Have you heard of organizations replacing computers with a cradled phone + monitor setup.

[-]

Robots_Never_Die@reddit

Onshape is a cloud based cad software. Just need a web browser to run it. Edison Motors engineers use it.

Not that I'm advocating for this move to cell phones lol but the cad issue isn't the reason why this is a bad idea.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

Thx -we use CAD in my place. I will check this one out.

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Yeah, I built a few startups that operated that way. They used Windows 365, so basically your phone just acts as a connector to your cloud desktop. It’s cool and trendy until the network goes down. Then management had to give the whole company days off, clients were angry because their urgent issues couldn’t be resolved, and so on.

It can make sense for a very small company starting out, but beyond that, it's usually better to have your own computing power.

To answer your question directly: since many vendors are pushing the virtual desktop agenda, you'll need solid proof that performance, latency, and availability are still as good, if not better, with this mobile-phone-only approach.

Spoiler: in most cases, they're not.

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netadmin_404@reddit

This is a pipe dream that’s totally unsupportable. Mobile devices are still way too underpowered, and don’t have the proper applications.

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jimicus@reddit

Unless, of course, all the real work is being done on a VDI system and the phone's just acting as effectively a dumb terminal.

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RuncibleBatleth@reddit

Phone OSes don't support external multimonitor. Now if he gave everyone a Steam deck that would work.

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Breitsol_Victor@reddit

Look at Samsung DEX. It does support external monitors. I jacked my phone into an hp dock to charge and had a desktop. I did not fully evaluate.

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DescriptionSenior675@reddit

Dex is going away iirc, microsoft is making a thing

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Empty-Sleep3746@reddit

incorrect, only the ability to use DEX from PC is being replaced by phonelink,
the ability to use the phones multitasking DEX isnt going anywhere

[-]

DescriptionSenior675@reddit

Pretttttttttttttttty sure dex isn't being developed anymore.

Interested to see a source saying it isn't.

[-]

phpnoworkwell@reddit

Dex On PC is different than Samsung Dex.

Samsung Dex is the ability for the phone to output to a screen as a desktop interface. This can be done with just a USB to HDMI cable.

Dex On PC is the ability to use a Windows app (Dex on PC) to push Samsung Dex on a PC. Think of it like you're using a VM on a computer, but that VM is your phone.

Dex on PC is going away in favor of Microsoft Phone Link, which can stream your apps to your PC.

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Empty-Sleep3746@reddit

u/DescriptionSenior675 \^

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Empty-Sleep3746@reddit

I'll flip this, show me the article that says the ability to use phone with TV/monitor is vanishing...

the ability to link to it from computer is gone, thats not what the OP is about..

Solved: Re: Samsung dex remobed - Samsung Community - 3260522

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Empty-Sleep3746@reddit

u/DescriptionSenior675 ???

[-]

Empty-Sleep3746@reddit

TLDR; we talking about 2 different things.....

[-]

Empty-Sleep3746@reddit

https://windowsforum.com/threads/samsung-dex-for-windows-discontinuation-and-alternatives-explained.347259/#:\~:text=Samsung%20will%20concentrate%20on%20improving%20DeX%E2%80%99s%20functionality%20with%20monitors%2C%20TVs%2C%20and%20other%20large%2Dscreen%20devices.

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RuncibleBatleth@reddit

I have been using Samsung DEX for over five years. It supports one single external display at 1080p60, which is why expensive AR glasses default to that for use with phones.

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tPRoC@reddit

The year of Linux desktop..?

[-]

Iamatworkgoaway@reddit

So seriously thinking of taking my whole fam to linux. Kids going to learn something, so just do Linux instead of MS.

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autogyrophilia@reddit

It's not a limitation of the OS, it's just that that most mobile GPUs do not support more than 2 displays because as you imagine, rarely used feature.

And if you really wanted that, why not use a tablet that is slightly less portable ?

[-]

RobbieRigel@reddit

I was surprised when I plugged the girlfriends Samsung into my HP dock and it kinda worked. (It charged and replicated her screen. Didn't test much of anything else)

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AmyDeferred@reddit

Keyboard, mouse, gamepads and Ethernet work too

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RuncibleBatleth@reddit

There's nothing proprietary about the external hardware, it's all displayport+USB over USB-c.

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Cyhawk@reddit

Android does. Many POS systems use it. You can either direct connect or cast.

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ExceptionEX@reddit

VDI access over 5g sounds like the makings of suicide machine

[-]

autogyrophilia@reddit

Not really, RDP is really good, it remains usable at 500ms of latency. At least on windows servers (that is, as opposed to using xRDP )

Ironically it's gotten worse over time as new frameworks like the web based electron that Microsoft loves so much don't use GDI and instead RDP needs to transport the rasterized graphics instead of the drawing calls.

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ExceptionEX@reddit

Unless the office is made of paper, getting quality 5g for multiple employees still sounds like a lot more misery than setting up a small wifi network and a reliable connection

[-]

autogyrophilia@reddit

While WiFi is indeed the correct choice for an office, our current technologies are more than apt to the task.

But having an option for mobile communication is not the worst idea. You can remote over LTE without issue, I do it all the time. Back when RDP was made it worked adequately through dial-up connections.

The issue is that mobile communications struggle with higher volumes of users, 5G was made to among other things expand the spectrum but we can see in the uptake that it has been a failure in most places. I'm sure that in cities like Tokio or Shenzhen they have proper 5G deployments out of necesity, but I don't think I've ever experienced 5G that wasn't just LTE+.

So in short, it's good for remote workers, but unwise for an office. I would also say that it's probably a superior solution to the end user reliying on their local ISP and WiFi.

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netadmin_404@reddit

Yeah that could work. Then you have to deal with webcam redirection, printer redirection, mobile network quality or latency issues. Anything 3D you need to buy GPU instances to run the apps or desktops.

I guess it’s possible, but what is the advantage over a laptop?

[-]

farva_06@reddit

Also VDI is more expensive than just getting desktop PCs for everyone.

[-]

ConsciousEquipment@reddit

Then you have to deal with webcam redirection, printer redirection, mobile network quality or latency issues. Anything 3D you need to buy GPU instances to run the apps or desktops.

You need thin clients for that, I have seen igel stuff etc with usb controllers designed to pull all that through to Citrix desktop with zero problems or needing to set it up etc or even better use LG Thin Client Monitors, they have all that shit built in so no usb garbage to deal with or drivers

I guess it’s possible, but what is the advantage over a laptop?

???? where do I even START?

The laptop is HERE. So if something goes wrong, you have to deal with it.

If some server from cloud assbang whatever across the globe goes down, that is somewhere ELSE, so it is not your problem. You open a ticket and according to your SLA it is fixed, done deal.

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NightFire45@reddit

We did this with Citrix and it worked really well using a Nvidia card. New management decided to just issue laptops after COVID.

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Slight-Blackberry813@reddit

Are you seriously implying this is a new issue? As in. There’s never been a successful VDI environment? It sounds like you’re new to this.

Minus the mobile aspect of this I’ve handled a lot of these exact estates of the years in large enterprises. Most of which are still around, lots of which aren’t but only because thr nexy chief incompetent officer roles up with his circus and Monkeys and tries to make a name.

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netadmin_404@reddit

No, I run VDI. I’m just stating that complexities that come with VDI over a cellular connection on a phone. We have great success with VDI.

I run VDI to Windows endpoints and we occasionally have issues with all of these items. It’s the nature of the beast. When you’re relying on the network for transport, you’re dependent on the quality of the connection.

Printer redirection is always a little flaky, webcam redirection uses a lot of bandwidth, these are all real challenges that are compounded by a phone only endpoint solution.

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rgsteele@reddit

Laptops are expensive, heavy, fragile, and a target for theft. And if a stolen laptop has sensitive data on it, that's a big deal. Sure, you can encrypt the disk, but that doesn't help you if the user did something dumb like write their password on a sticky note and tape it to the bottom of the machine.

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netadmin_404@reddit

That’s all true. A phone’s about the same price, and just as easy to steal. The laptop also has a full keyboard, and you don’t need to lug around extra ports.

If my staff is traveling, do they take an external monitor with them?

I’m not sure I see any advantages over the laptop. It’s a cool idea, remember Microsoft tried this a while back and failed.

Granted components are better, and phones are faster, but this wouldn’t save money. I still need to license a VDI instances, buy the phone, license all the software, and then train everyone how to use it. Overall you might break even with no real ROI.

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MikeExMachina@reddit

You’ll get lapdocks for them, it’s the return of the Motorola Atrix lol

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the_federation@reddit

I have a feeling they're going to make employees use their own phones. We had a discussion with execs recently about our VoIP, and some of them were saying why are we paying for phone lines when people can just use their personal cell phones. This seems to be in the same vein of thought.

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beaucoup_dinky_dau@reddit

yes the only advantage I can see over just buying them a laptop is that it also replaces the voip handset as well. I feel like a laptop with 5g would be the best option but the vendor can probably get the cost down to where replacing everything at once is palatable.

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rgsteele@reddit

A phone’s about the same price

If a company is currently buying every new employee a phone and a laptop, then just buying a phone is a net savings.

Regardless, I agree that going phone-only doesn't work for every scenario, and I can see it costing more than laptops, especially if you're using a cloud-hosted VDI solution like AVD. But at the same time, there are clearly some potential benefits.

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_sweepy@reddit

the ROI happens on paper immediately. over the next 4-5 years you lose everything you "saved", the guy in charge has gotten his bonus, moved on to another org, and it's someone else's problem.

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netadmin_404@reddit

Ahh, yes. Corporate America. 🇺🇸

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No-Boysenberry7835@reddit

If you are doing 100% cloud , money isnt a problem for you.

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OpenGrainAxehandle@reddit

I've tried it before, with an iPhone w/ bluetooth keyboard and mouse, and an HDMI adapter to a monitor. It was supposed to connect to an Amazon Workspace via their iOS client. But Amazon won't allow iPhones, only iPads, and they were solidly unconvinced to even let us try it. (Now they specify their client as iPad, instead of iOS.)

So it might have worked a little, but the BT keyboards and mice were painfully slow, so I doubt anything else would have been comfortable.

I can see it being useful with tablets, assuming that their processing power is greater than a phone, but you've still got a device that the employees will lose, break, or won't take out of the office.

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Cyhawk@reddit

My last job could have worked this way. Everything was web based and we used RDP for Sage access. 99.9% of the employees it would have been more than plenty with with a phone/chromebook with a mouse and keyboard. Only I would have been the 0.1% of people who needed an actual computer.

Not a terrible idea if you're 100% cloud. I could see it functioning until some MBA needed excel for some monstrosity that should have been a real database to begin with.

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TheGreatNico@reddit

I have used that exact setup in DCs hooked up to a crash cart while doing deployments. It was OK in a pinch, it did work, but it was not happy to do it, and I was on a flagship Samsung phone while doing it. It was nice not having to carry my laptop around and just had my phone and a pair of 3M Worktunes with me

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rileyg98@reddit

That is my guess - sounds awfully like the Microsoft cloud desktops they're spruiking.

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corruptboomerang@reddit

Nah, even when we've got fairly powerful 'ThinClients' the experience is pretty dogshit.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

He did not cover that, but it was only a 25 minute presentation, and it covered staffing changes, etc.

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p47guitars@reddit

bUt mY iPhOnE!

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radenthefridge@reddit

If they're just reading emails, typing docs, and chatting on teams or the like a phone would be fine. But I'd rather walk into the sea than try to move a whole business to that setup.

Some day I'd love to only need a phone with a dock to do everything. Still a decade off probably.

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NightFire45@reddit

Apparently no one here has heard of Citrix.

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Flying-T@reddit

Underpowered for what? If the application is browser- or cloud-based, the phone is just a thinclient

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Reasonable_Task_8246@reddit

Underpowered for the CAD application that OP mentioned for one?

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NightFire45@reddit

You can easily run CAD with Nvidia cards with Citrix.

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temotodochi@reddit

Depends on how they are utilized. A plugged in phone can boost a lot if needed. Also the capability difference between a $100 phone vs $1200 phone is huge. High end phones have enough oomph to run whatever you need. If it's just business software then it's not going to be the problem. You can play Alien: Isolation on them if you like.

If a company sells this as a system, then i expect them to have useful software replacements as well.

With a dock i don't consider this as a pipe dream at all.

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fuzzylogic_y2k@reddit

Actually most are plenty powerful enough to remote into a cloud desktop. Which must be what is being pitched here.

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MBILC@reddit

When you consider the majority of companies use Microsoft and many services are SaaS based anyways using a browser, it could actually work for some workers..

Certainly though, it would not work for ALL workers of a company...

