IFR Filing Etiquette?

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doorbell2021@reddit

How do you fly a missed approach from a t&g?

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tingtongtravels@reddit

The exact same way except you’re roughly 200ft lower and your wheels have kissed the ground.

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akav8r@reddit

Missed approach isn't terped from the runway.

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So if someone's flying a jet into a non-towered airport, they get the field in sight at-or-above mins, they get to the pavement and hit a gust and become unstable... they go around, and in the process their wheels touch down for a second... they come back up and report to you "on the published missed."

What are you supposed to say to them? "Neener neener, think again, bucko?"

I do understand where they're coming from, especially in mountainous areas. The pilot should really be thinking through this possibility ahead of time and should be planning on flying a DP rather than the missed approach if this happens. But if they don't, well, what are you supposed to do with them?

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akav8r@reddit

I couldn’t care less. It’s just one of those “well, technically…” situations. We used to do it all the time until that one controller who has to ruin everything by asking questions we don’t want to know the answers to, sent it up the chain.

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kmac6821@reddit

There’s nothing illegal about it. This is quite common and a VMC day.

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doorbell2021@reddit

If you are doing it VFR, under the hood, fine. It is not a proper IFR procedure.

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kmac6821@reddit

According to whom?

Have you not actually done that?

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doorbell2021@reddit

A missed approach from a T&G? Absolutely not. A missed is not at all designed for that. I don't believe in making up my own instrument procedures.

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kmac6821@reddit

I take it you’re not familiar at all with a balked landing either. Or a departure?

So basically you’re just giving your own opinion without any facts. Got it.

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doorbell2021@reddit

There are situations where a t&g/balked landing isn't going to get you to the MAP for obstacle clearance, because you may not get high enough, fast enough, or it may be behind you. In those situations, absent instructions from ATC, and in IMC, you need to be familiar with the terrain and ODP, if there is one. This isn't an opinion, it is the way the system is designed to work.

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kmac6821@reddit

Go back and reread my original statement.

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Spark_Ignition_6@reddit

I think you're confusing a missed approach with climbout instructions following a practice approach.

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kmac6821@reddit

They would be the same in this scenario, would they not? The climb-out becomes the missed approach instructions prior to the commencement of the approach. Otherwise what is the controller expecting you to do if you do go missed?

I’m not talking about the charted missed approach instructions. I think I’ve flown those maybe one time in my career.

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doorbell2021@reddit

OP was on an IFR flight plan, not doing practice approaches, so that is irrelevant.

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kmac6821@reddit

You absolutely can do practices approaches on an IFR, including T&Gs. I’ve done it probably a hundred times! How do you think we knock out both approaches and landings?

Do you have much instrument experience? I’m wondering who has led you so far astray.

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doorbell2021@reddit

I'm not going to get into an argument with you. I practice the same as I fly. I don't practice going missed under IFR from below or past the MAP. It builds bad habits. If I'm going to do that it will be as a VFR practice approach. Regardless of my experience, which isn't insignificant, the CFII I fly with is a 30,000+ hr airline ATP, who is also an active CFII, and the rules I set for myself are the rules he uses in his own flying.

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kmac6821@reddit

That’s great man. But don’t be so fast to judge others who do it just as safely. There is nothing wrong with being IFR and shooting practice approaches in VMC. Just because you’re not experienced in that (and nor is your airline CFII), don’t judge others who are (i.e., just about every military flyer).

If you can’t separate IFR and IMC in your head, then you’re better off doing what you do.

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da_speed_O_sound@reddit

This.

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tingtongtravels@reddit

Except you’re visual and responsible for your own obstacle protection. No different than take off from that runway unless there is some ODP

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akav8r@reddit

I'll have to see if I can find the interpretation that came down to our facility. It's been years..... and largely ignored.....

