Why do cargo airlines still operate older aircraft?

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XenoRyet@reddit

Because they still fly. The best way to get the most value out of a vehicle is to use it all the way until it doesn't do the job anymore.

Passenger aircraft "wear out" faster because you eventually have to refit and update the interior for comfort and public perception. Cargo doesn't give a shit if the inside of the bay is banged up and looks like it's from the 70s.

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no_sight@reddit

This could apply to 90% of the questions and problems in the personal finance sub.

Cheapest option is keep using old car until it dies

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Cerebral-Parsley@reddit

I have a coworker who thinks that it's cheaper to trade in for a new car every 2-3 years so one doesn't have to do any big maintenance ever.

He couldn't wrap his head around the fact that every time you exchange a vehicle, the dealers are making a lot of money and it is way more than some possible maintenance item especially when the car is in warranty.

DaBingeGirl@reddit

Mine was a used car, the company I bought it from offers a 30 day warranty, longer and you'll need to pay more (a thousand plus for 2 or 3 years of coverage). One thing that broke was covered by their warranty, but everything else wasn't, or happened just past the time a warranty covered.

Warranties vary by manufacturer. Most new cars come with 3 year/36,000 miles, with a few components going up to 6 years/60,000 miles. My car was over the mileage pretty quickly, which was part of the problem. That said, I got it for a very good price, so even with the maintenance cost it still came out cheaper than buying new. Most used cars don't come with a warranty. If it's a recall, that'll be covered, but that's about it in most cases. Some dealerships will offer limited coverage on "certified pre-owned," but those are usually more expensive.

There are a few companies that offer longer warranties, but they tend to have reliability problems. The repairs are generally covered, but the hassle of having it in the shop constantly isn't worth it, IMO.

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thrownjunk@reddit

Wait. Your new car didnt include a warranty for the first three years?

Like ford is 3 years bumper to bumper and 8 years for an EV drivetrain.

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That's because it's only ten years old, well after full enshittification of BMW. You need to go back to the 90s or earlier to get the good BMWs worth fixing up.

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That70sShop@reddit

It's so hard to believe that the 90s are between a quarter to a third of a century ago. That the 90s are half my lifetime ago. I'm not sure what I did with my life for the last 30 years, and I don't even really drink. . .

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yalyublyutebe@reddit

You don't buy a new German luxury car, you lease it.

If you think buying a used one is a good idea you're a fucking moron. Especially if it was made this side of 2000.

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Linenoise77@reddit

I did lease this damn thing new. I just love it so much and it runs so great i couldn't let it go. Its now somehow become our especially annoying to maintain beater.

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That70sShop@reddit

Never ever get emotionally attached to anything with four wheels a propeller or a prop.

Years ago when my daughter was asking me what something was and it was a part off of some car I had as a kid she asked me how many cars I had had and I counted it up and at that point I'd had something like 23 and I swear I still had something from each one of them.

It's a sickness. It's like portable hoarding basically. It feels like you're not hoarding because it's useful and you can move it around the block if the cops get annoyed that it's been parked on the street too long

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njsullyalex@reddit

It took me a week and a half to replace a head after it burned a valve, I was successful but I forgot to reconnect a knock sensor and the VCG is leaking oil so I need to re-do that and remove the intake manifolds again. And it’s overdue for new motor mounts.

But that car has been in the family since I was 3 so it’s too special to say goodbye to.

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That70sShop@reddit

My dad bought a Mercedes 300D off of an old Iowa farmer who bought it because he knew understood and loved diesels. I was so impressed with just little details in some of the same ways that I liked old air-cooled Volkswagen stuff. Like the reversible spring that both holds the rear deck lid closed and open.

So I liked Dotson 510s, which were the poor man's BMW, which begs the question well what would a Not Poor Man's BMW be like to tool around in.

This wasn't something that I had put any real active Pursuit into but just in the back of my mind I was considering getting to know BMW a little bit like I knew just enough about the steering geometry to be interested in what they were doing with the rear axle one of those things that I wanted to know more about and hadn't quite gone down a rapid hole cuz there was no chat apt in those days you'd have to actually crawl under one or get out of manual to understand how something worked.

I abandon all thought of ever owning a BMW for any reason at any time, including if anyone happened to want a gift one to me when a friend of mine became a BMW dealership mechanic. When he explained to me the factory recommended interval for a head removal and valve job, I don't remember, but it was something like 50 or 60,000 miles in. I said no, thank you very much.

My late father believed in scrupulous maintenance and getting every pound of flesh out of a car but he was not the least bit sentimental about sending a car off literally to a scrap yard if it got to the point where the utility of the car going forward after repair was less than the cost of the repair. I, on the other hand, have no problem dropping $1,000 into a car to get another $200 worth of value out of it.

He wasn't wrong when he would counsel not to throw good money after bad. I sometimes get the general impression that he's giving me little nudges from the other side about my life choices and I'm sure he's not surprised that I'm not listening because I didn't much listen when he was alive.

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iconfuseyou@reddit

When your car begs for death but you’re on your third box of hose clamps and jbweld.

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GlockAF@reddit

Resume job title: auto mechanic / mecha-necromancer

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That70sShop@reddit

Don't remind me. I've been working on my resume and it's as much of a mess as this thread jack.

After my dad passed one of his friends said you know when I met your dad I thought it was the biggest bullshit I ever met in my life because there's no way any one person did all of those individually separate distinct and completely unrelated things.

We're kind of the Forrest Gump of, "What is it that you do?"

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That70sShop@reddit

Speaking of JB Weld. .. .

One of my carcasses has 421,000 Mi on her. I treated her to do a brand new all aluminum 'Made in America' radiator from O'Reilly that came in a box clearly marked Made in China. The kid that welded it up did pretty good work with a tigged, but he tigged a Subaru neck onto it. That was an interesting thing to puzzle out obviously I could have returned it but I didn't want to undo 6 hours of work just to complain about the fact that the Toyota radiator cap won't seal on a Subaru neck quite.

So she blew a head gasket. I don't know 120-150,000 miles ago. She doesn't care, so I don't care. We just keep adding distilled water. Treat her to a little Ethelene glycol if on the rare occasion that we have a freeze here in the desert.

At some point she sprung a leak in that brand new quality made in America Chinese radiator. So I fixed that with some JB Weld and some stop leak in the radiator because I didn't want to pull that out even though it's got a lifetime warranty because of the quality it goes into making a made in America radiator with child labor in China.

So the radiator doesn't really cool which is something of a problem. It's not a huge problem because it doesn't generate enough Heat to heat the cabin very well in the winter time but when it's 117 to 121° out it would be nice if the radiator transferred heat.

I'm finding that if I run the heater it does a better job of cooling the car than the radiator does oh and the radiator fans don't come on unless you're running the air conditioning or the heater with the defroster on and the AC button in. That's all assuming that the touch screen is cool enough that it actually works for making those selections.

So. . . it so the other day I was trying to do a little YouTube short about my 117° external temperature with 160° engine temperature using my quality Harbor Freight code reader, while showing that I was accomplishing that by running the heater. At 117°

I wasn't able to film that but I did get a nice screenshot of the phone saying that it was shutting down apps because the phone was too hot to run the camera.

No I have zombie phones as well this particular phone had a crack on the screen because one time I was working on the car and I'm so proud and happy that I gotten it working I ZIP down the street having left the phone near the windshield wiper and it went up and over the windscreen and broke on the road. I carry full insurance on it which is of course worthless so I took the phone into the phone store to get a replacement only to find out that they have to mail it in or some such and I would be without a phone in the meanwhile so I just dealt with it.

