Proposed reusable spaceplane design by Indian space program

Reusable space planes are an engineering problem, and the last rocket India put in space that I can remember needed 20 burns to get to orbit because it failed and couldn't work at full thrust.

This is like saying, if I had super materials, I could build a space elevator.... No kidding. But can YOU?

No, they cannot.

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ResortMain780@reddit

and if they could it definitely isn't worth it from a resources perspective.

I got to disagree with this. A (mostly) airbreathing space plane has so many advantages, being able to take off and land form normal runways without supersonic booms and giant explosion. Far more economical due to not having to lift most of the oxygen and not fighting gravity losses all the way to orbit.

That said, I think this is a more realistic and promising approach:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdfTCBRwijI

A lighter than air "space plane". Is that doable in practice? I have no idea, but it doesnt seem to require any breakthrough innovations.

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GorgeWashington@reddit

It has many technical advantages. But in the age of reusable rockets, and commercial spaceflight... lift costs are at an all time low.

The maintenance costs alone promise to make an aircraft with what will be the most complicated engine ever built, impractical

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ResortMain780@reddit

Its hard to imagine an engine that has fewer moving parts and requires less maintenance than a scramjet. The rocket engines, it shares that with reusable first stage rockets, it just needs a lot fewer of them and arguably they are less prone to wear and tear by not being exposed to re-entry plasma or having to land vertically. That leaves the turbo ramjet, and at least Hermeus seems to think that is among the easiest of all problems with hypersonic flight and they have successfully converted a conventional military jet engine to a dual mode turbo/ram jet for their quarterhorse. Not saying its trivial, but if a $100M startup can do it, it should be doable for a nation state the size of India.

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GorgeWashington@reddit

I look forward to seeing one get to orbit.

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MrFickless@reddit

Sonic booms usually aren't a problem on the way up, and if something goes wrong on this thing, it's still going to explode with just as much energy.

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elvenmaster_@reddit

I won't go into the details of the rocket equation, but in layman's terms, mass is the enemy. Like, really. Even on an expandable rocket with top-notch engines, you still only have a single digit weight margin (in %) for the payload and on the lower half.

This is why rockets dump the lower stages with the engine and all. Add the fact that you need different engines for different air pressures, meaning even more weight, and you have it.

A space plane (or SSTO, for single stage to orbit) is the wet dream of all rocket engineers. Except it needs to have a fuselage big enough to hold all the fuel for the entire flight + reentry burn, plus all the different engines for the different stages of the flight, and a big enough heat shield to protect all that stuff.

Nah. Best we could do is a reusable first stage and a reusable second stage, except we don't have the technology for the second yet, even if it is the basic principle of the space shuttle (which was... not that reliable).

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My_useless_alt@reddit

This isn't an SSTO though. It's a reusable first stage and expendable second stage, and the first stage is a plane.

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Tehkin@reddit

i would never trust indian engineering enough to build something like that: https://www.reddit.com/r/interesting/s/G0ypUFSat1

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Traditional_Log_3762@reddit

??????? I mean bro if your going to be racist while ignoring facts go for it.

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Delicious_Lab_8304@reddit

Interesting trivia — this design is actually copied / “stolen” from China… I wonder if that will start becoming a new thing…

At least subscale models have flown, in China (theirs isn’t as fat / thick at the back as well).

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Tehkin@reddit

im not racist i've just seen their country and its undeniably a shithole. and what facts am i ignoring?

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SHTF_yesitdid@reddit

You seem obsessed with India. Why is that?

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Tehkin@reddit

wdym obsessed?

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SHTF_yesitdid@reddit

I cherish the fact that racist pricks like you will become a minority in your own country in just 15-20 years. A blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things. Australia already has 30% of the population that are non white immigrants.

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Tehkin@reddit

im not racist im pointing out an objective fact, their country is a shithole they can't manage, why would i believe their capable of anything else. not to mention if you believe that the mass immigration into Australia has done anything better for this country your delusional, we're in a housing and economic crisis and can't even home the number of people we already have, and can't build houses even half as fast as we need too to meet current demand, let alone all the new people this mentally handicapped government brings in. i have no problem with other people in other countries until they come into mine and make life harder for the people already here.

