Eve was punished for disobedience.
Babel for hubris
Job was nothing to do with autonomy. It was actually Satan who was ruining his life. God allowed Satan to act and then later restored Job and his life to more than it was before.
The whole “the devil is actually le good guy” is some fedora nonsense.
Yes, Eve's punishment for disobedience is for all of mankind to suffer for all of eternity unless you accept that this one really specific guy died for your sins and wasn't actually just executed by the Romans without any say in the matter
Sounds like something the good guy would do, right? Instead of, idk, starting over and not planting or letting Samael plant the fucking tree of knowledge in Adam and Eve's back yard?
There is no having a logical discussion with a religious person because they’ve already decided that what the believe is true and they will bend all their reasoning around that premise.
Then why do people spend so much time trying to justify his actions and espouse interpretations of the story? Why do they refute the possibility that god might be evil? That's religious hypocrisy at its finest
Okay but according to scripture, Jesus IS god, right? And Jesus knew for a fact that his life was eternal, has been around since the beginning of time, and would continue to be around to the end of time, right?
So that means God is essentially taking 33 years out of eternity to hang out on earth, then spending 3 days in physical pain while *knowing for a fact* there is eternal paradise waiting for him in like 72 hours, which is less than the blink of an eye relative to being as old as time itself.
Not to mention he sends his son either hundreds of thousands of years after humanity begins (or just thousands if you believe the world is 7000 years old), meaning that *every single person* who died before Jesus came about can't ever be saved. And then there's the issue of the *actual billions* of people in human history who either never heard of Jesus, were born into other religious cultures, or simply weren't convinced by a shaky book, all being damned to an eternity of suffering.
What an altruist
Im not trying to argue for and against here, but i was taught in Catholic school thet during the 3 days Jesus was dead, He went down to Hell to free all past sinners snd bring them to Heaven with Him.
God impregnated a virgin with his self in order to sacrifice himself to himself in order to justify to himself why be shouldn't torture a fraction of the sentient beings he created.
It’s not about God needing a sacrifice to appease Himself—it’s about **justice and mercy meeting**. Sin isn’t just broken rules—it’s broken relationships, and the cross is seen as God absorbing the cost of that brokenness, not inflicting it. It's okay to question it—many believers do. But mocking it doesn’t change the fact that it speaks deeply to people because it deals honestly with suffering, guilt, and hope.
fair take, but that’s not actually how Christian theology works. It’s not “love me or burn.” It’s more like: **God offers restoration**, but He won’t force anyone into relationship. If someone *chooses* separation, God honors that, even if the result is tragic. The “furnace” idea is more about the *consequence of rejection*, not divine tantrums. it’s a tough doctrine, but definitely more nuanced than the meme version.
Hey, you just crossed your legs when you sat in a chair. Yeah, turns out that's against the rules I made up before you were born. What? No one told you? Well you should've known it in your heart. Now I have to throw you into the oven unless you love me. /S
Christianity isn’t about random rules; you’re not condemned for crossing your legs. The moral framework centers on willful separation from the source of goodness, not arbitrary offenses. If God is the source of life and love, then rejecting that is like pulling your plug from the socket. The consequence isn’t punishment, it is disconnection. It’s not “love me or burn”; it is more like “if you reject light, you get darkness,” not because God is petty, but because that is the only alternative.
it **does sound strange at first**, especially if you're hearing it through the lens of bad theology or fire-and-brimstone caricatures. But to many, it makes sense because it's not about fear or control, it's about **freedom**. The idea is that love can’t be forced, and neither can reconciliation. So God offers restoration, but won’t override your will. It's less “obey or be punished” and more “the door’s open but will you walk through it?”
I get where you're coming from—it *does* sound wild on the surface. But from a Christian view, it’s not just about the time Jesus spent suffering. It’s about **God entering human history**, fully embracing the limitations, pain, and injustice we go through—not because He had to, but because **He chose to**, out of love.