So the phone overheated and the screen was not really touch screening the way I touch screen should and I decided to wipe it down with some alcohol because I figured that would both clean the screen and possibly cool it down a little that completely wiped out the screen and it's a modern phone so you can't do anything at all without access to the screen.

Okay no problem I've got a 10-year-old Samsung j7 laying around I actually have several of those I'll run on down to the store have pay the $28 to have them flip that other phone on while I figure out what I'm doing with the now dead phone that has all of my passwords for everything fingerprint protected and I remember none of them and I have zero ways to reset anything because I can't get in anything cuz I can't remember anything because I'm old.

Well, here's the thing in my Misfit youth I used to find people that didn't want to be found and I'm living like Harrison Ford in The Fugitive so my phone is registered in the name of a fictional literary character and that doesn't exactly match my ID so they couldn't move my phone number to a new phone. .

I've decided that it's probably time to rejoin Society I actually have an actual credit card now hadn't had one of those in 20 years and it's in my actual name so I figured why not start using my actual physical address and I don't know get a phone listed in my actual name. So I did hooked up one of the j7's and tried to get some work done turns out you can't do the kind of work that I do with a 10 year old phone. . .

So I go down to the I break you fix or somebody fixes something store and they didn't have a screen in stock so I used Google Maps to find the next version of their store and called the first one on the list and lo and behold he had one in stock I get there and I find out Google messed up and actually sent me to a competitor who charged $30 less to replace the screen then I was already ready to pay. So now I'm voice to texting this whole thing on my old phone with full access to everything which I still haven't backed up and I still don't know the passwords to anything.

Indeed. Having lived through the not a typical for me experience myself I actually understand what happened better from that summary then I did explaining to myself what it is I did and why. I think chat GPT has a better handle on my motivation and direction than I do myself.

I really need a full-time scrivener, editor, and perhaps psychiatric care.

I've always been a writer since I was a small child. You know that rumination tracks that humans have to a greater or lesser degree where it's kind of meta you're thinking about your internal thoughts and what am I thinking about and why am I thinking what I'm thinking? You follow me? I know that sounds convoluted, but I mean, it's an actual thing.

Then there is that discussion about do you dream in color and how you know that the blue icy is the blue you see and that sort of thing.

It's hard to analyze what's going on in your head using your brain cuz your brain's busy thinking about thinking but when I think about my thoughts I see my thoughts in text and I don't remember when that wasn't the case even when I was a small child. I learned to read at four or five because my sister would read to me, and she learned because my mom read to her. My sister insisted that I didn't know how to read that I was just memorizing the words. Which is actually how reading works. You remember what that word looked like and what it means, so I kind of form thoughts in word shapes. I wonder what the jungle in my head would look like if I had learned idiograms instead.

Then, I wondered whether cultures that use ideograms rather than phonetic alphabet have an inherent advantage in processing information.

I wonder if we're reaching a point in civilization where people will go back to reading rather than watching videos. I do some video creation, and I used to blog years ago, but I kind of stopped blogging when there was nothing for me to read.

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LeaningSaguaro@reddit

Thank you for this.

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That70sShop@reddit

De Nadal. Literally.

My grandfather bought a 1969 Imperial that my dad swore had a Hemi even though, according to everything I've read, it should have had a 440 wedge under the hood. Regardless, it was a huge both of a car. There was a huge space from the engine to the radiator and then there was 18 in of nothing between the radiator and the front grill that was there for no other reason than to make the cars Hood 18 inches longer. I should look up what it weighs and what the horsepower was and then calculate power to wait but it was very heavy but that engine just growled and I remember on a trip that my dad need to make from Phoenix to Tucson to get a signature before it fax machines were invented and photocopy signatures were apparently acceptable he opened it up I hadn't seen my dad drive fast since my mom said something to him about it when I was about in third grade. He was driving a company, Torino, on a farm road somewhere in the central basin of California, and mom was meeting him at an overpass in the Cojntry Squire, and he came flying under the overpass.

Anyway, his excuse on that trip to Tucson was that every once in a while, you got to open 'er up blow the cobwebs out of the engine. Burn the carbon off the valves.

I don't know how much actual time I spent on this unintentional thread jack but that's but a small portion of what's rattles around in my head on a regular basis and sometimes it's good to just dump it out there because it feels like you have more room to think about something else that you knew you should have been thinking about but had worked its way off of Center Stage

This is an incredible read.

I figured you're like a real life Dale Gribble/Rusty Shackleford or Hunter S. Thompson just living out in the desert after faking his own death.

You should write more of your day to day frustrations and goings on, they're fascinating.

Hope you get another 100k out of that old zombie car and that your phone situation is all sorted!

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That70sShop@reddit

You ought not encourage my loquaciousness.(lLoquacity? Is that a word?) or you'll just get an ever-increading deluge of it.

Phone's sorted. Sorta. I love Samsung j7's and so my new phone number in my actual name is on a j7 which turns out to be not nearly as useful as it was 10 years ago because none of the apps support it, but it sure is Handy to have another phone line to call the now repaired phone when I misplace it.

If I was smart I would probably tackle the no start condition of the Prius that's got a relatively fresh motor but I already borrowed the battery pack out of it and I'm about to borrow the radiator and cooling fans out of it really I should move Parts the other direction but I tend to be stubborn I tend to not want to give up on the thing that I'm working on even if there's clearly a better project at hand.

That's not to say that I ever finished anything and that I won't drop any given project at any given time. I just tend to not leap over the nearest frog in a sensible manner to a better, more productive pursuit.

I do like scribbling. I once spent a week in the probably once glorious Siverbell Inn in Tucson. I really can't properly type, but at the time, I wished I had a manual mechanical typewriter instead of little Netbook I was typing on. I was going to write the Great American novel. I got a couple of pages in, but since the inspiration was somewhat autobiographical and sounded self-agrandizing, I got nowhere with it. I tried changing the protagonist point of view, but nothing really worked.

I discovered the place because I was encouraged to get a room there by a girl. Jessica had a nursing degree, but that wasn't how I met her or what she was doing to support herself at the time. She and her twins were residing their semi-permanently with as it turns out a husband. I had kind of missed that little detail because we had talked about our respective divorces, and it just didn't occur to me that people get married again.

While I was trying to write the story that I had in mind about events that have transpired the year to previously. I was oblivious that I was living within a brand new little drama. In my misspent youth I used to find people that didn't want to be found and one of the ways you do that it's called a premise call you basically call up people that might have information that you need and you con them into volunteering information that they probably wouldn't if they knew why you wanted the information. I got such a call in my room from the FBI, they were probably installed in a room across the little Courtyard and we're apparently watching Jessica trying to find a cab driver who was the target of their investigation. I have been worn by this odd Navy vet handyman that didn't seem to be very handy who was living in the thing watch out for that Jessica the FBI's been asking about her and I thought he was absolutely crazy until I got the premise call.

I dabble a bit and I like to write but the problem is life happens a lot faster than I can write about it.

That fascinating but non-productive week at the Silverbell Inn was the last time that I actually sat down expressly to write something to be read.

I've always been a wordy son of a daughter of a trucker, so I have some two accept the fact that I will inevitably produce verbiage at volume either virtually or audibly and it will be met with mixed reviews.

