249@reddit
Idk that gladiators tv show has that. And it was uphill. They'd need to permaclinb to match that
livebeta@reddit
But did Joey watch that show?
link_dead@reddit
Yes, I've watched that show, and it is one of the hardest obstacles they all struggle with. These terrorists need some sort of goal to work towards; if they make it too easy, there is just no feeling of achievement.
WhatsUpSkysUp@reddit
A trap door in front of the cockpit is better
MeLikeSteak@reddit
No disrespect but thatās just silly. What you really need is a moat filled with crocodilesā¦much more sensible.
k12pcb@reddit
Thanks Donald š
livebeta@reddit
Sharks with fricken lasers are passe now eh
DiligentCredit9222@reddit
Only on United Possible, if they have to ~~kick doctors out~~ have to recommendate people when they are overbooked.
tomdarch@reddit
With piraƱas and sharks with lasers!
link_dead@reddit
No way, then you have to re-load it with new snakes before every flight. This is just unsustainable.
outworlder@reddit
Weight and balance calculations are going to be a bitch with a rolling boulder.
Alternative_Candy409@reddit
I'm sure there are cheaper solutions than snakes. A box of cockroaches should be readily available from most catering companies.
cpltack@reddit
I've had it....
link_dead@reddit
WITH THESE
dnattig@reddit
MOTHERFUCKING SNAKES
capn_starsky@reddit
ON THIS
cpcallen@reddit
MOTHERFUCKIN' PLANE!
Steve_Streza@reddit
Nothing bad has ever happened from putting snakes on a plane.
Turbo_SkyRaider@reddit
The Avro RJ85/100 was ahead of its time...
DaageQuasar@reddit
As an airplane mechanic. I approve!
jcpham@reddit
Ejecto-seats and all pilots must wear parachutes and 100 mandatory FAA hours of certified skydiving instruction from an FAA certified skydiving instructor š
Im_A_Praetorian@reddit
It could help with the boarding and deboarding times.
PresentationJumpy101@reddit
Baaaaaaaadass
redditburner_5000@reddit
That will just make the terrorists more fit.
G25777K@reddit
How airlines are accepting this I have no idea, causes more problems than it solves.
link_dead@reddit
Which is why the conveyor belt just makes so much more sense. You can also use that sucker to de-plane the aircraft of all those pesky passengers. I calculate that running the belt at 50mph will deplane the entire aircraft in 3.4 seconds!
Unusual-Cut-3759@reddit
Magnetic boots for passengers should be mandatory. The ones were used in "Face off" movie prison.
theanswriz42@reddit
Probably no less effective than FAs standing in front of the galley with their carts.
Avia_NZ@reddit
Why would they stand in front with a cart? Whatās the point of that?
hannahranga@reddit
To nominally stop someone charging the cockpit while the doors open.
Avia_NZ@reddit
Thatās so ridiculous
hannahranga@reddit
Eh, you've really only got to slow them long enough to A slam the door and B give the front couple rows enough time to realise, shit themselves and then do something that'd probably be considered excessive force if a cop did it.
starBux_Barista@reddit
yeah, cart is more effective, the wire in the photo, looks like something that would be a minor inconvenience
yaricks@reddit
My understanding is that they are steel-ish wires and the goal was to slow someone down. It's not something you can easily rip-apart by hand. With that said, this very much seems like security theater taken to the next level.
voretaq7@reddit
The design is clearly intended for the pilots to wash their socks in the lav and then hang them on the wires to dry.
Anyway these are the dumbest thing and the FAA needs to take whatever the hell drugs they were taking when they came up with this off the prohibited medications list if theyāre going to promulgate these sorts of regulations.
Share with the rest of the class, assholes!
ciscovet@reddit
You can get the Upgraded barbwire STC for 1.2mil per plane
SATSewerTube@reddit
Hell itās takes me forever to put it up or down when going on break. It would definitely slow down an assailant.
Bottle_of_Nostalgia@reddit
I donāt get it. I do it 2 times at doors training what once every 18 months? And itās like perfectly fine
Then I get on a B model and look like an idiot while the two flight attendant judge me with šļøššļø
SATSewerTube@reddit
You comment made me actually laugh out loud because itās so true š¤£
FAās watching me fuck with the barrier
TopoMapMyWall@reddit
Agreed.
HighDragLowSpeed60G@reddit
The wire is probably fine. Those supports on the side holding the wire look like an aggressive sneeze could knock them loose.
btgeekboy@reddit
Or something to get tangled up in during another type of emergency.
Adabar@reddit
The goal isnāt to stop someone, itās to slow them. If it takes any number of seconds, itās a win. Just give the crew time to close the flight deck while theyāre being charged
Cool-Acanthaceae8968@reddit
So just use a galley cartā¦ lulz.
SmugAlpaca@reddit
It's surprisingly rarely an issue, because the first five rows of the airplane are psychologically-inclined to rush anyone running in that direction (see Icelandair, an incident on American, numerous other incidents on US carriers), and the two FAs up front will ram you with the cart and, if paying attention, any number of implements in the galley.
This originated at United for... reasons. Mainly around the flight attendants not wanting to man the cart and saying it put them at unnecessary risk. Even if you put concertino wire in front of the FD door, you're still solving for a non-real problem.
imgurcaptainclutch@reddit
It would be good in situations like rough air to keep the cart stowed.
ciscovet@reddit
I heard you can't take wire cutters through TSA checkpoints anymore too
-LordDarkHelmet-@reddit
Thanks a lot osama
luckyjack@reddit
Why they gotta suck the joy out of everything?
No_The_White_Phone@reddit
Go watch third body problem. make these wires invisible nano wires and problem solved. Just donāt trip over your own feet getting out the door to go to the lav. Youāll land on the floor, a bloody pile.
Belerophoryx@reddit
It makes it obvious when someone has ill intent.
stewiecookie@reddit
Isn't this a revision of the response to the German wings incident change to ensure a pilot couldn't get locked out, then a pilot still got locked out when the other had a medical emergency? So now this seems like a happy medium where the door can be left open/unlocked but still stall someone from rushing in, at least long enough for the other pilot or crew to react.
Sea_Procedure_6293@reddit
God flying is a miserable experience. I wish we had more trains in the USA.
ce402@reddit
Please explain to me how this will affect the passenger experience in the slightest.
Go ahead, I'll wait.
These are meant to be deployed when the pilots open the cockpit door for meals and breaks. I doubt you'll even notice their presence from 11A.
Sea_Procedure_6293@reddit
Itās more a general observation. Calm down.Ā
Twarrior913@reddit
The moment trains become a viable form of long haul, widespread passenger carriage in the us (never), it will be just as if not more painful.
hannahranga@reddit
Tbh it's significantly harder to deliberately crash a train and the results generally aren't as dramatic either.