As for those before or outside of Christianity, most Christians don’t believe God just tosses people into hell for not hearing the name “Jesus.” Romans 2, for example, says people are judged by the light they’re given. Salvation isn’t just a theological technicality—it’s about the heart, the conscience, and God’s mercy, which is far bigger than we can fully grasp.
Knowing Jesus is definitely not the only way. The new testament left a lot of parts out 😅. Jesus what he taught is a pretty good way to live well and be charitable, but if you only do good things so you go to heaven that cancels out the good.
*god creates problem*
*lets countless humans suffer endlessly and then get sent to eternal hellfire over the problem*
*sends a dude to die to save a fraction of those people*
Dang bro what a homie
"Hmm, today I will put two beings with free will in an enclosed space, and if they do this one specific action I will punish all of their bloodline for eons"
Also, remember, despite the fact that Jesus died to forgive your sins, you still can't sin or you're going to hell. Unless you uh... tell a priest or something? I dunno, the cognitive dissonance is why I disengaged from the Church to begin with
Don't worry bro, all you gotta do is accept Jesus as your Lord and savior and then you're good. That's how Dahmer got into heaven
I literally had a pastor tell me one time he didn't see an issue with that. Wasn't even trying to argue with the guy about religion. My friend was shipping out to the army and wanted me to go to church with him before he left (yes, he is every flavor of stupid a person can be), so I went and when the pastor asked if anyone there had not accepted Jesus, I raised my hand before I realized it was a rhetorical question.
So he hits me with the "see me after class" and starts trying to convert me and eventually I sort of lost my patience. I actually saw the moment a crack formed in his faith and I'm like you're the one who wanted this conversation, dude, I was trying to leave and go get lunch but no, here we are, debating whether or not god could be evil while I point out why an immortal omniscient person "dying" on the cross isn't actually a sacrifice
At one point I said "Jesus Christ" as an interjection, then looked at the ceiling with my hands together like 🙏 and said "sorry." The pastor's face stretched into a smirk and he's like "you say you're not a believer, then why did you apologize?" Bro because I'm sitting in a church talking to a preacher, I was being tongue in cheek.
Needless to say I did not go back the following Sunday
To be clear, God did not fix Job's life, he still murdered the guy's entire family and all his employees too for no reason other than a petty "bet" with the Devil that he never had to agree to.
Nope, God directly fucks with Job to win a bet with Satan in the original story. Lucifer mythology is almost a direct parallel to Prometheus, right down to being punished for interfering with God's plan for humanity
This is a common misunderstanding of Job, the "devil" here is not the devil of the New testament, it's a different role, kind of like a divine prosecutor
Which is why he's in heaven, talking with God, despite the devil having been banished from heaven. Think of it like a court case, Shaitan is helping God "prove" a case by acting as Job's prosecutor
Also the snake in the garden of Eden is not the devil, it's just a talking snake.
Thank you. People don’t seem to understand that the common conception of “satan” is a Christian (and later adopted by Islam) concept. Jews don’t typically believe in Satan being an actual demonic entity like Christianity teaches.
Christianity doesn’t depict Satan as a torturer. He’s being punished himself. There were dualist cults more based on Zoroastrian teachings that depict Satan as the evil counterpart to God, but that isn’t a Christian teaching.
> There were dualist cults more based on Zoroastrian teachings that depict Satan as the evil counterpart to God, but that isn’t a Christian teaching.
Christianity itself is just Zoroastrian flavoured Judaism. The devil boiling people in a cauldron of tar is an image going back at least to the early middle ages.
It's a Christian teaching because Christians teach it.
I meant that I know what I'm saying because I was raised in the Catholic Church. My apologies for not clarifying. But they do indeed teach this quite often.
>What are you referring to specifically?
I'm talking about what the average person was actually told by priests for centuries.
Not what some dusty fart wrote in a theological dissertation.
Dude you were saying that this has been common teaching for a thousand years. You shouldn’t be surprised if someone asks for any evidence.
Im not saying you weren’t told that by someone in your life, but pop culture depictions of Satan ruling hell are wrong. That isn’t what the Bible depicts, or what the Catholic catechisms say.