I lost any noticeable filter years ago, and what little remains continue to degrade as I age.

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Maximus13@reddit

Amazing.

Glad to hear the phone situation is sort of sorted.

How many lists do you think you're on, if any?

And I dig your writing style man, you need your own subreddit. Just you writing about random events in your life and cool experiences.

Hell, you could be making half of this shit up and I'd still read it.

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Also, I don't know if you've heard of it, but there's this new thing. I guess it's a Google product called YouTube?

From what I'm giving to understand I apparently was the last person in America to start watching YouTube I understand that there's a thing called Tick Tock out there but I literally never participated.

The curation on YouTube is pretty good and it's a great time sync if you want to waste a lot of time so I found myself watching things and because it knows what you watching for how long and so forth it just kept sending me things that I actually did want to know about.

I only use my YouTube so-called channel to upload some things to Facebook because I didn't want to download Zuckerberg's app on my phone and he quit letting me upload videos using the web version of Facebook and I accidentally filmed a YouTube short and my first short got 3,400 views so that sent me down a rabbit hole busting algorithms and so I'm not monetized but I do some creative endeavor there.

The thing is I've written probably hundreds of books it's just their one page here in one page there and often in environments such as exist here on Reddit where there's some let's just say colorful possibly even flavorful sections and I'm not particularly shy or any longer shame-based about any of my interest or predilections but the problem is with Crossing the NSFW with reality is that there are people who get their feelings hurt who think they can hurt your feeling by intruding on your reality because of whatever your predilections might be. Now they're not actually going to hurt my feelings even though they think that they might but it's an annoyance to give them the option of thinking they had a little Victory and at my age I'm getting to the point where I'm thinking I'm going to eventually merge everything, but most of what I've scribbled over the literal decades is lost a time. If I thought about it I might be able to find a scrap here or a scrap there but it's like this. Human beings before there was an internet and a permanent record of every time you went to detention in third grade had interactions with other humans and They Carried around that interaction in their head to use in future interactions but there really wasn't any way before Gutenberg to practically have some thoughts one day and share it with a different set of people another day without just repeating yourself.

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That70sShop@reddit

Years ago, when podcasts were becoming a thing, I had passengers consistently asked me, "How is it you don't have a podcast?" Or, "Do you write any of this down?"

When I first embarked on a career in Livery services a friend of a friend heard that I was going to drive a taxi and he said oh that's perfect for you that or bartending problem with bartending is I don't know much about alcohol.

What I'm really good at is breaking algorithms so when I had to go to the dark side I spent a lot of time probing it and figuring out what works what didn't work and what happened was from my particular strategy and it's not the only way to skin a cat it involved an awful lot of short rides. So my target market was drunk college students and lost tourist. So I run into everybody. I ran into a marketing executive for Nike one time who gave me a great tagline to put on my non-existent business card.

You don't set out to develop a patter and a style but just like bartenders the same kinds of topics and conversations and comments and jokes seem to come up and so it kind of gets honed even though you didn't set out to do that. I've always been a bit of a rocking tour and overly verbal but what's changed is I can look at the map do a quick calculation in my head figure out exactly how many sentences I have left to wrap up this story before I kick them out of the car and so it's forced me to be slightly less rambling than I was it used to be way worse than this.

I learned a lot about storytelling and $35,000 trips not that I again set out to do that but one of the things that I learned about storytelling is that stories change Without You intending them to happen and after a while you're not exactly sure where your story began to deviate from the actual events that you're talking about until some discrepancy crops up and you realize there's something wrong with your own story that as far as you know is the unvarnished truth.

Which by the way is my top recommendation for aspiring rack and tours. Tell the truth. It's a hell of a lot easier to tack on a fun phrase or connect a couple of stories than it is to try to untangle a plot that you're trying to create on the fly.

The second tip is to get old this is why old people have stories because there's so much in the rear view mirror everything reminds us of something and stories just start to pop out plus the older you are the more likely that you've told that story before because it came up at some time in the past.

Exciting_Vast7739@reddit

Ahhhhhhh my friend I think we would get along, but I live where antifreeze is necessary.

You may enjoy this fine piece of music from up north about being cheap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExOCc_bHj6U

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ChemistryOk9353@reddit

Bottom line …?

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That70sShop@reddit

There doesn't seem to be one. II don't know anything instructive about string theory, energy sinks, or wormholes, but I seem to constantly be passing through them. I never quite reach bottom, although I certainly seem headed that way

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ChemistryOk9353@reddit

So are living the life as they did in the movie interstellar?

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That70sShop@reddit

I don't know the movie, but from your comment, I get the general gist from context, and it sounds like yes.

I don't know which fictionverse that I became familiar with the general idea of alternate parallel universes, but I am quite convinced that such things exist and that I'm in the wrong one.

I've done a lot of different things to put groceries on the table over the years as did my father before me but the most common comment that I've gotten while I was engaged in remarkably dissimilar types of pursuits is, "What is THAT guy doing "

It's always easy to explain how it is that I fell into this or that because somebody went out of business or fired me and I found myself needing to put groceries on the table what's really hard to explain is how it is I came to persist in doing this or that.

I'm sure I'm going to have a long explanation in the next 5 or 10 years about how it came to pass in what is now the near future that the mother of my children that I met as a co-worker 35 years ago might well be a co-worker once again because of some synergy that exists. Between what she's currently doing and what I need in the way of flexibility. What makes that an unlikely story is that we've been divorced for about a dozen years.

I think the parallel universe version of myself probably would have married her anyway and I don't know that much of anything would have changed but man if the one Universe could talk to the other one we'd probably have some suggestions

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glaciers4@reddit

Does this read like this because I’m high? You were high? Both? Wow. I finished every damn word and I’m still not sure wtf that was all about. Maybe it’s me? Because I’m high? Regardless,10/10.

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

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I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

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That70sShop@reddit

I'm oddly not distressed. It's kind of interesting that with each cascading failure, there was a solution. People pay good money for "interesting" experiences and adventures.

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nottlrktz@reddit

Oh man, that time with Undertaker and Mankind and the Hell in a Cell Match. It can crop up when you least expect it!

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mountainsunsnow@reddit

I absolutely was

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Turb0_Lag@reddit

You appear to be either unemployed, retired, and/or have little value for your time.

Yeah that radio is a fantastic idea. I'm going to put them up in my dealer space when I figure out what they are and probably no one will buy them but someone should I have a couple of am only probably 1950s Ford push button radios that I haven't tried but I'm sure still work. For what they are.

My truck has a factory radio delete plate manual steering a 5-speed transmission a 2-speed rear end no dual master cylinder no power brakes no power steering no air conditioning so roll down windows and vent wings and no chrone. It'll be fantastic for moving aside car-shaped boulders on freeways during the zombie apocalypse. In theory, I'm not exactly sure which rear axle (all of if, I think) and spring package (most of it) that I have. The vehicle is capable of perhaps being a 24,000 # GVW truck, so I might be overcompensating a little bit.

All of my Priuses are aging out of the fleet and I have these idle ideas that I've probably never going to get around to but I would love to ditch the fly by wire steering ans the entire ABS traction control braking system and put in manual brakes.

That whole idea is pretty dumb though because if I wanted to have fun while looking like I was driving a Prius it would make a lot more sense to just simply drop a carcass onto something interesting.