Imagine asking accounting to use a smartphone to do massive excel work....or web / graphics designers..

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

He said the would have two monitors. I don't know if the phones were Android or iOS. I know the web experience for Excel is not the same as the Windows client.

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camgrosse@reddit

The people who push crap like the op is describing are the people who never did any real work to begin with

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mindedc@reddit

This is thin client vdi all over again....

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solitude042@reddit

No. I've tried Samsung Dex. Initially, there's a 'wow' factor, but it fades quickly. It's still an Android device, with phone-levels of performance. Sure, you could conference and take notes, browse the web, and do a few other 'productivity app' things based on whatever apps you have installed. However, without VDIs, you're pretty limited to lightweight tasks and sparse app-style multitasking. If my company implemented that setup, I'd quit. It's penny-wise, pound-foolish.

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Ssakaa@reddit

VDI with something like MS's AVD offering can do most of that pretty well, and works decent from a fairly underpowered endpoint, so if you don't rule out VDI, most of the performance issues can be managed. I don't think I ever did try actively using that from my phone when I had it available, but I have used standard RDP to some things on the same network though, and that worked great on the S9 I had at the time. The two real issues on the list are CAD (which worked frighteningly well for not being on GPU enabled instances in AVD, at least for academic needs, not huge models et. al. to go with it) and potentially wireless/cell network congestion. Maybe a bit with peripherals, though any bluetooth input device should work.

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ConfidentFuel885@reddit

Just to clarify - CAD in this instance would more likely mean “computer assisted dispatch,” which would refer to whatever dispatch software the public safety department is using. Also, if they were smart, they would use something like FirstNet which would give first priority on mobile networks.

However, if they were even smarter, they would realize this whole thing is a bad idea lol.

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elimeny@reddit

OP mentioned CAD in the same sentence where they mentioned county engineers and assessors, so while your point about computer aided dispatch is a really good one, and often missed, i do actually think they meant Microstation or AutoCad or similar.

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ConfidentFuel885@reddit

I saw the stuff about Axon and body cam footage and thought CAD and not CAD. But the county engineers makes sense that it would be CAD. If they went that route, then they wouldn’t have to worry about needing MDT for their MDTs though

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elimeny@reddit

One of the other commenters mentioned Chicago PD is using Samsung for their MDTs. We’re moving to a cloud CAD ourselves, so I do think it’s potentially viable.

As for autoCAD, or arcGIS, I don’t know. Maybe a smaller county who relies on the state to do all the underlying rendering abd drawing, and they just use browser tools and viewing?

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ConfidentFuel885@reddit

Sorry, I was making a stupid joke about all of the overlapping acronyms :)

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Ssakaa@reddit

Ah, gotta love abbreviations. Thanks for the correction!

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ConfidentFuel885@reddit

Nothing like that good ol’ IT alphabet soup.

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Ssakaa@reddit

Especially when youbget IT, radio/telecom, and government people in the same room.

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digitaltransmutation@reddit

If we aren't ruling out VDI then I would rather do thin clients but that's just me.

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GeneralUnlikely1622@reddit

All of our external contractors are on AVD, and we pitch Dex as an option for them to not have to carry a laptop around if they are frequently travelling between sites. So far for us it has been a great solution.

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solitude042@reddit

Fair enough... I've always been in a dev- and media-heavy org, where Dex just didn't cut it (we even tried surface tablets for a while, but most of those users also moved back to full laptops, or even desktops). However, I don't dispute that for light office/productivity use, Des can be effective. Good to hear the other side of the fence too - I tend to (wrongly) assume that there are always 'big' tools being used...

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Responsible-Slide-95@reddit

We used Dex quite extensively during Covid Lockdown.

For people to remote in to their desktop PCs at work.

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SAugsburger@reddit

This. Without VDIs the use cases are limited. I know a number of orgs that use VDIs for contractors. It lets them quickly spin up virtual workstations for people that might be there for a couple weeks where the overhead of shipping a laptop and getting it back later might not make as much sense, but haven't seen it used as much for long term staff.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

Thank you for sharing.

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ClamsAreStupid@reddit

Good. Fucking. Luck.

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MBILC@reddit

Sounds like the same kind of person who would think Chromebooks would work fine for enterprises...

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nsfwtatrash@reddit

I mean, I've seen them used for remote access in a vdi environment. Keeps everything inside for the most part. Otherwise they're shit.

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kuroimakina@reddit

This is the one time it’s actually viable, and it’s SUPER cool if you can pull it off. My roommate used to do his job this way during Covid, he’d bring a portable monitor, a power bank, and a foldable keyboard with touchpad, and he could just work from anywhere. He’d log in to his VDI, and just use it like a laptop when he had to do something important.

I need a FOSS Horizon equivalent to integrate with proxmox, it’s like my number 1 most wanted FOSS datacenter thing. I would totally install it on my home proxmox cluster, and just centralize all my hardware in one server rack. My home network is already 10Gb.

… sorry, got a bit off track there

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vtpilot@reddit

Nerd! Also would love a full on open source Horizon competitor. ;). Currently use SPICE to hit a few desktop in my Proxmox server but it's just not the same.

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Zeisen@reddit

I second this! I use Proxmox and Spice (vm-viewer) for all of my work/personal stuff. I've slowly started moving every physical interfacing thing into a thin-client or terminal setup. Even my gaming machine is now racked and I use Moonlight to play games remotely from my mini pc in the office or TV in the living room. I use to use SteamPlay and Parsec, but neither is as good as Moonlight+Sunshine.

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Kraeftluder@reddit

I've been extremely impressed with how well Guacamole performs but I do not have the faintest idea if and how it scales and if the use case even works for people.

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Cooleb09@reddit

The problem is guacamole has really poor IAM integration.

If they enabled an SSO -> short lived user cert -> user AD authed session flow like the other main players they would be worth deploying.

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Kraeftluder@reddit

The problem is guacamole has really poor IAM integration.

Yeah I'm using a trick for that. I have LDAP integration enabled and then use a very expensive piece of enterprise software in front of it (what used to be Novell access manager) and inject credentials into the authentication form.

I haven't looked at the native OIDC stuff to be honest.

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jesuiscanard@reddit

It is possible to use Entra ID with guacamole to gain access to your session. Problem i had for it was it having to run on outdated JAVA.

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Sinister_Nibs@reddit

That assumes VDI, which is accessing the servers and network with the tools installed somewhere (not a true cloud environment)

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alwayssonnyhere@reddit

You haven’t meet my users. Or my techs. Or my help desk. And don’t get me started on the applications group. Chromebooks would be a god send. But you lost me at dual monitors. Every one wants them but no one can manage them. But yeah, cellphone workstations are not ready for prime time.

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Kahless_2K@reddit

Dual monitors are the only thing he said that I think makes sense.

They aren't necessary for data entry terminals, but they are a must have for any sort of knowledge worker that actually works with the data.

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Arudinne@reddit

We actually had someone quit right after they finished orientation because they didn't want to use two monitors.

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Coffee4AllFoodGroups@reddit

Didn't want to use two monitors??

I come from the era of 80x24 green screen text, 640x480 CGA color graphics...
and I can't work anymore without at least two monitors.
I currently have three - the laptop's 3456x2234 plus two externals.

You get used to it so quickly you can't go back.

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DomainFurry@reddit

It is funny to think about back in 2013, I worked at CVS and they just started rolling out duel screens. I thought it was a dumb idea. What can I do with more than one screen.. Turned out quite a bit. I think maybe a month later I got a second one for my home setup.

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Arudinne@reddit

Didn't want to use two monitors??

That is correct. They asked IT to take one away but we declined because management wants everyone in that position to have two monitors and recommended they speak to their supervisor.

We had a termination ticket for them within an hour or two.

I can't work anymore without at least two monitors.

I currently have three - the laptop's 3456x2234 plus two externals.

You get used to it so quickly you can't go back.

Same. I can barely function on just one screen. Two is manageable, Three is great and recently I've been working with 4 (Inverted T shape) and I might have finally hit my limit. I use the top monitor just for Slack/Teams.

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SeigneurMoutonDeux@reddit

What do you mean by "manage" dual monitors?

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THXFLS@reddit

Well for starters they need to know how to move and resize windows.

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SeigneurMoutonDeux@reddit

Because you don't do that on a single monitor. /s

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THXFLS@reddit

Not if you don't know how, you don't. You just use the programs where they open.

Introduce a second monitor and a program might open on the wrong one. Then you've got a problem.

Wish I wasn't speaking from experience.

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SeigneurMoutonDeux@reddit

My point is the problem of resizing and moving windows exists regardless of how many monitors you have. If you can manage windows on a single monitor, you can manage windows on multiple monitors

Now having the attention span and memory to remember which monitor has what information is another story altogether and I've come across users that were lacing enough in that department that a single window caused them problems.

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TheLightingGuy@reddit

Like how at my old job people would want a Mac, but then all of our internal apps only run Windows so we'd give them a RDWeb server. I always found that hillarious, with the exception of the people that actually use Adobe apps for their day to day work.

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MakingItElsewhere@reddit

"Everything's online anyways!!!"

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Affectionate-Cat-975@reddit

Cell netwurx are 100% reliable, just like AI

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Roanoketrees@reddit

With 0 purcent lehtuncy!!!!

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Affectionate-Cat-975@reddit

Ed Zachary

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admlshake@reddit

"Hey, why can't I access this mapped drive anymore?! Well yes I turned down the project to move it to cloud storage, but I don't see what that would have to do with this! I need this mapped drive, on my chromebook, while I'm on vacation, and with out using the VPN. MAKE. IT. HAPPEN. With out spending any money."

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MakingItElsewhere@reddit

I'm pretty sure this is how DropBox got invented.

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uptimefordays@reddit

Ok but in all honesty, if it's not always online in today's world you've either got insanely specific needs or are doing something comically wrong.

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Impressive_Change593@reddit

or at doing CAD

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GardenWeasel67@reddit

Government (OP's occupation) has insanely specific needs

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uptimefordays@reddit

Don't I know it lol.

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DrockByte@reddit

Everything's computer!!

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Zercomnexus@reddit

gif

Tell me everything about COMpuTars!

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catonic@reddit

The Network is the Computer! /s

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Joshopolis@reddit

fark me I've heard that so much. I want to slap them every time

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czenst@reddit

For a lot of jobs yes, for all jobs not.

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Head_Helicopter_8243@reddit

Or netbooks.

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Redhawks83@reddit

I have a netbook in a drawer somewhere. I must have gotten it 17 or so years ago. I've mostly forgotten about it ... every so often though, I'll stumble across it.

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Forgotthebloodypassw@reddit

That takes me back, had a very nice little Lenovo one, very handy for travel.

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ScorpiusAustralis@reddit

I've seen Chromebooks work in Enterprise, the thing is like everything their a tool that needs to be used correctly.

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anna_lynn_fection@reddit

Exactly. If they'll do what you need, they're fine. If you try to make them do things they won't do easily/natively, or for heavy workloads, you're going to have a bad time.

It's like saying that calculators have no place in any business. Sometimes, less sophisticated works best.

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ReputationNo8889@reddit

For many Office Employees they can actually be fine. But if you need to do something not in the Webbrowser you are ool.

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noideabutitwillbeok@reddit

Or a rural county "CIO" who started off mowing lawns, but knew enough about 'puters.

I was an an event within the past 12 months where the guest CIO for some county talked a lot of stuff. Yet they used free gmail for everything, and some staff used their own PCs. One person (county manager) retired and took her PC, one of the few they purchased, with her - and it had all of her day to day documentation on it. They didn't bat an eye. Yeah dude, I'm taking his advise. /s

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DheeradjS@reddit

Depending on the needs, they absolutely are.

Just very specific usecases.

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e_karma@reddit

Well, as a person working in a 350000 +enterprise chrome book plus google workspace seems to be working fine ...as long as they get rid of some legacy apps used by shadow IT.

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MBILC@reddit

And every single person is using one?

They can be used, but they do not work for all users and roles....unless you have some serious VDI infra to handle heavy workloads if needed.

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e_karma@reddit

Most apps are saas web based so I guess it's okay ..but excel to Google worksheet legacy migration is what has been a nightmare

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wrosecrans@reddit

If it came down to a choice between Chromebooks and OP's docked telephones, Chromebooks do sound fine for enterprises.

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smelly1sam@reddit

Seen some places do it. Knowbe4 I think does that.

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Radiowarsaw@reddit

This me chuckle

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corruptboomerang@reddit

To be fair, for what they're designed for, a Chromebook is great!

But they're not a full laptop replacement.