>Dude you were saying that this has been common teaching for a thousand years. You shouldn’t be surprised if someone asks for any evidence.
And I told you that the evidence is how it's been DEPICTED (satan torturing people) for centuries. Which you sarcastically dismissed as irrelevant.
>That isn’t what the Bible depicts,
No, it also doesn't say that Mary was taken to heaven, but that's something that Catholicism teaches.
>or what the Catholic catechisms say.
The modern catholic catechism is weirdly quiet on indulgences too.
It's almost like what's officially written down and what's said at the local parish *are not the same thing*
It may not be the actual doctrine, but it’s certainly what many American Christian’s seem to believe Satan to be. You gotta remember American evangelicals typically aren’t known for following source consistently
Yes, but that’s directly opposed to the “Prometheus” figure idea. Throughout the Old Testament the devil is described as an antagonist to humanity. This is later reaffirmed in the New Testament in his interactions with Jesus.
Prometheus was a friend of humanity, later rescued by Heracles for his friendship.
The entire point of this post is that the devil is only portrayed as an enemy to humanity in the Old Testament because the Bible is told from the perspective of YHVH and YHVH sympathizers. Kind of a "history is told by the victors" type of thing.
Yes the punishment in Eden was about disobedience. Satan's point is that being punished for disobeying a stupid rule is stupid.
Yes the punishment in Babel was about God punishing humanity for their hubris from His perspective. Satan's point is that the all powerful creator of the universe was somehow threatened by humans doing something impressive without his help or without glorifying him, and like a child he couldn't take it so he stopped the project.
And Job? First of all, God allowed this to happen *knowing* what would happen so he is exactly as complicit as Satan. Because God is actually cool with all of the suffering Satan wreaked as long as it is directed at people who ultimately don't or won't follow him (he just allowed it to happen to one of his loyal servants this time to prove a point). And oh, woo great, God restored his life in some fashion afterwards. His kids still fucking died. Gee thanks for the life lesson dude, I'm sure they were happy to be included in this experiment.
The entire point of the Bible that Satan deceived Eve, inciting rebellion for the selfish goal of being the being worshipoed instead of God. He questioned the legitimacy of God's rule, and the intentions of the people serving him, this is why he attacked Job as well. As he put it, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life." And to prove, that no matter what Satan does to Job, he won't betray God, God let Job endure the trials, while also not letting his life to be taken. And when Job proved that he is loyal, God then blessed him for it. This is literally the essence of the Bible - Satan rebelling, questioning God's rule, and then God putting into motion a plan to prove once and for all, that "It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps."
>And when Job proved that he is loyal, God then blessed him for it.
He literally gave him a *replacement family*.
If someone opened the door to my house for a murderer to kill my wife, but then said "chill, here's a different one", I'd be pretty pissed.
Basically, either Job would have to be an absolute irredeemable asshole without an ounce of care or love for his family to be happy with that arrangement.
Meanwhile God actively desires that kind of worshippers, and only cares about the worship itself.
Makes you think what sort of sociopath wrote that particular story.
The idea that Job's suffering is justified because he gets "restored" at the end doesn't actually resolve the moral issue. Losing children isn't undone by having more later; **human lives aren't interchangeable**. The point of the story isn't that God was right to allow it all, but that **even the most faithful can suffer unjustly**, and simplistic “God rewards the good” theology falls apart under real suffering. The ending isn’t a full moral resolution, it’s a literary closure. If anything, Job’s raw protest stands as a critique of blind religious optimism, not a validation of divine tests.
I mean your answer perfectly highlights the Epicurean Paradox that makes the idea of God being all good, all knowing, and all powerful contradictory and impossible. And naturally the only way to justify that is to hand-wave it with some "well God works in ways we don't understand" BS
Nah, an all-good God wouldn't let one of his loyal followers be tortured over a bet. The bet was that Job only worshipped God because his life was good, and taking that away would make him renounce his faith. Well he held his faith until he was blind and decrepit and his whole family was dead and the reason he was given for his suffering was "God works in ways outside your comprehension, maybe the hardships of your life aren't directly related to your personal sins."