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tingtongtravels@reddit

Oh I’m certainly not saying what the OP is wanting to do is right or wrong in the eyes of ATC- I’m just saying from a let’s get a landing practice (so we can morally say we did a XC flight) in and then some button pushing practice it’s a pretty straightforward process. Especially on a VFR day.

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DeVoniiX@reddit (OP)

Thanks for this discussion. This was my first instrument xc and I need those xc hours. I just want to make sure that I am doing it, not only in the right way, but also in a way that I don't make it harder for atc unknowingly. It was a very VMC day today and both airports are uncontrolled if that helps the discussion.

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Why-R-People-So-Dumb@reddit

Well continuing that discussion it's not really about what's safe for you, in this situation and knowing your limits and avoiding your own obstacles. You have to remember, when you file IFR you are part of the system, and you have to follow the procedures for that system. ATC can't direct you to follow the missed approach procedures because there is not guaranteed obstacle clearance below MDA, so you have to be flying on own nav to do that.

What I did during my training was file two plans, cancel one at the MDA and state my intentions to touch and go, conduct VFR flight following the missed approach procedures and will pick up my second flight plan at that time.

With an uncontrolled airport, that adds another layer here, ATC is holding that airspace for you so if you don't need the actual separation by ATC because it's a severe clear day, it's common courtesy to cancel before you exit the E, then pickup your second flight plan when you get back above the G and into E again.

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DeVoniiX@reddit (OP)

That makes sense. But after taking a look at other comments, I am starting to think about another situation specifically at an uncontrolled airport (in IMC) in which you descend past MDA/DA when the runway environment is in sight. Then something that makes the landing unsafe occurs and you decide a go around is required. What do you do then? Being below MDA/DA doesn't guarantee you obstacle clearance but what procedure would you fly?

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Why-R-People-So-Dumb@reddit

That's going to be determined based on your aircraft's capabilities and the options the particular airport would offer you.

Try to establish contact with ATC, if you are before the MAP and can reintercept missed approach procedure safely then consider a circle or normal climb back up to DA/DH/MTA, if you are after MAP again follow whatever your local limits are to climb or circle climb to MTA, follow a published departure procedure that would give you adequate obstacle clearance, of course you can also maintain visual flight and reattempt the landing.

You should be briefing what your safe options are before you approach. My home base is untowered and has no approach or departure so this is a case where I would have to break out by MVA and if I couldn't land, I'd stay visual and attempt to land again (remember visual doesn't mean VFR, you don't have to have clearance to the clouds, just be able to fly with reference to the ground), and if I couldn't still I would climb to MVA and attempt to establish contact with ATC, if I couldn't get ATC I would circle climb to OROCA then try and keep trying ATC because my alternate is a nearby C and I would need vectors/clearance to pick up that approach.

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mountainbrew46@reddit

Who says it’s visual? You can shoot an approach to minimums and do a touch and go under part 91.

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doorbell2021@reddit

That isn't how missed approaches work.

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TheGacAttack@reddit

If you lose your visual references after the MAP, and you've already continued the landing attempt past the MAP... are you suggesting that you can't go missed except exactly at the MAP?

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mduell@reddit

File two flightplans and pick up the second one in the air after your T&G.

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akav8r@reddit

Technically, we've been told we can't allow people to do a touch and go and then fly the published missed. You're a departure at that point, and need to be put on an approved departure routing... using a DVA, ODP, etc...

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New-IncognitoWindow@reddit

That’s stupid

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spacecadet2399@reddit

I've had both situations at the same airport and the confusion stemming from it probably came close to resulting in a PD. When I first started instructing, I had filed 3 separate flight plans for a round trip with touch and goes at two airports, and informed the controllers along the way that I planned to close one flight plan and open the next as I went along at each airport. This is how my instructors always did it. Well, my first time doing it as a CFII, the controller gave us a set of departure instructions to do after our touch and go. I went back the next day and did the same thing at the same airport with another student and another controller, and she just didn't say anything. Just cleared us for the approach, and said call her on the other side.