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dracotrapnet@reddit

Yea, good luck. I have had Dex capable phones. I've mostly only ever used it to test projectors for presentations when I just didn't want to bring a laptop around with me. Most of the apps are unaware of Dex mode and display as tiny strips in the center of the landscape screen.

[-]

ClamsAreStupid@reddit

People keep bringing up Dex? What the fex is dex?

[-]

dracotrapnet@reddit

Samsung has a function on the higher end phones and tablets to run applications in a windowed mode. They can also output the desktop on an external screen over usbc to hdmi adapters or docks. Can also display the desktop wirelessly.

It is quirky.

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chrisfromit85@reddit

You've never used Samsung Dex mode, I guess.

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mrjamjams66@reddit

Dex is amazing, honestly, I agree.

Obviously I don't know what the setup is for this place but it's so hard for me to fathom a government entity of any kind having absolutely everything able to run on cell phones.

[-]

chrisfromit85@reddit

Also agreed. I think this setup is going to become increasingly common for people who do general admin or office work where most applications are cloud based, but it won't be a substitute for existing application workflows or if you need extra power.

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mrjamjams66@reddit

Well OP already pointed out that they're using CAD. So that's strike one.

Now, I'm making assumptions, as the details aren't clear but they also said users will get a phone with a cradle, two monitors etc.

For starters, even Dex only supports one monitor as far as I know. How are they expecting to make use of Monitor 2?

This also leads me to assume that they'll have a physical office still. What about security cameras? They also said they're "getting rid of the network."

Sure, the body cam footage from officers will be sent straight to the cloud (idk how those work, but just rolling with it tbh), but what about the office security cameras?

What you're gonna have each camera in the building on their own cellular connection uploading straight to the cloud? That hardly seems sustainable from a cost perspective. Not to mention reliability that the footage all makes it there.

Again, Making assumptions, but a government entity has probably got some kind of compliance to meet regarding security camera footage and I suspect that this Alone still requires an office network to meet compliance.

Any decent camera as far as I know would require Ethernet.

Or maybe it's all closed loop video connections to a DVR and then the DVR can upload to cloud or something?

Idk there's a lot of room for problems if we look at it long enough. Maybe they don't have a physical office but I sure as heck suspect those police officers with the body cam footage can't just take people they arrest home.

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Darkace911@reddit

What about printing? The real estate tax system? Court System files?

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mrjamjams66@reddit

All good points.

I'm kinda hopeful OP updates us on how this goes.

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SpaceGuy1968@reddit

Yeh we don't really need that pesky network anymore

Someone sold this guy a bill of goods

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beaucoup_dinky_dau@reddit

Honestly in some aspects it makes sense for an area with low bandwidth needs, why pay business costs when you can get consumer cost data plans. Enterprise setups just get continually worked by the vendors and then you also have to worry about the cybersecurity ramifications but if everything is 5g and all business is in the cloud way lower footprint to maintain. I am not saying to would make sense everywhere but I can see some instances where it makes sense to get out of large contracts and replace it with small consumer based devices and then spend the money on cloud portals. Not saying those cloud portals won't get more expensive but at least you are not spending money for that and the local infrastructure.

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SpaceGuy1968@reddit

I can agree with certain situations for sure

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beaucoup_dinky_dau@reddit

yeah and not to say there isn't a greedy vendor with self interest blowing smoke up someone's ass either

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pdp10@reddit

The mobile providers have been actively trying for at least a decade to sell top-decision makers on giving up their in-house WLAN investments and going with carrier "5G" WWAN subscriptions instead. The institutions I saw targeted were universities, and you can go back through the uni infra mailing lists to see mentions of deans getting the hard sell.

The CIO of a county government seems very plausible to be targeted for a top-down decision of this type.

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802-420@reddit

The only way I could see this working would be if they were using the device to connect to a virtual desktop. It does not seem like that is the plan though.

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Bulky-Stick2704@reddit

It has to be.. Virtual PC (Azure) from MS .. you can vpn in to it from your phone, and display on larger monitors.

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suicidebyjohnny5@reddit

This is the type of future being planned for us. Eventually, it will be a small device we wear or implant.

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BasicallyFake@reddit

i mean, there isnt anything inherently wrong with that.

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e_karma@reddit

Or a virtual display glasses with 5g integrated

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mangeek@reddit

I've done this, using some older tech. VDI with a MS Remote Desktop Client on an Android. As long as your app is subscribed to the feed, you can launch desktops sessions in the cloud or on-prem that have the tools you need. I even had my Google Pixel hooked up to my Dell dock and monitor. It sort of worked; it was functional. I think it honestly could be viable, but it needs a whole lot of consideration, and it's not appropriate for high-latency networks. Also, it's much better with thin client boxes and broadband connections strapped to the back of monitors rather than phones using cellular.

[-]

StatlerSalad@reddit

We did that during COVID - small government office with no WFH infrastructure and a week to go fully remote on a budget of £300 per employee. Couldn't rely on the emoloyees' home networks.

Bought everyone a smartphone, dock, and set up a VPN connection to their desk PC in the office. One tech per day cycled to the office to babysit a room full of PCs.

It worked, but I wouldn't recommend it.

[-]

Turbojelly@reddit

Back to the old system we're everyone remote.accesses a server with a kvm type device. Great if you have a really powerful backend and strong network, crap if you cheap out on it. It proved to be cheaper to give all users computers than do this.

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SufficientCheck9874@reddit

Hey, it's the Chief Incompetence Officer deciding these things so maybe he can do it

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Empty_Clip_21519@reddit

Sounds about right, the CIO might know about data structures and storage but maybe he needs to tap his CTO to actually find out the hardware requirements to access his precious data otherwise he sounds like he's wearing his ass for a hat.

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pppjurac@reddit

Pointy Haired Boss or is it Mordac, the preventer of information services ?

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Aos77s@reddit

You say that now but it’s obviously not off the table for the future. A cellphone is just a low power laptop that connects to cell towers. The processor in phones are getting huge advancements that its entirely possible to have a majority of basic office pcs be replaced with company phones that dock to a monitor mouse and keyboard when needed.

He speaks of someone having to use basically impossible but im sure the asus rog phone 9 could handle cad work easily

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ResisterImpedant@reddit

Every few years they try this bullshit again and it utterly fails.

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GladObject2962@reddit

If i was a sys admin here id be planning my exit. This plan is going to be executed as a royal shitshow

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Long_Start_3142@reddit

Be dope if it were a thing tho

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SquizzOC@reddit

HA that was my thought as well when I read the post. No fucking way.

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Nick85er@reddit

Yup

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Pudubat@reddit

I didn't know Chief Imbecile Officer was now a c-suite level job

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vivekkhera@reddit

Sound like someone who failed up a lot and is being sold to by some really good sales people.

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SAugsburger@reddit

Somehow I suspect this guy takes a lot of vendor paid dinners, golf trips, etc. and that their recommendations coincidentally match whoever lavishes them with the best kickbacks. Working for government I wonder whether this guy might be violating rules against gifts and nobody has discovered it yet.

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Darkace911@reddit

Sounds like bribery to me and bribing local officials to win contracts is a federal crime.

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SAugsburger@reddit

It could be. Government conflict of interest rules tend to pretty strictly limit gifts below what would realistically be considered bribery charges.

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p47guitars@reddit

i'd say there's some kick back fuckery or the big wig is on the board of the other company...

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DrockByte@reddit

I just got off the phone with a genius man named Dwight from Dunder-Mifflin and I've decided from now on we will no longer use electricity. We can save thousands of dollars every month by exclusively user pencil and paper. And what do we even need electricity for anyway?

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No-Rip-9573@reddit

Yep some golf buddies are getting a fat deal.

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hgst-ultrastar@reddit

Unfortunately true for most public enterprises, everywhere. OR careerists who purchase and push implementation of some big project just to springboard their next move and leave with no regard to the follow up.

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corruptboomerang@reddit

This sounds too much like my boss! 😂🤣

Please don't talk to him... I've just finished explaining to him why we can't just keep old devices that are EOL. 😅

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shortfinal@reddit

Salesperson turned CIO trying to load his boys up.

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Ok_Bad9885@reddit

This sounds like a nightmare. Just from the standpoint of when the SHTF during an emergency like a weather event and nothing can be accessed via public WAN. CAD and 911 going down sounds like a bad idea.

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Darkace911@reddit

Because that shit just happened in Asheville and they had to helicopter in StarLink terminals because all of the fiber lines washed away and ATT decided we didn't need Point to Point Microwave towers anymore.

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CompetitionOk1582@reddit

Seems pretty innovative. If a user is mostly using Gmail, Google apps, and a saas town management application, an iPhone / iPad setup could meet almost all needs.

And interesting that he is going all the way. No local WiFi, just use the money got a 5G/6G unlimited phone plan.

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mikeyflyguy@reddit

Their cellular account manager is already out planning where to spend his next bonus check

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CompetitionOk1582@reddit

They all probably have cellular plans already. So this might just allow them to be reimbursed by work. Another potential win win.

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mikeyflyguy@reddit

Cell phones and SIM cards installed in laptops are two different things.

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CompetitionOk1582@reddit

Understood. As it says, no laptops. They will be driving everything off of their iPhones. It sounds like no internal network either. So their iPhone 5G for everything.

That probably wouldn't work in a home setting. As streaming would get you capped or throttled. But office content is usually very transactional and small.

I'd guess they would have some form of office WiFi at the least.

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smallest_table@reddit

He's not getting rid of computers. He's planning on getting computers that cannot be serviced resulting in a higher TCO.

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NefariousnessOne720@reddit

Thin clients using a celluar network for email and other applications?? Not even a small machine acting as a DC in a closet somewhere? That monthly cloud bill is going to grow pretty quickly. Nothing cheap about Azure or AWS, especially if engineers are saving CAD drawings to the cloud.

County CIO? Does this mean someone's brother-in-law or nephew that only has a 10th or 11th grade education?

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1a2b3c4d_1a2b3c4d@reddit

Yes. If you google "bmw plant replaces wifi with 5g" you will be able to get multiple articles about BMW, and other companies, moving away from local infrastructure and moving to an all 100% wireless solution.

5G is what they used, but future xG versions will probably be better suited to handle it all.

Its actually a big deal, as, if you can move all your servers\services to the cloud, and move all your personal devices to the cell network, you don't need any legacy infrastructure int he office anymore. Things like RJ45 Jacks, Ethernet, Cat 6 cables, Switches, Wifi, WAPs, WACs, Firewalls, Telecom circuits like MPLS, etc, all become unnecessary. All you need is a device will a SIM. You can truly work from anywhere.

Its probably the future in 20 years.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

What you said is in line with what I heard. Thank you for sharing. Their ERP is on prem today but they are moving to a cloud-ERP. Do you think what they are doing will be similar to the Blockbuster to Netflix type of disruption?

My company is different: We are 99.5% cloud. We have some legacy quickbooks that we have moved from but still have the QB for records and such.

We have Ubiquiti equipment for cameras, WAPs, door access, etc. We use PoE for that, so we have a network. Regardless, we are going to use computers in my org.

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vsysio@reddit

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Edit: AHAHAHAHAHAHAA

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qkdsm7@reddit

\~18 years ago as a tech for a school district, that was about to build a new HS. Local business owner that was a member of the school board's tech committee didn't know why we had all these data drops to computer labs, classrooms, etc in our plans. "Our office is all wireless and it's fine"

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SAL10000@reddit

HAHAHAHAH

I remember dex for Samsung awhile back, and while yes i could access android apps, it was a far cry from using real applications or doing mutiple things at once.

It was just the same as having a 40" android phone in front of my face. That was the only difference.

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kerrwashere@reddit

You might think this is stupid but for enterprise this actually sounds like a direction to move towards

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IT_is_not_all_I_am@reddit

In 2017ish I interviewed at a Visiting Nurse organization that was very distributed and had no significant datacenter. There was a small office network that supported like 4 people who worked permanently there (director, HR/payroll, office manager, IT), but all the 100ish nurses had laptops with cellular cards and portable printers. They accessed a web-based Electronic Medical Record and Office 365. They occasionally returned to the office for meetings and trainings, where they just used their cellular data, but did hook up to monitors and such via docks in a hoteling setup.

They needed more screen real estate while in a patient's home than a cell phone would afford, but I could definitely see a large tablet or some other device like that working for them with their use case.

I did not get the job, thankfully. It was a solo gig, but much more helpdesky than a real sysadmin position. I was kind of desperate to get out of my job at the time, but it was not what I was looking for, and I think the interviewers could tell.

So anyway, I wouldn't reject it out of hand just because it is counter to the way things have traditionally been done, but just be sure that all the use cases are considered and workarounds or exceptions have an established process to be addressed.