Well wagers are not outside ot human comprehension, and you can't consider yourself all-good if you happily let one of your children live through hell to prove a point to your nemesis.
"Well he restored everything Job lost as a reward," yeah I guess ten children are easily replaceable to this God who clearly loves his children so much.
Totally fair to be disturbed by the story of Job—it *is* disturbing. But it's not meant to be a feel-good tale. It's a **deep exploration of suffering**, not a literal “bet” in the way we think of it. The book challenges the idea that good people always get good things. It actually pushes back against shallow religion—Job’s friends spout the kind of moral math you just laid out, and God rebukes *them*, not Job.
As for the Epicurean Paradox—Christians don’t “hand-wave” it away. Many wrestle with it deeply. But just because we can’t fully grasp how justice and love fit into a broken world doesn’t mean it’s BS. It means we’re not God. If God is real, infinite, and eternal, then it makes sense we might hit a limit in understanding His ways—especially in a world full of free will, generational trauma, and real evil.
Also, Job doesn’t just get "stuff" back—he gets *vindication*. And the story ends with a restored relationship, not just material blessings. That might not satisfy every objection, and that’s okay. But dismissing it as just “a bad bet” misses the whole emotional and theological depth of what the book is actually trying to wrestle with.
I actually appreciate your answer, although I disagree with about all of it.
If I kick my dog to see if he still loves me after, it doesn't justify my own actions just because my reasoning is outside of my dog's understanding. Even if I vindicate my dog after and pamper him the rest of his life to let him know me kicking him was not his fault, that doesn't really change the material effect of my actions. And those actions make me an evil person for being willing to inflict pain on someone I claim to have unconditional love for, especially if my reasoning comes down to wanting to experiment how far my subject's unconditional love for me will go.
The handwaving BS is more in regards to God rebuking the moral math of Job's friends, and Christian followers doing the same- the argument is not that God's motives are beyond human understanding, its that *God committing such horrible actions and still being considered "all-good" is beyond our understanding, presumably because God works on a different plane of morality.* and to that I call bullshit because human morals are all we have to go off and the reasons we're given for God's actions almost never vindicates the human suffering caused as a result. When compared to human morals, God's biblical actions are vindictive and vain.
And none of that is "outside of human understanding," everyone that knows what fanduel is knows that gambling and "deep explorations of suffering" are synonymous. God testing the loyalty of his subjects by testing the limits of their suffering is actually entirely comprehensible when compared to HUMAN nature.
Totally respect your pushback. But I think the key difference is this: **in your example, you're the one doing the harm directly**. In Job, God *permits* suffering rather than causing it outright. That’s still uncomfortable, for sure, but it shifts the dynamic. The story doesn’t try to excuse suffering, it wrestles with it openly, and even portrays Job arguing back against God, which is kind of the point. If God wanted blind loyalty, He wouldn't allow a book like Job to exist at all. The fact that the Bible includes that level of raw questioning says a lot about the kind of relationship it's pointing to.
God said that if mankind kept working together, there would be nothing that could stop them. Right before shutting Babel down.
The tower is about working together as one and achieving the impossible.
When the war of heaven concluded, God stood victorious, so he wrote history to make himself seem like the good guy. But there are hints that will allude to the truth:
God killed all of humanity and all animals, bar one family and a breeding pair for the animals. He killed around 25 million of our ancestors doing so. Then he forced that one family to reproduce through incest. The same incest he started humanity off with in the garden of Eden, if we're to believe the history God wrote.
God forced a baby on Mary before she turned 18, some say she was only 13 when he did so.
There are so many more examples that it might turn out that God is the bad one, we simply do not know. All we got to go by is the book he wrote through proxies on Earth.
I wouldn't be so cocksure about who's who.
