Technology Bad? Why?
Posted by Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 174 comments
I often read in this sub people saying they prefer a lack of modern technology. They dislike touch screens, automatic this, digital that, etc. I'm just curious to really understand why. Is it the technology itself, that people don't understand it, that it's hard to repair, or that it's poorly implemented?
Maybe a bit about myself for context, I'm older, and spent many years working on old school hot rods and muscle cars for a living. I can just about rebuild a 1st gen Camaro with my eyes closed, am a master with Holley and Weber carbs, tuning by ear and vacuum gauge, etc. But when EFI became a thing, most of all decent aftermarket EFI, I embraced it because it's better. And today I dig touch screens, CAN-bus, doing a bunch with a lap-top and tablet, etc. I really dig the tech in my modern-ish car.
So from my background I don't completely understand the technology bad comments I see in here all the time. Yes of course I can understand how there's been some really bad implementation of some new technology. Some of it really sucked to deal with, most of all when the technology was new. Maybe there's just a lot of that going on that I don't see and my particular car is a unicorn in how good it is. I don't really deal much anymore with cars I don't own.
Take the touch screen thing. Yeah not having buttons or knobs for many things could really suck, I think I'd hate a Tesla. But a touch screen can do more than just about any amount of buttons could do. It'd take hundreds of buttons and extra displays to provide all the options and information that one screen can offer. I can display dozens of extra gauges, and select options for how a great many systems work. No factory car without a touchscreen could do so much. It'd take one of those dashes like you see in custom semi trucks to have so much information and control without a touchscreen.
Or CAN-bus, my car as 19 computer modules all connected by CAN-bus. And yeah at first it's like WTF, why does my steering column need it's own computer module. Then you learn all the handy stuff that can be done. No more climbing under the dash and pulling things apart to probe wires. Everything is monitored by the module and is wicked easy to just pull it up on my phone and see everything. How can anyone not appreciate that?
beard-e-lox@reddit
Ive worked on a 2019 chevy truck that wouldnt start intermittently because the headlamp was cracked. But sure, keep tying circuits together for dumb š©
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I think I recall seeing a youtube vid about something like that.
beard-e-lox@reddit
The headlamp circuit was back feeding into one of the ignition circuits due to moisture. We used to joke about that type of š© but now its no laughing matter š lol
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
This isn't really a new thing. back in the day some vehicles would have issues where the alternator would back feed the ignition under some conditions and the engine couldn't be turned off.
beard-e-lox@reddit
The alternator feeds all of the ignition circuits; thats very different than a headlight shorting the power feeds to the powertrain modules. Now cars can be located at all times and disabled by the police state. Teslas can repo themselves. Toyota is collecting personal data and selling it. Subaru makes you pay for remote start and then it is disabled at 36k or so and you have to pay a subscription to use the feature you already bought. If this is what technologyās price is, ill stick with my mid nineties and early 2k pickups šš»
Gunk_Olgidar@reddit
When fancy electronic gizmos break, they're expensive to repair. If the car is more than 10 years old, you may not be able to get replacement parts.
$3-4k for a radar module in a 1st gen Genesis sedan and that's not the worst one. Easy to damage, expensive to replace.
30 inch long screens in Cadillacs ... Do you really think GM is going to change and go completely against their financial incentive and decades of behavior to have their tier1 suppliers keep these things in stock in 2035?
2025 Lexus ES300h won't tell you what maintenance is due. It just says "Maintenance due, contact dealer at phone #######." Which is stupid because you need to know what maintenance service to book when you go to the dealer website. Too much thinking for the customer, not enough respect for the customer.
...force you to take your eyes off the road to use them. Not brilliant for safety. Not my driving style.
When the rear view camera takes a dump in your Honda Odyssey and the car bricks no-crank-no-start because the CANbus is jammed by noise from the bad camera, you'll understand why.
Yes, it's a thing.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
That's an issue of the auto industry in general not just these technology items. For more and more cars getting replacement for even wear items items like shocks and steering racks are getting harder and harder for unique models. The only real cure is owning a vehicle with high commonality and strong aftermarket.
Nor is this really a unique or new issue. It's not easy finding parts for my Studebaker either, age + uniqueness = difficultly, regardless of the level of technology. Not saying the point is invalid, it just isn't unique to modern technology. Gauge units for example have been printed circuit boards since the 80s. Even my carbureted old Ford pickup has a printed circuit board gauge unit.
Sure having to go through multiple menus while driving is bad UI. I said something similar in the post. But people blow this out of proportion, a quick glance at the screen is no worse than a quick glance at the passenger side mirror. Do you crash every time you look at your passenger side mirror, is it too distracting?
I don't understand how a rear view camera could "jam" CAN-bus, most of all the high speed CAN-bus that would "brick" a vehicle. If Honda is trying to send a video signal on the high speed CAN-bus that's just malpractice.
Gunk_Olgidar@reddit
Your preconceived prejudices are impairing your ability to comprehend reality. This issue will fade with age and experience.
Good luck. Drive safe.
nonotburton@reddit
After reading through the posts, I think some lines need to be drawn.
When people are talking about "tech" they are generally talking about is touchscreens in the car. Out in the world this would include phones, but inside the car, they are mostly talking about touchscreens. Some of the mechanically inclined people are also talking about the assorted protections/improvements put in a cars ECU/assorted computers that prevent them from doing tasks that feel like they should be simple. Like changing a modern bmw battery. Should be simple, but it's not, even though the changes to the process mean the battery lasts longer.
They are not talking about safety equipment. No one talking about tech in cars is complaining about safety equipment, except maybe in some very nice situations.
In aviation it is a well documented effect that aircraft operators need to be able to find switches by touch, so they don't have to take their attention away from what's going on around them. It's a field of study called human factors. The use of touch screens is limited in the cockpit to certain types of functions, and really only for use by the co-pilot (or whichever pilot is not actively flying the aircraft). There are entire regulations that cover this stuff. This is the thing people are actually complaining about. Common functions that are used while driving are being migrated into the touchscreen (radio, AC are the most common offenders). These are things that people are accustomed to changing while they are driving, often without a copilot. As far as I know, there is no corresponding regulation for human factors for ground transportation, probably because they don't have enough deaths and injuries that they can prove are directly related to touch screen distractions (for standard car operations).
nips927@reddit
Have you ever worked on modern cars or trucks?
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Mine
PelicanFrostyNips@reddit
Everyone prefers a different level of technology in their cars. I canāt imagine anyone wishing for carbs, but I can imagine a lot of people wishing away CANBUS.
Above all following examples, more technology means more things to break. More failure points. More complex and expensive repairs.
I donāt mind a screen but I donāt want my infotainment screaming at me that it canāt communicate with the ECU when I swap the engine and install a Haltech/Megasquirt. The only things inside the cabin that I want connected to the engine are the gauges, pedals, and ignition. Thatās it.
I donāt want to pay 700 bucks for an MHD license to flash a BMW to preset levels. I want open source software where I can adjust my own fuel and timing maps and learn what each change does.
I donāt want the manufacturer to remotely access my car and disable functionality because I donāt pay a subscription.
I donāt want a computer assuming what I āmeantā to do. If I press the accelerator and brake pedals at the same time, itās because I want to spool up my turbo for a rolling launch. I donāt need a computer thinking āthat must be a mistake. Surely the driver meant to slow down. I will ignore the accelerator input and not rev the engineā
Another reason is good technology comes bundled together with bad technology. For example with BMWs, variable valve timing, aluminum blocks, and electronic throttle all showed up at about the same time. The M50TU introduced VANOS and still had cable throttle but an iron block. M52TU got an aluminum block but also an electronic throttle (although with a cable backup)
Newer engines have improvements. N52 VANOS is better and simpler and more reliable than M54. N55 has greatly simplified oil passages in the head compared to the N54. B58 may have the timing chain at the flywheel but many say it is a strong and reliable engine. I would love a B58 with cable throttle and port injection, no Valvetronic and the ECU off CANbus.