New_Wolverine_2415@reddit
How does this affect passengers?? WTF are the people on this sub on about?
Fly-navy08@reddit
If we did, they would be slow, inefficient, andā¦ oh, wait, we have Amtrak!
mustang__1@reddit
Frontier is usually cheaper than amtrak
MR_Se7en@reddit
The people of Walmart canāt afford a train ticket on Amtrak
bnh35440@reddit
They seem to be able to afford southwest tickets just fine though.
SATSewerTube@reddit
Because WN is cheaper than Amtrak
Cool-Acanthaceae8968@reddit
Wallmar!!!!
FlyingBikes@reddit
Go take a train from New York to LA and tell me how enjoyable it is
brucebrowde@reddit
Would you say the same if we in US built it to the same standards as some high-speed rail that some other countries cough China cough have?
On a similar note, I feel the only reason flying is nicer in US these days compared to driving is because whoever in USDOT is in charge of the corruption division still haven't figured out how to make pot holes in the air, then spend billions and at least a year half-ass fixing the 1 mile stretch of the busiest highway 100,000 people use every day and somehow manage to make it worse than it was.
EmotioneelKlootzak@reddit
It's pretty shitty, largely because we've completely neglected infrastructure for the last 60 years.Ā Nothing is funded properly so there are maintenance issues and worn out equipment everywhere.Ā
We also sold off most of the tracks to private companies who give freight trains priority, so the trains full of people get stuck waiting extended periods for trains full of corn or whatever that move at 25mph.
We could easily have our own version of the Tohoku Shinkansen, where you just go to the station, get on with your luggage, sit down in a reasonably comfortable seat, and ride at 200mph to your destination, but that's politically impossible in the US, so we don't.
theskipper363@reddit
Most of its around 170mph but details.
Most people donāt realize that itās almost as expensive as a plain ticket. Itās not a ācheap transportā
UncleStains@reddit
It's almost like some competing transportation industry has successfully lobbied America's rail system into the garbage.
Thunder-Road@reddit
I have, and it was quite enjoyable. The real issue is that it was way more expensive than a flight. To say nothing of the time it took.
Mlarta@reddit
What plane has that? The mockup I saw for the upcoming 321 delivery looked like a professional installation unlike whatever that is.
Also the installation looked like it could barely fit a man between the door and barrier...
Bouchie@reddit
looks like a 777
freakydeakier@reddit
Do you have a link to that? Iām curious what theyāve designed.
Mlarta@reddit
I don't because it was in a company publication. But it looks very similar to the Schroth barrier if you Google it. If you know the 320, it doesn't leave much space between the FD door and that barrier.Ā
freakydeakier@reddit
I hope theyāre not thinking to install it on the jumpseat wall. The lav door swing takes up all the āhallwayā space. It would make more sense to install at the the cabin entrance and encase the galley so we can get drinks/snacks while outside. Iām sure theyāll do whatever is the most inconvenient for everyone involved.
UnfortunateSnort12@reddit
You knowā¦. Why canāt we get our own bathroom that is accessible from the flight deck? Would really make this all so much easier. Managing my body functions is like the worst part of the job.
buriedupsidedown@reddit
Iām all for it but I think the real answer is w&b and expense. I hate flying with some flight attendants who just expect you to hold it tho. Even if the flight is 2 hours long, yes I can go two hours without having to pee but we arenāt guaranteed to land where weāre going. So it might be more than 2 hours. That now sucks for the other pilot when youāre in the middle of getting weather, calculating fuel, contacting dispatch etc and your partner goes āwell, letās hold cause I didnāt take that pissā
confusedguy1212@reddit
Dunno who cares what the FA thinks?! When you have to pee, pee. When you have to shit, shit. I couldnāt care less what anybody thinks of me.
Theyāre there to do a job just as much as I am.
EdBasqueMaster@reddit
I had a flight attendant tell us āitās going to be a while we just started serviceā the other day
I had to very politely remind her that Iām not asking.
I always try to be mindful of their time and such and I of course try not to interrupt their service as I know itās hard work. But I promise if Iām at the point Iām calling, itās because itās time now.
Bouchie@reddit
When nature calls, it won't go to voicemail.
Beavis_777_IAH@reddit
More than once Iāve had to tell the FA, āGet a blocker or get a mop. Your choice. But Iām taking a leak either way.ā
21MPH21@reddit
Exactly. I'm not holding it to make the FAs more comfortable or happy. I'm getting up whether I need to or not. On longer flights maybe twice.
IDGARA if the FAs are unhappy about it, bathroom breaks are part of their job.
airlinetw6839294@reddit
F em. Flight attendants have the most bathroom access of anyone on the plane, Pilots have the least.Ā
Electrical_Rate1026@reddit
They will just close the door as the pilot is about to leave the cockpit. Once he is back in they open it up for public use again.
pte_parts69420@reddit
Was it Cathays 747-400 that had the crew rest bunks and a Lav, or am I thinking of something else?
UnfortunateSnort12@reddit
No clue. Sounds awesome though!
pte_parts69420@reddit
Iāve seen complaints online that in theory, it was great. In practice, the cockpit smelled like shit
tomdarch@reddit
I seem to recall some pilot mentioning a model of Airbus where they could tell when someone pooped in the forward lav because the smell filled the cockpit instantly.
Honestly it sounds like a significant security issue.
licensemeow@reddit
Happens in 320ās all the time.
OccupyMyBallSack@reddit
They need to add poop sled and courtesy flushing to the safety briefing.
RaiseTheDed@reddit
Cargo 767s have a lav in the flight deck. It's stupid small though.
Pax 747s have bunks accessible from the flight deck.
ErmakDimon@reddit
The 747 did have a cockpit lav as an option I think
CorrectingEverything@reddit
You're at the point of flying a 73 and still have trouble managing when to take a shit or not drink too many fluids before you fly?
UnfortunateSnort12@reddit
I like to stay hydrated? I also like spicy food. On the road I say no to spicy food and drink less water than I want. To pretend it isnāt an inconvenience is crazy.
CorrectingEverything@reddit
It's really not an inconvenience when it's really easily dialed in, especially for someone at the point of flying 737s.
UnfortunateSnort12@reddit
lol. Okay man. Youāve got the largest bladder and colon. You never want to pee in moderate turbulence. We envy your biology.
tomdarch@reddit
Aviation grade certificated coffee can in every cockpit. Never open the door!
d_zeen@reddit
Or just make the bathroom door open outwards and blocks the hallway and locks while the pilot needs to access it.
durandal@reddit
Pee bottle.
findquasar@reddit
Did you not see the single pilot flight deck designs? The shitter is literally on the flight deck with its on radio panel.