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Holmesless@reddit

Idk CAD and cloud only sounds super expensive

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SnooGiraffes292@reddit

Depends on how the needs are. And how the main workforce is. If you have contractors that mostly see computers as a black magic box,but are comfortable with phones then yes, ,if you can work out the kinks and present a good business case. I was thinking of it but ultimately decided against it

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hevvypiano@reddit

Lol

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mini4x@reddit

I might try DEX out, my local PC mostly just runs email, and a browser, all my work is done remoted into Citrix or Devolutions.

Even for CAD users we run then in Citrix too.

The 5g part will be your demise. but a good WiFi should b efine.

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Generico300@reddit

Lol...that's the stupidest thing I've heard in a while.

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The_Establishmnt@reddit

This is a horrible idea. Whoever sold him on it should be banned from the building.

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say592@reddit

I mean, I could plan a solution like this, but it would be the dumbest thing and I wouldnt stake my career or reputation on it. Bodycam footage with Axiom is pretty typical. Do phones with docks to Windows 365 or Azure Virtual Desktop. Host the rest of your infrastructure in the cloud or with SaaS stuff. You could do it, its just a terrible idea, which is why no one does it.

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FinancialDaikon1660@reddit

It all goes in cycles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Computer

"This has all happened before, and it will all happen again."

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Backwoods_tech@reddit

Hes gettkng a Big Fat Kickback, bc org will be spending a LOT more for less

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Fun-Difficulty-798@reddit

AWS has a method for doing AutoCAD hosted in their environment and then using one of their cloud terminals for the user. They have a white paper, but I never got it from them.

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Empty_Clip_21519@reddit

I'm curious where this CIO is getting the idea that dual monitors are possible with docked smartphones? I used Samsung DeX years ago and although I thought it was a cool idea, I was merely just making my Galaxy S8+ an Android desktop computer not fully capable of running x86 anything at the time, let alone full versions of business software. I stopped using Samsung devices a while ago and just Google searched it now and native dual monitors is not possible with DeX so there would be a lot of tinkering to make that a reality. Now the software lines are blurred a little bit and a mobile desktop hybrid setup is more feasible for productivity but I'm lost about the part where he's taking down the internal network, does that mean Wi-Fi too? Because most 5G bands only do a little better than LTE cutting through building materials so even if you get decent 5G signal indoors, it's not as sufficient as outdoor 5G with little to no obstruction. When you say 'vendor driven' are you saying an implementation team is driving this idea home or is some smartphone/cradle device manufacturer selling this brand new idea?

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Environmental-Ad8402@reddit

I'm guessing you're taking about Axon as the vendor.

Axon are the makers of the Taser, among other products. They focus heavily on law enforcement needs including body cams, and obviously offer storage capabilities for a fleet of body cams.

I'm assuming what happened is your exec had a sitdown with the salespeople at Axon and was sold hook, line, and sinker. They over promised they can move everything to mobile only, ditch on prem for the cloud, and on paper it looks cheaper because they don't need to invest in infrastructure. Only to realize 2 years after implementation, they're spending in 1 year what they used to spend in 5 for a shittier service. If I'm correct, the next move for this exec is to cut IT and use an MSP to "save" even more.

My advice, step 1) learn the sales tactics of Axon, step 2) network with this exec, step 3) form your own company and become that MSP. Reap the benefits of their stupidity.

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wwwertdf@reddit

Oh man, Axon crossed my mind when I read his post but I moved on lol, then I read your comment and was like huh, maybe it is Axon.

Now I am stuck thinking is there really anyone else who could pitch a line of products for LEO and Goverment...

Motorola maybe?

[-]

dartdoug@reddit

We work with body camera systems from AXON, Motorola and a couple of other providers.

AXON wins hands down on simplicity and reliability. Motorola's products are OK, but if you have a problem the support person you get might know less about the product than you do.

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music2myear@reddit

That's our experience as well. Motorola also has no idea how to write applications using any sort of modern or secure standards. Their apps require all sorts of carve-outs, including "full admin on the network" and other stupidity like that, and we're constantly dialing them back, reining them in, asking them to fix stuff that is broken due to their incompetence. Frankly, moving out to Axon has been a win all around compared to Motorola and Coban. We're still stuck with Motorola for radio stuff though, and even just that part is horrific.

[-]

dartdoug@reddit

Just this morning I was looped into a discussion between one of our PD accounts and Axon,. The PD is currently running Motorola but their 5 year contract is coming due. The Lt who oversees their technology said "Sometimes I feel like I work for Motorola. Whenever there is a problem they want me to try this or try that. When nothing works they will look at the system and discover that it was there problem all along."

They are getting ready to make the switch.

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SAugsburger@reddit

Motorola is a long time vendor in the LE space. They have provided CAD/RMS for some agencies I worked for back in the day.

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music2myear@reddit

We're moving into Axon for many of our systems (yes, LE) and it's miles beyond in both capability and support what we had previously (another major vendor in the space). I assume it'll slow down and get bad in the future, but right now the technical staff, the line staff, the outside contacts, all love Axon.

All that said, this CIO is an idiot still fresh off the idiot farm, wet behind the ears AND lacking sense.

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ExceptionEX@reddit

Axon is the devil, the shit they are pulling now with cutting off all free API access, and trying to charge literally thousands per interface is going to end up breaking the budgets of lots of small municipal courts.

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BalmyGarlic@reddit

They run their company like a cult, it's terrifying.

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Iamatworkgoaway@reddit

Have you joined the Tased club yet, my whole family joined last year. Tasers are 100% safe and effective, if used properly, by trained professionals. Child acting out dont fight them, taze them.

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Frothyleet@reddit

We've started using them on employees who spend too long in the breakroom. They pay for themselves super quickly!

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GuessSecure4640@reddit

I browsed their site out of curiosity and I don't see anything about mobile devices in relation to OP's description. I'm curious if anyone else can find it...I just see it mentioning their mobile app

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Ekyou@reddit

The beauty is, this is government, so after the next election this guy will get canned and replaced with someone who will boast they can save the org so much money by bringing everything back on prem.

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Ur-Best-Friend@reddit

Only to realize 2 years after implementation, they're spending in 1 year what they used to spend in 5 for a shittier service.

And 3 years after that, that when the vendor doubles the licencing fees, you don't really have any option besides swallowing the increase, or moving back to the previous system - and losing your job in the process.

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cats_are_the_devil@reddit

That got money hungry in a hurry...

Year 5: Move into our datacenter. We will host all your "cloud".

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SAugsburger@reddit

Offer them a private cloud. Just go work for a colo down the street managing their services.

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theducks@reddit

Sales targets are quarterly, of course it’s in a hurry

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HappierShibe@reddit

LOL
Step 1 study satan.
Step 2/3 transform into satan.

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CatProgrammer@reddit

Even if most stuff can be done in the cloud, how do they handle latency for fast applications?

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Hewlett-PackHard@reddit

Last org I saw go from on-prem to cloud first hand could have rebuilt their on-prem datacenter everything 6-9 months for the cost.

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Nik_Tesla@reddit

Axon is like, borderline a cult, and they sounds like they got this CIO to drink their cool-aid.

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fauxfaust78@reddit

Hahaha pretty much what happened to a not for profit organisation i worked for until mid last year. Internal IT team ousted but there were other contributing factors. Now I work for the msp that supports them. Lol

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sec_goat@reddit

I just went through the same. Non profit decided after 3-4 years they needed some one internal and hired me back. . .Win / Win I guess!

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ghjm@reddit

I think this might be the way things will go eventually, like in twenty years maybe phone CPUs and GPUs will be so fast that they can easily do everything you need to do and they'd just no reason to have a desktop computer. But in 2025? Nah.

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infered5@reddit

When I worked at the furniture store, we looked into this for our sales team since we migrated the only desktop-only software over to web based. The idea was since each salesperson had a phone anyway, we just add docks and they use Samsung Dex.

Decided not to for many reasons and it was the right call. Even if everything can be done in a phone browser, they'll pile up tabs, forget their phone somewhere, maybe the phone is at 5% battery and charging in the backrooms? Not worth the hassle, we kept the floor desktops.

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Fit_Indication_2529@reddit

This sounds fake,

Overgeneralized claims (“getting rid of the network”).
Buzzword salad (cloud, 5G, 6G, bodycams, cradle setups).
Vague references to unnamed vendors and technology.
Lack of any names, dates, or confirming details.
Ending with a soft “I couldn’t ask questions” creates a plausible escape from scrutiny.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

It was a 1/2 hour zoom presentation to our IT Strategy group. It started a few min late. If you don't believe me, fine, but there is a bit of implicit trust in the groups I belong to. Like I said in another reply, I would not want someone putting my name out on reddit without a chance to defend myself, especially given some of the harsh comments here. What is the CIO's name or the government body going to give someone anyway?

He clearly said, "getting rid of the network and data center." Data center I can understand. Network I could not. All I was doing is asking if anyone heard of this sort of thing.

If I was afraid of scrutiny, this subreddit is the last place I would post.

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Fit_Indication_2529@reddit

My bad, I just can't imagine that anyone would be that dumb. Not you but the presenter.

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northrupthebandgeek@reddit

Exhibit A for why CIO stands for Career Is Over.

Seriously, what's with CIOs consistently having single-digit numbers of braincells to rub together when it comes to IT?

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

I see that, a lot. IT used to be CIOs were technical but then the pendulum swung to 'A CIO is a non-technical business person that leads IT due having empathy, etc." I think it is starting to swing back a bit, or I hope

Many no longer have, or never had, " a love for the craft."

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Aim_Fire_Ready@reddit

Tell me you’re getting a kickback without telling me you’re getting a kickback.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

I have zero to do with this except being a taxpayer in the jurisdiction that is doing this. I am genuinely asking questions. Look at my posting history- you can infer my job by what I post about.

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brocktice@reddit

I took this to be about the guy proposing the changes to “the vendor”

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Aim_Fire_Ready@reddit

Yes, I was referring to the guy doing the presentation, not OP.

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pcronin@reddit

tbh I have been wishing there was a proper "dockable phone" since the first smartphones started showing up. The Motorola Atrix was close, but just like Samsung's DEX, it wasn't "computery enough". Apple doesn't want to eat its own lunch by unlocking full desktop os on the ipads (or even the next gen phones), but again, it is *close* to being useful. Perhaps closer as phone/pad os apps tend to be more polished imo.

AFAIK there are no "dockable phones" that do multi monitors, so not sure where he's getting that from. Most I have seen is when you can use the phone screen and an external at the same time.

Deciding that 90% of the workload can be done on simple devices, with cloud/vdi, isn't necessarily a bad thing. As long as they know they still need to provide beefy enough machines for the other 10%, there will probably be grumbles and pains from end users at first. Lets face it, we don't all need as much power as we think we do for most tasks.

That said, I don't think relying on cell network is a good idea. Even if it is all wifi (which makes me sick), having the reliable and managed private network is a must.

[-]

Roanoketrees@reddit

I've seen people try to run only the front end of a grocery store on 5G. It doesnt work. The promised bandwidth is not there in most places except major metropolitan areas and the towers are massively over burdened in most places. If you had your own tower, maybe. If 5000 other people are all fighting for bandwidth on a tower, get in line.

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L3veLUP@reddit

Samsung Dex and the new Pixel desktop experience is a thing. However I doubt very much that would work for anyone that does anything CAD, Accounting (depending on security) or development would work.

[-]

Bodycount9@reddit

I wanted to do something with Samsung Dex with monitors but Dex doesn't support dual monitors and I need two monitors for what I do.

I was going to use Dex to RDP into a server that has all the tools I need to work with. Not use Dex to do my work because Dex doesn't support a lot of stuff.

[-]

saysjuan@reddit

Actually not a bad idea. You move the heavy processing apps to a Cloud VDI like Azure Virtual Desktop. This allows you to purchase resources where you need it instead of putting GPU capabilities everywhere. The mobile devices are easier to support as well and require less client based software licenses.

That’s a progressive CIO that you have I’d suggest asking where you can upskill to support more cloud resources rather than fight the deployment.

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purged363506@reddit

Found the salesman

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saysjuan@reddit

No, Fortune 100 Solutions Architect. What they’re selling is about a generation or two ahead of what we planned. I’m wondering if they using off the shelf hardware like the latest iPhone or something proprietary and small form factor.

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purged363506@reddit

Solutions Architect....

Usually.....salesman.

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saysjuan@reddit

I will confess to have read How to sell anything to anyone and how to close every sale by Joe Girardi. But that was only during my IT consulting days.

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mapbits@reddit

Agree, I'd really like to see the details of the solution too.

