He’s been saying this for months, there’s no reason to wait until September. Macron loves to say one thing and do another, he was born to be a politician.
Time to shit or get off the pot buddy.
It’s generally a mistake. A country with set boundaries has a preset condition. A country to be recognized later has whatever random boundaries that might get negotiated eventually.
They’re not set. Nobody on either side accepts the armistice lines. Israel has their new plan of Greater Judea & Samaria, jihadis have their plan of no Israel at all. Neither is going to play fair. Neither is going to accept anything near ‘67.
Sure would help if France would recognize something now.
Hamas is an unseated party acting in what is officially open rebellion against the last “elected” government. They’re at much at war with the PLO as with Israel. They’re in a pseudo state of both being the elected regional government and at war with their federal government.
I highly doubt they would actually stop attacks. They might change the name of what jihadi group is sending missiles, if given the chance.
Last I read from Hamas, the plan is to keep some of the experts alive from Israel to teach Palestinians how to use the land effectively after liquidating Israel.
Hamas was the last elected government. The 2006 election they won was federal. It was the [US and Israeli backed coup attempt by Fatah](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/04/gaza200804) that resulted in Hamas only governing the Gaza Strip.
Hamas did not win a majority, they had a falling out and were not seated. They then made deals with anyone with weapons in Gaza, murdered their way to regional dictatorship. Bit more complicated than Hamas is the government.
Technically true, because they won a plurality (a majority has to be above 50%, a plurality is just more than the rest). But you missed that the P.A tried to coup them right before they killed Fatah politicians, and their only airport was bombed.
Dictators all around. Hamas played fair and was rug pulled by other Palestinians. At that point it’s legitimate to go to gangland warfare against the entire PLO.
Not really legitimate not to have local elections anymore if claiming mandate of the people though, by anyone.
Definitely on the international “observers” for not enforcing elections. There’s no point in having outside observers if nobody is keeping the count honest and officiating rules.
They won the right to form the government. Immediately tried to form a coalition government with all other elected groups, including Fatah. Fatah refused.
The point missing is that there was never any chance of being a majority stake. We can say elections should have been enforced, but nobody was willing to kill people to make it happen.
They chose to go full dictatorship, same as everyone else. No more elections, no actual way to hold leadership accountable.
Hamas never opposed elections. Hamas would need the PA involved because it would have to be for all of Palestine. And the two times Hamas and Fatah planned to hold elections, in 2015 and 2021, they ultimately didn’t happen because of Israeli interference and Fatah backing out.
So, until the general dictatorship has elections, the breakaway province has to stay a dictatorship? None of that is true. Powers that be choose to retain perpetual power.
Israel as a belligerent, traditional enemy, would definitely not want legitimacy of government. If they want to stop it, probably important somehow to external parties. The answer can’t be not to hold elections, then blame Israel. Outsiders are not going to care why.
>So, until the general dictatorship has elections, the breakaway province has to stay a dictatorship?
Funny how the party that won the single election held is a breakaway province and a dictatorship, but the party that led a coup after losing said election and has not held an election since due to *foreign involvement* is seen as the more legitimate party.
Of course they choose to hold power in the way that they do, but their flimsy justifications can be easily refuted, but it never is because it would involve giving Palestinians a tiny shred of self determination.
They didn’t win , they didn’t have majority. What happened is they won more seats than expected and got rug pulled. Nobody important was willing to force it.
All sides went to dictatorship. That’s an out and out fact. Rule without elections, by edict, always better than the governed.
The elections were literally self determination. The people who rug pulled were Palestinians. That makes it an internal issue that nobody cared enough to force resolution on.
>They didn’t win , they didn’t have majority. What happened is they won more seats than expected and got rug pulled.
And a group that won less seats attempted a coup.
>All sides went to dictatorship. That’s an out and out fact. Rule without elections, by edict, always better than the governed.
See my previous point about the flimsy excuses and the ease of debunking them.
>The elections were literally self determination
True enough.
>The people who rug pulled were Palestinians.
Done with foreign support. That's relevant.
>That makes it an internal issue that nobody cared enough to force resolution on.
On the contrary, multiple outside groups cared enough to make sure the group that attempted a foreign backed coup would not hold any other elections.
