How do you handle ageism?
Posted by MANUAL1111@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 70 comments
It seems like at certain age you start to be depreciated, or at least that's my experience within the past 5 years where on each new job offer I am receiving less and less compensation
Is it just me? I am desperately trying to work on sideprojects with purpose to find me some independence and extra incomes to overcome this but after receiving these offers I am left wondering what are your experiences
I am thinking on going overemployed but I fear that will affect either my sideprojects or credibility in the market for not focusing on the job at hand
DeterminedQuokka@reddit
I don't think it's ageism that the money is going down, I think the bubble burst and the market is unfortunately regulating down until people realize how bad all their vibe code is again and we get expensive again.
MANUAL1111@reddit (OP)
Jokes on you but I think this is a good niche to market: “Are you working on your next Fortune 500 MVP using AI? Hire us, we help you finish it and make it production ready”
I have seen lots of posts of clearly non programmers doing quick projects who can’t see their flaws (I know because I am currently fixing my own AI made prototype)
DeterminedQuokka@reddit
I'm not worried about the prototypes most of them will fail. But in 3-5 years people will suddenly have a lot of giant, legacy code bases written by AI that don't work and they won't have trained enough juniors in how to write good code to debug them. I'm already in a niche where I get paid very well to fix human written legacy codebases. AI written code is even harder.
Unless AI is actually to the moon, and all devs get fired. But all evidence is it's a step function.
Also if you are writing an AI codebase if it's not too late, avoid too much javascript. I was reading some research earlier. Because the of the training set javascript code tends to be worse than languages like C and Java.
MANUAL1111@reddit (OP)
JS frameworks and the ecosystem is a spaghetti mess, I can see why AI has the worst results there
I believe this is one of the primary reasons why HTMX and similar projects have garnered so much attention in recent years
bravopapa99@reddit
Working with HTMX + Django now... mind blowing fast and productive, I got our React guys running scared! HAHAHA
MANUAL1111@reddit (OP)
HTMX is very productive specially if you’re backend focused, makes me think I should start freelancing but then I remember I have no clients
yoggolian@reddit
Do you have a good reference for HTMX & Django? (I’m having a go at cutting out the middle and just going with FastHtml).
bravopapa99@reddit
Just using stock HTMK, and the django-htmx plugin pretty much
https://htmx.org/
https://pypi.org/project/django-htmx/
DeterminedQuokka@reddit
I think that's probably true. Most of the hype I've seen around tailwind is basically that you don't have to write your own custom CSS reset every time now.
I also think that there are like defaults set in some of the vibe engines so they always use the same libraries that are not necessarily the right tools.
JS also moves a lot faster than other languages. Like django has changed maybe 15% over the course of my 10 year career. I haven't written react in 3 years and it's basically unrecognizable.
But I do think the primary issue is that like copilot is training on bootcamp code.
Yodiddlyyo@reddit
React changed one time, 6 years ago, where they switched from class components to function components. That's really it. But I do agree, JS has changed a lot over the past 15 years, the vast majority of it for the better though.
Ok-Chair-7320@reddit
How does python sits in terms of the train dataset quality?
DeterminedQuokka@reddit
So I had an article about this so I went and read it to see what we “know”. All this was leetcode based so that grain of salt. And at least some of it looks like recitation.
It’s also copilot.
Python was significantly worse than c and Java. They relate that to newer engines we’re using Python. But they also bring up rightly that a lot of the features that are optional in Python are require in Java and c. Like typing. So it’s harder for the models to train on Python and tell what it’s doing. This leads to it generating less options than c or Java 6 vs. 10. And how likely you were to be right was basically directly linked to how many solutions you generated. Python was also less likely to have the first solution be the best solution. But using as directed that should be okay as the general principle is to generate 5 responses and take the best one.
DeterminedQuokka@reddit
Better than JavaScript worse than like C. Python is a lot of college students/first programming language. But it also changes less than JavaScript so there are more relevant examples.
All of the training suffers from the “public” issue. Most of the really well optimized and battle tested code that looks like code someone wants to write professionally is private. So you are still training on people’s personal projects in majority and people care less about them being great.
It also suffers from the recency bug that all LLMs suffer from. Which I have mostly seen in the fact they are exceptionally bad at pyright specifically.
The biggest issue that I have had with Python is for some reason they seem to think the solution to linters/tests not working is to skip them or shut them off. It’s really tough to convince them that it would actually be better to fix them. I had one literally just remove all the instances of the word assert when I asked it to make the tests pass.