The dumbest but theoretically plausible idea I have is to borrow the front clip from a second Prius and install it in the rear of a Prius so that I have two internal combustion engines two battery packs two electric Drive systems two independent ABS systems and two fly by wire power steering and steerable rear wheels. In theory you could have a rumble seat driver steering the rear of the thing like a fire truck. It would be incredibly unstable and stupid on the highway but it might be fun at a burnout competition

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elmwoodblues@reddit

We had a big meeting with a company VP, about 100 guys. Wages came up and the VP pointed out that, on his way into the building, he estimated that 2/3 of all the cars in the lot were less than 3 years old, which was supported by a show of hands.

"I also saw a very old, clean, red pickup. I would bet that whoever owns that truck has as much money in the bank as I do."

Everyone looked at me. I retired three years later, at 57.

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DudleyAndStephens@reddit

One thing I'd add though is that a certain point a car is going to become unreliable no matter how well maintained it is.

I'm all for squeezing every reasonable bit of life that you can out of a car but at a certain point it will start breaking down so much that it affects your ability to do things like hold down a job! Planes are the same way. Dispatch reliability matters.

Oh I'm a fill the tank all the way up because I'm going to find some way to limp at home. I drove haul trucks for 17,000 hours, and in all that time, I only had to call to have a safety berm place behind a tire because I was completely dead on the road. And one of those times knowing what I know now I do know a way that I could have at least limped it to the dump and dump that truck out. I once made it all the way uphill to a dump fully loaded with a turbo completely out which is theoretically impossible because that means you don't have enough horsepower to physically move that much weight uphill. Because that's literally what horsepower is it's a measure of how fast you can move how much weight up a delta of elevation.

What I did was basically like s-curves. I made my own switchbacks back and forth on the road so that I lengthen the run and lowered the rise.

The Hybrid battery pack had been going out in this Prius for a long time and I have two other Priuses with much fresher battery packs and it really wasn't that bad a job to change it but I limped it literally a mile and a half past the absolute last Jewel of energy that was ever going to come out of that battery. It took me about an hour and a half to get that car limped off the freeway by continually resetting the computer and tricking it into running just a little bit further. After I got it off the freeway but not quite to the QuikTrip that I thought was right off the freeway but really was a mile south some young Amazon worker in the middle of the night gave me a little tow with his truck.

Whie I waited for the sun to come up so that I could impose on a friend or family member to figure out how I was getting that car home to work on it it suddenly occurred to me that I have multiple avenues that provide me free Towing and I had one that would tow me 25 miles and I was 24 miles from home. I still insisted on limping that car for 2 hours when I could have just called while I was on the side of the freeway. I'm really stubborn in self-defeating ways.

This is why I would never be able to write an autobiography and it would take a pretty robust team of biographers to explain what I did at any given time because it's usually so nonsensical in hindsight that it requires these long circumlocations to explain how it is I came to do what it is that I did and why it seemed to make sense of the time and either worked or didn't.

Just for example look how difficult it is for me to explain why I'm explaining any particular part of any of these stories

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Embarrassed_Angle_59@reddit

Works for underwear too

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That70sShop@reddit

That I'm slightly more likely to replace. I've always liked a little support so when the elastic decides to leave the chat it's probably time to reluctantly order some more

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switchbladeeatworld@reddit

the duct tape phase

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That70sShop@reddit

I don't know if you know Volkswagens, but under the back seat, there's a little coupler that connects the shift first output shaft in the forward facing tail housing of the transaxle with rearward headed connecting rod that attaches to the pivot point of the shifter.

Matchboxx@reddit

I work in upper management in a high-income career.

I drive a 2007 truck with 300k miles on it.

I get a lot of looks and I just explain that every time I turn the key, it starts. Why do I need something newer?

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Darmok47@reddit

PragDaddy@reddit

You’re not wrong, but to a certain degree the age of a car matters. Look at videos of any car model doing a crash test from the 90s vs that same model brand new from today. Which would you rather have your family in? How much money is that crash scenario worth?

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steelers3814@reddit

Yeah, I’ve never understood the guys that drive around in their 96 Accord claiming it’s the best option. If you don’t have a wife or kids, it’s fine. But would you really take your kids to school every day in a 30 year old car that would break in two when hit by an Explorer?

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Potato-Engineer@reddit

I'm old enough to remember when the 90s vehicles were so much safer than older vehicles.

suuntasade@reddit

yeah but we are so old that the 90's car for us is now the one from 2010's and they are decent in crash stuff too.

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BarleyWineIsTheBest@reddit

Sort of, some models went through changes in mid-2010s. 2014 to 2015 change in the F-150 was pretty significant, for example.

Every time the IIHS adds new tests, manufacturers change things to be good at them. Plus car manufacturers have added things like automatic emergency breaking in the last few years.

Yes, the holds are pressurized. Some of the stuff they do carry can't tolerate being in an unpressurized, non-climate controlled environment, so from a logistics standpoint it is just best to have everything pressurized. Plus, as someone else mentioned, it probably isn't cost advantageous for the manufacturer to build a non-pressurized version of the aircraft anyway.

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TheMuon@reddit

Freighters that have a passenger variant (e.g. the 777F and the 777-200LR) are pressurized since it's easier engineer and certify them both with more standard equipment. It also makes future cargo conversions much easier.

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TT11MM_@reddit

Also for Cargo Ops, especially for parcel delivery companies such as DHL, FedEx and UPS fuel burn is much less relevant than dor passenger airlines.

Many cargo planes only 2 short flights per night, and wait the entire day on the apron. depreciation is a much more relevant factor than fuel burn is. With a old 757 or MD-11, the depreciation is close to zero.

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bloodyshogun@reddit

Another factor is the business model for passenger variants of MD-11. MD-11's competitors are 777.

These planes usually fly international routes where:

A large portion of the revenue comes from business / first class seats, where new-ness of the plane matters
Routes where slots are limited. The lots might be very expensive and you absolutely need the best ROI. You might also lose your slot from the airport, if you insist on operating a MD-11 while competitors promise to operate the latest planes

From a business standpoint

Cargo planes are likely to use passenger planes that are no longer modern, thus converted to cargo. They are cheaper
Plenty of MD-11 that fit the bill
Less 777s that fit the bill.

Thus, where you would realistically use MD-11 as a passenger plane. You probably can't compete and would lose money due to high slot fees or lose that slot entirely. Cargo planes often take off and land at night and don't have to fly through the busiest passenger airports.

Alternatively, a new 777 is still expensive there aren't that many used 777 ready to exit the passenger business.

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DudleyAndStephens@reddit

there aren't that many used 777 ready to exit the passenger business.

As far as I know there was also never a conversion program for 777-200ERs so that wasn't even an option.

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bloodyshogun@reddit

Yah, I am not sure so didn't say there weren't any. But, as far as I know there hasn't been any 777 passenger to freighter conversion just yet.

FedEx does have more 777s (dedicated freighters from built) than MD-11s, too.

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DudleyAndStephens@reddit

They're starting to do 777-300ER P2F conversions. The Nomadic Aviation guys did a film where they moved a 77W for freighter conversion a few months ago.

The story I heard is that the 777 had composite floor beams that made a conversion of the -200ER uneconomical. A number of large operators of that type also kept their planes in service for a long time (AA, UA, BA all come to mind, I believe ANA and JAL also kept their 777-200ERs for 20+ years) so feedstock was limited.

Apparently turning the 77W into a freighter does involve replacing the floor beams. Maybe they're such capable planes and there are younger models available so the more expensive modification makes sense? Not sure about that.

