Two civilian planes fly very low while man was flying drone legally
Posted by TappetoImperiale@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 123 comments
This happened in Italy
LPNTed@reddit
I was talking to a guy who claimed to be a Canadian private jet pilot about drone flying and the fact I had been flying up to about 400' in the middle of nowhere.... This shocked him 'cause he claimed that he did a lot of time going over 200kts under 400' in the middle of nowhere. Neither of us had good answers.
mikpyt@reddit
EASA is simply correct about regulating VFR minimum AGL, and FAA is behind the curve. It just makes sense to separate drones and manned aviation like that. Minimum 500 ft AGL, and even better 1000 ft AGL gives the pilot any headroom at all in case of engine failure, better than nothing at least, and keeps them safe from hitting consumer drones, which can even be hardwired to be unable to exceed 500 ft AGL.
yabucek@reddit
Drones can't be hardwired to stay below 500ft. Any restriction like that is always going to be done through software and software can be manipulated.
Cogwheel@reddit
Or, you know, by people following the rules just like the pilots who'd have to stay above 500ft.
yabucek@reddit
Pilots go through a long and involved training and certification process, they're unambiguously connected to the flight and their literal life is on the line. And you still get schmucks like the ones in the video.
Meanwhile literally anyone with $200 on their credit card can buy a drone and fly it. "Everyone will simply follow the rules" is just not a realistic expectation.
ficiek@reddit
You literally need a certification to fly any drones except of the tiniest ones without cameras on them. What kind of an argument is this? It's like saying "anyone can get into a car and drive it so nobody will follow all this stupid stuff with driver's licenses".
DarthPineapple5@reddit
You are correct their life is on the line so they should be flying higher where its safer if there is an engine failure. There are zero valid reasons for these Cessnas to be flying so low. There are lots of valid reasons for drones to be flying, they are becoming extremely common in the mapping and engineering fields
Software based geofencing and altitude restrictions will stop 99.9% of drone users. How much the drone costs or how much training pilots have is irrelevant
i_should_go_to_sleep@reddit
What about other aircraft that do need to fly low? Like helicopters landing in random fields for legitimate reasons?
DarthPineapple5@reddit
I am more than happy to get out of the way for any manned aircraft, the issue is really time. For any aircraft at cruising speed it is very difficult to determine how far away they are when they are moving directly towards you and by the time you realize there could be an issue you may have only seconds to descend. A landing helicopter should in theory be less of an issue
My commercial equipment has ADSB data built in which helps but its not a perfect solution either nor is it likely to help with hobby drones. In the US we are also required to broadcast a short range identification which in theory could be used to warn helicopter pilots of nearby drones but I highly doubt they monitor for them at the moment.
The tech seems to be advancing but there are still major gaps
WLFGHST@reddit
they can go below 500ft if they're in sparsely populated areas such as this and stay 500ft from anything... which they did in this as well.
i_should_go_to_sleep@reddit
I think they’re saying that’s why EASA is better. At least in Italy (where this incident was filmed), you have to maintain 500’ over sparsely populated areas as well.
Cogwheel@reddit
We're in a thread talking about a hypothetical situation where rules have been implemented to keep drone and GA traffic out of conflict.
ryancrazy1@reddit
If only there was some way to incentivize people to follow the laws we create. Maybe some kind of negative reinforcement, like a fine or other punitive measures.
Dr_Hexagon@reddit
Combine the firmware limitation with a fine for flying over 500ft or for running modified firmware that removes the limit. Not perfect but better than nothing.
ThaCarter@reddit
Is there a good reason to be flying less than 1000'?
Longjumping_College@reddit
Firefighting, crop dusting, search and rescue, power line inspection/helicopter trimming the trees near power lines... uhh im sure there's more
mikpyt@reddit
Yeah, but these are also necessary as opposed to light piston joyrides, as well as publicly announced, planned and scheduled. Systems are either already in place to keep drone users away, or they should be introduced yesterday. Any drone user interfering with them is bound to get the book thrown at them, and rightly so
pronghornpilot@reddit
I enjoy GA flying for sightseeing. Joyriding in a single engine piston at low altitude is exactly as necessary as recreational drones. Seems nutty to just arbitrarily pick one hobby to legally protect while eliminating the other.
mikpyt@reddit
Your hobby can and should be done with reduced risk of bird strikes, drone strikes and with some additional minimal headroom for emergency landing, and if you don't see the benefit in that you're hopeless, and luckily already illegal under EASA rules.
pronghornpilot@reddit
Calm down, my man. Not sure who you are responding to but I never mentioned “killing GA.”