_BaldChewbacca_@reddit
Ya same here. I have an overactive bladder, and it creates more stress for me than anything else
WhatsUpSkysUp@reddit
This would make life so much fucking easier. Imagine being able to take a piss without bother flight attendants mid service. Or people with weak bladders who constantly need to piss. Or hydro homies.
nobody65535@reddit
Wouldn't it still need a flight attendant to clear the lav / raise the barrier wires though? Unless you leave it closed from the ground?
Final-Carpenter-1591@reddit
Regional jets don't have the room for that.
UnfortunateSnort12@reddit
Not with that attitude.
SRM_Thornfoot@reddit
Relief tube?
SATSewerTube@reddit
Oh! Oh! Oh! Put a radio in it too so we can go to single pilot ops!!! (This was a real plan created by EASA/Airbus)
jwoods23@reddit
You joke but the T-1 has a comm panel in the lav. Iād always plug in to hear my students talk shit about me thinking I was off headset. My favorite was āyeahhhhh, I already hooked this sortieā and I had to keep myself from saying āyes you haveā back at him š
mustang__1@reddit
Just piss in a Gatorade bottle like a freight dog and stop bitching. Presto, private bathroom you don't need to share with the unwashed masses in the back.
ChainringCalf@reddit
You already know the answer. Weight and money.
UnfortunateSnort12@reddit
Totally. But those cables look heavy too /s.
One can dream though.
Bouchie@reddit
Are the pilots not allowed to go to the galley now?
Katsuking84@reddit
As long as it electrified itās good, pretty sure thatās in the rule somewhere.
OverallPreparation65@reddit
This is not new. This mandate has been in effect for several years with a final install date of 2025. Whatās new is the FAA just pushed back the date by a year ti allow more time for installs.
StatementOk5086@reddit
Need to just put the cockpit door behind the forward bathroom. Then you have an extra jump seat ā¦.
Marsupialize@reddit
Letās see who got the contract to manufacture and install this janky chicken wire
littlepenisbigheart1@reddit
Itās for drying clothes ffs
Wooden-Cartoonist762@reddit
Somewhere somebody or a number of folks are going to make money as they will be the only ones āAllowedā to make these, so this mandate may as well be just as a favor for them to make money
Commercial-Roll-7379@reddit
Or just make the Pilots shit in a bucket in the cockpit
boxer1182@reddit
They would rather do this than anything to make the flight realistically safer for passengers
PreferredSex_Yes@reddit
This would've helped that India flight
landcruiser33@reddit
Some 777s at my company have these secondary barriers and they are a pain in the ass to use. I think they work well and make sense but they are very fiddly.
fallingfaster345@reddit
Fiddly is putting it nicely! I hate those 777 barriers. haha
jofathan@reddit
Designed properly, these could be useful. However, I've only ever seen ones of these with giant gaps in them -- that kinda defeats the purpose and could be even more dangerous if it gives a false sense of security that leads to the front-most door being left open more.
fallingfaster345@reddit
I wouldnāt worry too much about that, to be honest. Even with a secondary barrier, most airlines have procedures in place on how long the door can remain open, with a specified number of seconds typically being the max.
Thereās also still a FA blocking and visually assessing whatās happening in the cabin who can verbally direct passengers to sit down, wait by the curtain, turn around and use the aft lav, etc, or, in the event of a bad actor, yell to the pilots the SOP verbal commands that the airline will have in place to get the door shut as quickly as possible.
I donāt think many airline employees get complacent with the flight deck door, barrier or no barrier. (This opinion purely based off my ~15 years of airline flying.) The flight deck door opening is a group process between two pilots and two FAs and itās highly unlikely that all four individuals donāt give AF about safety and security, but even if their own personal views are one thing, SOP is in place to minimize threats.
Personally I am not a fan of this type of barrier (Iāve worked at an airline with them) but Iām not paid for my opinion so up it goes. haha
whostolemycatwasitu@reddit
How does that protect from the other pilot locking the other out?!
fallingfaster345@reddit
There are always two people in the flight deck. During a pilot restroom break, a flight attendant goes into the flight deck for this reason. The secondary barrier is purely to protect the flight deck (from bad actors in the cabin) during the 30 seconds the door is open as one pilot exists/enters and the flight attendant enters/exits.
WearyMatter@reddit
After 20 years in the airlines, I am plum out of thoughts.
moaningpilot@reddit
From a country where if the pilot needs to leave the flight deck they check the camera/spy hole and leave the flight deck this just seems unnecessary. The door is open for less than 5 seconds and the pilot can slip out and into the bathroom with no one noticing.
To me this (and the procedure where the FA parks a cart in the aisle) just screams āHey guys weāre opening the flight deck doorā.
AngryCamelTeeth@reddit
Donāt forget the flight attendant that slips in all thanks to 1 single asshole pilot that locked the door when the other pilot was using the bathroom and intentionally crashed the plane.
Again, like that flight attendant is going to stop a would be suicidal maniac. All security theater.
Pinkbunnies66@reddit
I've never seen so many down votes for comments on one profile lmao
MontgomeryEagle@reddit
This is an actual good rule. It is insane that EASA hasn't mandated this and even more insane that Lufthansa Group quietly went back to allowing single pilot.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
It's a security theatre. Unless there is a qualified pilot at the controls that replaces the pilot, who goes for a toilet break, the cabin crew standing in the cockpit or sitting in the jumpseat can do precisely zero to prevent a malicious act by the other pilot.
Umbongo_congo@reddit
But they could admit the pooping pilot when the flying pilot has a seizure and flails hitting the deny entry switch and almost kicks off the automatics with rudder input from seizure stamping the pedals.
evilmonkey853@reddit
They can open the door
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Really, after you've done a -2g or +3g violent manouvre?
I'd like to see it.
MontgomeryEagle@reddit
The FA puts a seatbelt on.
evilmonkey853@reddit
A slight chance is better than no chance at all.
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
germanwings happened because the pilot was a fucking coward. zero chance heād have the gumption to actually murder someone with their bare hands (which is what youād need to do to stop them from stopping you). he took the easy way out because he didnāt need to actually see or experience the people in the back screaming in terror. it was all very theoretical and insulated.
clearly it isnāt 100% effective, maybe next time heāll bring his spear gun. but itās a pretty fucking big deterrent that would almost certainly have caused him to commit suicide without also committing murder
CommuterType@reddit
The FAās job is to open the door an let in someone who has a chance of stopping the suicidal maniac
ce402@reddit
That was SOP in the US long before Germanwings.
Actually, when that happened I was shocked to learn it wasn't SOP everywhere.
AngryCamelTeeth@reddit
I was flying for my job a lot before that incident. I was often in business and never saw them do that prior.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Exactly.
SATSewerTube@reddit
Iāve participated in some practical exercises; youād be surprised how quickly and easily it can be done. Iām not one for security theater and drama but it was pretty eye opening to see it in person.
moaningpilot@reddit
I actually have, twice. I have been part of counter terrorism exercises both as a āvictimā participant and more recently as an advisor to increase realism.
kaiju505@reddit
What if I want coffee? Will there be a tertiary cockpit door? What if the crew is disabled, how will the guy in 26B with over 1000hrs on msfsX land the jet?