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Wear is more to do with pressurisation cycles.
Passenger flights go through more cycles than cargo craft

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OtterApocalypse@reddit

I flew in a US military cargo plane from Virginia to Bermuda in the mid-70s. Space-A style.

It was fucking awesome. I've since flown literally around the world in everything from cargo planes to top of the line executive aircraft. And stayed in executive suites like the President's cottage in Hawaii (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShqcanEKnsM)

Things like this amuse me though: FedX, for example, still operates a fleed of MD 11s

A whole fleed of them?

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P4t13nt_z3r0@reddit

Aircraft life is also measured in pressure cycles. Wide bodies have much fewer cycles per year than narrow body aircraft used on short routes. They can buy old aircraft from carriers and run them for years since they generally don't use nearly as many cycles per year as passenger planes.

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abrandis@reddit

Are cargo planes pressurized in the same way as passenger planes?

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This and we'll built and we'll maintained planes can fly quite a bit (see B52) ....

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Available_Hunt7303@reddit

United's 777-200 and 767 ops in a nutshell

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DudleyAndStephens@reddit

UA's 767s are also a special case because they're significantly smaller than other modern widebodies.

An example I like to use is UA's service to Switzerland. Small country, but they operate daily flights to ZRH from EWR, ORD & IAD and GVA from IAD and EWR. I'm sure that using relatively small 767-300s helps make that possible. Filling an A330-300 or 787-9 on all of those frequencies would be much harder.

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Some DC-8s used by cargo carriers most certainly did get new engines.

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DavidBrooker@reddit

When the Mars Colonies attempt a rebellion in 2248, some B-52H that came off the assembly line in 1962 and is on its eighth re-engine program will be sent to drop bombs on suspected rebel camps hiding in the Valles Marineris. It still takes off horizontally from Minot, North Dakota.

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Skycbs@reddit

OMG. I love that Revolutions podcast.

60 series still had JT3s It was the 70 series that was upgraded with CFM engines.

It wasn't called a NEO because 1) It wasn't a new airplane, it was an aftermarket retrofit. 2) The acronym had not yet been used.

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Messyfingers@reddit

Re-engining existing airframes already in service outside of military applications is virtually unheard of. The Dc-8 re-engining might be one of the only instances of a commercial airliner. Pretty much all other instances of am airframe being given new engines is as part of a new generation, where they only are installed on new airframes, rather than existing ones.

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WoundedAce@reddit

Laughs in C-5 RERP

Kc-135s are also refitted with CF6s, you can make an argument that airliners don’t re-engine airplanes, but it’s not unheard of and a black and white “this won’t/can’t happen” response isn’t really accurate

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fly_awayyy@reddit

I know what you’re trying to say but the KC-135 has CFMs not the CF6 on widebodies.

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WoundedAce@reddit

Fair about the cfm vs cf6, cf6 refit from tf39 on the c5 But the military isn’t necessarily profit driven and it’s not unheard of to re-engine aircraft

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Ellyan_fr@reddit

Also the military does far less cycles with their airframes and has a less strict certification process.

And it normally has much bigger fleets than any airline and can afford to have planes grounded for retrofit.

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guynamedjames@reddit

I meant retrofits. It's not super easy or cheap but it lets you keep an old airframe in service and if you don't care about aesthetics it's a shit load cheaper than a new plane.

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spedeedeps@reddit

There are areas where it's not legal to retrofit a different engine into a car because that will invalidate its emissions tests. You certainly can't retrofit an engine to any commercial aircraft without the endeavor being supported by the airframe manufacturer as well as the engine provider and costing untold number of millions.

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guynamedjames@reddit

Correct. And millions is a lot cheaper than a new plane.

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Ellyan_fr@reddit

This untold number of millions is certainly not cheaper than a new plane. And you don't get a new plane with a new cycle life out of it.

It makes sense to the military because airframes fly far less than daily but to any airline it's better to get a new plane with all the other efficiency gains.

Also cargo airlines can buy younger used planes to replace their older used planes when it makes sense economically.

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Kojetono@reddit

Retrofits haven't been done on large airliners since the 707.

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thekingofspicey@reddit

It doesn’t look like it’s from the 70s, it is from the 70s lol

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itz_me_shade@reddit

Ah so the same reason I don't upgrade my aircrafts in openTTD.

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AppropriateCap8891@reddit

It is not uncommon for many passenger aircraft near the end of their life to get bought by a freight company and have the interior gutted so it can be used for a few more years hauling cargo.

And at least in the 1980s, several air freight companies actually ran charter services (mostly for the military). When I was in the military I took multiple flights on passenger charters done by Fed-Ex and Flying Tigers.

Depends on the use, but for the mail & parcel airlines it is usually a lot of ground time.

To permit overnight delivery, all the planes need to arrive at a hub at the same time, then sit for 3-4 hours while the packages get sorted, and then depart again. This usually results in a rotation like this:

18:00: aircraft departs outstation.

22:00: aircraft arrives at hub.

22:00 - 02:00: parcels get sorted

02:00: aircraft departs hub.

06:00: aircraft arrives at outstation.

06:00 - 18:00: aircraft sits at outstation.

The aircraft has nothing to do at the outstation, as all parcels left during the evening. Flying it somewhere empty is not economical because it needs to be back in the outstation for the evening flight anyway.

A passenger airline tries to spread the high leasing costs of a new aircraft over as many flight hours a day as they can. Ideally a pax aircraft will be in the air for 18-20 hours a day. As the aircraft is flying a lot, reducing the fuel consumption and thus hourly operating costs makes sense => new aircraft.

The feeder cargo aircraft can‘t be in the air for any longer than 8 hours (from example above), as it wouldn‘t work for their business model. The higher operating costs (fuel) don‘t matter too much if you can keep the leasing costs down by having old aircraft.

fivefivesixfmj@reddit

I love the banged up interiors from the 70’s.

one_time_i_dreampt@reddit

Only the cabin areas get pressurized, so for cargo aircraft the corridor, crew quarters, and cockpit. There's no need to pressurise the cargo area. What I think is a bigger deal is that cargo doesn't complain if a plane is loud/old or whatever.

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Lufttanzer@reddit

Now this is completely untrue lmao. That's not how pressuization works. Why do people on r/aviation make up "facts" all the time? lol I'm in the industry, but even a google search/any youtube video on cargo ops would be.. illuminating i'm sure

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NCC1701-Enterprise@reddit

Despite not being as efficent as newer aircraft they fill the role and are cheaper than replacing them.

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gnartung@reddit

Cargo airlines generally fly a single leg at night and then sit around all day unloading and loading. Their flight schedules revolve around overnight deliveries and bringing all the packages to major shipping and sorting hubs. The result of this is that aircraft efficiency has a lower impact on operating margin than it does for an airline, and thus the cost/benefit of upgrading aircraft vs flying the relatively less efficient ones doesn’t shake out the way it does for airlines.

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JPAV8R@reddit

Why are the utilizations different? Because the flying is substantially different. Cargo by air NEEDS to fly a long distance to make logistical sense.

A regional jet that flies from NY to Boston many times a day for 10+ hours with multiple crew is providing a service that cargo doesn’t need at that volume. It would make more sense to fill up a few trailers and ship it over the road.