I get why it sounds that way—it’s a dark and messy story if you only read it through a modern lens. But those events aren’t just brute facts; they’re part of a bigger narrative about justice, mercy, and human failure. The Bible doesn’t sugarcoat anything—it records the good, the bad, and the ugly, even from people of faith. That alone makes it different from propaganda. And yeah, questioning is fair—but assuming God’s the villain based on a surface read skips the deeper themes of grace, redemption, and human responsibility woven throughout.
It just makes more sense.
It's also a real historical Christian based theology.
It's been around longer than 'the devil' has.
This isn't "the devil is actually le good guy" because when people came up with this, 'the devil' didn't exist.
It just makes sense to conclude that old testament God and christ/Jesus aren't the same being. They act nothing alike. It was true in Rome and it's true today.
If I said Harry Potter was a story about an American kid in the 60s it wouldn’t be misinterpreting, it would just be having the facts of the story wrong.
I can somewhat get it for the Tower of Babel, but there is no excuse for the story of Job.
Whether it's God or Satan doing it, actively ruining the life of a perfectly pious worshipper to prove a point to your nemesis is inconceivably petty
You have a common misunderstanding of both Job and the garden of Eden.
The "devil" in Job is Shaitan, which is more of a sort of divine prosecutor in God's court. Not the one from the New testament, which is why it can take place in heaven, despite Lucifer being banished from there
The snake in the garden of Eden is just a talking snake, which is why God curses all snakes to crawl. It's not the devil in disguise
That's Matthew, not Job.
The character in Job is not the same one as in Matthew is what I'm trying to say, the one in Job is playing a function in God's Heavenly court.
Exactly, and later Christians reinterpreted the serpent in the garden of Eden to be the new version of the devil.
If you were to go back in time and talk to some pre Christian Jews about Satan in the garden of Eden, they would have no idea what you are talking about
I mean yeah, they are the ones who wrote it down.
There is a lot of old testament stuff that doesn't really fit in with the new testament, which requires things to be reinterpreted.
Or you run into problems like with Satan vs Shaitan, where one character has clearly evolved into a different function by the time of the new testament
Or the ideas of heaven/hell being where people go when they die, which are largely absent from the old testament.
Or even idea that there are no other gods. In the old testament, it says "no other gods before me," which technically allows for belief in other gods, as long as they are subordinate. It's henotheism vs monotheism, so a lot of the magic in the old testament (i.e. sorcerers turning their staffs into stakes) gets reinterpreted in the new testament through a lens of devils, which again is later reinterpreted in the medieval period to be hallucinations caused by demons, since at that point it would be heretical to say devils could actually help people do real magic.
It's a misconception, because viewing Satan as Shaitan creates internal contradictions within the Bible
Shaitan is just chilling with God in heaven in Job. Satan was cast from heaven permanently.
It's not the same character
Again, it’s a theological disagreement. The Catholic Church makes the claim they’re the same figure. It isn’t something the layman is doing accidentally.
Unless your opinion is that Christianity is the common misconception. Which again would just be a theological disagreement.
I feel like this is hitting a grey area of whether or not all theological interpretations are equally valid
For example, I could say that the snake in the garden of Eden is actually Jesus. You could call that a theological interpretation, but it certainly wasn't the intention of the people who wrote it. In that case, I would call it a misinterpretation.
The people who wrote Job clearly did not intend this to be the same figure who was cast from heaven, because he's still in heaven. So I suppose it's a theological difference in that it's a different theology, but you still have to reinterpret the text in a way it was not intended.
There is plenty of historical debate on what the old testament means to Christianity, both among scholars and Christians. If you want to believe these characters are the same, you should also be able to provide consistent theological explanations of why they act differently, and why Shaitan appears in heaven. Otherwise it's just a bad interpretation
I’m saying this literally the official stance of the Catholic Church, espoused by their catechisms.
They’ve made the case for it, I’m not going to just quote them.
I’m taking issue with you saying it’s a “common misconception” because it just isn’t. It’s an intentional decision and belief of Christianity.
Like it isn’t a “common misconception” that Islam teaches that Jesus was a prophet and the Talmud and Bible are corrupted. That’s just what they believe and what is taught.
