Do I sound like a knob if I don't want to ask team members for help on broad, googleable things?
Posted by ohmytechdebt@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 77 comments
10+YEO here.
I noticed a member of the team using MagicMock for tests. It was new to be, and very cool, so I'm learning about it.
I mentioned I'm learning about it and our non-tech boss is a bit like "why don't you have {colleague} go over it on a call?".
Thing is, that's not how I learn.
I didn't learn anything at school or university because I don't learn by having things explained at me. Everything I know comes from time alone figuring stuff out. It's probably why I do this job.
So, yeah, do I sound like a cock (or just thick) if I say that?
craig552uk@reddit
Totally valid to say “that’s not how I learn”, but also asking your colleague “what did you find most difficult when learning this?” may help you learn-how-to-learn differently
solarpool@reddit
“I find that I learn best by getting hands on with it, and then asking questions on anything that I get stuck on - I’ll make sure to reach out to $colleague then” is perfectly fine to tell your manager
The-Flippening@reddit
{$colleague}
alxw@reddit
${colleague}
gnuban@reddit
%COLLEAUGE%
The-Flippening@reddit
Double quotes though, so would be PHP right?
yankfade@reddit
Could be Perl and would interpolate as written.
calabazasupremo@reddit
Both work the same in PHP lol
alxw@reddit
I was doing Terraform, just pointing out the inconsistency in languages.
The-Flippening@reddit
Fair play
nachohk@reddit
%(colleague)s
Moto-Ent@reddit
$”… {colleague} …”
Dyledion@reddit
No! Why would you execute your colleague!?
tach@reddit
"I find that I learn best by getting hands on with it, and then asking questions on anything that I get stuck on - I’ll ask Claude".
Basically, an LLM gives me good answers on googleable questions for common patterns/ops, does not tire of me asking, and i can go back to the conversation to make sure I asked all the points I could. I wouldn't trust it for more obscure stuff.
Mystic-Sapphire@reddit
From the way you’re communicating here, yes you do. Not everyone learns the way you do. The problem with Google is you can lost in the details and there isn’t a human to offer guidance from experience. This is why human teachers exist.
cougaranddark@reddit
He may be trying to help you create connections and relationships. Maybe consider learning what you can for a week or two, then hop on a huddle with your colleague to see if there's anything specific to your org that would close any gaps, and you make a new friend.
Just an idea.
UXyes@reddit
This. Career building is as much about building relationships (mentors, mentees, peers, partners, etc.) as it is about building hard skills. It's not for everyone, but that's the truth.
Temporary_Emu_5918@reddit
The best engineers I know definitely go out and do their own learning first, then reach out later to discuss with others (even if briefly) and it definitely builds connections. Colleagues may sometimes have good insight into a problem
TitusBjarni@reddit
Learning from someone else can only get you so far. If you learn straight from the documentation, you can learn more than they know.
zoddy-ngc2244@reddit
40yoe. My rule of thumb is:
Dive into research for 1 hour. If you make good progress, extend 1h at a time until you reach about half a day.
Then (or if you get stuck sooner) reach out for help from the expert, you will have better questions and a better understanding of the answers.
luna_from_space@reddit
Wow what's it like having 40 years of experience?
zippysausage@reddit
Then document and showcase it to the team to expose it to them and solidify it for you.
the_other_gantzm@reddit
Then the day comes when you are the “expert” and finding someone else to ask becomes very difficult. Google isn’t your friend anymore, Stack Overflow has given up the ghost, you’re on your own.
poeir@reddit
I feel like this is the true hazard of large-language models. People with limited experience can use LLMs to build basic or mid-level things—and it will work for the most part.
The problem is, when it falls through you kind of need the experience of having dealt with with the basic and mid-level problems. The 100-400 college level problems LLMs can handle fine. The 500+ level problems it does substantially less well on, and 500-level is no place to begin a learning journey.
It's arguable if LLMs can deal with novel problems, particularly filling in the entire context and making consistent judgment calls.
dystopiadattopia@reddit
I learn the exact same way as you.
But if the boss has the brilliant thought that I should have someone explain a piece of technology to me instead of learning to do it myself, I just say, "Yeah, that's a good idea, thanks."
I didn't say I would do it. I just said it was a good idea. But it gives the impression I'm actually going to do it, which gets the boss off my back.