I’d be even safer on my couch. But, you know, make life worth while and all that. I am quite comfortable in the risk-reward I have selected for myself.
No, I am not in the EU.
I am grateful to live in a place where I can legally scoot around low altitude and land off airport. My hobby is not suitable in densely populated areas but is just fine out where I am. It’s just shocking to me every time I find someone who thinks a law is sensible for one situation it must clearly be sensible everywhere. Shows a complete inability to picture different lifestyles/cultures/population densities.
WLFGHST@reddit
I live in Montana and so much of our state is just empty hills or farmland where if you lose an engine while flying at like 30ft you'd still be fine. Also, not all of the world is Europe where cities with millions of people are within an hour flight. I think I'm 9 hours of driving from a city with one million people (Denver). There are parts of the US like that but much of it isn't and thats why are rules are the way they are :)
I would 100% stand with keeping the rule because the way its written its basically "yeah, if you're in the middle of nowhere do whatever you want, have fun, just don't do it by people/where others could get hurt unless you coordinated with them or you're landing/taking off"
Te_Luftwaffle@reddit
I think more laws should boil down to "if you're not hurting anyone and you're contributing to society, go for it."
nascent_aviator@reddit
Don't forget landing 😉
DashingDino@reddit
They define no-fly zones for drones around airports, my city is inside of one and I never see people fly drones as a result
mkosmo@reddit
Some flavors of aerial photography.
DarthPineapple5@reddit
So just like with drones then
stephen1547@reddit
Canadian here. Let’s say I have 2 SM vis, and a Class-E shelf that starts at 700 AGL. The only legal way to proceed VFR is to descend below 700 AGL.
Just_a_stickmonkey@reddit
I’m gonna flipp that question around. Is there a good reason to go above 1000'? Nothing up there but more empty air. 😉
mikpyt@reddit
That empty air might make your trip shorter if it's blowing in the right direction :D going below 500 ft on the other hand makes your unscheduled trip down in case of any malfunction much shorter and more violent
Just_a_stickmonkey@reddit
Meh. Experience tell me that with a fifty/fifty chance of head- vs tailwind, it’s gonna be headwind one hundred percent of the time. Besides, I think all us helicopter pilots are scared of heights. Or is it just me? Low and slow is the way to go 😁👍
mikpyt@reddit
You're not scared of drones since you're just gonna mince them, but we plebs on the ground are scared of you autorotating on our heads ;)
Just_a_stickmonkey@reddit
You stay below 120 meters, I stay above 150. Close enough for a wave but not a handshake. 🤝
mikpyt@reddit
That's the spirit, I wish I could upvote you twice
Proper_Possible6293@reddit
Unpowered aircraft don’t always get to choose their altitude.
IncognitoD@reddit
Good reason is always take off and landing... bushplanes use a lot of "unconventional runways" lakes, rivers, clearings etc.
Megaflarp@reddit
Sort of, in congested spaces the Alpha might start very low.
dsdvbguutres@reddit
Other than a brief moment before and after landing and takeoff
proudlyhumble@reddit
Fun
OldResearcher6@reddit
This is almost guaranteed to be in Alaska. Good luck trying to tell all the cub and 180 drivers up there to not go below 1000 AGL.
Europe is much denser then the US. They are not the same
agate_@reddit
Airspace below 400 feet falls under FAFO rules.
seeker-0@reddit
First Air First Out?
npno@reddit
Fuck around, find out
local_meme_dealer45@reddit
If you're going to be doing super low level stuff like this, then there should be a NOTAM for it. I'll check for such before I fly my drone but obviously there's nothing I can do if none exists.
Yes you could hear planes but:
The plane will be on top of you a lot quicker than you think after you hear it.
It'll take a second for the drone pilot to process that there's a plane coming and descend enough.
Drones get a bad reputation in aviation because of a minority of idiot pilots who don't think the rules apply to them, however this case was 100% the fault of the manned aircraft.
IngrownBallHair@reddit
DJI getting ads-b in is fucking awesome. I'll get a notification of inbound traffic before I can hear or see them, and can then start taking evasive action (typically pausing a flight plan running) and lower altitude appropriately to get the fuck out of their way.
OldResearcher6@reddit
This is more than likely in alaska. This is pretty standard up there, looking for spots to land to set up hunting and fish camp.