People say 2010 was the last good year for Chevy Small Blocks since after that they started adding nonsense like cylinder deactivation, variable lifters, fuel injection, etc.
Good technology: hydraulic lifters. No more valve lash adjustment with feeler gauges.
Bad technology: replacing dipstick with electronic oil level sensor. Canāt see how much oil is in the engine without turning it over. Possibility of spinning bearings before I even know itās empty. Stupid.
nips927@reddit
Just yours? If you answer yes as just yours you have zero idea the electrical nightmare that is in every single car, truck, semi truck, construction equipment. You only see a small tiny tiny little bit of the nightmare. Old cars were easy, because everything either was connected to a fuse box or straight to the battery. Most old cars and I'm talking older than 80s needed a handful of wires to operate. Now you literally have dozens of modules, a Peterbilt 579 with a paccar mx13 has like 15-20 modules, half of them are useless. If one component fails or the wiring shorts out in the harness for example it brings the entire network down, meaning truck don't run. If the baud rate isnt correct it goes haywire and refuses to run.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
You're not really telling me anything new, I know old cars. My daily car has 19 modules and I'm a trucker these days. So far I only drive trucks owned by others, but I do have some scanner stuff, and was stranded in a blizzard once when everything failed.
That said people romanticize the old stuff, it's not like they never had issues. When there's only a handful of wires it also means all those wires are carrying high levels of important current. There's less relays to isolate currents and one short means you're stranded.
I think we forget how like many of us with old DSII Fords would carry around spare ignition modules. Or how often starter solenoids would die, or how sensitive distributors are to water, etc.
My simplest rig is a mechanical diesel, just need to keep fuel in it and one wire energized for it to keep running. Not even that if I mod the shut off solenoid. Still need most of the rest of it to start it and keep it really drivable though. And just like many modern features, if the radio dies it doesn't mean I can't make it home.
nips927@reddit
Your a clown dude you really are your a driver who thinks he's a mechanic but has zero clue. Just because you have a fancy scanner doesn't you know what the information means. Efi has been around since the 50s/60s. Gm and Ford both made an attempt but technology wasn't ready yet
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
You're*
AllLivesMatterLol@reddit
You're definitely a tesla driver š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£
nips927@reddit
Up until this time, the fuel injection systems had used a mechanical control system. In 1957, the American Bendix Electrojector system was introduced, which used analogue electronics for the control system. The Electrojector was intended to be available for the Rambler Rebel mid-size car, however reliability problems meant that the fuel injection option was not offered.[45][46][47][48][49] In 1958, the Chrysler 300D, DeSoto Adventurer, Dodge D-500 and Plymouth Fury offered the Electrojector system, becoming the first cars known to use an electronic fuel injection (EFI) system.[50]
The Electrojector patents were subsequently sold to Bosch, who developed the Electrojector into the Bosch D-Jetronic.[51] The D-Jetronic was produced from 1967-1976 and first used on the VW 1600TL/E. The system was a speed/density system, using engine speed and intake manifold air density to calculate the amount of fuel to be injected. In 1974, Bosch introduced the K-Jetronic system, which used a continuous flow of fuel from the injectors (rather than the pulsed flow of the D-Jetronic system). K-Jetronic was a mechanical injection system, using a plunger actuated by the intake manifold pressure which then controlled the fuel flow to the injectors.[52]
Fuel injection - Wikipedia https://share.google/glzKAUa9NCDtleoQM
bimmervschevy@reddit
If I canāt physically feel where a climate control temperature knob/switch is, or where my volume knob is, or where my cruise control settings are on the wheel, that means I have to divert my eyes from the road and look at the screen/capacitive buttons. If I wanted to look at something other than the road while driving, I would carpool.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
With automatic climate control there's no need to constantly adjust it.
Acrobatic-Hunt618@reddit
It just adds more shit to go wrong. Id rather adjust a carb than fiddle with a fucking computer that doesnāt actually know whatās wrong half the time.
Western-Bug-2873@reddit
This one always makes me LOL no matter how many times I hear it. "Building PCs" has no relevance to troubleshooting the electronics on a car, where you need to have actual knowledge of electrical theory and know how to use test equipment. It's a bit more involved than just plugging a new RAM chip into a circuit board.
And also, a computer never knows what is wrong. It might provide a trouble code, which is a general starting point for a skilled person to perform a diagnosis. A computer is just a dumb machine that only does what it is programmed to do. The "self diagnosing" car is a popular myth for people who don't actually know anything about control systems.Ā
HeavyDutyForks@reddit
What options and info do you really need when driving your car? Climate control and music are the only two main things that I change on my day to day drives. Beyond coolant temp, speed, fuel level, and RPM what other info is really pertinent to me as I drive to work? They put touch screens into cars because they put way too much extra into them. They created a problem and then created a shitty solution to it
I agree with CANBUS and the technology that makes the car run better plus easier diagnostics. If I want more info displayed I will plug into the OBD-II port and monitor whatever info I need.
NoEmu5969@reddit
I like aircraft instrument systems like JPI that provide exhaust temp for each header individually, cylinder head temps, fuel and oil pressure and temperaturesā¦ it makes troubleshooting much easier.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
When I tuned carbs for a living I'd sometimes install temperature probes in each header tube. Part of the reason why I really like Weber carbs was being able to tune each cylinder.
Today though modern systems can do it with the oxygen sensors by correlating the sensor readings with engine timing.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
How can there be such a thing as "too much extra"? I'll take all the options and information I can get.
Day to day drives, sure about the only thing I'm regularly selecting in the touchscreen is my seat heating/cooling. The rest I interreact with regularly while driving is a button/dial. I usually put it on a screen that displays more information so I can see it at a glance. There's a fair bit of information I like to keep an eye on, the status of my AWD, engine and transmission oil temps, gear, etc.
But while driving is less of a point than all the setup menu options. Selecting my DRLs, how blind spot detection reacts, if I want rain sensing wipers working, or auto high beams, steering headlights, traction control settings, or any of dozens of other options. For example I don't have the dings and dongs many complain about because I've turned them all off.
HeavyDutyForks@reddit
What are you selecting on your DRLs? They should always be on until the headlights are turned on
I've never owned a car with any of those features, but I've driven plenty of cars like what you're describing. I spent a week on a company trip driving my boss's top of the line BMW. The interface was a mess, he barely knew how any of that stuff worked. The parking aids were way too sensitive and constantly vibrating/beeping at me even though I had plenty of room and had to park in tight spaces. Couldn't shut any of it off because all the options were buried in menus that I wasn't going to sort through every time I turned the car off
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I can select to not have DRLs and with a little aftermarket software which lights are activated by the DRLs. Personally I really dislike white light DRLs so I have them set to turn on the front bright amber lights. Or if I choose can push a button in the touch screen to turn them off.
That just sounds like poor implementation.
AccurateIt@reddit
Dude, you can't see the DRLs when driving. They are a safety feature; do not shut them off unless you are stationary for photos or something similar.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
DRLs are a shit "safety feature".
https://ww2.motorists.org/issues/dlr/reasons-to-oppose/
AccurateIt@reddit
Every single one of those "Facts" is bogus.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
LOL, ok, if you say so.
nonotburton@reddit
There are no actual references, except an article written by the same website. If any of that was real it would come out of at the very least another magazine. It claims to be a literature review with no references
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
That website used to link some DRL studies, here's some https://www.lightsout.org/studies.html
p-angloss@reddit
the problem of last 10 yrs is much is software driven, and software is mostly proprietary and cannot be easily dealt with unless you are a professional with access to official dealers network.