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SHTF_yesitdid@reddit

At least be a man and own up your racism. Why do you keep hiding behind "im not racist"? I am taking a wild guess here, you only speak one language, English and can barely type it.

I am also pointing out an objective fact that you will be in a minority in just 15-20 years and there is nothing you can do about it except screeching on the internet.

All I can say is enjoy the ride because the destination is closer than you think. Good luck.

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Tehkin@reddit

you can believe whatever you want. but if you can't accept objective reality life is going to be hard on you so good luck

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Downtown-Teach8367@reddit (OP)

Damn which Mr perfect country are you from?

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Tehkin@reddit

Australia ain't perfect but india is a shithole

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Downtown-Teach8367@reddit (OP)

And how successful of a space program do you have?. I trust Indian engineers way more than Australian ones.

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Tehkin@reddit

have you seen their civil infrastructure, australia may not have a space program but we have flushing toilets and a safe power grid, i wouldn't trust an indian engineer to change a lightbulb without sacrificing 3 apprentices to the rats nest they call wiring first

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Standard-Distance-92@reddit

Most of your world is run by Indian engineers

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Tehkin@reddit

since when? last time i checked most of the inventions and infrastructure my country run on where invented in the west

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Downtown-Teach8367@reddit (OP)

Your own government is using indian rockets to send satellite to space

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Tehkin@reddit

so what? i don't trust the engineering on that either but at least its required to meet australian standards

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Standard-Distance-92@reddit

Degenerate

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Tehkin@reddit

sure bud

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Standard-Distance-92@reddit

It’s all being run mostly by Indians, you can keep being ignorant, you’re pissed because of your dying economy and narcissism will breed scapegoatism

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SnooHobbies5691@reddit

KEC and Skipper both supply transmission hardware for Australian power grids. You would have known that if you were a civilized person. But I don't expect that from someone descended from criminals.

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Tehkin@reddit

and you would know the australian power grid is a POS if you'd ever been here but you're too far up your own ass

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SnooHobbies5691@reddit

we have flushing toilets and a safe power grid

you literally were bragging about it in the comment above. and now you're saying australian power grid is a POS?!?!

how fing r3t@rded are you? literally a pathological liar,

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purpleefilthh@reddit

Would you like Turbojet, Scramjet, Ramjet or Rocket engine?

Yes.

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serpenta@reddit

That payload space at the bottom LOL "Samir, we still have to provide 500 litres of payload space. - *Stretches palms* Time for some multi-faceted stereometry."

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c4chokes@reddit

Que???

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Vandeleur1@reddit

Where do the wheels go

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CmdrEnfeugo@reddit

It would be very cool to see this working, but I’m not sure how practical it is. It’s basically a hypersonic Virgin Orbit, though a much bigger payload. Virgin Orbit went out of business partly because how complicated launch from a plane is. This is even more complicated with 3 different engine technologies: turbo ram jet, scram jet and hydrolox engine for the second stage. Additionally, it’s not really clear what capabilities the first stage being a plane actually gives you. If I was in charge of ISRO, I’d probably put my research money towards a reusable 1st stage rocket with propulsive landing.

Could be interesting as a military plane though. I imagine you could easily replace the second stage with a hypersonic cruise missile.

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OpenImagination9@reddit

Wait I’ve seen this before https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=acOnskcyrtA

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Special-Jelly-3353@reddit

Does it come with soap and water?

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aviation-ModTeam@reddit

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AlBarbossa@reddit

Let them figure out Gen 3 Tejas first

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Jazzlike-Tank-4956@reddit

Unless you were condescending, which it pretty much looks like, the Tejas demonstrator, which is relevant for space flight first flew 24 years back. Rest, you won't need weapons or military subsystems

Also, 4++ gen btw, unless you don't care about technology involved and dismiss it as per your feelings

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AlBarbossa@reddit

The MK1 is a Gen 3 that has less than 50 airframes built despite being in development since the early 2000’s the MK2 is a PowerPoint. And that ain’t even counting the fact that all the critical technologies (engines, avionics etc) have to be brought from foreign firms

India is already 3 generations behind the superpowers it considers itself to be a peer of. Any space fantasies might as well be old episodes of Star Trek

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Jazzlike-Tank-4956@reddit

The MK1 is a Gen 3 that has less than 50 airframes built despite being in development since the ear

Development takes time especially if its your first project?