WLFGHST@reddit
nobody was in the wrong in this video (at least in the US).
Here if you're in sparsely populated areas you just have to stay 500ft from people buildings vehicles or anything of the liking.
I'm not exactly what the rules are in Italy, but that's just how it is for me and I think most pilots understand the risk and if they did hit a drone or something its 100% their fault.
AhoyWilliam@reddit
Good point - do people want drone pilots to hear a plane and immediately take evasive action, before they even work out if there is a collision risk or whether their evasive action will introduce one?
MonkeyPilot320@reddit
In Airspace G you need to keep your own separation. So both parties would be at fault in a crash. But in Italy there is a minimum Height of 500ft for light Aircraft. Contrary to that there are UL Sectors through controlled airspaces where you need to be between 300 ft and 500 ft AGL. They are often following rivers.
dt531@reddit
Not true in the US that both parties would be at fault in a crash. The drone has responsibility to avoid a manned aircraft. See 11-8-3 b.1.
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap11_section_8.html
"The pilot of any unmanned aircraft operation retains the ultimate responsibility to avoid manned aircraft traffic. UAS operators should remember that manned aircraft may fly below 400 feet AGL; examples include helicopters, agricultural aircraft, light civil aircraft, and military aircraft. UAS pilots must ensure they have unblocked visual access to both their UAS and the airspace around it; not seeing a manned aircraft due to blocked line of sight does not absolve the UAS pilot from responsibility for avoidance."
d542east@reddit
I paraglide a lot, unpowered, but we regularly get good thermal conditions here in the spring and summer, so flying between 6000' and 10000' is pretty normal. I've been up as high as 13500' on a strong day over the north cascades. Had a little piper fly directly underneath me on Saturday. I think about 1000' of altitude between us. Planes don't bother me nearly as much as helicopters to be honest. I know we're not easy to see, it's just part of flying in G airspace, as you said.
BanverketSE@reddit
it's the bird's fault for having contributed with its body in the bird strike
OldResearcher6@reddit
The amount of people here that don't realize this is in Alaska and what the norms are and for what reason is pretty mind blowing. So many insanely bad takes or people that have only read a book lol
Shikatanai@reddit
Was going to ask why the drone operator was acting illegally. I need some sleep
BeachEmotional8302@reddit
You do see it says legally in the title right?
WLFGHST@reddit
The title almost makes it seem the pilots were doing something wrong. Both parties were in the right (at least based on US/FAA rules which obviously aren't Italian but idk Italy's rules)
DDX1837@reddit
I noticed that too. Why are you getting downvoted?
BeachEmotional8302@reddit
Reddit logic lmao
DDX1837@reddit
I believe "Reddit" and "logic" are mutually exclusive.
Suspicious-Bench-940@reddit
You're right, but just to continue it I gave you another downvote for no reason lol
BeachEmotional8302@reddit
Hahahaha thanks
CannonousCrash@reddit
Its more that sometimes the brain reads things other than being what's written. Probably some form of dyslexia.
I and like the guy who you replied to had that moment where legally was read as illegally.
No idea about the downvotes, brains are weird.
Kiytostuone@reddit
I don't see anything illegal about the drone operation here, unless they were near an airport.
I fly rivers like this all the time, if I come around a corner and crash into a drone, that's my fault, not the fault of the person casually flying one in a completely safe spot.
Sea_Cantaloupe7043@reddit
Well as a drone operator, if I hear a plane coming by I usually take my drone down.
Kiytostuone@reddit
The drone is coming down. They also may have seen the first plane coming, noticed that there wasn't a collission risk, and only noticed the 2nd one later.
My point stands, that the drone operator isn't doing anything obviously wrong here.
solocmv@reddit
And you can clearly see that as soon as the first plane passes the drone immediately descends!
Goodspeed137@reddit
§ 107.37(a), any “small unmanned aircraft must yield the right‑of‑way to all aircraft”
Lives of aircraft with humans in it takes president over drones.
CannonousCrash@reddit
I also wondered what was illegal about it, its morning, I have slept for the last 9 hours.