I think the sweet spot was up to 2010-2015 after that cars started to become packed with a lot of technology that adds complexity but does little to improve the funcional aspect of the vehicle. electric adjustments for everything, even things easier done manually, electronic parking brakes, hosts of driver assistance features etc....)
Acrobatic-Hunt618@reddit
Oil pressure
mmmmmyee@reddit
Coolant temp/oil temps
Transmission temps if trailering/extreme temps
cormack_gv@reddit
You are conflating "technology" with "touch screen controls." Touch screen controls are awful, plain and simple. Knobs and dials are ergonomically better.
They disallow texting and driving, but working the touchscreen menus on many cars is just about as distracting.
phaedrux_pharo@reddit
OP mentioned touch screens, EFI, and CAN-bus. Touch screens is one of three examples, and even those three aren't necessarily exhaustive. They're not conflating anything.
cormack_gv@reddit
Yes, OP wants to play with a gaming console. I want to drive, at least while I'm driving.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
What is "driving" except operating technology.
Envowner@reddit
When Iām eating a bowl of cereal Iām using a Spoon, which is technology so thatās kinda like driving a car because Iām operating technology!
azuth89@reddit
For a specific point driving is, or was, "operating technology I don't need to look at".Ā
The need to look at touchscreens to ensure you're hitting the right spot builds into the car a distraction we've been fighting on phones for years.Ā
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
That aspect I very much agree with. But that's not against the tech, it's just poor implementation.
azuth89@reddit
UX IS technology, and when it is consistently bad then it is fair to criticize it under that label.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
But some do it well, so it's just that brand or whatever not the tech itself.
azuth89@reddit
And if its most brands, and only some or a couple do it well, then the general "modern technology" is bad.Ā
Exceptions don't get to define the norm.
cormack_gv@reddit
Now you're moving the goalposts from "modern technology" to just "technology." Arguably, automobiles are technology, but not particularly modern. So driving is operating technology, but not necessarily modern technology.
Some modern technology improves the driving experience, and some is a distraction/obstacle.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Power steering and power brakes modern technology that distracted from the driving feel. There's still vehicles made without them, is that what you have?
cormack_gv@reddit
When they were first introduced, for sure they distracted. Now, not so much. Automatic transmissions -- the jury is still out. A/C and temperature control are unintrusive comfort items.
You're still conflating driving aids (whether effective or not) with computer games.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
They still make the brakes and steering numb.
How am I "conflating driving aids with computer games"?
cormack_gv@reddit
None of the driving aids you've mentioned have anything to do with your statement "And today I dig touch screens, CAN-bus, doing a bunch with a lap-top and tablet, etc. I really dig the tech in my modern-ish car."
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
You need me to mention every advancement in technology between the 30s and now? When someone says A-Z do you complain that they didn't mention M.
cormack_gv@reddit
As I said, you've conflated driving/drivability aids with digital distractions. You claim that somebody on Reddit says they hate technology in general, regardless of whether it is EFI or a six-deep touchscreen menu to turn on the wipers.
Gubbtratt1@reddit
What car made today doesn't have power brakes?
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Nothing street legal with 4 wheels sold in the US due to regulation have to have power brakes. But some of those 3 wheel things, cars sold in other countries, and cars sold as race cars.
Yes the question was a bit of hyperbole.
Chivako@reddit
Imagine driving while trying to operate a tablet. It's illegal to use a phone since it's dangerous, but most touchscreens are just as bad. Basic features that you use everyday should be easily accessible. Not hidden under menus.
Minimum-Sleep7471@reddit
Because it tends to break and I like vehicles that are easier to fix such things
deathbygalena@reddit
Same reason some people are not wanting grand crazy complication on a wrist watch or an Apple Watch. Sometimes less is more. Less complicated. Less to fix.
ReallySmallWeenus@reddit
Anti technology sentiment is not new. You seem to be disillusioned about how resistant most auto enthusiasts were to fuel injection. I still know people who insist these computers are making cars unreliable and impossible to work on, though their numbers are down.
That said, most grievances I agree with now is to the over reliance on touch screens. In a car I am familiar with, I shouldnāt need to remove my eyes from the road to look at a screen change most things I would want to do while driving; that includes, at a bare minimum, adjust climate control, adjust windows, change radio volume, change the channel/track on the radio, and actual driving related things. When you put this stuff on a touch screen, you need to look to see that you are touching the right spot. What should be easy is now a little more tedious, bot to mention a little more dangerous.
Touch screens have a huge benefit. Apple CarPlay/Android Auto is probably the best advancement in car utility since keyless entry. But putting EVERYTHING in a menu on the touch screen sucks.
Also, some vehicles are supposedly starting to play ads on the infotainment screen.
teachthisdognewtrick@reddit
When the tech fails, 10-15 years later there are no new parts for it. You have a brick. Dealing with this on an 03 Acura. Everything is run thru the entertainment system. DVD drive died, part no longer available. You can throw the dice on a rebuilt, with no warranty or guarantee. System failure takes out fan speed control, air conditioner, back up camera and a ton of secondary data.
Notansfwprofile@reddit
Because itās another to go wrong that you canāt fix. Donāt have think too hard about it.
Schoolofhardknocks44@reddit
For me the issue with some of the modern technology is the cost of repair, and the interconnectivity of certain systems.Ā My wife's 2017 Hyundai Santa fe was a thorn in my side for years. Had problems with the head unit/ touchscreen system. It would randomly short and shut down.Ā Now because the climate control system was routed through that, everytime it would act up, no ability to see or control the system.Ā
I took it to two different dealers multiple times, and neither of them could figure out why it was doing it. I loved being told they couldn't duplicate it, and not being 10 miles down the road from the dealership and having it act up. I was told they could try and replace the unit and maybe it would fix it. At $4800 plus labor for a maybe though... thats a hard pill to swallow. When the motor started eating oil and they wouldn't replace it it was the final straw for me.Ā It will be the last Hyundai/Kia for me.
New_Line4049@reddit
Ok, so I think the problem can be the implementation. We often see technology that fixes non existent problems while creating others. Take a touch screen. I generally like touch screen stuff, you're right, it can allow you to fit more options into the available space by varying the functionality of buttons based on what is displayed. But.... I dont NEED all those options while driving. I only need a few key functions, basic music controls, climate controls, window controls, that's about it while the vehicle is moving. What we've done is take all those key controls of the simple buttons and hidden them within menus on a touchscreen. In my touchscreenless (ish) car I can change the temperature by feel and muscle memory, I know where yhe temperature dial is and can put a hand on it without ever taking my eyes off the road. On a touch screen its not consistently there, so I have to look at the screen, navigate from whatever page I was on, say navigation, to the page with the temperature controls, adjust them, then navigate back, all while having to share my attention between the road and the screen. Add to that the fact touchscreens aren't tactile, I get no feedback other than visual that my hand is on the right control or that its responding.
Automatic dipping headlights. In theory these are a wonderful thing, in practice they're dog shit and dont respond fast enough to avoid dazzling other road users, but of course those with them feel secure that its automatic and they therefore dont need to do anything to save their fellow drivers retinas.
Lane assist is theoretically awesome, in practice its often inconsistent. That can be distracting, confusing and down right annoying.
Some technology will just incessantly nag you and be a nuisance, like the new EU speed limiters. Now people will argue you shouldn't be going over the speed limit, very true, but irrelevant as these things have been known to misinterpret the speed limit.
evoltap@reddit
To add on to your comment about touchscreens not being tactile so you have no feedback, itās also inferior for being in something thatās moving. You glance at the screen to see where the virtual bottom is (eyes off the road), you look back at the road and push the virtual buttonā¦but you hit a dip or bump and this causes you to miss the buttonā¦.now you start all over again having to take your eyes off the road. A tactile control can be operated by muscle memory without taking eyes off the road.