We briefly considered W365 Link, but didn't find it compelling enough to pilot because it's still another device per user. A phone based solution, particularly if it worked with AVD and dual screens, would likely tip the balance.

I'd love to go this direction for a reduction in DLP complexity if nothing else...

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No-Boysenberry7835@reddit

Nice idea, just spend 100k on cloud per month instead of buying 100 pc.

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saysjuan@reddit

When the user logs off or disconnects you don’t pay for the resource usage. You also don’t have 10,000 workstations to patch to fix a 0-Day exploit as you’re updating the master image. Our cost is under $20/user per month unless it’s dedicated or needs a GPU. There’s zero cost in moving their data to a new machine as everything is stored in their one drive, sharepoint or cloud native app. Upgrading SAP clients for example is a one person task vs an Army or support people rushing over a weekend and providing fall out support Monday morning for major upgrades.

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No-Boysenberry7835@reddit

I mean if you have people doing cad all day moving them to cloud would cost a lot. Under $20/user with something like over 100 hours per user ?

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saysjuan@reddit

CAD users require a GPU and our blended rate is closer to $37/month unless they need a dedicated system with full use of the GPU. They have fractional GPU sku’s which we find is good enough. Usually the biggest issue is network latency between the Desktop Endpoint and the file share/server. If they’re all in the same Azure region the app is responsive many times less than 10ms. That’s far better than we can provide between the office and the data center in the same general area.

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MakingItElsewhere@reddit

You, uh, looking for a raise there, bud?

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saysjuan@reddit

No I’m a Solution Architect for a Fortune 100 and we offer something similar, but not on a phone platform. For example the iPhone 15 supports USB C so you can connect a monitor, keyboard and mouse but I’ve never heard of a dual monitor setup. When I travel I’d rather just carry my phone than my laptop so I’m interested in the solution they went with.

Sounds like an interesting project for sure.

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Applejuice_Drunk@reddit

We replaced some computers with phones and docks. Our sales team is 100% phones, and our HR team is moving to phones now. It has had challenges, but the ability for people to take their device with, and not have clunky shit to carry along, has gone well.

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fuzzylogic_y2k@reddit

I agree, it's doable, might need ultra wide monitors though. It's basically the same as other orgs running stripped down thin clients. The biggest issue is going to be multimedia. Yeah you can window out of the vdi these must be connected to but if the offering allowed for a nice overlay that would make it easier.

Not doing vdi for most employees would be very progressive.

Architect for a fortune 150 private company.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

Thank you for the reply. I did not hear VDI mentioned, but it does not mean it was excluded.

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saysjuan@reddit

When you find out more post a follow up. This seems pretty bleeding edge and I’d be interested in hearing how it goes. Sure it’s not going to be all rainbows and butterflies, but even on-prem and hybrid cloud migrations have their hiccups as well.

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VTOLfreak@reddit

Sure but you'll still need a proper network and thin clients in the office to connect to the VDI environment.

A client of mine uses AVD for everyone and their office network is a zero-trust design. Doesn't matter if you work from home or at the office, on their machines or your own laptop.

Just don't expect it to be cheaper in the long run unless you run the VDI locally. AVD is basically renting a computer.

Management falls into the trap of capex VS opex. Sure, cloud is cheaper now. How about we extrapolate the costs for the next 5 years or so.

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saysjuan@reddit

No doubt, but if they plan to outsource everything it’s probably baked into the cost of the service. That’s what we did when I worked for a MSP and we were an Azure CSP reseller. Significantly discounted Azure overhead and it was baked into the contract where the customer never saw the actual bill.

Of course it will be almost impossible to migrate away from to another vendor or in-house so it was quite lucrative with 5-10 year contract commitments up front.

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BasicallyFake@reddit

we have areas of the business that are like this with tablets but across the board, no.

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AKSoapy29@reddit

If only Microsoft continued to develop Continuum...

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VanderPatch@reddit

Besides what has been said by others - data-security and privacy will take a HUGE hit with that.
Especially with cloud - depending on where you're from and where the cloud-hoster is from different laws count.

Performance will be crippled, a lot of software will not work, freaking printers will be a pain in the arse.
My gosh what a mess.

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CallMeNoodler@reddit

This has all the makings of an r/shittysysadmin post.

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BigBobFro@reddit

Theyre going to learn the hard way at some point in the near future that ground base ISPs have redundancy and higher through put.

Dollars to doughnuts,.. they roll that monumentally bad idea out,.. somewhere in the first few weeks, they over load the local cell towers and the cell provider mandates they install another cell hub in their now scraped local network.

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jcash5everr@reddit

Axiom is nice. They use a cradle system as a base. The cams upload as soon as they are inside the cradle. They offer versions where they can upload on wifi too but I don't remember much about it.

In the other, this sounds terrible. Still have to use the resources somewhere. If cloud your paying through the nose for that type of compute power. They probably don't know

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malikto44@reddit

The X station revisited. Every 5-10, someone adds secret sauce to the VT-100 terminal or a graphical station, and tries to hawk it for high prices.

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Erok2112@reddit

Start looking up real cloud costs. They are staggering and one of the primary drivers behind bringing I.T. back in house.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

We are 99.5% cloud in my org. For us, given 'our situation', it makes sense. We all SaaS for the most part. We have more remote offices than IT people.

One area of cloud that gets you is logging costs. Those are never estimated or accounted for correctly.

I had dinner with someone who ran a big dating site. For him, on-prem was far better.

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penone_nyc@reddit

kickback

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henryguy@reddit

Everything's someone else's computer!

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Gushazan@reddit

Don't let that geeky sysadmin ask any questions. The moment he opens his mouth our illegal backdoor deal is done!

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ranhalt@reddit

2011 called

https://www.cnet.com/reviews/motorola-laptop-dock-review/

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jmnugent@reddit

I haven't read down through all the replies here, but I'm guessing mine will be similar.

While this kind of setup is technically possible (I did it in a small city gov a few years ago.. but only for around 50 devices using Samsung DEX) ... the capability is still quite limited. It's not really a "ready for prime time" sort of computing solution. Doing this also doesn't mean you'll "have 0 problems" or "0 things to support". It just means a different set of problems and a different set of things to support. (for example a few years ago when I did it,. it would only work with a very specific combination of adapters and Monitors. )

Plugging an iPad or Android phone into a Docking cradle out to a normal Keyboard and Mouse and Monitor.. is a neat "parlor trick",. and something I might do at home "just because".. but it's not a professional solution.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

This is not my organization. I won't have regular feedback on their journey, but am curious how it would work.

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rdldr1@reddit

Just wait, he'll soon be your former CIO.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

I don't work here- I was attending a presentation by a third-party.

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techbloggingfool_com@reddit

Samsung Dex maybe?

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duke78@reddit

As far as I know, Dex doesn't support two monitors.

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phpnoworkwell@reddit

It does, just depends on the resolution

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Breitsol_Victor@reddit

It does. I have a Note 20 that I jacked into an hp dock. 2 screens, mouse and keyboard. I did not evaluate any software.

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RBeck@reddit

People are kinda amazed at this when they bring you a busted phone. Here it is with a kbd/mouse/monitor, check your messages and make sure everything is backed up somewhere.

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guinnessis@reddit

Chicago PD runs Samsung Dex as their in squad computers.

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DSPGerm@reddit

That makes sense given their long, well-documented history of incompetence.

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BSquadLeader@reddit

This approach I think has legs with limited function end users like this - more compute heavy users obvs can't make that switch.

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Dangerous_Question15@reddit

Could be interesting, but challenging for sure. CAD apps are resource-intensive apps. Would they work all in the cloud? Maybe. Why not get thin clients with lots of local RAM?

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anon-stocks@reddit

It works on a local network for remotely if sub 5 ms latency. Other than that, no way.

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Tall-Geologist-1452@reddit

I can totally see the idea and would probably be all for it personally, but the tech just isn’t there yet. Maybe in 20 years, sure...

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phoenix823@reddit

As in so many situations, I have a 1 word response to this: WHY?

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DaemosDaen@reddit

I've had to deal with this, fortunately my bosses listen to me because I will perform a cost analysis (in conjunction with information provided by Maintenance with infrastructure costs (aka a total cost analysis) We normally save money with our on-prem equipment after year 2 of 5 (the minimum lifespan of on-prem equipment)

Our Tazer/Axiom/Evidence.com (who ever tf they are now) rep hates me with a passion. The chief is not exactly friends with me either. Our County Admin and my boss/director like me tho, so I'm good. I'm a counterpoint to my bosses' "Ooooo Shiny" attitude. I've not heard of the head of IT called a CIO in government, normally they are a Director.

I would start brushing up on your resume, this will blow up in the CIO's face and you will be the one to take the fall.

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Sinister_Nibs@reddit

I would wager that there are regulatory requirements that things like body cam/ car cam/ etc be maintained in house for a period of time.

There is no way in hell that this could be done. There are too many pieces and specialized tools used in government. And counties normally have to do certain things for municipalities (disbursement of funds, create baseline budgetary requirements). That will not play well with this his ideas.

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PurpleFlerpy@reddit

That sounds absolutely fucking stupid. Professional opinion.

Realistically I have seen a work force use iPads as their primary devices, paired with a BT mouse and a Windows RDP environment. If the bigwig wants portability like that, this may be a more realistic approach, though I'd say CAD will need to be on dedicated devices since it stinks through RDP.

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PsyOmega@reddit

5g

"Guys i've hit the data cap at 22gb and its only the 11th of the month. hope you don't mind the 64kb/s restricted data speeds until the 1st."

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davix500@reddit

This won't go well. I have been a part of about a half dozen of these schemes, I did IT consulting for small to mid size companies. They will be way underpowered, the use of wifi to do everything will cause bandwidth problems on the APs because he won't by enough. Cloud costs will sky rocket because workers will required a VM to do serious wok. Things like that will cause this thing to be a cluster fuck but entertaining to watch.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

Entertaining for you, sure. I am a taxpayer in this county, so I will be paying for your entertainment : )

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Visible_Witness_884@reddit

I guess it'd work if they had VDI environment, but he says he gets rid of the datacenter too - so is that also the hosted one?

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

internal data center is what I inferred

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timallen445@reddit

I want to know what phone carrier was pushing this. If Sprint was still around I would say it was them.

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3Cogs@reddit

If they tried that at my place, I would fill in a DSE (Display Screen Equipment) form which would state that I cannot find a comfortable position to use the setup for a whole shift. That would probably be the end of it.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

I have heard of stuff like that. My first job was in a union place and one very quickly learns the "union grievance" process

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3Cogs@reddit

Our DSE process is mandated by our employer as part of their duty of care to their employees.

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Kahless_2K@reddit

Your CIO is an idiot.

This was many people's idea of "the future is now" 15 years ago. It hasn't happened for good reasons.

Our phones are amazing, but they don't fit this use case for all but the simplest users.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

This was a presentation I attended. I do not work for that organization.

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admlshake@reddit

I've only known one guy that did this. He was the owner of an MSP we did work with years ago. Was constantly bragging about how awesome it was, how outdated everyone was for not jumping onboard immediately. He finally forced all his employees to move over to it. 6 months later they abandoned the project because it failed in ways poets could write about for the next century.

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The_Wkwied@reddit

I remember in 2013-14 when the 'dockable phones' tried to catch on.

Tried.

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wasdthemighty@reddit

We did try to have phones connected to USBc docks with Dex and a Citrix windows enviroment.

It worked as an idea but phones aren't meant to stay connected 24/7 so we quickly went back to thinclients.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

thx for the comment. I thought about this overnight and there probably is some VDI thing that was not mentioned.

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Sensitive-Ebb-6406@reddit

Update your LinkedIn lol

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Phreakiture@reddit

I have seen several senior execs and others using Keynote on their iPhones to give presentations. They're not, however, so clueless as to try to implement what you've described.

Is what you've described theoretically possible? Probably. We may get there someday in the next decade or two. Today is probably too early, though.

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jeremydallen@reddit

Reboot the cloud! Nothing's working!

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Emmortalise@reddit

For some roles this is probably a good idea. If you are just repeating basic tasks then why use a whole laptop. Desktop program development has almost entirely stopped and most programs are just reskinned browsers getting data from the cloud.

If you only need your staff to use 3 programs and nothing else then this is a perfect fit.

If you want to do anything beyond that, then the guy fell for it hook, line and sinker.

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MixIndividual4336@reddit

Whole setup feels like it was pitched in a conference room without talking to a single end user. Curious how long it lasts once real work hits.

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NetworkingWolf@reddit

"getting rid of the data center and the network" If they go pure cloud I could see this but the network even if pure cloud will still need to be there.