That may be, but I think as a whole cargo aircraft utilization is far lower than passenger aircraft utilization rates. I was curious so I tried to find supporting numbers and think I found something that illustrates this.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/policy_guidance/benefit_cost/econ-value-section-3-capacity.pdf

_rth_@reddit

Actually FedEx flies lithium ion batteries just fine, they charge extra for it and it gets isolated in the cargo plane. How do u think iPhones get shipped?

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Tuepflischiiser@reddit

Just after they asked for citizenship in Costa Rica.

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Entire-Art-2075@reddit

Smart containers have their own satellite internet connection. They are used for cargo that's (very) sensitive & expensive. The owner of the cargo can track all sorts of parameters like temperature, pressure, humidity, vibrations, shocks, tilting, location etc. in real time. If it's being stored wrong they will call the shipper to do something about it before the cargo is ruined. And if it gets stolen, they can track it and call local police / security firms right away.

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starxidas@reddit

Are you referring to containers for ships or ULDs?

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Entire-Art-2075@reddit

Both. These are bespoke units, property of the cargo owner.

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sablerock7@reddit

Passenger airlines acquire newer models to maximize margins (fuel savings, more pax range etc). Cargo airlines have a much different operating cost structure that allows them to have higher operating costs that come with older models.

There are exceptions, like Delta, which have some tired airframes (767) still in service.

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SubarcticFarmer@reddit

I think something you're leaving out is dispatch reliability. Cargo airlines can afford to operate with a much lower dispatch reliability than passenger airlines. Boxes don't care if they are 2 hours late. For most airlines dispatch reliability drops dramatically as aircraft age. Delta has been able to leverage their TechOps division into a higher dispatch reliability than you'd normally expect with the 767s. That said I think the 767s are even then starting to age.

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DubiousSandwhich@reddit

Boxes don't care if they are 2 hours late

Boxes don't but the people who paid to have them shipped do. Cargo operations usually run like clock work (if they're good). Lots of contracts have been lost due to delayed deliveries.

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SubarcticFarmer@reddit

I get FedEx shipments all the time and I can't remember the last time they met their originally promised timeline. They don't back up their timelines anymore either (nor does the USPS for that matter).

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PostsDifferentThings@reddit

the thing about subjective evidence is that we all have it

so, for me, i almost never have delayed packages from any one specific shipper at all. its extremely rare anything is delivered after the assigned delivery date.

does that mean that fedex doesn't have delays? of course not. im just trying to show you that your personal experience means (and i say this only to drive the point home) jack shit.

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SubarcticFarmer@reddit

That's the thing though. If FedEx really cared that much about on time being regularly delayed wouldn't be a thing and they would revert to guaranteed timing like they used to have. I feel like you either work for FedEx or don't actually get stuff shipped that often. I guess you could be just lucky but I'm skeptical of that.

Golgen_boy@reddit

I think in a few years Delta is going to buy A330neos for the 767

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FalconX88@reddit

There are exceptions, like Delta, which have some tired airframes (767) still in service.

Currently there seem to be more exceptions than the norm because Airbus and Boeing just can't deliver fast enough. You see airlines flying old A330s, 767s, 747s, hell even A340s because they can't get new planes fast enough.

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NewChapter25@reddit

thank you

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JudgeGusBus@reddit

Add in that there are thousands of pilots available who can fly the old ones.

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pr1ntf@reddit

Shout out to Cockpit Casual. The only aviation YouTube channel I consistently enjoy.

Also, sweet jazz music.

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ChorltonCumLightly@reddit

So what's the actual market for brand new cargo aircraft? Who's buying them and why over a second hand refit?

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SunsetNYC@reddit

A modern B777F can carry about 15% more payload, has about 20% greater range, burns about 1.5 tons less fuel per hour and has about 15% better fuel economy per ton of cargo than a MD-11F.

Many current airlines with large fleets of passenger 777s are willing to pay the premium for a brand new aircraft in order to maintain aircraft type continuity. Additionally, many of these airlines are based in the Middle East or East Asia, and they use these aircraft to the fullest extent of their range, often transporting cargo between continents. By doing so, they really maximize and fully appreciate the efficiencies.

As others here stated - wide-body freight aircraft fly 1-2x a day - and even in their previous lives as passenger planes before they were converted - they were generally used on long-haul routes in the first place with the same utilization of 1-2x a day (if that). Your average E-175 or 737-800 is landing and taking off 3-5x a day on short-haul domestic routes.

Sooner or later, they'll reach the end of their design lives due to metal fatigue and will need to retire anyway. Your average 767 will get to that point much later than a 737.

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Golf38611@reddit

The fatigue is also slowed down by the weights. Cargo aircraft like FedEx and UPS will often take off “cubed out” meaning they have filled every cubic inch that they can. However they rarely takeoff “grossed out” meaning that they are nowhere near max weight. Think about the last package you got. Big box. Lots of styrofoam pellets. Lots of just air. But also lots of cubic inches. A cargo box weight of styrofoam pellets and air for your rubber dog turd weighs a whole lot less than the weight per cubic inch of a human or a piece of luggage.

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Rubes2525@reddit

Because it is cheaper to buy old, used aircraft than new ones. Cargo planes sit around for much longer, usually doing only two flights a day, so poor fuel efficiency and high cycle count isn't much of an issue for them. Passenger ops, meanwhile, are constantly running their planes, doing many flights with quick turnarounds, so it makes sense to get the newest, most efficient aircraft because fuel cost turns into a much larger factor.

Also, the MD-11 has unique features that you can't get in new aircraft. I believe it's the fact that it has a really fat fuselage, similar to the 777, but can also operate on shorter runways. Basically, they can pack a bigger class of containers with more boxes and fly them into smaller airports with the MD-11.

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Golf38611@reddit

There is also another aspect to the 11’s that keep them going. And that is the cubic inches they carry. There is not a direct replacement. The 777 has way more cubes than needed for the typical 11 route so burning fuel to carry lost holes - and the companies absolutely hate empty cubes. And the 767 has too few this extra flights and at least on of the planes will be partially empty. If an manufacturer were to build a plane that has the exact same cubes (+ I’m gonna guess 5 or 10 %) then I think FedEx and UPS would be happy to drop the 11’s in favor of the new bird.

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satavtech@reddit

The first ppart of your response is very accurate. Pressurization cycles are a key metric in airframe life. The second part is not accurate at all. All large commercial freighters have pressurized fuselages. To re-engineer an aircraft to only have a pressurized flight deck would be prohibitively costly and you would still have pressurization fatigue in parts of the fuselage, thus negating in upsides.

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jckipps@reddit

During my youth, I, my five siblings, and parents rode everywhere in a 1992 Dodge van. That exact same van is my daily-driver today, but it's missing the seats and is packed full of tools instead.

It could still be used for people-transport today, but it's just not all that nice inside anymore.

Because old planes are incredibly cheap. A new freighter, especially those newer generations is expensive, even accounting to fuel efficiency, load volume etc.

Here's a reference : MD-11 (used) costs ~10mils New A350F / 777F cost ~ 350mils Heck, even a used A320 costs ~ 20mils

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rythejdmguy@reddit

Because money

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KarlDavies90@reddit

If it's not broke don't fix it

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the_Q_spice@reddit

I mean, we have been in the process of retiring all our MD-11s. Only 25 are still flying right now.

Now we mostly operate 757s 767s, 777s, A300s, and ATRs and C208s for smaller regional “feeder” flights. We are likely transitioning from the C208 to either ATRs or the new C408 that was designed specifically for us within a year or two.