I’m more successful with Python personally if I prompt specifically but I’m also much better at Python. Which is why it won’t take our jobs.
The actions in Python are similar to the actions in JavaScript but the impact is dimmed by the fact that the language standards are more focused on backwards compatibility. So when it generates a thing in node 12 and python 3.9 which are both out of date. The node fix was significantly more painful than the python fix which was just to set it to 3.12. The node “fixing” was also weird because of my lower knowledge. But it’s a lot less common in python when to fix code that’s outdated by a few years to have to replace an entire package. Whereas this was true with the generated js. But also the random js admin at my job no one touched on a year.
Of course on the other side of all this. They are less confused in the lost sense with Python and JavaScript because the training set is dense which is worth something.
From anecdotal experience the thing ChatGPT has been best at is LaTex. And the thing Kilo has been the most successful with is Racket. Which honestly was surprising. But maybe it’s because a lot of public Racket code is basically the same Racket code I’m messing with.
My favorite use case is “I’m see X behavior, find it in this code” which I’ve mostly done with a next/react/opengl project some contractors built for my job. But I’ve never actually edited it just debugged it.
PM_40@reddit
Which evidence ?
DeterminedQuokka@reddit
Mostly the history of how AI has grown since 1950. But I personally would mix into that the research happening right now that the general assumption that we can scale into AGI appears to be false and the models are already hitting a ceiling. I think of it like
Basically, it's this sort of thing https://medium.com/groveventures/technologys-favorite-curve-the-s-curve-and-why-it-matters-to-you-249367792bd7
But I definitely could be wrong. I just don't see anything in the pattern that indicates what is happening now is different than the previous peaks. It's not dissimilar from Moore's law breaking eventually.
What will be interesting I think is if you can shorten the cycles.
PM_40@reddit
Definitely I can sense some fishiness in the market even though I couldn't put my finger on it. It sounds like Crypto mania of 2018-2019 where meme coins were predicted to go to the moon. Most tech innovations are rarely a straight line upward but if you listen to AI CEOs it seems like AGI will come tomorrow, cure of cancer by end of week and interstellar travel by end of month. AI is a great innovation but I know that don't ask a barber if you need a haircut.
DeterminedQuokka@reddit
So I heard this amazing metaphor that crypto was "speed running the history of financial fraud"
I think AI is sort of speed running a tech bubble. I mean no joke I got a recruiter thing the other day from a company that was basically the same as that amazon service where AI knows what you bought, and AI was a guy in India. I was so confused, because I don't believe that's solved.
The way I think about it is the less you know the more magic AI seems. So there are a lot of people who know very little and when AI works at all it seems like magic. But to the people who already know how to write that code, almost no magic unfortunately.
I don't have the reference, but I read a really great article a few years ago about how the "AI boom" didn't actually follow any like actual huge technical breakthrough in how smart a machine could be. It followed a breakthrough in how human a machine could sound. It was never about correctness for the wider public. It was about passing a fake turning test.
terrany@reddit
You mean, promote AI in every codebase using javascript right? To promote job security :^)
DeterminedQuokka@reddit
I mean I don't write javaScript so that's not helpful for me. But thankfully Python has the same issue.
doberdevil@reddit
Good advice in general.
I know, I know, I'll take the hate. Years ago I used to make a joke about "JavaScript: The Good Parts" being such a thin book because there were very few good parts about it.
Back on topic though, debugging, maintaining, and extending legacy codebases is not going to be something AI will be good at for another 5-10 years, maybe ever.
DeterminedQuokka@reddit
I think 10 years is optimistic. AI can't maintain a codebase it just wrote. I know because I'm currently rewriting one that is literally 7 files because one of the pretty good AIs, is completely lost. And I agree it's code is terrible and impossible to edit. Mostly because it messed up the core architecture.
doberdevil@reddit
I'm just thinking about how much better it's become in the last two years. Unless it's plateauing, it's going to keep getting better. That's the entire point.
DeterminedQuokka@reddit
Yeah, I've not had that experience. I actually feel like several of the tools have gotten worse in the last 6 months. But to be fair I don't actually think it's a model issue I think they changed the prompts in a way that broke some of the better tools. Because if I talk to 4o and o3 in the chatGPT interface they are significantly more useful than they are in the copilot or codex interface at the moment.