"phone with a cradle and two monitors/keyboard/mouse" Microsoft tried this idea a long time back with their Microsoft phones. It was a really cool idea but only for people in sales and customer support where all they do is online items.

At the end of the day, this is a lofty goal to reach but is not practicle. You would need to go far into the Microsoft items and honestly people get annoyed when they have to use the online products of Microsoft. I dont think its feesable for all but for some users, who are doing light weight tasking, I could see this being useful.

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thisguy_right_here@reddit

Knew a guy saying this was on the way 10 years ago.

Haven't heard anything else until the post.

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Candid_Ad5642@reddit

I have fiddled a bit with phone cradles on my own

For the majority of users, this should actually work just fine, especially in any kind of thin client environment

This will not work for the heavy users though

Not sure about trying to run an office building off 5G though, it would probably overwhelm the local callular towers, not to mention the unavoidable bad coverage corners that you can do nothing about

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redtollman@reddit

This was the original Windows Mobile intent, obviously I’d never grew legs (but it did seem to work well).

If everything is browser based, it could work, but I imagine you would have hundreds of exception requests for all kinds of reasons. I tried this recently with an iPhone, experience was horrible - who can survive with only one instance of Word running?

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CptBronzeBalls@reddit

The only way this could maybe work is some kind of virtual desktop (VDI) solution. I wouldn’t want to implement or support it.

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Key_Jello_1428@reddit

This is where we are all headed if Microsoft has their way. No more pc hardware. You only need a phone or tablet to log into your Microsoft account and get your virtual desktop. Oh by the way, you pay every month for the specific virtual pc you need. Want two processors, cha ching, add more memory, cha ching, need more storage, cha ching. The profits, I mean options are endless.

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snakebite75@reddit

You bash MS, but take a look at the Chromebook. Google has been pushing the cloud only approach since they got into the computer market.

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StConvolute@reddit

I think there is a use-case for docked phones, but it's not going to cover most roles/jobs in a company.

Perfect for sales staff on the go.

Terrible for a power user doing graphics, video etc...

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SAugsburger@reddit

This. There is a niche of users where it could work well for. It won't work well for every user though.

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WRB2@reddit

Makes me happy I live in a very poor county.

Dumb, dangerous, risk prone beyond belief.

Not a surprise, we have lots of really dumb people who work their way up to CIO.

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saagtand@reddit

Perhaps it's Samsung DeX?
It's not far from using a Chromebook, which is equaly insane for enterprise use.

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Shepsdaddy@reddit

I'd bet he has a collection of toenail clippings and nostril hair in his pocket.

A truly delusional @$$-hat.

Somebody needs to keep him away from sharp objects.

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AlexisFR@reddit

You folks need to get his ass fired and blacklisted before he does irreparable damage to your local community and county.

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Mysterious_Scholar79@reddit

just wait till they need to get 500 TB of GIS data out of the cloud. The cost model they had established when they purchased this nonsense will be gone and they will realize they are now in a hostage situation. Cloud is great for some stuff but if you give it to them it is no longer yours and you will have to buy your data back. don't be fooled.

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scootscoot@reddit

I think it's an ok idea for all the zoomers that dont know how to use anything other than a phone/tablet. Absolutely dont go 100% on this idea.

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fdeyso@reddit

Microshit cloudPC or however they advertised as more cost effective only costing 2x compared to our laptops at the same spec over the same time period and still requires hardware, i haven’t heard about it for a long time so hopefully they decided not to buy into it.

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linux_n00by@reddit

the guy probably have a Samsung Dex

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blu3ysdad@reddit

I wouldn't be surprised if Axon is trying to sell this whole thing in, they've been trying to expand from tasers and require that they support the network their equipment is plugged into. They charge insane prices. This will cost your government far more than with any other system. Make sure this whole thing is audited and the CIO isn't getting kickbacks.

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BWMerlin@reddit

This would probably work for us and is something I would be keen to try.

We don't have anything on prem and we only use web browser and Office so the Android version would probably be enough for most of our work.

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Moontoya@reddit

Around 1997 I got a job by suggesting mobiles phones would become powerful enough to dock In a cradle and 'be' the computer brain

This was Nokia 9000 communicators era, ipaqs (yes ipaq, from Compaq), blackberries, newtons etc.

I envisioned your phone would be the brain , as many mainframe with vt100/101 terminals were common

It didnt come about then, it's more possible now, see apple creating a MacBook that runs iOS

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saysjuan@reddit

My iPhone 15 has more computing power than what they used to land on the moon. It may not have happened as fast as they originally predicted, but it did happen.

I could see how it could be used as a VDI terminal assuming there was sufficient network bandwidth and minimal latency. 20-25 years ago we had environments where a dumb terminal was used to login to citrix farms replacing managed laptops and desktops in banks & financial institutions so it’s not that far of a stretch with reliable 5G and wifi in office.

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RedditIsReallyRigged@reddit

They didn't land on the moon, BTW. 😭

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saysjuan@reddit

gif

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Moontoya@reddit

A Casio or Swatch digital watch has as much if not more compute power than the Apollo "computers".

I mean the copper data bus loom they had, not the humans crunching the numbers who were titled computers because they computed things

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Critical-Variety9479@reddit

I tried this around 2008 or 2009, I believe it was a Sony phone. We were deploying Quest vWorkspace on HyperV. VDI experience was fine on thin clients, on the phone, not so much. Phones have come a long way since.

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Stonewalled9999@reddit

My iPhone 16 pro has more computing power and more space than my company issued laptop (that I seldom use I just Citrix in from my desktop at home with a larger monitor

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machstem@reddit

OP...

It's odd that you mention this

We were recently approached by a vendor that claimed they could provide a LTE/5G solution, using our own towers (circa MPLS days) that would inherently cover both IoT and managed devices

When pressed on a few network concerns, it was obvious they were trying their best to convince us we didn't require our infrastructure, my dumdum boss being convinced as well.

Odd that I see another version (seemingly) of this

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Geminii27@reddit

Yeah, he's an idiot. Some vendor is giving him kickbacks or has talked him into making stupid calls.

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wrt-wtf-@reddit

That is a recipe for vendor lock-in and later price escalation.

It’s absolutely feasible - without a doubt. The question I then have is around the right to disconnect? Are the rights of the employees being maintained?

We saw a very large company be one of the first to switch to IPv6, lead by a vendor to that conclusion. There was a lot of money given out to that exercise, devices weren’t as capable as claimed (welcome to being a vendor experiment) and the cost of transitioning their legacy software was prohibitive.

To this day, they run a massive ipv4 footprint with a limited IPv6 capability in-spite of a significant amount of money being put on the table.

Having worked vendor space and in large enterprise, carrier, and govt - this is a fairly common sight. A CEO with be sold on a sales dream and the vendor will offer coverage and support. At the end of the day, that money and support does not cover lost productivity and burned up goodwill that is critical to customer retention and customer growth through recommendations.

You can burn through money very fast and mobile connectivity will burn you if you are in a high density transit area.

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zatset@reddit

This is disaster waiting to happen. There are absolutely no guarantees that the mobile network will be stable. Especially if the mobile network in the area suffers from chronic congestion. Local cable network with fiber WAN is a must.

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AHrubik@reddit

I trialed something like this (iPads) at my last company. Still had network and data center though. It worked well for anyone whose job is all online apps or sites and you can account for the sites being 100% Safari compatible. Works better if iOS apps are involved too.

You have to start this kind of setup from the ground up and trial everything people might be doing because there is little room to adjust things if something doesn't work correctly. In one case we had to setup a remote desktop situation back to a data center VM because they ended up needing an app that wasn't iOS or web.

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FarmboyJustice@reddit

This smells like r/linkedinlunatics

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IJustLoggedInToSay-@reddit

OMG thank you for this.

Although LinkedIn is mostly AI engagement-farming at this point.

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centizen24@reddit

LinkedIn is the frontier of the dead internet theory. People writing comments using AI on posts also written by AI. All to impress other people getting summaries given to them from AI.

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catonic@reddit

Yawn. Sounds like The LapDock is back again.

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The-Purple-Church@reddit

JFC

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Skullpuck@reddit

Sounds like the CIO got swindled by a vendor's presentation. Now he wants to be the one who is responsible for moving your organization into his "future".

This will end badly for everyone.

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CoffeeOrDestroy@reddit

Someone is getting kickbacks

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crankysysadmin@reddit

holy crap. this is one of those CIOs everyone should stay away from

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Calm_Run93@reddit

What you have found there, is an idiot.

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Sk1rm1sh@reddit

I've seen pipe dreams like this before and it goes one of two ways:

1. Never implemented.

Someone might be tasked with hiring someone to put together a team to form a committee who's job it is to decide which consulting firm should manage the transition to running on hopes and dreams instead of traditional hardware.

If it ever gets to the consulting firm, they'll happily take the org's money and spend as much time as the org is happy to let them, looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Often referred to as coming Soon™️for several years until everyone who heard about it now works somewhere else and it's forgotten about.

Until then, every now & then at lunch you'll hear:

Hey weren't we supposed to get a phone with a cradle and two monitors/keyboard/mouse?

Soon™️

2. Implemented and ignored.

Everyone has to manually apply for an "exemption" to standard policy in order to get a laptop / desktop running Windows.

New hires get paid to sit around twiddling their thumbs for two weeks while the approval process is escalated up the chain o' command, signed off, passed back down the chain and forwarded to the team who provisions hardware + licenses.

They still have have a phone with a cradle and two monitors/keyboard/mouse that doesn't get used because enterprise software doesn't run on hopes and dreams.

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HappierShibe@reddit

Later he described how all employees will have a phone with a cradle and two monitors/keyboard/mouse, and will all be 5G/[6G -future I guess]. They would be 100% cloud. It seems to be somewhat 'vendor driven' as a few time he mentioned 'the vendor' without naming as such.

OH no... a vendor saw this man coming a mile away.
Do not let him within 200ft of Sam Altman.

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NorthernVenomFang@reddit

Lol... Just wait until they calculate that bill in 2 to 5 years.

Cellular carrier charges, overage costs on 5g/6g carrier, phone costs, replacements of lost phones (going to happen), cloud server costs for engineers (CAD will not run on those), costs to convert apps to cloud ready, cloud costs for VMs that can not be converts to a cloud app, IT support costs, MDM costs to manage every cell phone, printer config (if no LAN, how do you print), various hardware issues (there is going to be hardware that needs a PC)...

This is a "Watch him, that is what you do not do" scenarios.

2 to 3 years their IT budget is going to explode.

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RBeck@reddit

That's probably the future at some point. Microsoft tried to get us there with the investment in the Windows phone, but it just didn't take.

I bet Apple tries it soon now that the PCs are off x86. Their air laptops have been getting tabletier, less ports etc.

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dlongwing@reddit

Wow, that guy's an idiot.

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matthegr@reddit

Today, I learned I could be a CIO.

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jbhack@reddit

So he is going from not having a local data center to having someone’s data center in the cloud. I hope their stuff isn’t critical because when there is an internet outage someone will be fired.

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Dave_A480@reddit

The only way I can see 'that' working is if they are using VDI & the phone is just doing the remote connection to the 'real' VM (in the cloud or on prem)....

Basically using the phone to run Remote-Desktop or VMWare-client, and keeping all their Windows stuff on the cloud-desktop instances.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

VDI was not mentioned but this was not a complete breakdown of every component, it was mentioning moving to the phone/cradle thing and no longer doing 3 year refreshes on laptops as not all laptops 'needed' replacement after 3 years.

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Dave_A480@reddit

If I was going to set up a platform where people used phones (BYOD or issued) as 'work computers', VDI would be the way to go.

Phone OSes just don't have the same level of capability for doing 'work things' as Windows.

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Hewlett-PackHard@reddit

Make the CIO use a Samsung Dex on cellular for a month.

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jpStormcrow@reddit

All bullshit, but Axon is a godsend. Storage retention is ridiculous these days with all these police agencies walking around with 4k cameras. You get a few police on scene for a length of time you're easily going to hit a TB.

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DisastrousAd2335@reddit

In the late 90's I was at an insurance company, we ran IBM EVERYTHING! Token Ring (later converted to Ethernet, but even those were Thomas Conrad NICs), S/390, AS/400s, DASD towers, IBM Shark (Tarpin) Storage array, PC 704 servers and Desktops.

The VP of Technology was buddies with an IBM reseller. So there is that. BUT, 'No one ever got fired for buying IBM' as the slogan goes.

One day the sales rep pulls into the parking lot in a brand new truck, pulling a brand new trailer with a brand new 30'ft fishing boat on it. This was a vendor 'gift' for the VP.