AmdiralArdVark@reddit
Can I hang a bucket of hay for the pilots to feed on while they fly?
SunnyCloud2@reddit
Yet there have been more accidents caused intentionally by pilots than passengers taking over the cockpit.
BigLezThePilot@reddit
A friend of mine is a wide body captain. For the first time in his long career, some huge loon rushed the cabin. Iām sure he would have enjoyed having this on the plane. For the 99.9999% of his other flights that went fine I bet he would think this is unnecessary
immaterial737-@reddit
I thought it was going to let me piss without all the theatrics.
Turns out its going to make taking a piss even harder.
Fuck_Me_If_Im_Wrong_@reddit
I personally think they need to add a DMZ with razor wire, a trench, and mines
elaxation@reddit
As if I, a flight attendant, needed one more thing for my fucking pantyhose to snag on near my jumpseat
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Add to that a pilot waving their gun in their hand, pointing it at passengers, while wearing cowboy boots, and you're all set.
boomeradf@reddit
I recently flew on an Alaskan flight and the captain had on cowboy boots.
It gave me both confidence and a tad bit of excitement for the flight. Sadly it was a routine flight.
nascent_aviator@reddit
Or an MZ with razor wire, trenches, mines, and dozens of armed soldiers.
Fuck_Me_If_Im_Wrong_@reddit
If I donāt see Brodie helmets and Lewis guns looking back at when when I bust open my Biscoff cookies, Iām asking for a refund
nascent_aviator@reddit
Some automated turrets would be nice too. But I'm lead to believe there are not yet any that are FAA certified for use in part 25 aircraft.
DandierThanYou@reddit
Theyāre working very hard to solve precisely what problem??
AngryCamelTeeth@reddit
So how many people have tried to storm the cockpit in the last 25 years? This seems like a waste of time and money.
That beverage cart and 105lb flight attendant isnāt a deterrent at all. There isnāt an epidemic of would be hijackers living in total depression because they canāt figure out how to beat Melissa and her shield of coke products.
HoldinTheBag@reddit
A 105 pound flight attendant? Thats how much our flight attendants legs weigh
inzanehanson@reddit
Bro šš
ValuableJumpy8208@reddit
Must be United
l_rufus_californicus@reddit
Pure fearmongering. Gotta keep the proles afraid to keep them in line.
tomdarch@reddit
Security theater. It looks like we are "doing something."
PhilRubdiez@reddit
How else would you justify their budget?
livebeta@reddit
I was an Alien Flight Student and changed CFI 6 times during primary
I had to pay the security screening fee six times, too. It made no sense at all. I doubt they really rescreened me either.
andrewclarkson@reddit
IMHO the simple knowledge of what happened on 9/11 makes such an attack basically impossible now. Any attempt to hijack an airliner will be met by every able bodied person onboard fighting for their lives to stop the hijackers.
OTOH we've seen cases(Germanwings 9525) where locking cockpit doors have been used to help facilitate one of today's big threats- suicide by pilot.
I'm not a commercial guy but to me this seems like institutions wanting to tick a box to prove they 'took measures' to stop something whether or not those measures actually make sense.
Spirited-Problem2607@reddit
Out of curiosity, if this door is added and the pilots are enabled access to the current door, wouldn't that fix the Germanwings 9525 issue?
BLARTYMACMUFFIN@reddit
Over 50 attempts since, you know, the worst terrorist attack on the United States
SirButcher@reddit
We had significantly more terrorist attacks using cars and yet (thank god) nobody wants to do this absurd security theatre around cars...
primalbluewolf@reddit
Because car operators have a spine and would lynch the politicians responsible. Aircraft operators do not and won't.Ā
JediCheese@reddit
There's bollards at many spots now.Ā They make them in all different flavors to blend in.
BLARTYMACMUFFIN@reddit
I was unaware a hijacked car could kill 3,000 people, like 9/11.
SirButcher@reddit
Oh, I didn't know there was a line in the sand! Please, define then how many people have to die until we care about it.
-Badger3-@reddit
60 people were killed in the 2017 Los Vegas shooting, so I guess 61?
RegionalJet@reddit
A beverage cart is enough to slow someone down in a tight space, which buys time. I'm surprised how many pilots here are saying it's useless.
AngryCamelTeeth@reddit
Anyone in half decent shape gets over that in 2 seconds. A dedicated terrorist would train jumping something like that and have it down to a science.
RegionalJet@reddit
Normally, yeah. But it would not be easy to get over that obstacle in a tight aisle with a low ceiling. And to do that while tumbling over the FA before the door closes.Ā
btgeekboy@reddit
The eyes and voice of the FA are the helpful part.
WhatsUpSkysUp@reddit
Literally 0. There have been cases of people banging on the cockpit door mid flight, but these are all cases of mental health issues and going through a mental health episode.
videopro10@reddit
it happens now and then
Robie_John@reddit
LMAO
LikeASir33@reddit
Dumb. Just use a giant log on ropesā¦ Ewok style
Twix2247@reddit
Looks like an adult baby gate.
derdubb@reddit
Looks like a corral for cows and hogs
Shallowbrook6367@reddit
Will it be electrified?
DatBeigeBoy@reddit
Thatās fucking stupid.
balajimurali85@reddit
All a big conspiracy to bring in pilotless aircrafts. Slowly theyāll jack up incidents affecting cockpit integrity and one day do away with pilots onboard for āpassengerās safetyā.
Ok-Substance9110@reddit
Google āproject dragonflyā
balajimurali85@reddit
Ya, I am aware of the project. But how to get people acceptance? Unless you tell them that is for their safety?
tehlastcanadian@reddit
I don't get why ALPA is pushing this so hard. What a waste of money
554TangoAlpha@reddit
Ya this is one of the biggest things I disagree with ALPA on
ApprehensiveCode5812@reddit
ALPA is pushing this? I donāt know a single ALPA pilot that thinks these are a good idea
New_Wolverine_2415@reddit
I would love to know why this is not a good idea.
TellmSteveDave@reddit
Youāre not going to get anything useful on this sub. People know actually know what theyāre talking about are the extreme minority.
A secondary door has been an issue that pilot groups have been pushing for years. Everyone I know is either in favor or indifferent.
ApprehensiveCode5812@reddit
If youāre one of āthoseā captains, you might just be flying with a bunch of yes men, who go along, to get along.
TellmSteveDave@reddit
Iāve rarely met another pilot, let alone a captain, who wonāt sport bitch about anything and everything.
āGo along to get alongā doesnāt really fit the profile of most airline pilotsā¦save for management types.
BLARTYMACMUFFIN@reddit
Are you an ALPA pilot?