Since I was a little saturated as a CFII both instructing and making sure my student wasn't doing something that was going to either kill us or get us in trouble (and he was hand-flying a DME arc, so that took some concentration from both of us), it wasn't until we'd already switched to CTAF that I realized we'd had no instructions from the controller as to what to do after our touch and go. I kind of assumed that meant she was cancelling our IFR on her own (since that airport was the end of that flight plan, we were landing and she knew the entire plan) and that we'd be VFR on departure until we called her back. So I just did what the controller the previous day had told us to do (which put us on our way to our next destination) and then called the current controller back to open our next flight plan.

Well, she was kinda mad and was like "wait, *where* are you?" I immediately asked "did you want us to fly the published missed?" And she replied "well, you have to." I apologized for the misunderstanding, explained why I had done what I'd done and she let us go. Luckily this was in the middle of the desert on a hot afternoon and nobody else was within 200 miles of us.

She knew we were doing a touch and go, not a missed approach. So I did think it was weird that she'd just assume we'd do the published missed. But obviously I should have questioned not having any instructions at all, and not assumed myself we'd just be VFR at that point. I still think about it sometimes and wonder whether she was right that we "had to" do the published missed on a touch and go. You're saying you've been told you can't even allow this, and she told us we couldn't have done anything else. So maybe she was just not fully up on the procedures... but anyway, just an example of the fact that this does happen.

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mountainbrew46@reddit

Yeah always scratched my head at that one too. I’ve gotten the instruction before and followed it, but didn’t seem right. Published missed starts at the DA or MAP which is behind me.. and a published missed isn’t a departure method.

Legitimate safety issue? Meh, not in 99% of applications. Like you said, I’m sure there’s never bad intent. One of those things that makes sense if you don’t think about it lol

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DeVoniiX@reddit (OP)

That makes a lot of sense. I will keep this in mind for future flights, thanks :)

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Easy-Trouble7885@reddit

Never had problems filing and putting on remarks RMK/ TOUCH AND GO AT KXXX. It could help adding maybe 0.3 to the total of you flight to compensate for that but it shouldn't be a problem.

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randombrain@reddit

1) Don't say Kilo at all, don't write Kilo at all, it isn't necessary at all. Stop it.

2) Space is at an extreme premium in remarks. Something like "TCH N GO XXX" would be better.

3) Unfortunately, depending on a few different specifics, we might not see your remarks in the first place. Apologies in advance if we ask you things that are already in them.

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Easy-Trouble7885@reddit

I'm gonna use kil even more now lmao

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Wrangler_0f_chaos@reddit

In Florida it's common to add PLA in your flight plan notes. (Practice Low Approach)

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kristephe@reddit

Hopefully someone has an Opposing Bases episode to refer to as well, but I think if you are going on a XC, it's smart to do two flight plans and I think a safer bet than not. I'm in the NW with a complicated system of facilities (Victoria BC is the approach facility for my home airport BLI but Whidbey Approach is very close and manages quite a few of our close, non XC destinations, and Seattle Approach handles anything that's a XC). So you'll be possibly leaving quite a few sectors on a XC, and I'm guessing it's more work on the controller to have you a round robin than to just have a separate strip for your return. You could just tell them you have another flight plan on file and see how they want to handle it. In PDX area, they were very accommodating for round robin flights in their airspace, but that hasn't been the norm now that I moved.

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randombrain@reddit

I'm not in that area of the country, but I am near a Center boundary. My experience is that if you cross into another Center, and then come back into the first one again, the computer gets confused more often than not.

You should be all underneath Seattle Center in your case, but going back and forth between different approach facilities could also be an issue.

Then you have the fact that you're talking to Canadian ATC for part of the flight... yeah, separate flight plans is probably safer.

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DeVoniiX@reddit (OP)

I fly in the PNW as well. Departed KPWT and was headed up to FHR. Whidbey let us know about it today. Normally for my practice approaches, Ill file KOLM, KTIW, KSHN, and KPWT on the same plan with Seattle. I didn't think it would be any different for this xc. Thanks for the great and local insight!