New_Line4049@reddit
Very true also
Suitable_Boat_8739@reddit
Add on to lane assist - Im convinced they make electric power steering even worse because larger motors are required to fight the driver vs work with them.
New_Line4049@reddit
All very true
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I generally agree.
Though on the climate stuff I find kind of backwards. Even though I have buttons/dials I don't touch my climate control much, it's automatic.
Auto dipping headlights I very much agree, which is why even though I have the feature I don't turn it on.
Never driven a vehicle with lane assist that I liked, I found it to largely just be a distraction that caused more issues due to how many mistakes it made. Same with any automatic braking function. Goes back to the end of my post, that I dislike anything that takes control away from the owner/driver.
The EU speed things would drive me nuts. I go beyond what you said as I disagree with most speed limits and am a habitual speeder.
Icy_Nose_2651@reddit
its all just more useless unnecessary crap that can and will break, and cost you big bucks to replace. Cars today are throwaways, they arenāt meant to last. How many people have 20 year old phones?
Holiday-Poet-406@reddit
Built in obsolecence, how often does your phone need replacing? A car should have a 25+year lifespan if its maintained
greenpowerman99@reddit
A lot of modern auto electronics are not user serviceable, beyond replacing the entire unit, and that is not only expensive, but it's boring and uninformative.
There is no gradual failure as a part wears out, warning you of imminent repairs. No, most electronics work until they suddenly stop working, stranding you.
GhostriderFlyBy@reddit
One significant factor that I think you might appreciate is the dramatic increase in cost that comes with new technology. A new bumper for my old E46 is a few hundred bucks, but a new bumper loaded with sensors is in the thousands and has to be calibrated by the dealer. It makes DIY a much bigger headache.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Sure that's an aspect but kind of a moot one. A bumper without functioning sensors isn't a big deal, the sensors just don't work, and so it's no worse than your older car. The sensors aren't needed to drive.
Also some of that is a BMW issue, not really a technology issue. It's BMW that makes it have to be calibrated by the dealer.
GhostriderFlyBy@reddit
It's not a matter of functioning vs non-functioning. If you want a bumper for a 2025 3 series, it's going to have sensors and be more expensive. It would probably be difficult to find one that was divorced of those parts.
It kind of seems like you're not really asking a question you want answers to, you're just looking for argument.
LivingGhost371@reddit
You're cold so you want more air. Which is easier to do. And less distracting while you're driving?
A) Reach over and turn twist a huge, , backlit, clearly labeled knob that does the same thing and is in the same location every time you're in the car. Then twist another knob to turn up the volume on the radio.
B) Go into the touchscreen. Read the text and select climated control. Read the text and tap on a tiny arrow to increase the temprature. Exit out and go to a different menu with tiny text in the touch screen because now the radio is too soft with the additional air blowing.
BelieveItOrNotCalls@reddit
Option B gave me anxiety just reading it
Cranks_No_Start@reddit
My F150 climate controls are peak 3 knobs.Ā What do you want. Where do you want it and how much of it do you want. All that I need and nothing else.Ā
FindingUsernamesSuck@reddit
I think you've answered most of your own question.
There's good technology, bad technology, and technology I just don't prefer.
I support most safety technologies. Crash structures, airbags, stability control, predictive braking systems etc. They add weight which is bad, but I would say the good significantly outweighs the bad.
The infotainment stuff is largely personal preference. Buttons vs screen for some controls. If I have to learn a new way to achieve the same result as the old way, that's generally a negative to me. HVAC controls behind menus, less than straightforward music connectivity, etc.
Then there's the technology that just gives me the heebie-jeebies. I have no interest for in-car ads, steer or brake by wire, driver monitoring/vehicle reporting, or any kind of remote 3rd party accessibility. I realize several of these are ostensibly safety advancements, but my opinion remains.
TL;DR: Tech sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit.
redbaron78@reddit
Itās the implementation. Iām a tech enthusiast and work in IT. I volunteer at a church helping them with their livestream and tech stuff. Iām known by many as a bona fide techno geek. I had a 2022 Volvo XC60 and the technology was so bad it was absolutely infuriating, and when the safety systems became unreliable, Volvo bought it back under the lemon law. It wasnāt just mine though. The lemon law attorney said he had seen more Volvos that year than in his 14 prior years combined. Everything about Volvoās implementation of Android Automotive was bad. (Android Automotive runs the whole car; itās different than Android Auto) Obviously safety systems not working is an issue, but everything user-facing was bad also. Screen redraws were slow, UX was designed poorly, too many taps, no wireless CarPlay, I could go on and on.
Now I have a Tesla. They get a lot right, but there are some idiotic things about the tech in Teslas also. Even with the enormous screen, I get no 360 cameras, no Waze, no CarPlay, no Android auto, which means no Webex app, which means I have to join meetings from my phone like itās 2012, and the built-in podcast UI in Tesla is horrendousāyou canāt hide played episodes, canāt sort oldest to newest, canāt play a Spotify playlist with both music and podcasts, etc.
All of this stuff should be table stakes. It should work 80% as well in our $60,000 as it does on our $800 phones. But no, because auto makers just seem to suck at it.
chillaxtion@reddit
2012 is peak car. Great fuel injection. Reasonable diagnostic tools. Great reliability and performance including fuel efficiency.
The car isnāt internet connected. I donāt need to buy features already on the car. Almost everything is standard and can be replaced with off the shelf parts.
I need my car to start, drive, be comfortable, and repairable by a local mechanic. I donāt need infotainment or for someone to be able to shut it off from 1000 miles away.
I do not need CarPlay
nips927@reddit
Peak was 1996-2008
Bulky_Dingo_4706@reddit
Late 90s/early 2000s. Simple electronics while still having OBD2
Tdogintothekeys@reddit
Agreed. For diesels its pre def and unnecessary emissions equipment thats more prone to fail and does absolutely nothing. I like my 03 forester. Simple and reliable. I love my c10 though. You can see exactly how everything works on it. Plus a v8 small block and classic body lines. I think body styles peaked in the 80s but performance was way better in the 90s-2000.
nips927@reddit
Had 99 Ford ranger super easy to work on
Clutchking14@reddit
Because that was the year we lost Pontiac and SAAB
No-Collection-2485@reddit
Will never forget the SPG. Made me a car guy.
nips927@reddit
Pontiac lives in just not as Pontiac. The g8 and GTO from the 00s were originally Vauxhall and Holden. Gm should of kept Pontiac
chillaxtion@reddit
Close enough
Old_Sector1535@reddit
Peak safety that matters..ie chassis rigidity and airbags, esc...but not that lane assist bullshit
jackattack222@reddit
Carplay is fucking dope! Why don't you like it? I agree with everything else though
chillaxtion@reddit
Because I just listen to NPR mostly and when I donāt Iām ok with whatever.
College radio is pretty entertaining as well but I donāt need to be connected to my phone like itās a lifesaving IV.
I just need my car to be a car, thatās it.
Back up camera are where I draw the line.
IsbellDL@reddit
Back up cameras are great. Car design that necessitates them is arguably less so. My car didn't come with one. I added it 6 years later. Not only can I see if a small animal walks below my line of vision, but I can see around the backs of SUVs long before I'd be able to looking normally. They're great for checking for cross traffic on a crowded parking lot.Ā
Acrobatic-Hunt618@reddit
Because i have an fm transmitter. I never needed anything better than that. The quality in an anker fm transmitter is fantastic with no static. Car play is just reinventing the wheel when it was unnecessary.