I also think it just really depends what you are doing and how you are doing it. Like I've found it to be great for docker files is slightly out of date. And like I said elsewhere, javaScript from scratch in any of them is a nightmare, it's just vulnerabilities all the way down.
I have recently started using some of the architect models particularly from Kilo and I think that they actually seem potentially helpful. Although, it did architect the thing I just had to completely rewrite because it messed it up. But there is probably a workflow where you do it realize it messed it up and start over repeatedly until you figure it out. It just seemed faster in this case for me to just rewrite it myself so I didn't try that.
I have on my list to look into like custom coding models for like generating specific things. But it's low on the list because the main case is tests and I already have mixins for all of that in my codebase at work, so it's a lot of effort for minimal benefit at the moment.
Dobata988@reddit
You're not imagining it age bias and perceived "seniority cost" are real, especially in tech. Employers often favor "high-potential" junior talent over experienced devs with higher salary expectations. Building income streams through side projects is smart, but going overemployed risks context-switching burnout and can hurt perceived commitment. You might get better ROI by focusing on productizing one solid side project before juggling multiple roles.
MANUAL1111@reddit (OP)
yes the issue is that this could be hit or miss, and there’s an age you just can’t keep taking many risks
Curious_Brush_9299@reddit
I don’t think it’s abt ageism skill is skill. The thing is cs I saw in some study is salaries peak after around 15yrs ie experience vs salary. So as you age you reach a salary peak. So by 40 as a dev don’t expect 100% increase in salary. The bumps go up say 5%. Of course this is an avg because you could be paid 100m by Facebook if you are on their elite AI teams, or 800m yearly as a principal software engineer at Google but the avg peak in salaries happens around 40yrs old
sleepyguy007@reddit
Personally i saw this oversupply happening 5-6 years ago when my supercuts hairstylist told me she was learning java….. you handle this by not being nice , job hopping getting your money when you can and having no loyalty. You get paid during good times, dont spend the money and build a nest egg and stay marketable while you can. Like i like a good engineering problem and building fun things too but 4-5 years ago the writing was on the wall. I kjnda hate my job today but 350+ a year and setting it aside to be ready for a horrible downturn i do it and invest. Get rich so your dividend and passive income will let you weather eventual storms
bacmod@reddit
Reminds me of that story from 1920's when John D. Rockefeller was having his shoes shined. The shoe shine boy, presumably not knowing who Rockefeller was, started giving him stock tips. So he decided that if the shoe shine boy is giving him stock advice - it was time to get out of the market.
MANUAL1111@reddit (OP)
I can accept a lousy job, I can’t accept people messing with my life for free
bravopapa99@reddit
I am 60 this year, still working. I detected a certain amount of bias 20 years ago from agencies but I tricked them, once they knew they were caught their attitude changed. Left of my DOB, and last 4 pages of CV to boost callback rate.
Never let a client down yet with my experience!
seinfeld4eva@reddit
Ageism is a real thing -- people who don't agree just aren't old enough yet. It affects every industry, but it can be especially insidious in the tech industry, where startups favor young people who are willing to do anything to get a job. Even large companies can discriminate against age -- it all depends on the hiring manager -- and it can be quite subtle.
If you feel you're facing these issues, feel free to leave off anything on your resume that is older than 10 or 12 years. You can just say "Full work history available upon request." In tech, there's no requirement to show your entire history. The skills have changed entirely from even 6 or 8 years ago, and anything over 10 years isn't really relevant today. Also, if you got a degree in college, you can remove the dates. Make them ask your age if they feel the need to, but only after you've had a chance to make an impression on them with an interview.
MoreRespectForQA@reddit
It mostly affects companies run by young people.
Idea-Aggressive@reddit
Depends, if age means a lot of experience and growth. That is valued!
What happens is that a lot of folks, think that because they are older, they deserve better pay.
You need to go out more and talk to young hard working and bright minds. Be humble!
VanillaRiceRice@reddit
Seniority. Learning to do the job that juniors can't do where wisdom, credibility, and experience are the assets.
No-Economics-8239@reddit
There is always a balance. The more experience you have, the more valuable you are likely to become. But... are you doing the work of two junior developers? Three? Five?
At some point, a bean counter is going to think you're overvalued and prefer the gaggle of juniors. Presumably because they believe they have enough seniors to oversee them all and mentor them to become new seniors.