ALPA has been behind this for 20 years, and very vocal about it. Really tough to miss
ApprehensiveCode5812@reddit
Yes, me and everyone else I work with think itās dumb as hell and a massive waste of resources. Itās already enough of a pain in the ass trying to take a lav break. The system in place is perfectly fine.
tehlastcanadian@reddit
Then why'd you ask if ALPA was pushing it? They are, numerous posts and articles posted about it from ALPA National
ApprehensiveCode5812@reddit
I get so much junk mail from ALAP, AOPA, EAA, etc. I donāt read most of the stuff I get.
mitch_kramer@reddit
What ALPA as an organization and individual ALPA members care about are completely different. I have received many emails from ALPA that talk about these barriers.Ā
ApprehensiveCode5812@reddit
It seemed like ALPA generally listened to its member base. More so than other unions. Like how ALPA really pushed back on raising retirement to 67. I guess I need to start filling out their questionnaires. ALPA pushing for this garbage is a waste of my unions. How about better interpretation of 117 rules. Like how certain regionals are forcing their pilots to call in fatigued for 2 hour extensions, and if found to not be operationally induced the crew gets a no-show.
Field_Sweeper@reddit
Well, that's gonna get someone trapped in a situation one day.
Kellykeli@reddit
This wonāt stop anyone who could make their way through a reinforced cockpit door but it would certainly make evacuations a nightmare
This is almost 100% just a guy who owns a company and is friends with someone in high places who would certainly not hand them an exclusive government contract worth billions
SkunkedUp@reddit
Howās this going to work on a CRJ?
minfremi@reddit
Similarly, the ERJ, with a single lav in the back.
hawkersaurus@reddit
Give crews empty Gatorade bottles. Pay the rampers a little extra for dealing with piss bottles thrown out of the cockpit windows.
Educational_Clothes2@reddit
Has there been an increase in cockpit breaches since 9/11?
cheng-alvin@reddit
Wow gone are the days that we had trust in society
These-Bedroom-5694@reddit
How does this stop the pilot turning off the engines?
tracernz@reddit
Youāre right. We need an electrified wire cage over those too.
ImminentDebacle@reddit
Two thoughts.
1) Has there been bathroom break hijackings I'm not aware of?
2) As soon as a passenger or crew member get sliced up in one of those contraptions, the lawsuit will ensure these go away forever.
One-Sundae-2711@reddit
pretty soon it will legit con airā¦ wtf happened to the friendly skiesš¤£
PlaneShenaniganz@reddit
3,000 people died in a single day because of cockpit breaches. It was long enough ago that it isn't actively on anyone's mind anymore, but secondary barriers are pretty simple and relatively cheap to implement. "But how many breaches have been attempted in the last 25 years?" It only takes one successful breach for the unthinkable...
We finally have a proactive (or reactive, depending on how you look at it) safety measure in aviation. Let's get it implemented!
Buzz407@reddit
How about a motion sensor and a bigass hammer on a robotic arm?
Does this qualify me to be a member of the good idea committee?
pte_parts69420@reddit
The jackass high-five hand perhaps?
IndependenceStock417@reddit
I'd love to see someone get their ass smacked all the way to the back of the plane.
cptnpiccard@reddit
Hammer is too heavy, just put a big spring and a sunroof. If yoinks the invader into the sky.
Buzz407@reddit
Hmm. How many CFM of bleed air can we get for 5 seconds?
brucebrowde@reddit
Only if you can guarantee the hammer will hit the target in the balls at least 90% of the time.
Buzz407@reddit
Otherwise what's the point?
brucebrowde@reddit
You're hired!
jpgPGH@reddit
Please tell me it's electrified.
darthcoder@reddit
A lot of planes i flew on post 9/11 had this.
Weird I haven't seen it lately.
StarlightLifter@reddit
Looks like IKEA designed it and as someone with lots of IKEA furnitureā¦ wouldnāt trust it for a minute
Perk_i@reddit
How many exits does that block in the event it's stuck up during an emergency landing?
GeneralSteelX@reddit
Is this legit or a joke
ebfortin@reddit
In aviatio history since 2001 there were more pilot that barricaded themselves in the cockpit to crash the airplane than people that were able to get access to the cockpit by force. So my verdict : dubious usefulness.
doug_masters@reddit
We all know the safest way is abstinence. So letās just not try penetrating the cockpit door mmmkay.
Also that looks like some bullshit IKEA product.
Verytas7@reddit
I immediately thought of those nanofibers from the "Three Body Problem".
Germainshalhope@reddit
Same
Liqu0rBaIISandwich@reddit
Iām glad ALPA is super worried about this when my companies pay is dog shit on a years expired contract.
nocab66@reddit
Why advertise that one pilot is out?
Insaneclown271@reddit
Ridiculous. Overkill. What is this even based on recently?
Throwawayyacc22@reddit
I think there should be a third door, but a trapdoor, and it opens up, below are a pit of crocodiles.
Ooh or maybe a pressure plate that when triggered comically drops a piano on the head of the person that pressed it
Critical_Reserve_123@reddit
This will not even work for all planes.
120SR@reddit
Why is ALPA pushing for this?
Replubic@reddit
Was there an incident? Doesnāt gov only make changes after incidents occur?
Kevyon385@reddit
Looks like shit!
Burgershot621@reddit
Ejecto Seato cuz!!!
Green420Basturd@reddit
There's no way to do this on the E170's and E175's.
Pilot_BillF@reddit
Great. One more thing to break on go home day.
DiligentCredit9222@reddit
Just pull up the nose until you have 45 degrees pitch. This will keep intruders out of the cockpit.
Pilot_BillF@reddit
You clearly donāt Airbusā¦
wt1j@reddit
This because when the pilots use the bathroom the protocol is to have the FAs barricade the area, which is awkward and ineffective.
flapsnslats98@reddit
If someone is really set on busting into the flight deck, I struggle to see how this would really stop anything. Might be useful on Spirit and thats about it.
CavalrySavagery@reddit
You can always go even further beyond. The retardness is over 9000000
butthole_lipliner@reddit
This should be shoved so far down the priority list, where are those 25 hour CVR retrofits the FAA approved eons ago????
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
If pilots werenāt so selfish and carried their own Home Depot bucket with them this would be a solved issue. No need to discuss secondary barriers when the primary is always closed and locked.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
To be fair, it would be nice to have forward toilet be a part of the cockpit, like on some 747s, rather than it being shared with the passengers.
pte_parts69420@reddit
Best we can do is the piss tube from a king air
mustang__1@reddit
My penis always itches after I use those.
It itched before too, but now it really itches.
nascent_aviator@reddit
And thanks to you, so does the next guy's. š«”
kdegraaf@reddit
I think old Swigert gave me the clap.
pte_parts69420@reddit
But dr house said you canāt get it from a toilet seat, and a piss tube is just like a toilet seat
J0E_Blow@reddit
What do you mean they canāt just open the window or cockpit escape hatch and relieve themselves through it?