No dispute there. Fatah stole it all…and nobody supported a call to not let Abbas do it.
You debunked nothing. No elections since, bunch of little dictators run the show. Saying Israel doesn’t want something isn’t a good enough excuse.
Not saying elections would change who gets posted. Just saying elections are necessary for that whole self determination claim.
Palestine as an entity has always been dependent on foreign support. But what you’re forgetting is the deep pockets running that political show are Arabs. It’s behind the scenes billionaires fighting.
Forced resolution would be making Abbas abide by the seatings and rules. Nobody did that.
Anyone could have an election… it’s not much of a thing. Even all kinds of international groups want those to happen. Handful of Irish observers would suffice….
PA have also stated they would accept '67 borders.
Israel is the only party that will not accept '67 borders and in fact currently does not even support a 2 state solution.
This is the reality of the present day situation. Everything else you have said is just you projecting your opinion
Maybe you should read the charter. They have said they would accept their own state within the 67 borders. They did not say they would recognize the existence of Israel outside of those borders. Not exactly the same thing.
They’re basically saying we’ll take whatever we can get now, but we still lay claim to everything And will not contemplate peaceful coexistence.
I have read the charter.
They don't have to recognise the legitimacy of an Israeli state to agree to what would essentially be a long term peace plan.
Even then, it STILL means that Hamas is far closer to a 2-state solution than Israel is
>They don't have to recognise the legitimacy of an Israeli state to agree to what would essentially be a long term peace plan.
If a neighbour nation is not recognized then that means certain parties have ill intentions, same with Israel not recognizing Palestine.
The Israelis will never, ever, in the time their country exists as Israel, accept a Palestinian state on their borders that does not recognize theirs, no nation would actually.
The PA recognizes Israel, but doesn't recognizes Israel has a right to exist, and Israel does in return the same, recognizing the PA as "representative of the Palestinians", and nothing more than that.
Better than nothing? yes, but still far away from peace.
TBF Israel was not granted statehood. There was a non-binding UNGC resolution with suggested borders to be approved by the Security Council after consultation with people in the region.
Zionist terrorists then unilaterally declared statehood and destroyed 100s of Palestinian villages. The UNSC never 'granted' them statehood, (nor is it really in their power to do that).
If all it takes for someone to be 'granted' statehood is a non-binding resolution from the UNGC, Palestine has also been 'granted' statehood.
You forgot the part between destruction of tiny villages where the Palestinian militias, Jordan, and Egypt ethnically cleansed a huge chunk of territory of Jews. There wasn’t going to be a war if one wasn’t brought to the Israelis.
...yes yes, zionists are always blameless, they were forced to do all that ethnic cleansing, they totally weren't in the process of doing it, and then took resistance to their efforts as justification to do the thing they were already doing.
Big gamblers lose. Hasn’t been a good Arab general in hundreds of years. Might be because numbers are the devil.
They’re all doing bad things to each other. Not seeing anything specific to Israel that isn’t everywhere in the region.
Great, one big, happy family.
Ahh yes, the classic pivot.
Zionist: 'We're victims to aggressive neighbours.'
Normal person: 'Didn't you invade and annex land from all of them repeatedly over the course of many wars?'
Zionist: 'Yeah! They really suck at wars. It's good that we annex their territory because we are the best.'
Do you folks even hear yourself?
Read back. I called out the entire lack of middle where your preferred side went to mass ethnic cleansing. After that, I can’t exactly fault anything up to symmetry. Your pivot was some kind of hyperbolic claims that made no sense.
Arabs are generally bad at war. Much of the failures in the origination war came down to the general staff getting lost in rape and pillage. Would be an entirely different landscape with a bit of discipline.
Name one country in the region you want as the gold standard.
Let me just make sure I understand - you’re staying you’ve read the Hamas 2017 charter, and you believe that Hamas is open - whatsoever - to a 2 state solution and peaceful coexistence with Israel?
Don’t strawman me. Answer the question if you can
I think nothing that Hamas has ever declared about peaceful coexistence is true. I think having a plan for destroying Israel, and enslaving experts until they can teach the new bosses how to take care of resources is more likely to be true than side that lost and continues to lose wars would stick to the old armistice lines from generations back. I think the celebrations in Gaza after invasions into Israel is all anyone ever needs to know on where Hamas, residents of Gaza, and Palestinians in general stand on peaceful coexistence.