But this is all subjective. It's not every company or every HR team. Each one will view their needs for experience differently. Especially if you happen to have just the right amount of experience on the tech stacks they really need.
And of course, the state of the economy and the number of developers currently looking for work also impacts that equation.
Plus, the more experienced and successful you are, the less likely you will be willing to put up with bullshit. Consistently being told you need to stay late or they don't have the room in the budget for a pay raise is less likely to pass muster with you. But for a new college graduate who is eager to make a good impression? Sir, yes, sir.
I stopped putting dates on my resume. I list my degrees, but not when I got them. And I don't list everywhere I've worked or when I worked there, just how long and on what. And I edit those accomplishments to highlight the things I believe are relevant to my prospective employer.
Assuming you are good at what you do, someone will find that valuable somewhere. How easy that is for you to find and how easily you can distinguish yourself from the other applicants is highly variable and largely outside your control. Add to that your ability to stay relevant in a constantly changing industry. Although, apparently, my COBOL experience is still valuable even though I haven't touched it in decades. So I've got that going for me. Which is nice.
MANUAL1111@reddit (OP)
Interesting about your CV, not even linkedin?
No-Economics-8239@reddit
Linkedin got bought out by Microsoft, which triggers my PTSD. So I use github to showcase my... crap. So, I host my projects and accolades on my own website.
But a sufficiently skilled net search could likely undercover specifics. And, of course, with the big data brokers out there, getting detailed information on a prospective employee is potentially worth the price.
Adorable-Fault-5116@reddit
I hate to do this on your account's birthday, but you'll be shocked to learn who owns github these days...
tehfrod@reddit
Yes, that's what the "...crap." means, and why they showcase their projects on their own site.
Adorable-Fault-5116@reddit
this is what I get for reading before waking
ExtremeAcceptable289@reddit
Didn't github also get bought by MS?
tehfrod@reddit
That's the joke.
birdparty44@reddit
i think just in general the wage index has decreased since the app economy started.
What bothers me is when colleagues don’t actually see the value in your contributions and you watch them make the same mistakes you did, despite saying “you should care about this; it will likely be a problem” and then it is.
Fit-Goal-5021@reddit
>How do you handle ageism?
It's you. At first I would say it's the market - they're paying what people are willing to accept. It's like any other market for goods, except the good is your skills. Overall, the market for your skills pays $X right now. Sorry, unless your resume brags about giving gagging blowjobs on top of a solid green commit graph, then that's all you're worth. For example, I took a 25% pay cut to stay working during covid, but then switched employers when offers exploded later for the same work. I expect to take a pay cut at my next job too, but making $140K a year is nothing to whine about, FFS. Realize people would kill to have your problems, and saying it's "ageism" sounds like an excuse to fail.
Skills and demands change over time. Retrain to stay relevant, then people will value you more. Take on a new job using your new skill, you might have to take a pay cut to "practice your trade" until you get more experience in that specific skill. But whining about it accomplishes nothing.
I don't understand why supposedly brilliant people struggle with this, especially when they have a few years experience. Are you an engineer? Why did you become a dev? Was it just for the money, you common whore? Or are you allergic to sunlight, like a vampire, and this is all you are good for? Do you even care about what you do? Have you been locked up coding in a white room all these years, no windows unable to see outside, unable how do handle yourself anymore? Can you even remember why you do this anymore? Are you this easily replaceable with AI, because the difference is AI doesn't whine so much? Maybe you are an imposter, and the syndrome is not a syndrome at all?
Fucking buffoonery asking this kind of question here. If you're an "experienced dev" ageism never comes up, because people value you based on merit. Does this really need to be explained to anyone?
son_ov_kwani@reddit
Why are you toxic ? 😂
FatedMoody@reddit
Are you applying to companies that are known to pay very well?
MANUAL1111@reddit (OP)
Not yet, but sadly most of the well paying companies are in other countries
Do you know some good worldwide remote job boards?
DeterminedQuokka@reddit
It depends how you categorize well but most companies that pay well geocode salaries so you aren't going to get like the crazy US numbers in another country even if it's a US company.