Composites, fly by wire, AESA radar, AESA based APJ, FADEC controlled F404, etc will make it 4 gen +

Also, airframes build is low because order size was low at 40 jets until 2021, which is being delayed because of engines

fact that all the critical technologies (engines, avionics etc) have to be brought from foreign firms

60% of the aircraft will be Indian, and it is being pushed to 70%

Avionics are Indian, and Indian AESA radar is fully developed and tested but not applied yet (which was planned from 41st jet) because the EW pod is not certified, so they decided to stick to Israeli radar. Although the next 97 orders will use Indian systems

The Indian engine is somewhat developed but cannot be used in Tejas because its 200kg away from target but it got cancelled bacnk in 2011, which is also what delayed the entire project.

Now the engine will be used in stealth UCAV

The Indian stealth jet in development(which has also completed CDR btw) will largely gap the technologies, and will be 80% plus Indian except ejection seat and engine(who will both be licensed) until Indian engine replaces it in late 2030s

The plane will largely feature majority of tech considered in 6th gen like high thrust to weight, low IR signature engine, MUM-T, advanced EW suite, GaN AESA, etc.

The technologies are largely developed, or in testing except the engine, and MUM-T which will fly maybe later this year or early next year

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Downtown-Teach8367@reddit (OP)

how is it gen 3? it has aesa , fly by wire , ram coating and good armament. mk2 prototype is already ready and undergoing testing.

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Logical_Frosting_277@reddit

So the engineers watched Star Wars and just figured they would copy an x wing fighter?

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Sea_Perspective6891@reddit

Interesting. Will it be a from runway to orbit kind of thing? I've seen many concepts for it. I think Venture Star came close before it was scrapped but so far no country not even the US has achieved a from runway to orbit launch platform

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WalrusWarhammer3544@reddit

The main hurdle is a functioning scramjet engine, ISRO have been at it for a while now. Their defense counterparts have been able to run a scramjet for over 1000 seconds which is a breakthrough about only 2-3 agencies have been able to achieve.

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elvenmaster_@reddit

It will only launch on paper, I fear.

SSTO's are theoretically possible, bit for basically no payload.

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My_useless_alt@reddit

This isn't an SSTO though. It's a 2 stage partially reusable, and the first stage is a plane.

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unsc95@reddit

Biggest problem they would have is heating. Those leading edges would get super hot on ascent.

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cmdr-William-Riker@reddit

I think their biggest problem would be the combo turbo jet, turbo ram jet, scramjet in a single vehicle for the first stage. That's a lot that has to go right for it to even get to stage separation

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unsc95@reddit

That is a problem, but it's purely technical. The heating problem is a physics problem. They say they're going to be going as fast as the sr71 at half the altitude. Even for a short period of time, that thing is gonna cook.

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LilDewey99@reddit

I wonder if they just organized the graphic the way they did for readability. Gotta imagine they’d prefer to use a (roughly) constant dynamic pressure ascent rather than a stepped approach like this

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zincseam@reddit

Battlestar Galactica! Cool.

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old_righty@reddit

Sometimes you gotta roll a hard six.

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attempted-anonymity@reddit

That's a lot of jet for a very, very small payload.

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IM_REFUELING@reddit

Every so often you see concepts like this pop up, only to inevitably die on the vine once reality sets in because trying to develop all those technologies in parallel and then cram them in the same vehicle is insanely expensive and impractical. There's a reason why the liquid rocket has remained king of the space launch kingdom since the beginning.

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Nomad-Scorpion@reddit

Oh so like the Sänger II idea/project which was scraped in the early 90s i think