Question for more experienced pilots about an emergency scenario (based on a recent GA crash)
Posted by WorkingOnPPL@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 26 comments
As many of you know, there was recently a tragic GA crash on the runway 16 departure leg at Beverly Regional Airport (BVY/KBVY). Based on the aerial views of the area, this airport would be pretty unforgiving in terms of off-field emergency landing spots.
A CFI who witnessed the crash said the following:
"A witness, who was a flight instructor at BVY, watched the airplane depart. He said there was a “significant reduction in power” when the plane was 150 ft agl and approximately halfway down the 5,001-ft-long runway. He said, “A few seconds later it seemed as though the plane got power back partially. The pilot initiated a left turn to the east (in what appeared to be an attempt to turn around or land on the intersecting runway 9). While turning it sounded as though there was another significant reduction in power. The plane began to descend with its wings level eventually falling in what appeared to be a stalled state behind the tree line to the crash site. In my estimation, the plane never appeared to get higher than 200’ agl.”
https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/520704
My question for more experienced pilots: If you are at 150 feet agl, halfway down the runway, and the RPM suddenly drops and the engine sounds funny, are you immediately pulling power and driving it down to the runway, even if you overrun the runway?
I ask this, because we always hear about the 3-second startle factor, and it seems like in this accident, there could of been a case of RPM drops for a second, then climbs back up partially a second later, and the pilot (mistakenly) assumes they might be able to limp back around the pattern to the runway. Which is a natural desire - nobody wants to make an immediate emergency landing and possibly damage a plane over a 1-second indication on an RPM gauge....but perhaps that "overreaction" is the correct reaction to this scenario?
GummoRabbit@reddit
Lots of good advice here. Be careful about searching for a definitive answer because each case is going to be different. For each flight you need to have contingencies and decision "gates" already planned out. Then when you advance throttle for takeoff you don't have to decide anything, you simply execute the plan. These gates will usually be altitudes but can also be geographic landmarks or flight profile points (e.g. once initial turn complete), such as airports with challenging terrain.
When you design the plan, err on the side of worst case scenario/lowest common denominator. For example, in the case of a partial power failure, don't assume the engine will continue to work.
For a fun exercise of this, plan a flight out of TEX, winds favoring runway 27. What will do if you develop partial power at each point of the takeoff? What if you were in a light twin and would have slightly negative single engine performance?
cyondios@reddit
I grew up in that town. I sure as shit wouldn't want to try putting it down on the highway below.
spacecadet2399@reddit
I've bolded the last part because it is important. That qualified question turns it into a qualified answer... "it depends".
What's at the immediate end of the runway? Trees? A cliff? Or is it just an open field?
At the airport I trained and time-built at, what was at the end of the runway was a busy road and then a mangrove of orange trees. You've probably seen the airport I'm talking about in the news because there have been runway overruns there that have killed people, both in planes and on the ground. And not just in the distant past, either.
Not every situation in aviation requires the same response. Most situations involve some amount of judgment. This is one of those situations. You need to be thinking about what to do in this situation in advance, and considering the current airport you're flying out of. You should also be briefing this on the ground to whoever you're flying with, or to yourself if you're single pilot. Even when I flew solo, I always verbalized what I was going to do out loud in the event of a full or partial power loss.
There is no blanket response for what to always do in a partial power loss situation, other than "think about it ahead of time."
3Green1974@reddit
A few years ago I took a course at Flight Safety called “The Go/No Go Decision” (or something close to that anyway). They covered all kinds of scenarios involving emergencies above V1, including immediate returns to the airport. It’s a really great class but it’s aimed at high performance aircraft.
There should be something similar for light GA aircraft (maybe there is now). During primary training we get taught things that sound good on paper, but in practice just aren’t that great. If you’ve got the runway ahead of you, use it. Don’t be afraid to land on a road, or a taxiway, or a flat piece of land at the airport, or with a tail wind. But keep it on or as close to the airport as you can. It’ll be easier for CFR to get to you in most cases.
We get told this all the time. The first thing to do in an emergency is Aviate. Do what you need to do to save yourself and your passengers. The plane can be replaced.
TheShellCorp@reddit
You answered your question-
The correct response is close throttle and land on remaining runway.
The actual reaction is likely whatthehell?power comes back a little "oh whew I'll just come around for 9 and land" power dies again* "uh oh".