If he follows up and asks how it went, I'll say oh, I just started playing with it on my own and I think I've got a good handle on it now. But it's good that Developer X is a good in-house resource for me to go to for help if I need it.
I'm not a big fan of passive aggressiveness, but sometimes it's the best way.
bigorangemachine@reddit
Honestly I been using chat-gpt.
It really helps remove the writers block and in so much it at least helps you get the ball rolling in-so-far to prove the AI is wrong.... and usually by that point its usually because I withheld information or explained something poorly.
But ya you can look like a Knob if you do it too much. At least to me.. I'm super patient and really nice but if you ask the same question too many times I will be like "this guy is an idiot". But getting a surface level understanding I never hold that against someone. Sometimes its just better to ask like "MagicMock did this.. is there something similar or a best practice the team uses" is always a good way to start the question. Sometimes communicating where you are starting and where you want to go can help get better answers.
Fidodo@reddit
Be careful because you'll annoy people if you spend hours figuring out something from scratch that could have been explained in 5 minutes.
calabazasupremo@reddit
It’s never just about learning the new tool, it’s the new tool and a new work codebase. There is a lot of cultural knowledge that doesn’t live in docs, it lives and dies with the programmers’ minds that build the software. Learning from or alongside another person is very high bandwidth in my experience.
Fidodo@reddit
Yeah, there's so much context that only exists in your co-workers minds, so it's not necessarily about having them teach you but giving context. If it doesn't feel productive then the questions are probably wrong.
BertRenolds@reddit
Just say you'll follow up with them if you have any issues.
It's them trying to be helpful by being unhelpful.
NoCardio_@reddit
“That’s not how I learn.” is a completely valid reason.
oblivion-2005@reddit
Which is something someone with +10 YOE should know.
NoCardio_@reddit
Years don’t always equate to wisdom.
notkraftman@reddit
You can do both right? You can have a quick sync up to get an overview, write some notes on areas you want to deep dive into, and then do your own research at your own pace.
vtmosaic@reddit
I'm in the same boat.
local_eclectic@reddit
This is literally the opposite of what most teams want! You're doing it right.
CyberneticLiadan@reddit
If you'd like to "meet your manager halfway" I would suggest that you message colleagues to let them know when you're looking into something and invite them to give you a heads up about possible pitfalls or to highlight particularly useful resources. I've been on the other end and had colleagues hit me up after spending a few hours getting stuck only to learn from me that they ran into a pitfall I already figured out. If I had even known they were starting to work on that thing I could have saved them hours.
Historical_Emu_3032@reddit
Manager always want you to do that, because that's what they do. Specially on technical subjects most of them are relaying something a engineer/dev told them without really understanding anything.
They somehow don't realize engineers understand all these complex things because they spend the time to go read up about them.
I would just say "yeah sure I book something in", and just not.
forbiddenknowledg3@reddit
These non-tech people need to fuck off generally speaking.
ReservoirBaws@reddit
Your reasoning is completely valid, but I’ve seen people have this exact conversation and come off as a dick, so it kind of depends on what exactly was said.
“I’d prefer to get my hands dirty on my own first, but if I get stuck, I’ll reach out, thanks!” - Manager is acknowledged, and your boundries are set.
“That’s dumb, I can do it on my own” - Dick
It’s a bit of an extreme example, but I have seen some extremely tone deaf SWEs in my career.
Empanatacion@reddit
Totally legit. The only thing I'd worry about is doing it in reverse. Nobody likes the guy whose first instinct is to deploy a "RTFM". If 30 seconds of your time can save 10 minutes of theirs, it was a good allocation of everyone's time.
Ordinary_Figure_5384@reddit
no you won’t.
I had a manager/skip. wicked smart. some of the best code I’ve ever seen. readable. never over architected etc.
this man genuinely learned from those shitty YouTube tutorials. for him learning was watching a video.