MANUAL1111@reddit (OP)
Im not talking about 200k or more, one offer was 4k usd per month (50k a year). I am very sure that is a very low number in the market right now for 10+ years of experience
DeterminedQuokka@reddit
I don't know where you are, or how markets are moving in different locations. But the low number I'm being given in the US today is higher than the low number I was getting 3 years ago. Both of them are too low to consider. The average is around 10-15k down. The highest numbers are down around 25k. But the US is on a different scale. I'm generally seeing 210 - 240 right now. So basically, the staff positions pay about the same as the senior 2 position I left 3 years ago.
FatedMoody@reddit
Remote, meaning outside of the US? Unfortunately no. Even well paying remote inside of the US is getting pretty rough
MANUAL1111@reddit (OP)
yeah that’s my fear, I think I have to accept this offer and just try to continue with my journey on finding independence
But it suck’s that 5 years ago I was receiving very good compensation, got the opportunity to travel and meet people that have helped me opening doors, to spiral down into a tumor, losing jobs, depression and earning less each time
xabrol@reddit
I don't know about you but it's because you had a plateau.
Senior developers get raises every year typically between 3% and 10%. And let's say you job hopped to $150,000 before you parked and started staying there for the raises.
It only takes 4 years to pass 180k....
When you've passed what other companies want to pay developers you stop getting bigger raises because you're too expensive the job offers go down too. You just maje to much.
It's an illusion that it's because of your age.
Like I'm 41 at $182k. I haven't had a job offer over 140k in over a year.. I'm too expensive for anybody that isn't fortune 500.
Optimus_Primeme@reddit
One point of contention I have is the notion that you need certifications or more than a bachelors to make more than 300k. I equate certifications to lower paying jobs to be quite honest. I also don’t know many people with more than a bachelors. I certainly don’t know anyone in my group with a masters or phd and we all make well over $300k.
_hypnoCode@reddit
Yeah, I'm in a company with base pay for seniors in the US over $200k and Principals who make in the 7 figures. Nobody has or cares about certs.
I've have a team member from AWS who didn't even know you could get certs for AWS and a project he lead is part of that cert.
SmellyButtHammer@reddit
Yeah, at my company you don’t need certs because if you run into a problem you ask the vendor and they help get it fixed because we pay them a boatload of money for support.
xabrol@reddit
Yeah I had it in my main comment and set it like 15 times elsewhere but they're not for you they're for consulting companies that are hiring you and it's mostly a thing in consulting.
_hypnoCode@reddit
Exactly. We're our cloud provider's biggest customer.
xabrol@reddit
I edited my main comment but the search aren't for you there for the consulting companies that are hiring developers and need a percentage of their developers to have them.
xabrol@reddit
They're not useless you're not getting the certification for you you're getting it for your employer...
Of course this mostly pertains to consulting companies...
If you want your company to be a Microsoft gold certified partner or an AWS certified partner so that you can get access to the client pool that only looks at companies that are AWS or Azure certified then you need certain percentage of your employees to have these certifications therefore you hire somebody that has one over somebody that's more qualified because you make more money.
MANUAL1111@reddit (OP)
FAANG?
aoa2@reddit
certifications are 100% worthless, just fyi.
xabrol@reddit
You misunderstand what I'm saying.
You don't need the certification for you. The company needs you to have it.
Especially in consulting as I said in another comment the company needs to have a certain percentage of its employees to have Azure and AWS certifications to be part of their partnership programs which gets you access to a larger client pool.
Just like you need developers with a top secret clearance to work on government contracts.
So if a company needs these things they're going to hire somebody that has them over somebody that doesn't even if the person that has them is less qualified.
MANUAL1111@reddit (OP)
I tend to agree except for very niche certificates, they help to get clients sometime, but for a software company to hire? not that much
MANUAL1111@reddit (OP)
Well I am not in the US so your numbers are very different than mine, I lived there for 3 months and I almost spent 3 salaries of my currency there including all expenses, so it makes sense that if you live there your numbers are higher
vvf@reddit
There’s been about 10,000 threads regarding the shrinking job market over the past few years. This tends to happen when supply greatly outstrips demand. If you’ve been off the market for 5 years then you may not have noticed this trend.
MANUAL1111@reddit (OP)
I have not been off the market, haven’t even applied yet as I seriously want to finish something to see where it goes before starting but I do receive offers (Today for example) and they always go down
NoleMercy05@reddit
Retire, its kinda hopeless at certain point. At least for me.
Good luck
Illustrious_Stop7537@reddit
Haha, well I think age is just a number... unless you're talking about senior discounts, then it's totally justified
MANUAL1111@reddit (OP)
senior discounts?