You can say you disagree, that’s fine. But it is definitely not a common misconception. It’s a disagreement you have with the canon of Christianity.
I have never seen a serious theological interpretation of the Genesis 3 that posits the serpent was literally just a talking snake. Samael riding a serpent, Pistis Sophia or Sabaoth in disguise, Lucifer taking the form -- basically any interpretation is more valid than "yeah it was just a talking snake." The crawling on his belly and having his head crushed thing is almost ubiquitously read as a metaphor, not an origin story for why snakes don't have no legs.
That's because your theological interpretations are through the modern lens of Christianity. The idea of moral stories involving talking animals is present in some form in basically all ancient religions.
So were stories of "this is why X animal behaves/looks this way"
If you don't have the context of the New testament, there would be very little reason to think the snake is Satan because that character doesn't really exist in the old testament. The "Shaitan" referred to in places like Job functions more as a sort of divine prosecutor, and does not have an adversarial relationship with God.
>The crawling on his belly and having his head crushed thing is almost ubiquitously read as a metaphor, not an origin story for why snakes don't have no legs.
I would argue the entire thing is meant to be metaphorical. I'm not sure exactly how one grows a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What would you use as fertilizer, consciousness?
It's very clearly a story of why snakes crawl that got retconned by sequels. Fables about animals with moral lessons are very common around the world. There's one about why leopards have spots (because they were playing with fire).
Dude it's really not that complicated. If you start ordering the deaths of all babies because the pharaoh didn't listen to you, that's it fam, there's not that much more that needs to be said.
I'm not anti religion either, I think the religious message of love and peace by a loving god is fine, but don't try to twist your brain into the mass murdering baby killing dude being swell.
His wife did not die, no. She's there at the end telling him to curse God and die.
However his children definitely died.
Still has nothing to do with autonomy at all.
* **2 types of people** on earth: KJV: In this the Children of God are manifest, and the **children of the devil!** (Lucifer the Satan)
* KJV: Ye are all the children of Light, and the children of the Day: we are not of **the night, nor of darkness.**
* KJV: The field is the world; the Good seed are the Children of the Kingdom; but the **Tares are the children of the Wicked** one; The enemy that sowed **Tares is the Devil;**
* KJV: And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the **goats on the left**.-- And these shall go away into **Everlasting Punishment:** but the Righteous into Life Eternal!
* KJV: Then shall the Kingdom of Heaven be likened unto ten virgins, -- five of them were Wise, and **five were Foolish**. ( 50% and 50%!) But He answered and said, Verily I say unto you, **I know you not!** ( And these shall go away into **Everlasting Punishment**: but the Righteous into Life Eternal!)
* KJV: Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the **children of disobedience**." and more...
* Only devils children rejecting to be a religious: Bible clearly explained that the word 'Religion' stands for: Helping those in need and obeying the Golden Rule. All others are False religions, Atheism, Paganism, Anti-religion, Ideology, Pantheism, Anti-theism, Heretics, Clericalism, Cynicism, Philosophy, Agnosticism, Fake Religions, Mammons...
* "Pure **Religion** and undefiled before God and the Father is this: To visit (Help) the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted (Golden Rule) from the world!" James 1:27
Regardless of any of Satan's acts in the Bible, is it not true that God is responsible for more heinous acts? And in fact, anything Satan has done would God not ultimately be responsible for as well?
Satanist still can't explain why I should still worship a less powerful being instead of the more powerful (even cruel) one which casted the being which should be worship into hell?
Obviously has God the power over the afterlife, why should I risk being in a bad afterlife for worshipping a lesser being if Satan can't give you anything in return to you?
Sorry but I value a good or neutral afterlife more than being in a bad one even if I don't worshipped the morally correct being in my current form which in the end turns to dirt
In some interpretations, Satan tricks mankind into committing the Original Sin, eating from the fruit of knowledge. Thus, according to this, our knowledge, the things that elevates us above other species, literally comes from the Devil. God created Man as a beast in his image, but it was the Serpent who let us become humans.