We’ll take it a step back.
Nothing Hamas has ever published accepts Israeli existence. It’s not that they would restrict themselves to the armistice lines, it’s they would accept a state being acknowledged within. They were always claiming all of the mandate lines. If we go back to the wars against Jordan, they wouldn’t even accept Jordan as a separate state.
What’s currently being asked is if you “believe” Hamas didn’t publish an after Israel is destroyed and the majority of the Israelis end up in the sea scenario. Which they did and have, which requires not all the Israelis to be killed because some have technical skills…
Arafat had that chance, Abbas had that chance. Your opinion is the PLO would accept the armistice lines based on statements that never went to fruition.
Nobody has put it to paper, Israel definitely would accept it while they’re currently taking territory. Abbas can’t take it because his handlers would kill him if he tried. They’re all in an all or nothing game right now, which Israel is winning.
Again, prove me wrong. Get anyone to accept, on paper, the armistice lines. Get France, as many big nations as possible to accept it. Then there is something to work with. Right now it’s nothing, it’s literally Macron saying he might acknowledge a state of unknown declared boundaries in months.
Israel is the one that refused to abide by UNSC resolution 242. And despite statements to the effect that 242 should be the basis of future peace negotiations, it never really has been.
Nothing about 242 has ever been enforced on anyone. There have been all kinds of wars within the region where acquisition of territory through war happens, and continues to happen. There are all kinds of requirements that nobody even acknowledges.
Might as well ask a casino to give back losses. This warlord or that warlord loses and then their side demands a redo, the whole while saying they want to take everything. Pie in the sky.
That’s just loser’s regrets then. Being willing to do bad things but unable isn’t a good position to ask for charity from.
Oh, Israel has all the justification it could ever need to take all kinds of territory. Nobody in the region plays by European rules. Nobody is forcing anyone to stop.
80 percent of the worlds population already recognizes these boundaries. It's only the Western world and their sphere that lags.
They always think they know better or have more say than the rest.
The whole point of western policy toward Palestine has been to string them along until its too late. Once the ethnic cleansing is complete, everyone will be really sad, though, as they count all the money from the new territory they are exploiting.
Having another permanent member state recognizing Palestine would be massive tbh. Even if this is a virtue signaling endeavor, based in politics, that's come 50nywars too late.
Will there be a Palestinian state by the time Europe wakes the fuck up?
Doesnt seem likely to me, as things as going right now, Israelis are even considering just annexing the West Bank too
The realistic scenario is that in 10 years the West Bank will not exist and no amount of campaigning and pressure will change that and the reason it because Israel is supported unconditionally by the US.
While they are supported by the US they can do whatever they want. Once there are enough settlers in the West Bank to justify it they will fully annex it.
Gaza they care less about because they are religious fanatics and Gaza is less significant in that respect. At this stage it’s not clear at all what they want from the territory.
If this happens, the West Bank will be one of the most unstable and militarized places on earth. There will never be true security in that region unless Israel enacts the largest and most brutal deportation campaign in history. It might’ve been a lot easier to round up and segregate the indigenous populations back in the day, but not so much today.
> Israel enacts the largest and most brutal deportation campaign in history.
Who will take them? America? Europe? Middle East nations?
There are 5.5M Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank, the total population of refugees in Europe is about the same amount. In America, roughly 1M recognized refugees. Will these nations agree to grant their own land to take the Palestinian population? Remember, ideally, refugees are meant to return to their country of origin once the war is over and it is safe to do so, this will be a resettlement instead.
There is zero chance that Western countries will take any significant number of Palestinians, they might be able to get more developing countries to 'sell' spots to take them, but probably in no real significant numbers. So there is only really one 'final solution to their problem'.
It's just not something on the top list of priorities for your average European. Just like the rest of the world doesn't give a shit about Ukraine, Europeans aren't necessarily in a rush to weigh themselves in on yet another genocidal Middle Eastern conflict.
There are currently bigger and more important issues to Europe than Middle Easterners killing each other over religion.