Aggravating_Bath_351@reddit
Suprise! Those airplanes were flying legally and have right of way over hobbyist unmanned aircraft.
requiem_mn@reddit
No, in EU they don't. In the EU, unless for the sake of landing, manned aircraft must be above 150m (500ft). UAV (drone) must be below 120m (400ft). And this is in Italy.
bigkempin67@reddit
Sounds like a tricky situation. Hope everyone involved was safe!
mikpyt@reddit
Nothing tricky about it. 2 asshole pilots zooming lower than they should and drone guy minding their business where's he's legally allowed
Goodspeed137@reddit
500ft away from man made objects. Everything was legal.
§ 107.37(a), any “small unmanned aircraft must yield the right‑of‑way to all aircraft”
FAA says man operated aircraft have right of way.
mikpyt@reddit
FAA has absolutely no authority in EU / Italy, under EASA rules they are below minimum altitude for VFR flights. These altitudes are exactly why drones are allowed up to 120 m in uncontrolled airspace - because manned aircraft are not supposed to be there.
But you folks never cared about these, did you? And now you're offended there's something to hit below 500 ft AGL and the rules are no longer meaningless
Goodspeed137@reddit
Guessed I missed the Italy bit.
I have no idea what you’re trying to say with the second paragraph.
mikpyt@reddit
Drone altitude limits did not come out of thin air, they are based around VFR minimum altitude regulations that were in place before drones were a thing. But pilots like the ones in the recording did not care about them then, and don't care about them now. Now they're just pissed off they will hit a drone, flying where they shouldn't like they always used to.
I could shoot a dozen vids like this, our local air traffic regularly goes 150 ft AGL over my house without a care in the world
Goodspeed137@reddit
Regardless of law, how can you value human life over a machine?
mikpyt@reddit
Why doesn't the PILOT value human lives of his passengers and himself over the thrill of zooming around low? Now that there's a real threat of collision below 500 ft?
-Badger3-@reddit
It’s like when motorcyclists complain about other drivers not caring about their safety while they chose to drive a motorcycle lol
demroidsbeitchn@reddit
I can't quite tell which side you're defending, but as a motorcyclist, drone hobbyist and private pilot, your analogy, respectfully, falls a bit short. If one of those airplanes runs into the UAV, it's 100% the human pilots fault.
VigdisBT@reddit
r/shitamericanssay
ThrowAwaAlpaca@reddit
Great we don't want ignorant pilots flying here anyways.
ThrowAwaAlpaca@reddit
Lmao who cares about the FAA in Italy
katbyte@reddit
what the fuck does the FAA have to do with the EU
TDG71@reddit
Not all Americans are as self centered as that one.
r_a_d_@reddit
Yup, that phrase is really going to make the impossible possible. How exactly will a drone operator react in time?
ForsakenRacism@reddit
Less maneuverable aircraft gets priority 🤔
FragCool@reddit
The planes shouldn't be below 300 m AGL. The drone shouldn't be above 120 m AGL.
From the look, the drone was in its area, the plane wasn't.
ResortMain780@reddit
300m is above congested areas. Elsewhere the limit is 150m, though clearly these planes where below that too. OTOH, its also the drone operator's (or his spotters) duty to be on the lookout and give way to manned aviation. So unless those cessnas were about to land, Id say both drone and plane pilots were at fault here.
Dependent_Survey_546@reddit
Thats not how it works. Plane not above 150 and clearly not landing.
ResortMain780@reddit
That in no way means the drone operator can just ignore the planes he surely must have been able to see and hear coming. It doesnt matter one iota if the manned aircraft were breaking rules too, or having an emergency or preparing for a field landing, the drone should have gotten out of the way.
ILikeWoodAnMetal@reddit
The drone operator shouldn’t have to expect planes flying this low, it is therefore no surprise he didn’t react to them. You would also be startled if you saw a train was about to hit you on your driveway.
ResortMain780@reddit
It doesnt matter what you expect, you dont keep your eyes open on the road because you expect a toddler to cross. A drone operator is absolutely obligated, legally and morally to keep a close eye on the airspace he is flying in and/or have a spotter who's sole job is just that. It doesnt matter if it so to spot a hillbilly pilot breaking the rules or a rescue helicopter, a waterbomber or a plane having an emergency. There is no good excuse when you fail to spot something as slow and as loud as a cessna. How is he going to spot gliders?
Dependent_Survey_546@reddit
Nope, a drone operators job is to fly within their airspace (im going to get open category in this case).
The drone operators job isnt to dodge planes flying at 20m straight through the area. Its desirable, but there's only so much you can anticipate.
Much like its a pilots job to fly within regulations.