I needed hands on experience to learn anything.
jkingsbery@reddit
Two alternative approaches:
But in general, I agree with others that "here's how I effectively learn things, will reach out when I hit blockers" is a reasonable response.
software_engiweer@reddit
Your manager is just doing their job about connecting people. So and so is working on something similar, try to collaborate, etc. Just say that you’ll definitely reach out to them if you run into anything.
mothzilla@reddit
I usually just say "no thanks, I can figure it out, but if I need help I'll be sure to ask"
Say-whaaaaat@reddit
Remember that by "lone wolfing" it, you are potentially taking an opportunity away from a colleague in terms of their own personal development. It's not just about your own learning and up-skilling. You don't need to take them up on it every time, but it's not kind to turn it down every single time either.
kbielefe@reddit
Every programmer understands the hands on thing, just keep in mind that one-on-one tutoring is very different from viewing a lecture targeted at the median student in a group. It can help you narrow in more quickly on where you want to focus your alone time.
beefz0r@reddit
Just nod and ignore. Managers love words like handover and to feel important
DigmonsDrill@reddit
This stops working if the manager follows up.
It's easy enough to toss people a bone. Ask your colleague some question about it, enough that if your boss asks him he'll say you reached out.
beefz0r@reddit
Sounds like something a toxic micromanager would do. I just wouldn't commit to anything.
"Hmmm yeah that could be a good idea, maybe"
maigpy@reddit
just go over it with your colleague to tick a box half an hour and everybody is happy.
Nater5000@reddit
First, I'll say that I hate when this kind of thing happens for the exact reasons you've mentioned.
But, you may be misinterpreting what your boss is getting at. If you're learning something on your own, then yes: having somebody who probably only learned from Google try to teach you is inefficient and a waste of time. But, if you're learning how something works within the context of what you do at your company, then that's a different story. It's less "this person can teach you about this topic" and more "this person can show you a very relevant, real-life example of this thing and you two can share that knowledge, etc."
I'll add that your non-tech boss probably doesn't care about your personal enrichment and is more interested in leveraging these technical skills for the business, so it'd make sense that they'd try to build some sort of cohesion between you and the other person. It just might be the case that they don't really understand what that actually looks like on a technical level, so they phrase it in the best way they can.
Regardless, I wouldn't not actively dismiss what your boss is suggesting. They likely don't care about it like that. You should probably just humor them to a minimal degree and send a message to your colleague saying something like, "hey, I'm learning a bit about MagickMock, and the boss suggested I ask you about it. You have any tips?" That way you can say you brought it up with them and learned something (even if you didn't), and, perhaps, you might end up actually learning something or gaining some insight you weren't expecting.
Owlstorm@reddit
The more experienced I get, the more shame I feel when asking for help.
Probably just arrogance.
clearasatear@reddit
Pride, a deadly sin for good reason - you feel like you lose face asking
clearasatear@reddit
Arrogance would be thinking the solution you come up with will be better anyway and thus seeing no point in even asking the plebs
jenkinsleroi@reddit
Yes. Humor your boss and meet with your colleague. It's of no negative consequence to you, and it may help you out.
You have no idea how complex the tech might be, and if your manager is telling you to meet with someone, that's a signal that there's some deep knowledge to be shared.
Being broad and googleable is also not a guarantee that the info you find will be good or easy to learn. With MagicMock in particular, there's a lot of bad and misguided tutorials.
What happens is that some engineers want to create a social media presence, so they start creating blog posts and tutorials that are misinformed or only scratch the surface.
kondorb@reddit
You are a dream teammate.
eggbert74@reddit
Nope. I am the same way. Please just let me read the documentation. I will learn it faster and better than someone explaining it to me. That is a complete waste of both our time.
Unfair-Sleep-3022@reddit
Weird advice from your boss tbh. That's not how you scale up
marmot1101@reddit
I learn best when I get a quick explanation, spend some time in docs/poc, then come back and have a longer discussion with some context. I've explained this to people and most are entirely cool once they understand that I'll waste less of their time if I can have a minute before starting a pair.
Dankaati@reddit
That's completely fair. I'm the exact opposite, I learn much better by having it explained to me. You know yourself and act accordingly. That's the way.
ImYoric@reddit
Yeah, that's also not how I learn. One of the reasons for which I have difficulties in my current org, where they insist on explaining stuff instead of documenting it.
hachface@reddit
Just smile at your boss, say "Yeah that's a good idea, I'll do that next time" and then do things the way you've always done. In the future share less about your work process with your boss.
ambercrayon@reddit
Ask them to talk about it specifically in your environment and any challenges rather than doing a basic intro. I also would rather walk on Legos than listen to someone explain basics I could read in 5 minutes myself but surely there is some benefit in letting them share their experience
MoreRespectForQA@reddit
The reason I prefer going over stuff on a call with juniors is because 30% is generally stuff they can just google, 30% is stuff I can tell them in 4 seconds or they can spend half an hour figuring out and 30% is stuff you wont figure out at all unless i tell you.