The FedEx ramp I work at transitioned from MD-11s for our bigs to 757s and A300s several years ago now

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Entire-Art-2075@reddit

I don't get why you're being downvoted. You ask good questions, and so far nobody has really explained it properly to you.

Yes, passengers complain about comfort and delays, while cargo doesn't care. But the financial implications are a bit more complex than they seem.

A company has two kinds of expenses: opex (operating expense) and capex (capital expenses).

Capex is all the money you spend on long-term assets (i.e. the infrastructure to do business with). Airplanes and all the related equipment, hangar space etc. Capex provides you with a certain capacity to do business (move cargo / passengers), and it doesn't really change month-to-month if you use all of it or not. The capex will still be largely the same.

Sidenote: capex is usually funded with (cheap) long-term corporate debt. The interest is low, because the bank can sell the assets if the loan isn't paid back, so their risk is low. The company likes this too, because it means they can spread the cost of all their infrastructure over a longer period of time, instead of having to pay for fifty new airplanes in 2025 all at once. So even though capex is long-term investments, it's still a fairly stable yearly cost.

Opex is all the normal daily expenses. Fuel, wages, training, routine maintenance, airport slots... These do change a lot depending on how much business you do.

Low-cost airlines have the highest opex, because they fly their planes as much as possible, and they fly them hard. Meaning a lot of takeoffs & landings, and as little time on the ground between flights as possible. They set their own schedules and ticket prices, and can adjust both to make sure their planes are filled & flying year-round. It makes sense for low-cost airlines to invest in reducing their opex.

Investing in new planes increases capex, but it's the single most effective way to reduce opex in aviation, because newer planes use less fuel, need less maintenance, and often even need less crew. But you need to get a loan, and pay interest. So you have your army of accountants run the numbers, and you keep investing in capex as long as it makes sense. Spending an extra $1 per year on newer equipment, at a 5% interest rate, makes sense as long as you're sure the investment will reduce your operating costs by at least $1.1. Then you have a 5% profit margin on the increase in capex.

Cargo airlines can keep their capex very low by flying old planes. $30 million for an old plane vs $300 million for a new plane. They also have lower opex, because they make less flights per day.

So if they buy a new cargo plane, they need to offset the intrest on an additional 270 million of debt (give or take 13.5 million / year at 5%) in capex with the reduced opex in fuel, maintenance and crew for that single airplane. This doesn't make sense for a lot of cargo aircraft, because they don't fly often enough. So a new plane wouldn't reduce their opex enough to make it worth the additional capex.

And then there's the economic risk: keeping capex low makes a company robust to fluctuations in demand. If the economy takes a downturn and the demand for air cargo plummets, you're in a much better position if your fixed costs are low.

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Tojo_Ce@reddit

This is the biggest reason. Thanks for pointing this out. The most economical want to fly airplanes it to fly them as many hours a day as you can, provided they're full. And in general, the more efficient and maintenance-free an airplane is, the better. Another way to look at it: Fly as many passengers as you can with as few airframes as possible. As a result, utilization rates are quite high in passenger airlines. You don't stop paying the lease/note/etc. on a plane just because it's sitting.

But as you point out, cargo planes necessarily spend a lot of time sitting around. There's a FedEx 757 at my local airport that flies 3 hours in the evening, then 3 hours in the morning, spending the rest of the day on the ground here or in Memphis.

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kscessnadriver@reddit

You can say IFL

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Imasluttycat@reddit

Lol yeah I wasn't sure how well known they were, I spent my entire childhood watching them come in and out of PTK

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Kilo_Juliett@reddit

FedEx is phasing out the MDs.

Get a scrapped plane from passenger duties at fraction of cost, convert it into cargo for few millions. You have a brand new cargo plane, with just an older body frame, inside is revamped.

Reduced purchase costs can reduce RoI

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Signal-Treacle-5512@reddit

It's pure profit that's why.

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jaxjags2100@reddit

Ask the US Air Force why they still fly cargo planes from the 60s.

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More_Than_I_Can_Chew@reddit

Cycle count. Cargo puts many times less cycles on engines and airframes. Pax carriers are the opposite.

So when it's done in the pax world it's got a lifetime a head of it for cargo.

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TigerBriel@reddit

This guy understands

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IrateAutoTech@reddit

The same reason all the Great Lakes freighters are mostly pre 1950.

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Hold old is the B-52 again?

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AssignmentFar1038@reddit

Because there’s no need to impress the customers with a fancy plane.

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ReidBuch@reddit

The best freighter is a cheap freighter

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drupi79@reddit

in the case of FedEx for example a majority of our MD-11's and A300-600's were bought new as freighters to begin with. airplanes aren't measured in years of service exactly but hours flown and cycles. most cargo aircraft while old in years are relatively young in terms of hours flown and cycles.

The MD's are going away slowly. which for me is sad as I have a soft spot for the 3 hole giants. they are being replaced by the 767 and 777. Fuel costs are the driver for that. Airbus A300-600's will be around for a while still due to being 2 engine and can lift a ton of cargo.

rumors are the 757 will be replaced by the A321 Neo freighter but nobody really knows.

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ussoriskany34@reddit

It still flies, plus it is cheaper to acquire than new stock.

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5folhas@reddit

Wendover did a video about that.

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Lukaloo@reddit

No wonder it was a fedex cargo plane that caused Cast Away to happen

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Glum-Ad7761@reddit

I had an old 440 powered 1975 Ramcharger 4x4 that I took to 350,000 miles, when it finally developed a rod knock. Still started right up.

My next Ram was a 1997 model. I woke the 360 up with some power adders and a tune. I drove that rig to 235,000 miles. Before giving it to my son. He drove it to 260,000 before selling it as it was eating up his entry level job paycheck in fuel costs. I still see it from time to time. Local guy bought it.

Substantial-Bullion@reddit

Here’s the real answer: because you can get them cheap.

Think about buying a new airplane. A new 747 lists for about $400 million, whereas an old Airbus A300 may be just a fraction of that.

To get your value out of a new 747, it needs to fly nearly around the clock, which passenger airliners in fact do. Cargo airliners, however, spend an inordinate amount of time on the ground. For example, let’s send a package from a big city like Philadelphia to Los Angeles overnight. The package gets dropped off and to the airport, loaded on an airplane at around 10pm, flown to Memphis (FedEx’s super hub), where it is loaded up on an airplane going to LA. The plane it flew in on is loaded with packages going to Philadelphia and the plane takes off again by about 3am, landing in Philadelphia a few hours later.

The plane then sits. All day. Until the pattern repeats itself the following night.

That’s a lot of hours to be on the ground. So, to minimize the sunk cost of not flying all. the. time., they buy older cheaper airplanes that still do the trick.

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Shart_twice@reddit

So they can conjure “cast away” plot lines into reality

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Life_Depth2338@reddit

cuz cargo doesnt care about comfort so you might aswell use it till the plane isnt flyable anymore

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Appropriate-Gate-987@reddit

Because MD10s and MD11s still remains to carry high cargo, but the airlines with the return flight carry more in fuel than the cargo so its very unusual but the airlines somehow can pull it off.

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ThePrimCrow@reddit

The MD-11 holds more cargo than the newer 767s. I used to load both of these planes for FedEx. All the packages go into special metal canisters.

There are two sizes of canisters used to load the top half of the plane’s cargo hold. The MD-11 can accommodate the largest size canister side by side throughout the whole plane, maximizing cargo space.