Hemmschwelle@reddit
At my home airport, prior to every takeoff (to the south), I visualize landing in the trees when the engine stops. Impossible turn and off field hayfield landing are not realistic options until I get pretty high. When the engine does not die on takeoff, I take a moment to 'count my lucky stars'. Pessimism is protective because there's less delay when things go awry. There's no time to 'think things through'. One needs to execute a pre-loaded plan.
My plan is a 'full stall landing' into the trees as this is the best survivable option. Stall-spin into trees is likely to be fatal. If I'm not prepared and committed to landing in the trees, I'm going to pull up the nose, stall spin and probably die.
Taking off to the north, there's an overrun area where I can land, and then probably 'nose over'. There are landable hayfields if I'm higher. I visualize those options before taking off. After my first off-airport emergency landing, I became much more comfortable with that option. I recommend practicing off-airport landings to the point of 'going around' from short final. Picking the field and visualizing the landout roll is something that one can improve proficiency with a little work.
swoodshadow@reddit
I’m just curious, you said you recommend practicing off-airport landings to the point of going around. In Canada that’s a part of getting your PPL and an item on the flight test. Is it different in the US or am I just misunderstanding.
Blah-Blah-Blah-2023@reddit
I practices loads of simulated cable breaks as a glider pilot when I was a kid. 300ft decision height - below that land ahead, about that circle-to-land.
I think PPL power pilots should be forced to do some gliding. Every landing is dead stick ;)
Hemmschwelle@reddit
Power pilots are welcome at my gliding 'commercial cooperative' (aka club).
Our glider flight training is a very upbeat and positive experience for everyone. 'Forcing glider experience' would change the tone.
Blah-Blah-Blah-2023@reddit
Yeah maybe not compulsory then! 'Forced' as in 'forced landing' lol.
bhalter80@reddit
I say this in the perfect world echo chamber where we teach that if something happens and the gear is down we land. An Archer (which is fixed gear) will do -4000 FPM in a full slip so that's 2 seconds to descend 150'. Add to that the startle you're talking 5 seconds and 80 KIAS which comes out to 500'
If you have your shit together and close the throttle, and slip it you can make it. Does this get practiced? Likely not widely
thrfscowaway8610@reddit
It should be. When they taught me to fly, this was featured on the second lesson. And a lot of lessons after that.
TobyADev@reddit
I’m not particularly experienced but I’m landing back on the runway I took off from. Cut power, flaps, gently put it down. If I’ve accelerated and took off and then have half a runway left, you bet I’m using it to get back down on whilst decelerating
Dave_A480@reddit
Engine trouble halfway down a 5,000ft runway? 150ft AGL?
Boost pump on, back down we go... An overrun is less-bad than failure on climbout. Also at that point I have 2500ft to land a plane that really only needs about 900.... And I'm already lined up, low and slow.... Probably won't even overrun....
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Partial engine failures are tricky, because you could have an infinite different scenarios with various levels of power available between 0 and 100%. It's great that we're starting to see more focus in training syllabus for this, rather than just a complete power failure.
For the airplane I fly for fun, I've determined the RPM values I use for partial engine failure scenario (like an RPM drop you mention) in both clean and takeoff configurations, so I know what amount of power I need to maintain level flight at best glide speed. If I can achieve that RPM, I might consider continuing with level flight, while being aware that an engine can fail at any time. If I can't, then it's only one way down, and probably closing the throttle completely once I'm sure I can make a suitable field.
Runway overrun at fairly low speed it's much less likely to be lethal than a stall/spin from a mishandled partial engine failure, so I'd be inclined to close throttle and get the aircraft on the ground, and deal with the consequences there. But it all depends on case-by-case scenario, depending on the terrain and obstacles in the departure area, which is why a bespoke pre-takeoff briefing is essential before every departure.
tomdarch@reddit
Effectively all my PPL-level training is for all/nothing situations. (Which isn't crazy - there's a huge amount to learn, of course.) But I'd really like to have better plans in mind to deal with partial power situations to improve the odds if I ever face that situation.
capt_Obvious2u@reddit
I only have to worry about the quarry on the north end of the field, but yeah, I’m chopping the throttle and dropping that thing on the runway. Insurance can pay for the mess their covered asset decided to make. I’m taking my happy rear end home
Large_Intention_9476@reddit
Keep the plane flying (I.e. in a non-stalled, controllable state) all the way to the ground. Attempt to clear obstructions, but always keep it flying.