All this is to say, watch the parking lot and you may figure out how all this crap got sold to the descision maker!

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Decent_Cheesecake362@reddit

Run. Run as far away as you can.

He doesn’t know the difference between 5G (cellular) and 6G (WiFi in addition to 2.4 and 5ghz)

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

I didn't pick up on wireless as he said it was all cellular. It seems 6G cellular is future, but wifi6 is now, I think you are right in that the technologies are getting mixed up. He could have misspoke too.

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Decent_Cheesecake362@reddit

Well foot in mouth. 6G is planned for cellular. Early stages of standardization so I might be wrong.

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sixothree@reddit

The Verge wants to talk to you. No really they probably do want to hear how this goes.

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hosalabad@reddit

That CIO is corrupt, and will have pocketed enough to survive the charges afterwards.

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canadian_sysadmin@reddit

It's worth noting that this concept has actually been around for about 15 years (both Blackberry and Samsung have touted it before, long ago, in various iterations). Obviously it hasn't really taken off.

It's ambitious for sure, though will be tricky to pull off with a lot of workers. If someone today can't work entirely off an iPad, adding a monitor or two likely isn't going to solve that.

Yes it's technically possible, but it's going to be a degraded experience for a good chunk of workers. VDI/Cloud PCs are also typically an expensive venture, designed for security and not necessarily convenience.

In do think it's feasible for certain workers, but will be very tough for others.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

I was trying to grasp for our place. We have some 'field' users who have a iPhone and a cellular iPad. I had the team try using a travel monitor to make a phone into an iPad and they came back with 4 immediate challenges, so we abandoned it. Tether length and power were two if I recall.

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DivineDart@reddit

This reminds me of a situation at a previous company. A bunch of our engineers used CAD software, and management decided to get them dual monitors that could daisy chain and act as docking stations. The problem was the docking stations only pushed 60 watts via USB-C. I pointed out to management that it wouldn't be enough to simultaneously charge the laptops and run CAD, but they pushed ahead anyway. Surprise, surprise—the laptops wouldn't charge. We were just a satellite office, but we had most of the engineers. As soon as the main headquarters engineers had the same issue, they reneged on the daisy-chain monitors. Go figure. That shit pissed me off, and I don't work there anymore. I wonder if there's a correlation.

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giovannimyles@reddit

I tried this with Samsung years ago. The Galaxy Note had a dock. I used it to connect to a virtual desktop. The performance was abysmal, lol. Theoretically you could pick up your phone and go home and reconnect to your existing session all while on 5G or Wifi. In theory this sounds great. The phone just didn't cut it. Now if you want thin clients at work and chromebooks on the go that could work if you have a robust connection to AVD or a Citrix environment. Ultimately laptops usually win out because you can hold static files and access should connectivity to the cloud have issues or slowness.

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newboofgootin@reddit

Holy shit it really is a phone with a cradle?? I thought he was confused and meant some sort of thin client.

Absolutely fucking insane.

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giovannimyles@reddit

Look up the Samsung Dex Station. We tried those with sales people who traveled a lot. It didn’t pan out as expected, lol

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ccosby@reddit

I tired it with a windows 10 phone and their docked mode. Actually think if they had gone with the intel atom chip that was used in some phones at the time it could have been interesting. Wouldn't have wanted to run much off the phone but to connect to vdi or some web apps maybe.

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bangsmackpow@reddit

I work from home almost 99% of the time now doing MSP, systems, network, OSINT, etc. I use a Samsung S21+ as my docked "computer" and RDP to one of my VM's depending on what I'm working on that day. I personally love it. However, I DO NOT WANT TO SUPPORT THIS....for anyone other than myself currently. The future may be different.

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VulturE@reddit

I had this years ago with a few older Asus devices.

When it works well, it's great. But lots of stuff didn't work as expected with it

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Likely_a_bot@reddit

You can tell the guy that just returned from some conference.

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TheRealLambardi@reddit

You can certainly do this for portions of workforces, especially if you’re good and driving towards cloud enabled for your services and holding IT and procurement accountable to make sure that happens correctly.

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fencepost_ajm@reddit

Wasn't Microsoft claiming to work in this direction back when they actually had a mobile phone OS?

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Crazy-Rest5026@reddit

100% cloud get expensive real fucking quick. On prem data storage has its benefits. Cloud you have 0 control. As a hybrid architecture is more cost effective and beneficial. Cloud is way overpriced imo.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

We are 99.5% cloud only. For us, cloud makes sense. Many of our team are remote, we are Entra only, we have no IT full time in any of our offices, and more offices than we have IT team. We are mostly SaaS, mostly. We use Intune/AutoPilot - drop ship from Dell.

AND

There are costs with cloud as you said. We actively manage our costs vs what would be on-prem. We don't need on prem licensing, servers, SDWAN, etc. We choose no redundant power/Internet.

We had a company managing hosting of an app and I told the business team it would cost me 4x more to do it myself. When the VMware thing happened, that company got out of the app hosting business, so now we host it. The app is in Azure as it needs to run on Terminal Server for users in the mid-west. We host it in CentralUS, and use Entra Private Access to get to it from company devices. (no public IP). IT works out of our homes.

Our machine learning is such that the GPUs are $2.42/hour. We used them 5 hours in June. We are small so that type of approach fits our needs.

For bigger companies an on-prem approach may be better.

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Crazy-Rest5026@reddit

Yea I mean you are totally different environment. Makes sense in your circumstances. We are k-12 and need on-prem. 1 site cloud security camera data retention is 4k x 7 sites. But this is what the “boss man” wants. I think it’s fucking ridiculous but whatever. Taxpayers money going to waste.

But yea, definitely in ur env cloud is the way. Biggest thing would be mitigating costs.

Tbh VMware cost hike is only stupid expensive for shit ton of VM’s. As we literally have 15vms. I still prefer physical DC all day eryday as I have experienced vm dc’s and a corrupted host. Absolute nightmare. But overall VMware for us hasn’t been horrible. But once you get into thousands of VM’s then the cost is ridiculous.

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Haboob_AZ@reddit

Yeah, we have to use cloud for video storage and it's through the moon on costs. But no one can complain because that's what they wanted and they want all this video stored so... pay up.

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ExceptionEX@reddit

Yeah, maybe in 5 to 10 years. We've tested nearly every cradle phone for computer set up available. None of them are remotely functional as the cheapest desktop computer you can buy.

It really is a shame too because both Samsung (with DeX) and google are working on it, but the experience is just painfully bad.

I think that presentation sounds like someone who is listening to hypes and has big dreams. Glad I don't work for them.

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Sasataf12@reddit

Sounds like he's wanting to go VDI. Not a strange concept.

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flecom@reddit

Hope you dont live anywhere with natural disasters.... First thing that goes here is cellular... Yes even firstnet

I remember an agency back here decided they were spending too much on their LMR system and moved to nextel... After one weather incident they didn't have any comms for almost 2 weeks...

They went back to an LMR system

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IJustLoggedInToSay-@reddit

So I tell you what, that CPU-less workstation is probably going to be connecting to some on-demand VM in a private virtual network Azure, with a vendor billing yall for the cloud expenses, data charges, provisioning and management of the network, etc.

That is going to be expensive as fuck I can't even imagine.

So,,,,, is the vendor hiring?

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

VDI was not mentioned, but that does not mean it won't be there in some capacity. Could be VDIs or some sort of Enterprise Browser thing.

Following David Lithicum on LinkedIn, it seems larger places are bringing at least some data back on Prem. We are really small, and I told our CEO today we only have 90 days of SIEM. (some things six months) due to costs. I would think government would be more regulated for data retention.

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IJustLoggedInToSay-@reddit

It is pretty odd, having worked for companies that have the federal government as a client our data retention and protection protocols were pretty strict.

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nope_nic_tesla@reddit

CIO is a dumbass and this is going to be a disaster.

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MIGreene85@reddit

Sounds like the future former CIO

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

CIO means "Career is Over." CISO is "Career is suddenly over"

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Technical_Rub@reddit

Is he perchance related to a county commissioner?

I work for a hyperscaler and this is the stupidest idea I've ever heard.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

I do not have that information. As a taxpayer I am going to dig in more. My property taxes are something like $14,000/year.

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Haboob_AZ@reddit

Also, OP, what was the presenters name? What county?

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

I know the CIO's name/county but out of respect for her/him and the role, I won't post it on reddit. I would not want someone to do that to me without a way to defend myself or correct any of inaccuracies [I may have] in the narrative. She/He may change the strategy in the future, but I have found reddit posts that are 12 years old, and I would hate for inaccurate info to remain forever.

I mean no disrespect to you Haboob_AZ, and mean no disrespect to anyone else. My objective in posting was out of pure curiosity. I was completely perplexed by what I heard. I follow a lot of tech but this caught me off guard. This was just a small piece of the overall strategy, with a cloud-based ERP (which I have) and other approaches such as a third-party SOC.

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Haboob_AZ@reddit

I was just hoping it wasn't someone from my county and job, haha.

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mikeyflyguy@reddit

What county/state so i make sure i don’t move there

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

I posted in another reply that out of respect for the CIO, I don't want to out him/her, with want to defend or clarify. The future strategy may change but the reddit post will never be edited to update with new info. I do my best to treat others as I want to be treated. I mean no disrespect to you Mike.

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LitzLizzieee@reddit

I mean assuming you were moving to VDI based solutions like AVD, it honestly wouldn't be a horrible idea. I've definitely seen clients who just connect to AVD off an iPad, using an iPhone would be no different to them. You may not be able to connect up two monitors to an iOS device, but a big enough ultrawide solves that for 99% of the workplace.

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ML00k3r@reddit

It would be a neat idea seen in sci-fi shows and movies using a mobile device like a phone as the one device to rule them all type thing but we're not there.

The only company I can see even remotely doing this is Apple, and I would say that's a couple decades off, at minimum. With the advent of their A and M series chips, I can see them going to one OS for all the devices eventually.

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AcidBuuurn@reddit

I think Apple is trying to do this sooner rather than later. I’d bet within a decade.

The newer iMacs look like a big iPad on a stand. The iPad Pro is similar to some laptops. The MacBook Air got thicker edges to look more like an iPad.

A few years back they began to make the Settings more similar between iOS and macOS. I just read that they are introducing windowed apps into iOS 26. They’re working at it from both sides.

I’m still keeping my gaming PC, but I’m not the average user.

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UninvestedCuriosity@reddit

I really hope your prediction is right. As neat as it is, turning work enterprise i.t into just an appliance you subscribe to will come one way or another eventually I'm sure. Thankfully everyone is still greedy but I can imagine a future where distributed computing could cost almost nothing for 100s of thousands of users. So if it could take 2 decades, that would be nice.

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BoltActionRifleman@reddit

I feel genuinely sorry for the people who at the help desk who will have to troubleshoot this steaming pile of shit.

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gadget850@reddit

I wanna see this run ArcGIS.

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Stryker1-1@reddit

I mean could you do it? Yes. Should you do it? No.

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JaschaE@reddit

I think everyone who goes "Could work if alternate timeline where everything is browser based " hasn't seen the "Getting rid of the network" part of this pipe dream. I mean, sure, medium sized office building with 2-300 people connecting to the net using phones and...the one 5G mast across the street? Also, I think you can save a lot in terms of storage by deleting the body cam footage right away, saves you a couple extra steps, as often as those videos go inexplicably missing when needed.

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Haboob_AZ@reddit

We had talks a while ago about doing that, I think it was the whole Samsung environment (I'm local gov't too), but that CISO has since left and more organization has come in.

I think our current CIO or whatever his title is now (lots of stuff going on, won't get into it) has brought it up once or twice - but not getting everyone on it. Maybe just certain types of users, etc. Would honestly hate to do it and have to support it.

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roger_27@reddit

Microsoft tried to do this with Windows phones 15 years ago. Almost worked. Didn't though.

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CharcoalGreyWolf@reddit

Last time I heard of something like this, a former boss of mine (IT in education) was getting talked up on thin clients.

I told him “We have a policy on acceptable software, and that it must go through an approval process. The K-5 side not only has EDU software that won’t run on thin client or VDI, but one school disregarded the policy, bought it, and you told me I had to install it anyway. What will the reaction be when it happens again and nothing’s compatible?

We didn’t do it. I could see going Teams Phone nowadays, but with thin client and VDI, you’re just paying on the back end instead of the front end, it’s dependent on your bandwidth, and if you don’t have tight regulation on apps and a narrow number of them, you’ll end up being screwed.

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zeptillian@reddit

Thin clients are back baby!