TenderfootGungi@reddit
Truck driver use an empty orange juice jug.
Robie_John@reddit
Purewick and condom caths for the win!
827020@reddit
Ahhh the old vag hotdog. I was in a bedside care/clinical role in hospitals when they first implemented those... a period of my life that makes bad flying days seem like a joke
thabc@reddit
Isn't this why cross country is part of PPL? You need to learn this skill early.
RomiumRom@reddit
A cockpit, what is it?
LigerSixOne@reddit
Is two really enough? This will be like disposable razors in the late 90ās.
TheKgbWillWaitForNo1@reddit
It would be more effective to simply not allow passengers into the plane anymore.
user001254300@reddit
This isnāt just some people drafting up ideas at the FAA btw, it was the result of an advocacy group of the victims after 9/11 going through congress to mandate something without really any regard to how aviation works. Itās been such a pain in the *** for airlines.
cattleman706@reddit
How about a tube that goes up the pilots asshole?
horse-boy1@reddit
Is that electrified? š
indecision_killingme@reddit
Is this a joke? Looks stupidĀ
Available_Canary_536@reddit
I'm sure it costs about 10k plus installation and annual maintenance.
Excellent-Shame-1665@reddit
Instead of a cage door, they should open up a trap door in its place whenever the pilot needs to exit to use the bathroom.
powerflexx@reddit
Plane from R6 map vibes
Machaltstars@reddit
I'm shocked at the amount of US airline pilots who are ambivalent or outright against this, are memories so short we're forgetting 9/11???? This is a huge step above putting a poor flight attendant in the way of a cockpit breach, who's supposed to sacrifice herself behind a galley cart to protect the door. Like another poster said, the mockups from Boeing are much more substantial than the wires shown here, but either way, the goal is to just buy enough time to secure the actual flight deck door. Additionally, if I understand the procedures correctly this will only require 1 FA to do lav breaks, instead of the 2 currently to guard the car and enter the flight deck as the second person, with this one FA can shut the secondary barrier, and then also be the one to be the second person on the flight deck
Knot_a_porn_acct@reddit
Just give the flight attendants guns and have them stand guard
zcar28@reddit
Jokes on you, my plane doesnāt have a front bathroom.Ā
pessimus_even@reddit
Why not just turn on the fasten seatbelts sign, make the rest of the flight crew sit down and buckle up and lock the seatbelts from the cockpit?Ā
tempskawt@reddit
FAs just need those BolaWrap things
RoyalBak@reddit
That cheese grate attached to the plastic frame of the plane will not stop a beverage cart pushed by a person trying to get in. Somebody is getting very rich and not spending a dime on this setup
skeptical-speculator@reddit
Where are all the people that usually show up and say, "rEgUlAtIoNs ArE wRiTtEn In BlOoD"?
Rich-Cucumber-5821@reddit
This just shows that there are still too many government employees if they have time to entertain this.
Von_Bernkastel@reddit
How fast do you think a skinny person just slip through?!
machinaexmente@reddit
FAA has been loopy for decades.
Milktoast27@reddit
Would rather have them spend energy and resources on opposing 67 and single pilot.
Milktoast27@reddit
Would rather have them spend energy and resources on opposing 67 and single pilot.
WhatsUpSkysUp@reddit
You Americans are the most paranoid mfs out there. In South america, you are allowed to bring liquids of any amount domestically. When the pilot uses the bathroom, the cockpit door is just left wide open. Lmao.
shaun3000@reddit
Gee, I wonder why? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01987/Sept-11-plane-grab_1987483i.jpg
WhatsUpSkysUp@reddit
This shit happened almost 3 decades ago. Get over it pal
WeHaveBetterSexThanU@reddit
Yes we are!
JM120897@reddit
Mass is a precious enough resource on the plane to be wasting it on such thing
JetKeel@reddit
Somehow keeping pilots in a cage when they are going to the bathroom just feels right.
trawkins@reddit
Itās really to protect the visitors. If I take the time and effort to get up Iām leaving the lav like a scene from Jurassic Park.
trawkins@reddit
Itās really to protect the visitors. If I take the time and effort to get up Iām leaving the lav like a scene from Jurassic Park.
flyingwithfish24@reddit
What are they trying to protect themselves from??? Radical velociraptors???
Zestyclose_Sell_9460@reddit
And the occasional rabid triceratops!!
81dank@reddit
This needs to be highly electrified to be useful
Electrical_Rate1026@reddit
I always thought about that. When a pilot exists for toilet visit there is always a risk for a potential stormingā¦. This is good news!
BaasharJAlAlawneh@reddit
Without these, flight attendants are supposed to block the aisle with a service cart and their bodies any time the cockpit door is opened.
AKcargopilot@reddit
This does nothing to defend from babies
_DeeGee@reddit
Looks like some junk my hoarder uncle refuses to get rid of.
aviatortrevor@reddit
I'm more worried about the guy that sits on the other side of that door with a gun legally in his possession.
time_adc@reddit
Just give the pilots katana swords and then you don't need any doors at all.
RoughConqureor@reddit
There should be pressure plates and arrows shoot from holes in the wall like in Indiana Jones.
ExtremePast@reddit
This is pointless. JetBlue just puts the galley cart in front of the aisle to block things off. That seems more than suitable.
Can_Not_Double_Dutch@reddit
Other airlines do the same thing
BravoDotCom@reddit
Give the pilots a pee-pee pistol with a big tag on it that says āBathroomā so only one can go at a time and the principal will know you had permission.
JoeyD54@reddit
Can't wait for the next time I fly commercially and the first thing I see is someone in uniform next to a wire cage. I'll feel so welcomed. Totally not jail.
Rictor_Scale@reddit
Can't wait for the first video of an Air Pakistan pilot trapped in there.
N420BZ@reddit
If I understand correctly, this could eliminate the need for coordinating a lav break with the FAs.
If thatās the case, Iām all for it.Ā
ApprehensiveCode5812@reddit
It doesnāt eliminate the need for the FA to be upfront. The FA is there to do āsomethingā in the event of another Germanwings Flight 9525ā¦
EdBasqueMaster@reddit
Thatās the worst part. It doesnāt! It doesnāt change anything (at least for my company) except make things more of a pain in the ass for everyone involved.
fly-guy@reddit
So glad my airline abolished the two person rule. I can just go and pee when I want. I guess there still is trust in the pilots in my company.Ā
N420BZ@reddit
Whenever I jump on cargo airlines, Iām jealous of their ability to take breaks whenever they want.Ā
SATSewerTube@reddit
Still gotta have one of the FAs set it up and two people up front during lav breaks.