Merican1973@reddit
Is skidding off the runway at low speed or crashing at higher speed in unforgiving terrain and/or stalling and crashing with a high descent rate the most survivable?
I will take a slow speed overrun of the runway any day.
Plus_Goose3824@reddit
Every pilot should have a mental or verbal briefing of decision altitudes. Such as, if I dont have proper airspeed at xyz taxiway, then reject takeoff. Power failure below 200ft land straight ahead. Power failure 200ft-1000ft, that certain field or highway is my emergency landing site. Above 1000ft circle to land at the airport.
For unfamiliar airports, it is hard to have actual good numbers for some of these decisions, but the low altitude decisions and a personal threshold for the impossible turn should be pretty much consistent with a slight variable for the weather factoring into a turn back to the airport.
It is always wise to use all available runway because you never know when you'll need it.
WorkingOnPPL@reddit (OP)
I appreciate your response - I guess my question is, sure, we know what we are going to do on a power failure, but what about a 1-second power failure that "appears" to temporarily resolve itself? It's that grey area that I'm wondering about.
Plus_Goose3824@reddit
In my ~110 hrs of flying I've fortunately never experienced an rpm drop like that. I kind of mentally take note on takeoff that now that I am out of ground effect, established with my Vx or Vy climb speed and attitude and that I'm airborne. Any problem encountered requires troubleshooting in the air, not diving back to the runway. If I'm not established in my climb out yet is when I'd really consider setting the plane back down. The exception could be a really long towered runway if you were taking off full length. Sometimes I've been ready to turn crosswind at 500ft while still over the runway.
Density altitude changes in my region mean that one altitude can't always be used for that decision because in the winter I could be 100ft off the runway by the midpoint and in the summer have no chance of touching back down after takeoff. There's always going to be some transition zone in flight that has the greatest risk where it would be risky to put the plane back down or risky to keep flying. In this transition zone, you could experience an indecision delay in addition to the startle factor delay so you want to preplan some decision points as best as you can.
AngryCamelTeeth@reddit
Bury the nose. Fly the plane as far into the crash as possible. Your chances of surviving a forced landing without stalling are exponentially higher.
If that happens on a runway or overrun, then great. If not, any flat surface will do.
Gorn_DNA@reddit
I would 💯 rather take my chances on the ground than being 150’ up in the air, out of airspeed and out of ideas.
walleyednj@reddit
There’s never an innocent reason for a RPM drop on takeoff. Personally, I’m pulling the throttle and putting it back down on the runway. I’ll happily trash my brakes and tires stopping to avoid a stall/spin.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
As many of you know, there was recently a tragic GA crash on the runway 16 departure leg at Beverly Regional Airport (BVY/KBVY). Based on the aerial views of the area, this airport would be pretty unforgiving in terms of off-field emergency landing spots.
A CFI who witnessed the crash said the following:
"A witness, who was a flight instructor at BVY, watched the airplane depart. He said there was a “significant reduction in power” when the plane was 150 ft agl and approximately halfway down the 5,001-ft-long runway. He said, “A few seconds later it seemed as though the plane got power back partially. The pilot initiated a left turn to the east (in what appeared to be an attempt to turn around or land on the intersecting runway 9). While turning it sounded as though there was another significant reduction in power. The plane began to descend with its wings level eventually falling in what appeared to be a stalled state behind the tree line to the crash site. In my estimation, the plane never appeared to get higher than 200’ agl.”
https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/520704
My question for more experienced pilots: If you are at 150 feet agl, halfway down the runway, and the RPM suddenly drops and the engine sounds funny, are you immediately pulling power and driving it down to the runway, even if you overrun the runway?
I ask this, because we always hear about the 3-second startle factor, and it seems like in this accident, there could of been a case of RPM drops for a second, then climbs back up partially a second later, and the pilot (mistakenly) assumes they might be able to limp back around the pattern to the runway. Which is a natural desire - nobody wants to make an immediate emergency landing and possibly damage a plane over a 1-second indication on an RPM gauge....but perhaps that "overreaction" is the correct reaction to this scenario?
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