If the Europeans hadnt made their "moral high ground" part of their discourse or werent in a pretty favorable diplomatic situation with Israel I may be able to understand it
Europe pushes for its own interests first and foremost in their discourse. Considering this to be claiming a "moral high ground" is just what some people like you think of it as. There really is no difference in how Europe or China or any other country/union pushes for their personal interests.
Europe is in a favorable diplomatic situation with a lot of the Middle East, many of these countries being literal slave states. It's called diplomacy for a reason.
What a ridiculous comparison.
Europe (and the US) have pushed for their own personal interests by exporting war, destabilization and conflict around the entire planet for 100 years.
China building hospitals, roads and bridges, while always advocating for peace and dialog is not even close tot he same thing.
The Western world should rightly be criticised for its foreign policy and how it "pushes for its own interests".
Thank you Mr. Dong from North Korea for your insightful comment.
I greatly appreciate China for totally not supporting Russia’s actions in Ukraine and backing Iran’s proxies that totally do not fuel destabilization and war.
I also appreciate China for having upmost cordial relations with its neighboring countries who have no problem or tensions with them whatsoever. A true paragon of friendship and global cooperation for the world.
It was truly a ridiculous comparison and I should be ashamed of my actions. You have my sincerest apologies.
The US and Europw have had more conflict this century with Chinese neigbours than China lol.
China supplies Ukraine and Russia with electronic components that are then remanufactured into the finished product. They are the top supplier for both and don't directly send weapons to either. Let's compare that to the West shall we?
Israel illegally and aggressively bombing Iran, with US, German and UK supplied weapons and you take issue with China building Iran railways and roads lol?
>They are the top supplier for both and don't directly send weapons to either.
They might as well be with what they are sending lol. China sends Russia machinery and machine tools that are essential for manufacturing weapons and military vehicles, components for drones and cruise missiles like engines and navigation systems, and they allow them to use their BeiDou satellite navigation system as an alternative to GPS to conduct military operations.
Even if they don't "directly" send the finished weapons (as China officially seems to claim) to Russia, China is supplying Russia exactly what it needs to fight the war. A dissembled gun is still a gun, you just have to assemble it yourself (which I assume Russia is capable of doing lol).
>US, German and UK
Cool. Two of these countries are European and only one is part of the European Union. Does German and British foreign policy and action represent all of Europe to you?
Germany and the UK also send weapons to several other countries embroiled in deadly humanitarian conflicts, as does China.
China sends the same stuff to Ukraine lol. So are you saying China supports Ukraine?
"As China seems to claim". Always this caveat when it comes to China eh, like the "at what cost" addition when something isn't really true but you want to create doubt anyway.
Two of the two major European nations (the two largest economies) and the two with the strongest and the two largest influences in the last 50 years certainly represents a significant part of European foreign policy, don't worry though, that doesnt excuse the rest. Spain and Ireland are the only two that are seemingly agaisnt Israeli genocide, the rest are quite happy to maintain ties and allow their support to continue.
>China sends the same components and machinery to Ukraine lol.
I can't seem to find anything suggesting this. Mind sharing your source(s)?
>Always this caveat when it comes to China eh, like the "at what cost" addition when something isn't really true but you want to create doubt anyway.
You seem to place a lot of value and confidence in what China says. It's almost like you don't see them as an imperialist empire lol.
>Spain and Ireland are the only two that are seemingly agaisnt Israeli genocide
What are these countries doing so drastically different to other European countries?
Also, what is China doing to stop this conflict? Shouldn't they, as the first/second global power, be doing something? It seems kind of odd to expect small European countries to stop a US funded proxy state.
I wasn't questioning that China was Ukraine's biggest supplier of goods for most things. That seems pretty obvious for most countries.
What I am questioning is your claim that China is sending the same military components/equipment it sends Russia to Ukraine.
The post WW2 myth was a huge component of what made the world what it was. Seems a bit mindless to dismiss it as being nothing more than any other diplomatic tool.
From the country/president that offered unconditional immunity from executing the ICC warrant of arrest for Naziyahu, this is too little, too late, and will likely never materialise. Dude thinks this will gain him some political capital, but it won't.
This is fine but means nothing, ultimately. The state of Palestine is already an active participant in the United nations. The most impactful aspect of this is maybe Abbas will get a nice basket of croissants
He's just saying this because in France they just voted a law to enable farmers to use really toxic fertilizers tht kill bees, gives cancers and various hormonal diseases to humans. Because obviously farmers want to die before 60 and give their kids cancer at 8.