No-Giraffe-5215@reddit
*agrees in his 2012 mazda3
Bulky_Dingo_4706@reddit
2012 is not peak. Still lots of tech and sensors. I would say early 2000s.
l5555l@reddit
2012 you get all the creature comforts without all the internet bullshit and nothing but touch screens and digital gauges on modern cars.
Acrobatic-Hunt618@reddit
Id say subtract 10 years from that number, personally
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I agree about the car having a cellular or Wi-Fi modem that can interact with the cars fundamental systems. Mine is the last year my model was made without a modem. I'll use my phone for anything that needs a download.
Suitable_Boat_8739@reddit
Rant initiated. Take it or leave it.
My first complaint is cost the rest are...
-Screens: They can be great IF all driving controls are tactile hardware button based and the UIs are made right unfoutunatly this is the exception not the rule.
Also, sure you can display any gauge on a screen, but most cars only give you a handfull of options. If I was car king for a day you would be able to see everything including all dignostic and calculated data... but thats not how it is.
-Sensors: All the "safety" sensors and stuff bring a slew of distracting false positives and make bad drivers feel they dont need to pay attention. These sensors can malfunction or get damaged in minor acxidents and create huge bills later.
-CAN bus, ect: This could be 100x better if every manufacturer made the protocols available to you when spending $x0,000+ on a new car but they dont. Sure there are many possibilities but even as an engineer I consider messing around with the CAN bus (beyond obd) sort of scary (i do have a CAN sniffing project on my list but dont thing ill cross over to injection).
The pain goes beyond wanting to modify anythig, when X module goes bad many cars require the new one to be "programmed" when you replace it. This is an intentional effort to monopilize service.
-Electifying mechanical controls: Electronic throttle lag is terrible. Electronic power steering is just bad...ok? Even good examples stink compared to good old stupid hydraulic. Dont even get me started on electric brake boosters and their non linear response and lack of feedback.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Protocols would be good, I'd really like to tune my ESC but can't find a decent way to do it.
In some ways throttle lag is required. Some make the throttle large enough that if it was to instantly open it'd bog the engine. Other then that yeah it's a safety thing to be tuned out.
Not a fan of EPS either.
brokensharts@reddit
Cause when it breaks, its expensive
Tdogintothekeys@reddit
My dad changed out his transfer case on his 05 chevy duramax and had to get it towed to the shop and reprogrammed. How stupid is it when you change out a mechanical component that has a solenoid actuator and it has to be individually reprogrammed if its changed out. It takes something easy and makes it cost more and be more complicated than necessary. Thats why we hate technology in cars.
kzin@reddit
Itās harder to fix and theyāre charging way more than these features are worth to me. Theyāre also spying on you with that nifty 5g built in.
Me personally, I donāt particularly care for the steering wheel jerking itself over when the camera system hallucinates something. Iām not a big fan of cruise control either. I donāt even use the old school cruise control on my car and I damn sure donāt trust the fancy new camera/radar cruise control.
superbotnik@reddit
Because there are people that donāt like or canāt accept change. Iām older too and I prefer the big screen and better controls of everything in the car.
Bulky_Dingo_4706@reddit
Itās a car, not a computer. A screen is a distraction and gimmicky. I prefer buttons, and a traditional radio.
All I need is Bluetooth, which is easy to implement.
superbotnik@reddit
Thanks for reinforcing my point. You ādonāt need itā and therefore your opinion is correct. Other people donāt matter and their opinion is less valid than yours. Donāt forget to feed the horse attached to the front of your car.
Bulky_Dingo_4706@reddit
Enjoy driving your computer. One day it will drive you, taking all the fun away.
superbotnik@reddit
To follow your logic, driving is a distraction.
HammerOn57@reddit
Ah yes, the only reason someone could possibly dislike touch screen interfaces in their car is because they can't accept change.
If you're old enough to drive, you should be old enough to realise not everyone sees things the way you do.
I think touchscreens replacing physical controls is awful design and I won't waste my money on one.
ThisCharmingDan99@reddit
Yea, touch screens suck. The trend is awful.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Sometimes I think it's like my elderly mother who just doesn't want to learn. If I make her she can figure it out, but she'd rather just complain.
Blu_yello_husky@reddit
I truly believe cars were much better 50 years ago. Anything that has come out since the 70s doesnt belong in a car, in my opinion. Especially when it comes to GPS and touch screen devices. Car instrumentation should be dials and switches, not touch screen do-dads and hands free gimmicks. You used to be able to diagnose and fix a car with a basic set of tools and an afternoon to spare, now you need a computer just to find out why the car wont start or run properly. And you can forget about roadside repairs. 1970s and prior, cars were just better. And that is a hill i'll die on. Oh, and im not one of those people who says all this and still drives some new junk. I drive a 1978 chrysler. Why would I want to own a newer car if I dont like them?
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
A little story..
Not long ago I had a throttle issue that put me on the side of the road, basically the electronic equivalent of a broken throttle cable. I grabbed by phone, opened the diagnostic app, did a throttle relearn procedure and was back on the road without ever getting out of my drivers seat.
Blu_yello_husky@reddit
So you have one example of a situation that was "better" than it was in the old days. What if the car stalled because say, the fuel filter clogged up? Now you not only have to diagnose that, but crawl under the car (assuming you have the right tools with you), remove it, blow it out, put it back in, crawl back out from under it, let the jack down, and see if it starts long enough to limp it home. All while cars are racing past you at 70mph on the highway. My car i could have that filter out and in in less than 2 minutes with just a flathead screwdriver and some elbow grease. Wouldn't even have to lift the car up.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Well two things with that example.
A fuel filter issue shouldn't be a surprise, they're maintenance items.
In my car it's access through a panel under the back seat and just requires like a flat head screwdriver to use as a punch/pry tool to open the housing. So similarly out and in in less than 2 minutes with just a flathead screwdriver and some elbow grease. Wouldn't even have to lift the car up, lift the hood, or work outside the car.
Blu_yello_husky@reddit
š¤· sounds like we're both set in our ways. Youre not going to convince me otherwise and it sounds like im not going to convince you. There are other things that are better about the older cars that just aren't featured anymore in modern cars, ill never even consider buying a moderm car until those things become available in today's cars
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
"There are other things that are better about the older cars that just aren't featured anymore in modern cars"
I'm curious, like what?
I can actually think of a couple, it's not like I don't own any older cars. But I'm curious what you'd say.
Blu_yello_husky@reddit
Seats that you sink into like a waterbed, suspension that rides like a waterbed, and power steering you can do a U turn with one finger. Until new cars start coming with seats like the ones in a 78 Cadillac eldorado, you'll never catch me at a dealership
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Those I tend to agree with, they all have their trade offs though. Namely mostly safety.
Blu_yello_husky@reddit
I'm in a 2 1/2 ton steel box. I'm not too concerned about safety. If im going to die in a car accident, I at least want to be comfortable right beforehand.
op3l@reddit
Touch screen is good when it's used in a setting where you don't have to pay attention to the road like in the house, or on the bed. On a car it's just stupid as there's nothing physical for you to feel so you have to take eyes off road to do anything.
On my car with physical AC I can literally reach over, feel for the button and press/turn it without taking my eyes off road. Not possible with a touch screen.
The other tech in car is just complexity. Tech is always good and welcomed... until they malfunction and can't be repaired.
BoisterousBanquet@reddit
They've gone too far, that's why. Technology is supposed to make lives easier. Turning a knob to adjust air temperature or radio volume is a hell of a lot easier, and less distracting/dangerous, than burying those controls in some touchscreen sub menu. It's like the OEMs went oh, you like that screen? Then we'll screen all the things! I think they're learning that people hate it though, I'm seeing a resurgence in physical controls for key functions.