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standardtemp2383@reddit

why would you do the missed after a touch and go. your instructor is setting you up for failure

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hzjohn@reddit

Touch and go on IFR flight sounds weird…

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cficole@reddit

Routine on a training flight, or an IPC.

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Charming_Function526@reddit

I’ve heard from controllers it helps to put in remarks what intentions are, touch and go, low approach, full stop etc. Helps them know what to expect, but doesn’t sound like you guys did it wrong.

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DeVoniiX@reddit (OP)

That makes sense, I'll implement it as common practice. I have only stated intentions early on initial contact or if I were asked of my intentions.

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Cobbler-Boring@reddit

In special notes of the Flight Plan if your using foreflight write planned missed or requesting alternate missed. Let them know what your doing as soon as you get in contact with approach

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FBoondoggle@reddit

I have had variants on this experience. When I fly to a nearby field controlled by the Center, I don't even bother to file past the first stop. I just tell the person who clears me for the approach that I want to go missed then get another approach or go back to my home field or whatever and they give it to me. On the other hand when I recently went to a field controlled by the TRACON, (going missed) they were annoyed that I didn't file for the return. My suspicion is that this has to do with the effort required for atc to create a new plan with the software they use - ERAM (center, easy) vs STARS (tracon, impossible, they have to walk over to a separate specialized FDIO terminal).

I'm not sure this explains your case, but maybe they normally have someone handling the data entry but didn't on this occasion, and your plan dropped out of the system for some reason.

Shout out to the OB podcast which covers weird idiosyncrasies (or as my autocomplete wanted to say, idiocies) like this of the NAS. They also talked at some point about how your plan will disappear from the system if you are on the ground for some interval.

This is all vague surmise, but one thing the podcast definitely made me conscious of was how deeply crappy the tracon software is, and what a hassle it creates for dealing with nonstandard tasks.

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Mispelled-This@reddit

Two flight plans is better practice for you.

But if you do want to do one FP, file something like KABC/D0+15 to account for a delay en route.

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indecision_killingme@reddit

I don’t file round robins, makes thing easier and students need the practice with clearances anyway.

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PureRiffery900@reddit

Here in NZ where I trained we always filed 2 flight plans even if it’s just a missed approach and we never touch the ground.

I guess they like it as it helps with knowing onwards time etc. and when to expect you

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DanThePilot_Man@reddit

I’m not ATC - but I’ve never had an issue filing round robin. I’ve done it time and time again for long flights >600nm round trip

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37785@reddit

I'll file the outbound leg and the return leg separately. If I'm not planning on stopping at my first destination, I'll file my expected departure time for my return a few minutes after my estimated arrival. Even if I'm off by a few minutes, the controllers don't care. If anything, let the approach controller know to expect you back shortly on a new, pre-filed flight plan.

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

Hello everyone! I ran into what seemed to be a bit of a peculiar situation with an approach controller today. I filed a round robin flight plan to knock out some cross country time with my instructor. Our intention was to head to an airport that meets XC requirements. We wanted to perform a touch and go then fly the published missed then proceed back to our home airport. We've done it plenty of times before with the surrounding airports and filed the same way. However this time, the controller let us know that we have to file two flight plans since we were landing to account for the delay. They seemed a bit annoyed with it but the previous controllers before we reached their sector didn't mention it at all.

My guess is that our intention to perform a touch and go was communicated as a full stop on the handoffs because I am not really sure how a touch and go that goes straight into the missed would be different if we just flew a low approach instead. My instructor said this was the first time she has been told this and some other instructors from my school thought it was odd too.

I suppose my question would be more appropriate for controllers but is it more convenient to have a round robin flight plan or would you prefer pilots filing two flight plans for these type of trips?

For other instrument pilots/students, how do you guys file?

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