We still were humans before.
Take other religion for example in Greek religion Zeus punished the one which gave fire to us humans.
Of course you can critizies that the Gods want obedient worshippers but still they are the most powerful beings why should I take the moral correct stance but risk being in a bad afterlife?
It's a dumb Religion coating themselves into moral superiority but without any benefits or more truth besides that.
Non Satanist but paganism enjoyer here. Satanist don't believe in Satan the same way Christians believe on God. At least not the Oficial denominations. They believe in Satan as the embodiment of liberation, pleasure, and fight againts the opresors. Satan is the one who raised against the most powerful and opresive being ever, even if you believe he lost.
Satanist are basically Christians because they still need to believe what is the Canon of the Bible to have this Image of Satan.
You can only characterise Satan as he's portrayed in the Bible and there is no such thing as "believe that he lost" he clearly lost if we go by the religious text which Satanist build upon.
wrong, satanist are genuinly demon worshipers. Ex south africa church of satan founder exposes them. RIaan swiegelaar on youtube. They do perform ritualistic sacrifice, witchcraft and more. They just put up a public image of deception
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f6DZOqubb0&ab\_channel=WideAwakePodcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f6DZOqubb0&ab_channel=WideAwakePodcast)
Ok, so I guess all Christians are illiterate racist pedophiles, correct?. No. Because is a very big religion and of course there's some exceptions. Beside, please don't use a YouTube potcast as evidence ever again, people are going to make fun of you.
Or, hear me out, kinda controversial statement here: Don't be a dick to anyone. And help everyone... No need for any higher being for you to decide what is good or bad...
An issue one might run into with that statement is the criteria that qualifies a person “being a dick” is much different in what’s socially acceptable in current times. If you think this is BS, look at current trends on social media.
The whole point of organized religion is establishment of tradition and “universal truths” that will remain a truth for all of time, being an unchanging moral compass that people can rely upon when presented with complex situations in their lives.
Yes, there are people who take it the wrong way, or warp these truths to meet a personal agenda at the expense of others. Those people are literally called out in the Bible in New Testament.
Mostly the "no need for any higher being" part. I've got a good few years on you (not that I'm particularly old, either), but I was pretty staunchly atheist at your age. Life gets harder and harder to explain the older you get, questions become harder to answer. At this point, I can't really see how the universe or whatever substrate it exists as a part of could exist without there being something guiding the wheel.
I don't mean any disrespect by this, btw, I just recognized a bit of myself in the way you speak. It's good to use empathy regardless of our beliefs, and I hope that's something you don't ever lose sight of
Cheers 🥂
Just because we don’t understand something does not mean there is an intentional guiding force. People didn’t always understand why the stars move in the sky or why things always fall down. And they certainly would never have understood that those two seemingly unrelated things are actually caused by the same force.
We learn more about the universe every year, and nothing we’ve ever learned has ever relied on a guiding hand to be possible. We ascribe things to god that we can’t explain, up until the point we can explain it. It then just becomes reality, and the mysteries after it become the realm of god, at least for a while.
The universe simply is, because if it wasn’t, we wouldn’t exist to contemplate it. Life on a planet may be extremely rare, but on trillions of worlds, even rare things are bound to happen at least once. We happen to be on the planet where it happened because if we weren’t, we wouldn’t exist to wonder about the chances.
Ah the "God of the gaps" argument and the weak anthropic principle, classics. I used to rely heavily on those, but anymore I can't ignore the fact that consciousness is something extraordinary, and that if we are able to create reason within the universe, then it's not exactly a leap to suggest that reason is an essential part of the universe.
You can say the universe simply is, but *why* is it? *Why* is there a universe which is capable of perceiving itself through living creatures? Yes, we the sapient, sentient beings inherently have to find ourselves in one, but that doesn't mean that a universe should exist that we can experience. The fact that we're here is astonishing. The universe could very well exist in an abstract superposition perpetually, absent of any observers, yet here we are.