Rondoman78@reddit
It's a huge moneysaver for them, that's the bottom line.
When every model has a touch screen vs specifically designed knobs and buttons it's a huge cost savings.
Suitable_Boat_8739@reddit
Is it huge though? Or is it $10/vehicle.
Yes, yes, yes if they make millions of vehicles....i get it. But i would pay $100 to have my $10 buttons and knobs back.
DeliciousWrangler166@reddit
A friend was a 2020 Civic with 22,000 miles was looking at new cars. The guy is a techno geek but strongly dislikes drilling down into menus on a screen just to do really simple things. So I would say in his case overly complicated poor design to perform tasks that once were super simple to complete.
Tensoneu@reddit
It's not bad, depending on how it's implemented by the automaker.
I have been driving a Tesla Model 3 for 7 years now and I rarely touch the screen for functions. I wouldn't even know what I need to touch the screen for while driving.
The extent of my interaction with the screen is going to the service menu to put it in car wash mode when I go to an automated car wash or enter an address in the GPS. I can send the GPS destination from the phone to the car and it'll load it automatically.
Most settings are tied with your driver profile and linked with your phone when you get in the car. This is typically configured the first time when you're sitting in the car learning the features/settings of the car. This includes the vent orientation for A/C. Or when something is new that is introduced in an update.
For Tesla's you can go into service mode and can run most of the diagnostics of the car if needed by yourself.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Interesting.
Tensoneu@reddit
The other nice/convenience feature Tesla has is there's also a profile tied to your account. So if you ever have your car in service and Tesla provides you a loaner. All of your settings (seats, accounts, mirrors, etc.) will be tied to you when they add the loaner to you. Everything comes up to the Tesla app.
No messing around with the screens. This change was introduced much later (maybe within the past 3-4 years).
MischaBurns@reddit
And that's fine, but you aren't going to use those hundred buttons while driving.
I like the concept of a touch screen to access data and adjust settings. What I have a problem with is moving all dashboard controls to it, since it removes the tactile sensory feedback from the loop. I want to be able to switch on my A/C, adjust temp, etc without looking. Change tracks/stations. You get the idea
Ideally, I'd like to see a blend of the two, with buttons or dials for commonly used functions and the touchscreen for when you want to dig into the details or change niche settings or whatever.
I also have a massive problem with subscription based functions or pay-to-activate stuff, but I don't think that's what you're asking about.
I don't think anyone is arguing that EFI or other similar innovations are bad (except for cats. Idk why people hate them so much, the 2 fucking HP it cost them isn't going to make a difference.)
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I HATE people that remove their cats, it's a technology that costs nothing in regards to performance but has a great effect on the air we all breath.
Waste-Menu-1910@reddit
It's not just cars. Technology earned it's backlash by being heavily misused and ever present. There's a genuine fatigue and feeling of being let down.
The days of optimism in technology are dwindling down. When is the last time you thought tech was going to genuinely improve your life in a tangible way and you weren't proven wrong? I'd say gps, and that's been around for several decades by now.
Now most tech that's announced doesn't involve daydreams about a better life. It involves dread at the thought of misuse, or eye rolling at how over hyped it is.
In cars specifically, that tech comes at a heavy price. Historically, luxury models depreciated the fastest, as they were the most costly to repair as they aged. When every car has those features, the costly repairs are inescapable.
Some things are nice. Power windows and door locks, back up cameras, heated seats, remote entry.
Yeah, how about hooking that shit up to a modem so you have to pay a monthly fee on a vehicle you're already purchasing for $60k so those features don't get remotely disabled? That idea has been floated around, famously by bmw.
How about using that fucking modem to collect data to sell to insurance companies? Gm got sued for that.
Or how about using that telemetry to deny warranty repairs, like what happened to some owners of Toyota gr Corolla, a car that comes with national auto sports association membership built in. It's a track car until Toyota traces it to a track doing track car things.
Look up some of the parents that have been filed for automotive tech. It's downright scary.
So, modem aside, let's look at other tech. Look at what gets the biggest complaints. Most of it is there to either cause or facilitate bad driving.
I'm okay with touchscreens, until regular features get moved from buttons to the screen. That's been happening.
Lane assist, blind spot monitoring, pre collision assist. All work imperfectly, and all seem to provide more distraction and annoyance than assistance in the wrong conditions. They may have improved in the past 5 years, but they definitely were added to cars before the tech was fully cooked. Customers paying full MSRP for a product should not be beta testers.
Compare the cost of a tail light for a Ford that's equipped with BLIS vs one that isn't. Or the cost of windshield replacement on a Subaru with front facing cameras vs one without.
How many different drive modes do you pay for? Now how many do you actually use?
Efi made cars better. Gm cylinder deactivation led to lifter issues. Auto start/stop is universally hated by drivers.
How much of this tech comes with downgraded materials? How many parts get looked at by car publications for them to say, "the design is much more clever than the previous generation. To bad they used an inferior metal. (Or worse, plastic)"
This is why people hate tech in their cars. You pay full MSRP for something make more cheaper at it's core than before, full of features that are either still being tested, or that you won't even look at after two weeks of ownership, that's harvesting your data. The tech doesn't represent a hopeful future. It's a dystopian nightmare of surveillance and enshitification.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
My new smart watch.
I'd say that's more luxury brands regardless of the amount of technology. It was just as true for an 80s Mercedes as it is for a current Mercedes.
I don't understand the outrage behind that. They offered a forever option that was no more than paying for the feature normally. It just provided the extra option of not paying for it.
This and other similar aspects I very much agree with. It's not really an anti-tech aspect though but how it's used. I personally chose a car in part without a wireless modem for similar privacy reasons. The modem should have a switch to physically turn it off, pull a fuse, something like that.
Here I tend to agree though the blind spot works quite well in mine. Don't have lane assist but hated it in other vehicles. Similarly my pre-collision is just a warning that I have on it's lowest setting, it doesn't apply the brakes. But again I've driven vehicles that do and HATE it. Goes back to the last paragraph of my post "I dislike anything that takes control away from the owner/driver"
More complicated parts are more expensive, this again isn't new. When disc brakes where new they were more costly to maintain than drum brakes.
Well personally I use all of mine, in fact I added some with aftermarket software. But mostly those are just code, they don't really cost.
I'm not 100% on the GM but the Chrysler version is very similar and it's not an issue caused by the cylinder deactivation.
NoRegret1893@reddit
Bad design (sometimes) and bad engineering.
Having to scroll through menus to adjust the heat/AC is plain dumb.
Lagging touch screens are maddening
Sunlight glare washes out the screen sometimes
Touch screens require you to move your eyes off the road. Buttons and knobs are tactile by feel. You can make adjustments without looking.
Automobiles are generally a hostile environment for too much high-tech. Too hot, too cold, voltage surges, moisture intrusion, shock, vibration.
And once you're touch screen fails, in many cars you can't even drive it anymore.
SailingSpark@reddit
One of the problems with touch screens is it makes too many items available for "pay to play" like BMW tried with the heated seats. I would hate to buy a car and have to pay a monthly subscription for heated seats, air con, fog lights, and any other weirdly optional bits they can think of.
The other is keeping my eyes on the road. Mechanical, or at least dedicated HVAC, can usually be adjusted without taking your eyes off of the road. Same with the entertainment systems. Even then, things get weird. My fiat has 20 button pushes from fan off to full. Exactly how many percentages of fan do you need?
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I don't understand the outrage with that BMW paid features thing either. Heated seats are an option that everyone pays for one way or the other if they want it. BMW offers a forever option to turn them on. It just provides the option not to.