I suspect because of the long wait times for new aircraft. Passengers want the creature comforts. So along with the advances in fuel efficiency and other advances, you also get things like EDMs, satellite internet, new entertainment systems, dynamic cabin lighting and so on. The airlines are in a constant fight for customers, and depending on the target customer base, many passengers will pay the higher price for a nicer aircraft. So airlines largely dominate the new aircraft market.

Then you have the freight carriers, that don’t care so much. A shipping crate doesn’t care how nice the aircraft is. Sure, having a more fuel efficient aircraft would be nice, but your probably not going to want to take the 6-8 year wait time for a new A350F when you can buy an airlines surplus A330 today, and convert it to a freighter for a fraction of the cost, and then fly its wings off until the airframe is houred out.

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richbiatches@reddit

Forget about MD-11’s! Somewhere theres still DC3’s hauling stuff. Ponder on *that for a minute!

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tiny_chaotic_evil@reddit

as long as it costs less per year to operate than buying, maintenance, and fuel on a new plane, they'll fly it til it can't fly no more

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holidayfromtapioca@reddit

Wendover mentioned this once, in addition to other points, a lot of these planes spend half a day sitting around in Memphis (or whatever central shipping hub is in the area), then leave after all the other planes have visited. This allows most sorting of freight going to and from different areas.

Passenger airlines try to maximize the time they are earning revenue. Airlines want the planes flying as much as possible. New airplanes generally are more expensive to acquire, but have lower operational (fuel and maintenance) costs.

Cargo airlines generally spend much less time in the air. Old airplanes generally are significantly cheaper to acquire and have higher operational costs. It's cheaper to pay a bit more in fuel and maintenance while saving significantly on the acquisition.

Interestingly cargo aircraft that fly more actually tend to be newer. You'll see FedEx flying MD-11s within 4-5 hrs of MEM and have 77Fs operate to Asia.

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AccordionWhisperer@reddit

They'll fly these until it is more economical to upgrade.

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Ergotron_2000@reddit

Story I heard when contracting at FedxEx was that they got the MD11s for a bit more than the fuel it took to get them out of the storage yard. Then their cargo aircraft fly twice a day where passenger aircraft fly as many times as possible so, it is a different balance of purchase price and cost to operate. And as others have mentioned, boxes dont care what a plane looks like.

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Most cargo airlines particularly ones that fly overnight cargo use their air planes a lot less. Many only fly once a night and there’s no guarantee that’s a super long flight. If you’re only using the aircraft 4-6 hours a day then you don’t care as much because

It’s cargo so you don’t need passenger satisfaction
Fuel costs matter less since you aren’t flying as much

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Lowpingmaster@reddit

older planes usually get converted p to f

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Ok-Conference5204@reddit

If it flies, then they use it. Regardless of if it’s a flying shitbox. If it works, then it works. You also posted a picture of a DC/MD-10, not -11, as the -11 has a Center Main Gear.

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prancing_moose@reddit

Because they’re flown up to the point where it makes more financial sense to switch to a whole new fleet of aircraft.

I think public perception is a big factor. I think the public equates older planes with being less safe planes. And older planes with shoddy interiors feel even more unsafe, like the airline is cutting costs on maintenance.

meansamang@reddit

Yes, exactly.

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twarr1@reddit

B-52 Ship of Thesius

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meansamang@reddit

Even on the oldest ones I imagine there are quite a number of components that are original.

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twarr1@reddit

No doubt.

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Drenlin@reddit

Because the cost of refitting the outdated interior of an old one is prohibitively expensive compared to selling the old plane and buying a new one.

It doesn't matter what the inside of a cargo plane looks like, so there's no reason to do this.

Military planes are the same - we're still flying a few planes from the late 1950s.

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Astramael@reddit

Because the cost of refitting the outdated interior of an old one is prohibitively expensive compared to selling the old plane and buying a new one

They're leasing them. And they are operating on extremely thin margins.

Cargo planes sit around a lot. An airline has to keep the plane in the air as much as they can to make buying a new aircraft worth it.

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randomroute350@reddit

Not true at 5x. A lot of our jets are airborne a ton

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Deadpool2015@reddit

Are you buying them all new ones? They’re not exactly cheap.

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planko13@reddit

Don’t freight planes spend a lot more time on the ground? just the one flight a day from the hub to the spoke.

R5Jockey@reddit

You: “Properly maintained (maybe not at Boeing)”

You claimed Boeing may not be properly maintaining airplanes.

I think another reason is that companies like FedEx or UPS don’t operate solely as an airline. While passenger airlines, with extremely thin profit margins retire old inefficient planes for ones with better fuel and more seats, a cargo operator can absorb those operational costs more easily

Also, they are of course far cheaper than buying a brand new aircraft, offsetting the cost even more.

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paparazzi83@reddit

Imagine if the OP saw how old the smaller cargo operator aircraft are

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ZiggyWiddershins@reddit

That ain’t no shit…. I was once asked, “what’s the biggest rivet you have?”, from a cargo operator. Then he made a gesture with his finger about the size of a dime or so…😱

I dealt with private aircraft parts that were heavily regulated by the FAA. There are strict rules regarding how much modification you can do for private aircraft. Those rules are very lacking on small cargo.

Phagemakerpro@reddit

You can split the cost of owning and operating an aircraft into the costs of owning the aircraft and the costs of operating the aircraft. I’m not being flippant.

A brand-new aircraft has very low costs of operation (burns less fuel, needs less maintenance) but a high cost of ownership. Passenger airlines can capitalize on this by maximizing the utilization of the airframe during a given day (keeping it flying as much as possible). In addition, newer aircraft have better dispatch reliability, which is important when you’re operating on tight schedules.

By contrast, older aircraft cost almost nothing to own, but have higher operating costs. FedEx flies a plane from SDF to, say, PDX every morning. It drops off packages and then sits at PDX until the evening when it loads the day’s packages and flies back to SDF. So that’s a model of low utilization where an older aircraft makes sense. There’s also more flexibility for technical delays.

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nyrb001@reddit

Hadn't thought about the idle time factor... Makes sense. Low ownership cost means low hourly cost for the plane to sit not being used, or being loaded / unloaded.

I'd imagine cargo aircraft pick up fewer hours annually too, which means the lifespan of the aircraft would be longer in terms of calendar time vs a plane being used continuously in passenger service.

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Phagemakerpro@reddit

Now there is some wiggle room here. For example, the 777F was purchased new by cargo operators, BUT… that plane was meant to fly from OAK to China, unload and load, and then fly back. So very high utilization. That’s when new aircraft make sense for cargo ops.

And sometimes you do see some strange choices, like when some US carriers started flying their brand new 777s to South America where they sat all day. But it’s better than not using the aircraft at all, so they took the kit.

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turniphat@reddit

Here is a Fedex MD 11 on Flight Radar. https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n624fe

GheistHund374@reddit

Why do you carry lawnmowers in shitty old Silverados?

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27803@reddit

Boxes don’t care what they go in, older planes are cheap and the cargo lines are just going to fly the piss out of them, they also sit a lot , FedEx there most of their fleet sits 12+ hours a day so you aren’t going to get the utilization that a new leased aircraft needs to be viable

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WUT_productions@reddit

Passenger airlines log far more hours per day than cargo. Fuel efficiency is everything to passenger airlines and especially budget ones.

Cargo airlines only have to compete against cargo airlines.

Passenger airlines have to compete against other airlines + cargo airlines.

Because newer aren't converted to cargo version yet