ResortMain780@reddit
Section 107.31 :
“(a) With vision that is unaided by any device other than corrective lenses, the remote pilot in command, the visual observer (if one is used), and the person manipulating the flight control of the small unmanned aircraft system must be able to see the unmanned aircraft throughout the entire flight in order to:
(1) Know the unmanned aircraft’s location;
(2) Determine the unmanned aircraft’s attitude, altitude, and direction of flight;
(3) Observe the airspace for other air traffic or hazards; and
(4) Determine that the unmanned aircraft does not endanger the life or property of another.
Dependent_Survey_546@reddit
Sure, but its the pilots responsibility to stay out of the drone airspace. Which they were not doing.
ResortMain780@reddit
Which is why I said its likely both drone and Cessna pilot are at fault.
Dependent_Survey_546@reddit
The drone pilot cannot be at fault when he's following the rules.
The pilot is obviously breaking the rules. Saying its equal fault is completely wrong.
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Dependent_Survey_546@reddit
Those planes are extremely hard to see/hear/anticipate when youre at ground level and they come down around a bend or over a ridge.
Hell, even if they're behind some trees you won't see or most likely hear them until they're already flying past.
Kiytostuone@reddit
Um, it's exactly how it works. The comment was pointing out that the previous comment saying the planes couldn't be below 300m was wrong, because it is.
Goodspeed137@reddit
In US its legal as long as you’re 500ft away from man made objects. That distance can be horizontal.
Chessdaddy_@reddit
Well op said it’s in Italy 🤷
FragCool@reddit
Good for the US Irelevant for this video
Kiytostuone@reddit
There's no 300m AGL restriction on planes in areas like this (in the US). There's only a restriction on how close you're allowed to be to people, which, for the first place at least, looks to be a non-issue.
FragCool@reddit
The last time I checked Italy is not in the US...
Kiytostuone@reddit
Why are people on reddit always such cunts? Oh nooo, I didn't see that Italy is written somewhere on this post! The fucking horror!
In that case, it's 150m, not 300m. Which they're still below, but if fortuantely makes you wrong.
BlindChicken69@reddit
No need to be a dick just cause you didn't bother to read the description. It was not hidden information.
Kiytostuone@reddit
I treat people like they show that they deserved to be treated.
is being a dick. Like the majority of reddit always is. "OP mentioned this is in Italy" is appropriate, snarky bullshit is not. Since /u/FragCool showed that they're a cunt, I treated them like one. Boo-fucking-hoo
Kiytostuone@reddit
I treat people like they show that they deserved to be treated.
is being a dick. So I treated /u/FragCool like the worthless piece of shit that they are. Boo-fucking-hoo
Kiytostuone@reddit
Why are people on reddit always such cunts? Oh nooooo, I didn't see a location that wasn't in the title and is somewhere on this post! The fucking horror!
brmagic@reddit
Depends on the country I guess, where I live the drone operator has to lookout for planes or otjer aircraft entering the area and if so do an immediate and safe descent, but I agree that planes normally shouldn't fly that low
FragCool@reddit
Italy has the same drone rules as rest if europe.
And yes still the drone should give way... but you know... planes are faster, and it's not so easy the get out of the way fast enough
ForsakenRacism@reddit
Maybe the plane waa landing
FilamentFlight@reddit
In my country the drone operator still has the responsibility to avoid air traffic, which it seems is exactly what they did here when that cowboy buzzed the tower. We have a heli pilot that like to push the limits near my local FRIA and while it is annoying to land because of others being weird, I would never want my toy plane to be the cause of any loss of life or injury. Regardless of scenario, the media would never report a drone collision as anything other than the fault of the drone "pilot," so in my mind it's best to avoid it and not play the "who's at fault" game.
In this scenario I'd probably land and hope the free airshow continues.
mrlegendgroup@reddit
Let bro have some fun jeeeze and people
Watarenuts@reddit
"You're in uncontrolled airspace, everything is at your own discretion!"
New_Line4049@reddit
Everything you say??? That's a bad idea..... initiating RATOs..... at .y own discretion of course!
Watarenuts@reddit
It's the wild west of airspace
f18murderhornet@reddit
God forbid if a man trains for a low level ingress into iran
bigkempin67@reddit
Seriously, the dedication some people have for their craft is wild. Imagine putting in all that effort!
Nighthawk-FPV@reddit
It appears Iranian GPS jamming also makes Rhinos useless now. The next top gun is gonna be interesting.
BlindChicken69@reddit
Idiots