In this case the googleable stuff would be how to use magicmock in general, 30% would be where to use it and 30% would be where not to use it.
ared38@reddit
What's your normal approach? If you read the MagicMock docs and then hit problems using it in your codebase, would you ask your teammate for help or try to figure it out alone?
xXxdethl0rdxXx@reddit
This is just your manager trying to be proactive and helpful. I like to research things myself too, so I’ll usually say “Thanks. I’d like to do a little research first so I can get my bearings and ask the best questions.”
There’s a delicate balance to strike here between valuing documentation and context, without dismissing a team member’s experience with it. Saying that you want to come to that conversation with smart questions, rather than “explain it like I’m 7 years old” is a good way to do that.
And if you think you’ve got it covered? Send that person your PR with your solution, with an offer to huddle up if there’s too much to discuss asynchronously. It shows humility but also gives the person an escape hatch to say “you know what, you actually nailed it, great work.”
ohmytechdebt@reddit (OP)
I felt the "lone wolf" thing, I definitely need to avoid that perception! It's definitely something I'm aware of, hence asking the question.
And yeah, I've had internal system things (not googleable) where I'm 100% let's jump on a call. Internal documentation is awful so it will always be my first port of call.
This is specifically where it's a public, widely used thing like a library/package.
Thanks
xXxdethl0rdxXx@reddit
A great way to turn your learning style into an asset is if you can actually bring something new from the docs into how your team has implemented it. It’s very common for a single dev to add a new library, and all future implementations on that team are essentially copy/pasted—warts and all. It’s the sign of a senior IC to challenge conventional wisdom on a team.
Anyway, good luck!
the300bros@reddit
Honestly, I thought 99% of devs would rather other people don’t need to be taught how to use tools unless the engineer wrote the tool & the other person already read the docs… or doing a group presentation.
temp1211241@reddit
Don’t you take that from him. Call manager a piece of shit and challenge him to a fight while peacocking and complaining how dump {colleague} is for encroaching on your territory.
It’s fine. Manager is suggesting you have a resource that might have insight into less obvious issues or advice that might speed up your learnings. Use it or don’t just don’t ignore it if you get blocked.
armahillo@reddit
In general, the coder etiquette i learned is:
RickJLeanPaw@reddit
There are ways of saying things that don’t aggravate others or reflect badly on yourself, but it seems like you’re on the road to discovery with them still.
Some things to take out of this;
You seem to have a boss that values learning on company time; as obvious as this may sound, that’s A Good Thing and not necessarily taken as read.
You seem to have a team that is willing to help you learn and grow: ditto.
Now; was there any explicit or implicit use for your new knowledge mentioned? Are you expected to help deliver something based on a new skill in a set time frame? That should help steer your learning method.
Finally; it’s absolutely fine to say “Great; it’s good to know that [Person] can help, but I find I learn better/faster/in greater depth if I have a go myself. If I get stuck after (time frame) I’ll work through where I am with the team”.
Then you all know what is going to happen, by when, what success looks like, and how you will act to address potential failure. Same thing as you said, but different.
MixedTrailMix@reddit
You can suggest he shares it out more generally to the team and then mention you learn best hands on, on your own.
DeterminedQuokka@reddit
You maybe get perceived poorly. There is a human thing where people want to be helpful so if you let them help you they feel more positively about you. I was told at one job to ask for help when I didn't need it for this reason to build relationships.
If you have teammates who take things personally they might perceive not asking them as you thinking they are stupid or something.
Honestly, if I was your teammate my annoyance would be directly correlated to how long things take you to google and how relevant your findings are. From my experience people who would rather google than ask for help take significantly longer to fix things, and have a tendency to fix them in a way that does not align with the codebase. I assume that if someone is telling you to ask for help one of these two things are happening unless you are just volunteering your googling schedule.
I think your best option is to google a little, then ask for some help, then google a little more, rinse and repeat.
GrizzRich@reddit
I would probably phrase it a bit more delicately, something like "I appreciate the offer but one thing I've learned about myself is that I learn best from reading and then experimenting, but if I get blocked I'll absolutely ask X for their support"
Baiticc@reddit
nah it’s valid, most engineers will understand I feel even if they aren’t the same. it’s a relatable feeling