The second is poor UI implementation.
l5555l@reddit
Because it's not necessary. Also more electronics means more stuff to break. I'm not anti technology for cars but I think the peak era was like 2009-2013. Everything after that is just adding complexity to appeal to the tech crowd. Idk how cars became tech but it really just sucks. People paying 70 grand for a not even top of the line full size SUV or pickup is just stupid.
FeastingOnFelines@reddit
So one concern with display screens in cars is that all it takes is a bad ground or an Over The Air Update that didnāt install correctly and, POOF, none of the displays work and youāre driving blind. Itās the problem of all of your eggs in one basket. Drop the basket andā¦
Dry-Name2835@reddit
Many of these people dont like tech because it downgrades the importance of skill that people had to spend years learning. Thus they bitch about tech as a whole for simple and convenient things too. I marine spending 10-20-30 years mastering something and someone can immediately do, not better but servicable at the touch of a button.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
An interesting thought, not an issue I have but many people are petty creatures so I can see it.
I've been to several performance driving schools, worked on my skills, etc. That my ABS can brake better than I can after having mastered threshold braking makes me impressed not dislike modern brakes.
panthian@reddit
It's all great until it fails. For context, my 08 Outback came with a touch screen that never worked since I've owned it. Not that something primitive like that is needed, but it would cost thousands to replace it. I could possibly replace it with something aftermarket, but the screen is also integrated with the hvac buttons. They would not work if that screen was removed. So I simply stuck a magnetic phone mount to the screen so I can stick my phone there.
dugg117@reddit
Technology is bad because when stuff breaks you don't have the keys to the kingdom. But they go and tie the infotainment system into the ECU so they can get around right to repair laws and hide behind DRM for the rest.Ā If they had to adhere to some kind of open source license and/or putting you're own software on it was an option then maybe but as it stands you're on the hook for a few hundred dollars every time a dealer needs to plug in the super special sauce brand specific nonsense.Ā
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
DRM?
dugg117@reddit
Digital rights managementĀ
Gubbtratt1@reddit
Sure, tech is great when it works. I like to be able to fix things when they don't work though. I've had apart the regulator and throttle part of a CAV diesel injection pump and an ECU. Guess which one I understood how it worked and would be able to identify and replace a broken component in?
Rondoman78@reddit
Is this guys name Dunning Kruger.
Confident moron.
mmmmmyee@reddit
Probably because itās self proclaimed askcarguys and reddit.
Typical internet car guy says manual>a/t in all situations. And thus means we all probably dislike most all tech in cars. Reasons for like taking away driving feel; adding āunneeded complexity ā, etc.
But Im with you. I converted my 80ās Toyota to a modern EFI setup with individual throttles and it runs wayy better than old 80ās equipment. That and inclusion of new sensors to monitor everything and allow adjustments via laptop is sweet.
I get the complexity concerns though. People donāt have time to learn/figure out new systems. And those systems are hard to train mechanics on (thus those computer dudes at the shop can charge a premium). Im betting itās an ingrained thing for most onternet car guys. New tech is hard to understand so itās ābadā lol.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I thought about including the whole "manual>a/t" thing but figured the post was long enough already. In all but specific situations the manual is obsolete. Rowing gears and pretending your in a F&F movie revving the engine all the time doesn't do anything practical.
tonydaracer@reddit
Be cause all these "options" are really just excuses for manufacturers to jack the price up.
All I need is A/C, Heat, and a functioning Auxiliary sound system. Fuck everything else.Ā
Mad_Scientist_420@reddit
If technology is bad, why do so many people swap newer motors into old cars? The only issue really is how it's implemented.
My 81 Camaro is getting an LS3, and it already has android auto, backup camera, hardwired dash cam, digital gauges, auto dimming LED headlights, and more..... It's easy to work on still, but has upgraded tech throughout. Each system is independent.
Bulky_Dingo_4706@reddit
Heās referring to different tech, i.e. sensors, touch screens, massaging seats, etc.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
No I'm not.
Bulky_Dingo_4706@reddit
Because itās a car, not a computer. All I need is a steering wheel, pedals, and HVAC/radio. I donāt need all of these stupid sensors doing everything for me, or selling my data.
karankshah@reddit
I think most people would say their aversion to tech in cars is focused less on the back end and much more on the usability of it day to day:
Climate control, gear selection, turn signals, horns, all absolutely without a doubt need static controls you can operate only by feel. I would go so far as to say that any delay while operating these things is a risk to safety - such that even if you have static controls, a software layer that doesn't operate on dedicated circuitry is a non-starter. For what it's worth, tech in cars is now reaching such a point that there is a material delay to my horn in my Tesla when I press it. And I can promise that while Tesla is far along this curve, every single automaker is envious of this and is looking to go to touchscreens because it saves costs.
Audio/entertainment tools, navigation systems etc are all often systems that are used while vehicles are in motion; I personally think that basic controls (cancel navigation, next radio station, volume up/down etc) all similarly need physical controls. Given how distracted people can get behind the wheel I honestly would even be onboard with disabling the advanced tools while the car is in motion.
I think there are very few people that even know what the CAN-bus is, and of those people even fewer would center their criticism of electronics around the CAN-bus. The problem is the chip architecture in use behind the CAN-bus which is increasingly relying on consumer-grade x86 or Ampere style chips; while they're "faster" in theory they are not "real-time." The newer chips are somewhat cheaper, and are flexible enough to handle the more complex computing tasks involved with advanced vision and sensor systems, but they do not operate in "real time".
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
The only aspect I disagree with here is the disabling while in motion. Like I said I disagree with anything that takes control way from the owner/driver. That should be something that's a menu option, that's maybe locked out with a code or something. So like a parent could lock out the menu while in motion for their kids car.
I brought up CAN-bus because I read several comments in other posts saying they didn't like it. But it's less about CAN-bus specifically than it is all the computerization which I think is great. I dig being able to roll down my windows with my fob, can't do that without the windows having a computer module.
Are there many cars that don't have physical controls for climate control, gear selection, turn signals, horn, audio/entertainment tools and navigation systems? In mine the only climate control I need the screen for is the seat heat/cool and if I want to specify heat/cool only on feet or dash, the rest has buttons. Gear, turn and horn are standard. Audio/nav have buttons on the wheel that do those functions.
Yes delays are a no go, in particular in an emergency item like a horn, that's horrible.
karankshah@reddit
So I think it's varied across your list; gear selection/turn signals is rare, horn is probably fairly few, but climate and audio are shifting en masse.
It's also worth mentioning that while a lot of car makers still have capacitive or even physical buttons for them, behind the scenes those systems are all going fully computerized.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Yes, I don't think my car has a single physical button that isn't just telling a computer what to do and the computer/module then does what the button is instructing via a relay of some sort.
nvm206@reddit
Try getting your modern technology car unstuck from snow. The awd will just sense no grip and shut the car down. It doesnāt understand that you need to rock the car to build momentum or need to modulate the gear and revs. So annoying when the transmission just unshifts for you when you need to lock a low gear. I got stuck in a modern X5 awd bmw this way. All of the snow modes etc were worthless and didnāt change a thing. However, my manual e90 awd bmw Iāve never gotten stuck because I could actually control the car and modulate the inputs unlike in a car where a computer controls everything.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
This is another example of poor implementation. I have a fancy AWD, but do just fine because I can turn off traction control with the push of a button, and lock the transmission in first with a tap of the shifter.
MusicMan7969@reddit
I like some tech. Give me a small screen for a back up camera (although I still use my mirrors and look back) and navigation. I suppose I also use CarPlay, so the radio screen also gets use from me. After that, I want buttons and knobs. Climate control is more intuitive with buttons and knobs. I have it on my screen however I never use it. I also use the volume knob vs touch screen for the radio.