Forget the cloud. You need to get yourself a proper mainframe and terminal setup if you want to get ahead of the "new" trends.

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weHaveThoughts@reddit

Stay away from IBM, Solaris is the way!

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mikeyflyguy@reddit

SCO!!

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severach@reddit

When I first read this I thought it wasn't too bad except for the 5g wifi. As I read the comments I picked up some terrible things that I didn't remember reading. Then I read it again, and wow is this bad.

Given how unlikely such bad ideas could come from a sentinent being, my brain was auto correcting to less bad ideas.

That 5g, it ain't no wifi.

Hopefully a PCI scan will get this guy canned.

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mikeyflyguy@reddit

He’ll just moved on to the next county and cause the same hellscape there

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dev_all_the_ops@reddit

If this is VDI then that's a perfectly acceptable solution. Basically everyone has thin clients.

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mikeyflyguy@reddit

VDI and CAD. lol

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davy_crockett_slayer@reddit

Absolutely. It's not 2005 anymore. My work has everything in the cloud, with hot desks for staff. Everyone has a laptop they take home.

Everyone posting here complaining just haven't kept up with the times. Cloud migrations are a thing. If money is no object, you lift and shift. If you have a budget, keep things on-prem that make sense, and everything new is put in the cloud.

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No-Boysenberry7835@reddit

How much your company spend on cloud each month?

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Recent_Carpenter8644@reddit

But are they running it on a phone?

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Marrsvolta@reddit

Name one phone that can be used with dual monitors on a dock

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davy_crockett_slayer@reddit

iPhone. It will be garbage for any roles that aren't basic.

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Tymanthius@reddit

Not that. But I do recall seeing 'thick credit card' sized pc's where the idea was you carry it around, no assigned desks, just plop it in a dock.

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petra303@reddit

The InFocus Kangaroo

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TrippTrappTrinn@reddit

Some companies have done it for a long time with laptops.

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Tymanthius@reddit

Yes, but I'm talking about something you can put in a shirt pocket.

It's basically useless w/o the dock.

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fuzzylogic_y2k@reddit

Intel made a PC near the size of a streaming stick, powered off USB and plugged into HDMI. Would be easy to carry around.

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No-Yak-4360@reddit

A smartphone with minimal battery and screen or no screen could be very small indeed.

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Tymanthius@reddit

yea, but it's also runnning an OS that isn't well optimized for general computing and has very little enterprise management in comparison.

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pleachchapel@reddit

Dumb as shit & will cost 5x whatever they're claiming the current savings are to fix.

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rileyg98@reddit

A MS partner has sold the decision maker on full cloud desktops for sure.

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No-Boysenberry7835@reddit

Look like embezzlement of public fund imo

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cwk9@reddit

I'm sure this could work in theory and might even be the norm in the future. But I wouldn't want to be the one trying to implement it today.

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Key-Calligrapher-209@reddit

You just reminded me of the Ubuntu Phone I read about a decade ago. I liked the concept of a mobile workstation that's also your phone. Never seen it play out in practice.

https://www.ubuntu-touch.io/

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tHeiR1sH@reddit

BlackBerry did this with OS10 and it was epic. It’s really unfortunate that OS didn’t have enough native apps early enough to survive long.

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Wonder_Weenis@reddit

Dude is literally snorting his own farts.

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981flacht6@reddit

Like the Samsung Dex stuff? Eventually one day sure..I can see that happening to a degree.

But it'll have to be Microsoft that gets it done. Especially for government.

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Gods-Of-Calleva@reddit

I remember seeing a demo of windows phone continuum, it genuinely had a bit of a wow factor as the performance and usability was very PC like. It unfortunately died with windows phone.

For a moment I was sold on the idea.

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DescriptionSenior675@reddit

LMAO yea good luck. They will get halfway through basic users before they even realize they need a plan for the cad guys, and the project will get put on hold forever.

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anonymousITCoward@reddit

I remember HP having something like this years ago... back when the Windows Phone was still alive... it didn't gain much traction then... I don't see it doing so now

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Forgotmyaccount1979@reddit

Hahaha, someone drank all of the koolaid from a sales team.

Best wishes for the poor staff that will be forced to implement it and then sold down the river when they get let go.

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wolfmann99@reddit

Yes, VDI will do this, its more expensive than that CEO knows especially if hes going to the cloud with it.

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InterDave@reddit

Well, there's no way this could be an issue during an emergency. So that's good. /s

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BrianKronberg@reddit

Yes, if they are also forcing everyone to Windows 365 or Azure Virtual Desktops for their primary desktop. At that point it really does not matter what your connection device is as your work is done in a VM. You find this in companies that hire a lot of independent contractors and they want to minimize their employee hardware footprint. Most industries have too many compliance rules for this today.

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i-sleep-well@reddit

As an Engineer with 20+ years of corporate IT experience with Fortune 500 companies, my professional opinion is: What the actual fuck?

I would laugh a loud, hideous cackle, in the face of anyone who even suggested this. It is just so bizarrely and obviously absurd that I could not avoid it.

I would then completely ignore any suggestions, direction or advice that person gave me going forward.

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RuncibleBatleth@reddit

Later he described how all employees will have a phone with a cradle and two monitors/keyboard/mouse, and will all be 5G/[6G -future I guess]. They would be 100% cloud.

Does Android or iOS support spanned multiple external displays at all? I don't think this is even possible unless the plan is for people to run PostmarketOS and rely on desktop Linux's superior peripheral support.

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Barrerayy@reddit

L fucking mao

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KiefKommando@reddit

Citrix was really big on this being a thing when I last had there sales guys in front of me a few years ago. Phones would just be the “thin clients” used to access the virtual apps or workspaces setup in the Citrix Farm.

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vermyx@reddit

As an experiment I did this for myself as my boss asked whether we could do windows arm edition. While i could do everything but printing the printing was a no go for us. I have worked completely off laptop for our workflows, but we are in manufacturing and we host our main app via rds farm. There are certain employees/industries that CAN do this but whether they should is a different matter

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lilhotdog@reddit

Maybe as a thin-client-esque setup where the devices are essentially used as RDP machines to the VDI farm where the actual work is done? I could see that but it’s still not ideal.

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longroadtohappyness@reddit

Good luck running county engineering software on that crap.

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Apprehensive_Bat_980@reddit

A type of Surface Pro form factor potentially? With data model. Some versions would take a flavour of CAD.

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techw1z@reddit

thats the second most scam-like idea i ever heard in IT right after crown sterling time AI😂

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Nonaveragemonkey@reddit

He's being paid by someone, or he's a fucking moron. No sane or competent IT manager of any level would back this play. You got a county number to call about wasteful spending and ethics to call?

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x4x53@reddit

People think it is a whole new idea - it's just thin clients and mainframes all over again. This time with Lipstick and on ketamine.

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illarionds@reddit

I would be polishing up my CV. That's going to be a disaster.

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_MrBalls_@reddit

No, this sounds like a huge disaster and waste of money.

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desmond_koh@reddit

Getting rid of the data center and the network?!?! Sounds like a naive IT hater. This strikes me as the same kind of person that thinks that AI is going to replace all IT personnel because some C-level exec got ChatGTP to write them a script.

...he described how all employees will have a phone with a cradle and two monitors/keyboard/mouse, and will all be 5G/[6G -future I guess].

We have taken a hard look at Samsung DeX and it is, in my opinion, by far the most evolved Android-based desktop. And it is really compelling. But it does not support dual monitors. None of them do. That and his comment about 6G makes me think he is fantasizing about technology that doesn’t exist yet (although it might some day).

Has anyone heard of such a thing - getting rid of the network and moving to a mobile only approach?

I have been excited about it since 2017. But it also fails to fully deliver, and a $600 notebook consistently provides a better overall computing experience. I remain convinced that there are applications for it. For example, some light-weight users can use the web-based versions of Excel, Word, etc. or live in a Google Workspace environment. The more compelling use is to use DeX combined with VDI/DaaS for when you need a full-blown Windows desktop (using DeX with Remote Desktop as the endpoint). But this fantasy nirvana that we are all going to walk around with our phones and there will be no network, no data center, no PCs and everyone will just use mobile devices with two 4K displays… LOL

Microsoft is doing a lot of work getting Windows working really well on Snapdragon processors. The x86 emulation is also getting better and better. So, I suspect that at some point we will have a 6” tablet that makes phone calls (i.e. a “phone”) from Microsoft that can be docked and turn into a full-fledged (albeit ARM-powered) desktop.

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cats_are_the_devil@reddit

That sounds like an absolute nightmare.

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Gold-Antelope-4078@reddit

Jesus. Our government dollars at work.

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bjc1960@reddit (OP)

It is for the county I live in, so it was of interest to me. I am a bit concerned over the police data as I am all about police accountability lately.

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LRS_David@reddit

As if Steve Jobs gave the iPhone demo and said it would be available in a week.

(It was a very controlled demonstration using 7 prototype phones, one for each feature displays. And very well rehearsed.

As someone who support CAD users, no frigging way. Unless a massive drop in productivity is OK.

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RetroHipsterGaming@reddit

I feel like this could work, but only assuming that every worker was just remoting onto some form of remote desktop. \^\^; Like it would need to 100% not rely on the smartphone itself.

Now with that said, you wouldn't catch me dead going that route. :|

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Proper-Cause-4153@reddit

We support a couple small towns. Obviously the cradle/network stuff sounds like a complete shit show.

The bodycam/dashcam stuff seems fine. That was always a specific vendor handling that. They used to have an onsite server with huge drives that would store all the videos. For the last update, that vendor pushed for their cloud offering that was essentially a wash price-wise. All that video gets uploaded to the cloud now and it works just fine. Of course, there is no way in hell that's going to work through 5G. Yeesh.

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NoTime4YourBullshit@reddit

That sounds like some shifty sales guy just won himself a salesman of the year award. There’s no way the user experience of that setup could match what the sales pitch promised.

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Shnorkylutyun@reddit

Why an expensive monitor? Get them each some AR glasses.

Bonus, they can even keep working on the loo.

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sadmep@reddit

CIO is a doof. This is gonna crash and burn in implementation.

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Unfixable5060@reddit

Hopefully they have some sort of testing planned before rolling it out to everyone, but with a CIO like this I wouldn't hold my breath for it.

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sadmep@reddit

[press conference begins]

"I... I don't know what happened. The vendors promised us it would work!"

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StumpytheOzzie@reddit

Yeah, we looked into it for our call centre. Back of the envelope calculations called it garbage.

If we can't do call centre grade work... Can't really see CAD and video and stuff working.

Priced badly too.

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dogcmp6@reddit

I mean, I have forgotten my laptop before, and have been able to get through a majority of a workday with just Samsung DEX and a thunderbolt dock.

However, its still really more of a "Im in a pinch" type of thing. The tech, and phone hardware still has a long ways to go to keep up with some tasks.

I think in the next decade we will see a push towards setups like this, but the hardware and UI are just not at the point where I would trust it as a users only device.

And also I would rather have a dedicated internet connection, than rely on 5g/6g

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eulynn34@reddit

Whaaaaat? No. This is the dumbest shit I have ever heard of and I've been doing this for over a quarter of a century. Please let us know what a disaster this sick experiment turns into.

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evolutionxtinct@reddit

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA….. good luck, to say the least.

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lustriousParsnip639@reddit

Sounds like a real visionary /s

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Brett707@reddit

That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

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cjcox4@reddit

Not yet. I mean, at that point, we're back to thin clients and/or converting everyone to Linux. There are pros and cons (and the cons are usually unwanted enough to cause big spends and back to "the way it was").

With that said, Microsoft is certainly "pushing" to a totally "cloud world". Just as long as their share of the money pie goes up... you know? Where I work, we will likely be one the first to do this (get rid of all on-prem and hybrid infra). That is going full cloud Microsoft. VPN, Azure, Entra, Fabric, etc.

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mr_data_lore@reddit

Sounds like the king of person who doesn't really know how anything works, but thinks they're a very good senior IT professional.

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Unfixable5060@reddit

This CIO has no clue what they're doing. He's about to waste a ton of the county's money on garbage that won't work properly and will end up costing more than what they currently have.

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ajscott@reddit

Axon (They make Taser brand devices as well) is the camera vendor and cloud storage with them is pretty much the industry standard at this point.

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Ok-Bill3318@reddit

This could work if they use VDI

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Tchiana@reddit

That CIO probably has a favourite flavour of lead paint.

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Connect_Hospital_270@reddit

County government, huh? Was the CIO promoted from Excel jockey because they know someone? Because that's the only way I can fathom these proposals.

Ironically plausible presentation in that level of government. Normally, there is some Greybeard around to squash that into the ground.

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