This law is so hated that a petition had more signature than half the candidates to the last presidential election had. Making it so the parliament will have to debate again about the law. It won't undo it because our constitution is shit. Macron is just waving Palestine to try to appease the anger growing. He also wants to AGAIN reform retirement and unemployment.
This may go yellow vest season 2 and he thinks saying a lie a second time will help him make us accept the terrible laws he passed.
European Leaders just love these meaningless stupid ass gestures do they, it's their favourite thing after meaningless strongly worded letters
Not even getting into any of the Details like what governance, what borders and so on, this is just another wet fart out of Europe while the big players shape the reality on the ground
I don't expect any serious moves towards this as long as Europe keeps bending over for Trump at literally any occasion possible
I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure the country in question needs to accept said boarders. And I don’t think the PA is going to want to do that, because, well, leaders who recognize Israel have a bad history of being assassinated. Honestly I think that after Sedat, that’s the reason why Arafat and Abbas never said no, but also never said yes or came back with a firm proposal.
When they've been playing along with Israel for as long as they have, it sure feels like it. Who knows what will even be left of Palestine by September.
One angry phone call from Trump later and he will suddenly decide it's not the right time again, assuming he is being serious in the first place and not just stalling for the pressure to die down.
France can either recognize or not recognize, but "will recognize", seriously? Major powers playing maybe games show no respect to global dioplamacy and the countries directly affected by these decisions.
I just see a medieval guardsman saying "I may let you through the gate" with one hand doing money signs beside his hip.
#####	
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> # [French President Macron says France will recognize Palestine as a state](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/M67HS6DIYQI7BLCPDFP5XDXJVA_size-normalized.jpg&w=1440)
>
>
>
> PARIS — French President Emmanuel Macron announced Thursday that France will recognize Palestine as a state, amid snowballing global anger over people starving in Gaza.
>
> Macron said in a post on X that he will formalize the decision at the United Nations General Assembly in September. “The urgent thing today is that the war in Gaza stops and the civilian population is saved.″
>
> The French president offered support for Israel after the Oct. 7, 2023 Hamas attacks and frequently speaks out against antisemitism, but he has grown increasingly frustrated about Israel’s war in Gaza, especially in recent months.
>
> France is the biggest and most powerful European country to recognize Palestine. More than 140 countries recognize a Palestinian state, including more than a dozen in Europe.
>
> France has Europe’s largest Jewish population and the largest Muslim population in western Europe, and fighting in the Middle East often spills over into protests or other tensions in France.
>
> The Israeli Foreign Ministry had no immediate comment.
>
> France’s foreign minister is co-hosting a conference at the U.N. next week about a two-state solution. Last month, Macron expressed his “determination to recognize the state of Palestine,” and he has pushed for a broader movement toward a two-state solution, in parallel with recognition of Israel and its right to defend itself.
>
> Thursday’s announcement came soon after the U.S. cut short Gaza ceasefire talks in Qatar, saying Hamas wasn’t showing good faith.
>
> Momentum has been building against Israel in recent days. Earlier this week, France and more than two dozen mostly European countries [condemned](https://apnews.com/article/europe-israel-hamas-war-gaza-e4062cffa9585790061105236a93d8e5) Israel’s restrictions on aid shipments into the territory and the killings of hundreds of Palestinians trying to reach food.
>
> The Palestinians seek an independent state [in the occupied West Bank](https://apnews.com/article/while-the-world-watches-gaza-here-is-whats-happening-in-the-west-bank-0000019648ecdf1aa397edfda9970000) , annexed east Jerusalem and Gaza, territories Israel occupied in the 1967 Mideast war. Israel’s government and most of its political class have long been opposed to Palestinian statehood and now say that it would reward militants after Hamas’ Oct. 7, 2023, attack.
>
> Israel annexed east Jerusalem shortly after the 1967 war and considers it part of its capital. In the West Bank, it has built scores of settlements, some resembling sprawling suburbs, that are now home to over 500,000 Jewish settlers with Israeli citizenship. The territory’s 3 million Palestinians live under Israeli military rule, with the Palestinian Authority exercising limited autonomy in population centers.
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