I bought a āpeasant specā Camaro because it had limited tech. No lane departure, blind spot monitors or adaptive cruise. The car is not constantly alerting me. I want to control and drive the car. Why? Well I rent cars a lot for my job and Iāve had cars brake for me when a car changed lanes in front of me on the highway. Scared the crap out of me and almost got rear ended.
Next I had a semi come over Into my lane. I maneuvered out of the fast lane to not get hit and had to fight the car from trying to keep me in my lane. Again, scared the crap out of me and my occupants.
I donāt text and drive and pay attention while Iām driving. Iām behind the wheel of a 3,000 lb missile and need to be fully aware while driving. It is scary how many people I see on their phone while driving. I suppose thatās why there are so many ānannyā tech feature added to cars, but itās a band aid. Pay attention while driving.
nemam111@reddit
I'll give you one example, my car has "electronic knobs" for climate controls. So, tactile, actual controls right.
You grab the knob and turn it 180 degrees, the temperature changes by 0.5C. if you turn it slowly, it'd change by like 7C in 180 motion. Why? Because it's stupid that's why
wpmason@reddit
Complexity and Cost.
Touchscreen infotainment systems sure look fancy, but they usually work like dogshit.
If you want to replace a stereo nowadays you have to spend $250 in modules and dash kits and other installation accessories before you even pick out a new head unit.
And that new head unit is a touchscreen tooā¦ but often a better design or interface.
And god help you if you scratch an OEM touchscreenā¦ those units cost thousands of dollars to replace.
And when they put climate control and other vital controls in the touchscreen it makes driving more hazardous because of the distraction. You canāt navigate a touchscreen by feel the way you can physically knobs/buttons.
imprl59@reddit
I absolutely love the technology in new cars.
But I don't want one...
For me it comes down to long term reliability. There's so much you can't do without the screens on new cars and I see those multiple screens and all those modules absolutely baking in the hot florida sun and wonder what the future of that car is going to be.
I tend to buy a 10 year old low mileage vehicle and run the wheels off of it. In my experience, no matter who makes the car - all these modules start crapping out eventually. I don't really need 18 modules in my car and I don't need a smart driver side window module that fails and takes down the entire can bus. Nor do I need a $2k headlight that looks like about 10% better than my $200 headlight does.
I also don't want my car talking to the internet and telling the insurance company on me or allowing the manufacturer to "sell" me a subscription to make hardware I already paid for work properly.
VegaGT-VZ@reddit
Nostalgia and complaining about the present is a very easy way to get attention from car guys.
I like being able to scan codes and use stuff like Spotify and Google Maps without touch the phone. Anything I need to menu dive for is not necessary to do while driving. I think a lot of people who complain about new tech dont have any experience with it.
Abe-early@reddit
The more equipment a car has, the more equipment there is to break. I just want simple reliable transportation. I stare at enough screens throughout the day, the last thing I need to be looking at is a screen while Iām driving.
TaylorSwiftScatPorn@reddit
I love playing with my DIC, but can't stand that my ASS is permanently turned on.
pbgod@reddit
Technology isn't inherently bad... but today, it's just as often the "technology" takes a car off the road, making it unlivable, as a real mechanical failure.
I bought an F150 intentionally without blind-spot monitoring (as an example). My truck needed a tail light because the owner before me backed into his own trailer and punched it out. The F150 blind spot monitors are built into the tail lights.
OE-style aftermarket tail light $40-80 and viable because it's just a light.
Ford factory tail light $130 (I think)
Ford factory tail light with blind spot monitor $1100
If that damage compromised the blind-spot monitor, it's an extra $1000 repair. You have to repair it, because it's your tail light.
I don't need blind-spot monitoring. Between that option in the purchase price, and that repair. That simple choice saved me $2,000.
Windshields are another great example.
I had a windshield in my 2015 Audi Allroad for $400 OTD.
On the '21 Allroad I worked on last week: Windshield, (which really needs to be OE because we constantly see camera alignment issues with aftermarket glass because the brackets are poorly set) + install + required alignment and calibration of the camera. $2100
Technology isn't all bad, but a lot of it is ridiculously expensive to repair. I would rather not have the financial risk... and I'm a technician.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Yeah, repair is a concern, in fact I worry about my windshield should I ever need it replaced. There's a camera but the only system that relies in it is the auto high beams which I don't use anyway. I do like the rain sensing wipers though, so that sensor could be an issue.
Putting sensors in a tail light is just poor planning, though I guess the bumper isn't much better. Heck come to think of it on a pickup the tail light might be better than the bumper.
However those aren't features that would make a vehicle undriveable if they failed so I consider it far less of a concern. Like your blind spot example, even if the truck had the feature factory, putting in a cheap light would just disable that feature correct? So not a huge deal.
Personally the biggest risk like that on mine is my headlight assemblies, if they're damaged they're like $1500 used.
professorfunkenpunk@reddit
I just donāt like touch screens, at least for climate and audio. They are more of a hassle to use than buttons and knobs
PK808370@reddit
For me, itās not that tech = bad. Give me electronic fuel injection every day.
Itās the fact that the tech sucks, is less hands on, is basically a marketing/targeted ad vector, doesnāt look good, the interface sucks. I drove a Model 3 for a while. It did all the things ācarā should do. It accelerated very well, but it was so boring, like a fast Lexus. The screen was terrible - someone just put an iPad in the center console. Eyes looking in the wrong place for info - HUD should be in front of me. No physical controls. In the end the touchscreen is super cheap compared to physical controls, and it usually feels cheap.
Ok-Tangelo4024@reddit
Part of the problem is all those modules and screens and stuff are tied to the VIN which requires dealer specific tools if the module goes out. You can't just replace it with a new one in a lot of cases. It has to be programmed by the dealer.
Also, the on board diagnostics on modern cars is phenomenal...if you have a computer to read it. Even though the computers on board already have a touchscreen interface that could be used to give you the specific codes, manufacturers only let the on board screens give you generic errors like "see dealer" or "x system unavailable, see dealer"
The guys in the 90s hated fuel injection because it was new and they couldn't work on it. By the 2000s, that was mostly sorted out and a cheap scan tool could get you what you needed. Aftermarket EFI systems started popping up that could replace carburetors and improve on old stuff.
Besides improving some safety stuff, this technology isn't really improving much for drivers and it's making everything harder to work on. You need expensive scan tools and vehicle specific add on packages to be able to do any real work on modern vehicles.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I'm reasonably sure that the only module in my car that has VIN coding is the ABS/ESC module and that I have the software to update/swap it, but I haven't had to yet so not sure. I don't think anything is dealer only for me with the little bit of aftermarket software I have.
I do agree that they should integrate diagnostics into the factory screen. I think one day I'll replace mine with an Android tablet so I can do just that.
Pre-OBDII EFI was interesting do deal with, but many didn't even need a tool at at, at most a paper clip. However it wasn't advanced enough to tell you a specific problem and then could be tricky to diagnose.
That last point I think is very vehicle specific, I invested about $200 in diagnostic tools for mine, not bad at all.
revocer@reddit
My biggest gripe is touch screens because of the lack of tactile feedback. I feel like I am hunting for the button with my eyes, rather than keeping my eyes on the road. I much prefer knobs or levers or even some style of physical buttons, where I can feel the setting, rather than look at the setting then adjust.
Grandemestizo@reddit
I for one like most of the modern technology in cars. I like that I have an app that shows me my fuel level and oil condition. I like that I can start my car remotely. I like advanced crash avoidance systems and big thick pillars full of airbags. I love automatic climate control and adaptive cruise control is awesome.