N420BZ@reddit
Oof. In that case, itās dumb.Ā
SirRexberger@reddit
It wouldnāt be secure the whole flight. The same rules apply for the lav breaks as before. One FA switches with flight crew, and one FA guards the door in the galley. The only thing that changes is there is a weird door rather than the galley cart.
N420BZ@reddit
Interesting. I know the fleet manager at my airline hinted about possible changing the procedure.
But if it doesnāt change, the second barrier is dumb.Ā
takeoffconfig@reddit
the only shitter on my jet is in the back so what do we do?
John_Sobieski22@reddit
They should seal the cockpit off completely and load the flight crew in from the top
No need for doors to the main cabin
Include a lav in the cockpit area so they have no reason to leave
duggybubby@reddit
These will go away as soon as first class customers start complaining
sirduckbert@reddit
Letās just handcuff all passengers to their seats and sedate them. Naked with no luggage. Then we will be safe
mustang__1@reddit
Why did that get me a little aroused. Like, not full throttle by any means.... But definitely not idle either
sirduckbert@reddit
Note to self: this person can not be employed by my future airline
mustang__1@reddit
What, you wanna recite bible verse or something?
ataphelion@reddit
I work on a narrow body manufacturer where these are being installed for aircraft delivery and the ones I've seen so far are a full bi-fold door. I'm not sure what planes already in service will be like, though, since some interiors will need to add partitions to span the full width.
Scorpior3flex@reddit
So what's happens when the pilots need sto evac too I know the windows but would this limit the evac and also what,about suicidal pilots if no one could get it. So far no one could get into the cockpit since 9-11 so the doors work why change it?!
kinglax08@reddit
Every example I have seen, whether wire like this or a rigid door/gate, doesnāt seem to have a control to prevent passengers from closing the gate. In my head I am imagining the VASAviation go-around and hold videos with some kid or āthat guyā who decides to close it and lock themselves in purgatory on approach.
elkab0ng@reddit
Itās to prevent a problem - hijackings - that passengers now understand differently (ask the shoe bomber or underwear bomber)
Itās dreadful to say it, but aviation is so safe now that the last couple decadesā¦ germanwings, air Egypt, maybe the India one.. Iām not sure making the pilots feel even more isolated and - thanks, Nathan - unable to talk about problems (hello, question 14 on the medical form)
Is this gonna make anything safer, even in the most edge-case statistical analysis? I donāt think so.
Also would make flying as a passenger feel even more prison-like. I would love to hear FAās take on this.
GummoRabbit@reddit
It's a matter of degree of effectiveness. Is THIS door effective? Probably to some degree, even if bad or not ideal. This doesn't mean the idea of a secondary barrier is a bad idea altogether. I for one, am a big advocate of the idea, along with ALPA. Anything to slow down an intruder is better than nothing at all, and ime, would be more effective than an old FA who is more busy storing something in the galley than keeping an firm eye on cabin activity, which is the current standard.
The time that door is open always seems very risky to me. I'm not at all convinced a future hijacking will not occur in the future based on current practices.
smart_bear6@reddit
If they really wanna prevent hijackings give every pilot a gun.
Oliver10110@reddit
That used to be a thing. https://youtu.be/0zJP89orlbc?si=vX8rtFNjTvClYiXH
CaliAv8rix@reddit
It doesnāt even go all the way up. Just climb over it, it has wire steps.
SparrowFate@reddit
I mean the point isnāt to be an impenetrable shield. The door is more than enough for that. This is to be used when a pilot has to open the door for various reasons mid flight. Like using the restroom. Itās a speed bump to give the remaining pilot time to close the door if someone does decide to rush the cockpit.
Ya itās a bit silly. But it probably is effective at what itās trying to do.
CaliAv8rix@reddit
Yeah I get that, but at least extend it or make it chicken wire or something that isnāt so laughably easy to just simply climb over.
skyHawk3613@reddit
Stupid
anotherquack@reddit
Everyone should be shackled to the floor while pilot leaves the flight deck
cirroc0@reddit
"We keep you alive to serve this ship. Flap well...and live!"
corysphotos19@reddit
How is this gonna work when a lot of planes have the toilet near the cockpit door?
eishethel@reddit
At some point theyāll get the idea of incorporating a toilet into the flight deck seats.
The person suggesting it will be defenestrated.
Another will suggest a toilet for the jump seat. Also the same fate of the first.
Then theyāll make a weird choice to put a second door on one lav, no one will be happy, and like a curse, will force it onto test groups.
NoDistribution9217@reddit
No need for it. Stupid mandate
SmithKenichi@reddit
No razor wire or electrification? I don't know how they could possibly think this was secure enough.
BlackWicking@reddit
the door is bullet resistant, and there are camerasā¦. if you need more it will come as a force shield or automated turrets, this is a waste of space and mass. IF it passes, will it be on the minimum equipment list?
ShotFaithlessness201@reddit
Don't you see you can climb over seems cheap and easy to break
Human_Pangolin94@reddit
Wouldn't a porta-potty in the cockpit be cheaper?
wraith_majestic@reddit
Soā¦ the upgraded cockpit doors seem to have been effective since ~2002? Was there some event I missed which makes this necessary?
-Firm-Tap-@reddit
This is beyond idiotic. Unreal that we as people accept this. The door is locked. We haven't had a problem. These greedy assholes are just looking for ways to sell the government. Someone needs to look up the manufacture of this and do a full investigation and see where their connections are.
R_U_S3RIEOUS@reddit
Why, do they think we are unsafe because of pissing off the world?
Final-Muscle-7196@reddit
Sounds like they need them at every exit door
Brambleshire@reddit
I'd rather ALPA spend their dollars and man hours on things like mental health and fatigue loopholes.
stickwigler@reddit
Crazy, wonder what company is about to make billions for this installation.
tommy_b_777@reddit
will the gap at the top be big enough to climb over everywhere, or just on some planes...
probablyaythrowaway@reddit
But how do I go poop?
Fisherman_30@reddit
Are there actually any incidents of people being able to breach modern flight deck doors? It already seems pretty solid to me.
Cxopilot@reddit
Itās stupid.
Misfit_somewhere@reddit
Just have the pilot announce that he's going to the washroom and the autopilot is set to drop the plane into the ground in 5 minutes if he isn't back. /s
More_Than_I_Can_Chew@reddit
JFC.
J2ADA@reddit
I take it someone tried something stupid, which will now result in this?
GMTMaster_II@reddit
So how we getting to the bathroom
Coprolite_Gummybear@reddit
This is like first grader level problem solving
TobyADev@reddit
And thisāll doā¦. Nothing? Agreed?
Secret_Poet7340@reddit
Bucket of lava above the door?
F1shermanIvan@reddit
My passengers donāt even go through security.
This is theatre, IMO.
nascent_aviator@reddit
For what it's worth, it's only for 121s.
-burnr-@reddit
Fisherman works for the Canadian equivilent of a 121 (CAR 705).
nascent_aviator@reddit
Gotcha, thanks!
JijiSpitz@reddit
What problem does this rule help to solve?
Inappropriate_Bridge@reddit
Just replace the cockpit seats with commodes. Problem solved - and with no new doors!
thewindow6@reddit
This could be assessed for necessity by working out how many hijackings, or even hijacking attempt, have occurred due to pilots opening the cockpit door to go to the toilet, which this measure would have prevented. I suspect the number is zero but if anyone knows better Iād be interested to hear about it
No_Mathematician2527@reddit
I'm a little concerned. The install instructions say to wire it directly to APU unregulated power.
From what I remember that's what we used in JP for the big ones, we call it big boy volts.
Anyway I'm concerned that the electrified "courtesy nets" will interfere with radio reception. We are talking 4 by 4 at best now, it's BS.
JimTheJerseyGuy@reddit
This looks like the dumbest idea ever. Why? Has there been any credible threat that one reinforced door would not stop? Have passengers suddenly forgotten the lessons of 9/11?
oh_helloghost@reddit
Considering everyone is so hell bent on single pilot ops, they sure are trying hard to keep us in there.
christopher_mtrl@reddit
Considering the amount of deaths from pilot suicide in the last 10 years (4U 9525, MH 11, MU 5735, AI 182 in all likeliness), or say, FAA own inadequate oversight of aircraft manufacturers and lax certification policies(JT 610 and ET302), I'd say that they are conviniently focusing on stupid but visible measures. Gotta keep that "I'm busy" look.
WeHaveBetterSexThanU@reddit
With you. Seems like allowing pilots to seek treatment for depression might be a much better way to save lives.
PerfectEnemy182@reddit
This is some 3 Body Problem shit right here
FL060@reddit
The 73 and 78 secondary doors are solid with just a small hole to peek out through. Not sure what these wires would do.
podrick215@reddit
Itās an extra barrier for when the flight deck door is open in flight.
FL060@reddit
I don't think you understood my comment. I understand that these wires are a secondary barrier, but look completely useless.
The videos and pictures of the 73 and 78 barriers that I have seen (via quarterly training) are solid doors, with a small window to view the cabin.
podrick215@reddit
Yea I was surprised by this picture, my airline has secondary barriers on our 330ās that are solid bars.
Twa747@reddit
Havenāt seen the 73 work up yet thatās going to be a Jerry rigged cluster fuck
SATSewerTube@reddit
Just like the 737!!!
cptnpiccard@reddit
Seeing as the FAA is exceedingly adept at knee-jerk-reacting to everything, what is this in relation to? Has there been a flight deck intrusion recently?
AIRdomination@reddit
I didnāt think real pilots out there actually thought this was useful. This is so stupid and no one asked for this.
coder7426@reddit
Looks like you can put a food on the counter on the right and go right over the top.
Turbulent-Mud-5320@reddit
So dumb. No one asked for this
BLARTYMACMUFFIN@reddit
9/11 commission asked for it actually
ImpromptuFanfiction@reddit
Who cares. Commercial has been awful for a very long time. Now I can fly planes and bring luggage with me without getting groped by a minimum wage government stooge.
Dependent-Place-4795@reddit
What
ImpromptuFanfiction@reddit
Iām a sport pilot. MOSAIC passed so I can fly planes that I can actually travel with now. I donāt need my toothpaste swabbed for bomb residue on my way to my grandmothers last moments in hospice. I donāt need my crotch to be pat down in line on the way to funerals and family vacations. I am tired of people being treated baseline like criminals whenever we want to fly commercial. Seeing this is simply a continuation of our deranged attempts to corral people in the name of safety. Thatās all.
fmrx@reddit
It gives you a few seconds more to get the door closed when we leave and enter the FD. I think itās a great idea. Itās a lot better than a curtain.
FRICKENOSSOM@reddit
Absolutely valuable. The secondary barrier virtually eliminates the possibility of someone storming the cockpit while pilots are exiting. Previously we might have a 70 YO, 50 kg flight attendant āblocking.ā
Mazer1415@reddit
Security theater. Lipstick on a pigā¦
podrick215@reddit
I couldnāt disagree more.
Riddickullous@reddit
Maybe it's just targeting making passengers uncomfortable (to put it nicely)... Instill a "getto vibe" in every flight... And make things difficult and more expensive for everyone...
ce402@reddit
This has been a mandate for 20+ years.
Airlines have been doing their best to delay implementation for two decades. The galley cart "barrier" was only meant to be a temporary solution.
At this point its the principle, IMHO.
AMEFOD@reddit
How long before some chuckle fuck suggests racking and sedating the passengers before flight earnestly?
WhatsUpSkysUp@reddit
Imagine having the flight attendants set this up every time I need to take a piss lmao. Sometimes I take 2 or 3 pisses mid flight.
WhatsUpSkysUp@reddit
Security theater like TSA. There has literally never been another attempted hijacking in the USA ever since 9/11. This is a waste of money, time, and expense. And before you post a couple of videos of people banging on the cockpit door mid flight, no these aren't terrorists. These are people going through a mental health episode.
GeologistPositive@reddit
How else are they supposed to protect the pax from feral pilots just wandering out from the cockpit?
Bind_Moggled@reddit
Security theatre, gotta love it.
Wemest@reddit
Sounds like a government solution to a nonproblem.
nft-red@reddit
The barbed wire. The classic prison plane
velvet_funtime@reddit
is that for slicing people when the thrust reversers get activated?
CT-1065@reddit
just get those indiana jones booby traps and train the flight crew on how to avoid setting it off, that way any potential hijacker gets pumped full of toxin laced arrows and bashed by a small boulder
tobascodagama@reddit
Only the penitent man may piss.
Cant_Work_On_Reddit@reddit
I thought this was some shitty doggie door in an RV at first
Robie_John@reddit
LOL...absurd.
timfountain4444@reddit
Waste of time and money.
pte_parts69420@reddit
Are those push pins on the left side? Cause they look a lot like push pins
buriedupsidedown@reddit
I heard their gonna lock the passengers in on the 200 /s
LPNTed@reddit
How are the airlines going to use this to further penalize the flying public with yet more increased cost?
gregarious119@reddit
Quick - someone do the math on how much weight this will add to each plane's ZFW and come up with the difference in fuel expended over the course of a year. r/theydidthemath
Airbusa3@reddit
Hey at least itāll avoid people peaking into the flight deck when disembarking and boarding haha
Ludicrous_speed77@reddit
It will just buy you enough time to close the flight deck door if somebody rushes the cockpit.
FinbarJG@reddit
Electrified? /s
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
The FAA is now mandating a secondary cockpit cage door between the galley and front bathroom for when a pilot needs to exit to use the bathroom, by next year.
Is this even useful?
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