There's this line of thinking that became popular in science over the last twenty years or so, that it doesn't need to explain things like *why,* or that there is no why, or that it is simply unknowable and therefore not worth speculating on. But the greatest minds in all of human history were ubiquitously not atheists until the Stephen Hawking era. A lot of physicists actually saw their discoveries as evidence of God, not the other way around.
Dismissing the universe as a random chain of events that just happened to lead to the single most confounding thing imaginable -- conscious experience -- does a disservice to the foundational purpose of science: to find answers. At the risk of invoking a compositional fallacy, the fact that consciousness exists in humans can absolutely be read as evidence that a similar property is held on a more macrocosmic scale, in the same way that gravitational effects can be measured between both blood cells and galaxy clusters. Fractal iterations of the rules of reality, i.e. the laws of physics, tell us that Hermetics were absolutely right about one thing: as above, so below.
Consciousness is baked into our universe. Concepts -- as in concepts themselves, the *concept* of a concept, abstract thought -- on the surface don't seem to need to exist for a system of quantum oscillations to interact with one another, yet those quantum interactions have apparently given rise to intangible things like thoughts and ideas; so it's entirely possible that thoughts *are* a fundamental ingredient of existence. We can't separate the substrate of quantum particles from the reality that we experience, and we can't separate the reality that we experience from that substrate of quantum particles.
This leads to the strong anthropic principle, where maybe a universe *must* give rise to conscious observers in order for existence to be a "thing." If consciousness is then a fundamental necessity for the universe to exist, then it -- or something similar on a larger or simply different scale -- is very likely to be a fundamental component of whatever causes a universe to burst into existence in the first place.
I look at things like M-theory and its 11th dimension, and thinks like eternal inflation and the speculations around how the inflaton field should work, and I see a vast, infinite, all encompassing magnum opus of reality that includes everything that can and will ever be, and everything that can't. I mentioned fractalization earlier, and the most fascinating thing about it to me is that there is an internal "infinity" of sorts that mirrors ideas like the 11th spatial dimension and the inflaton field: imagination.
The amount of thoughts a human mind is capable of generating is *literally* infinite, especially if you look at the whole of humanity as a collective. If we follow the postulations of M-theory, the spatial dimensions between 6 and 10 are where all possible and *impossible* realities reside, with their own nested sets of lower spatial dimensions and the temporal dimension. Things like Boltzmann universes -- configurations that would be impossible under normal circumstance and could only arise through astronomically unlikely statistical mechanism -- universes of last Thursdayisms, universes that would pop up *in media res* so to speak, in the middle of something that would be impossible in ours but exists for a brief window of time before collapsing in on itself, they would all exist in an abstract, distant space and time. It would encompass all imaginable and unimaginable compositions of atoms, include laws of physics that are nothing like our own.
But the implication of that is that every mental image a living creature can ever produce *exists* in that space, that it *is* itself one of those Boltzmann universes. Our act of thinking about it makes it real to us, and the mechanism by which we are able to think about it is encoded in that higher dimensional space. And, in a similar fashion, our experience in this universe is defined by our cognitive experience of it. To nod toward the Hermetics again, it's as within, as without.
And when I look at all of those connections, how astonishingly beautiful and intricate the picture becomes, I simply can't reason away that there has to be something that can only be described as a "higher power" behind it all. Because consciousness is a fundamental part of the universe, and that means we have a pretty decent reason to assume there's something analogous to it on a higher level.
(Sorry this is long as shit)
but what is the reason that makes you need to know how to explain those unexplainable things? can't you just leave them be? because when you fabricate reasons for things that exist and happen can you really trick yourself to believe it?
i am 23 as well and got the same talk from some slightly older folks like you in this manner but i just can't buy it. I am fine with not being able to know everything and don't need a coping mechanism for that. The incomprehensibleness of the universe is amazing and open to many theories, including any type of "god" to be real, but i just think it is not for us to have a final say in. it is good mental excercise and philosophical thinking though
I'll spare you the details but my life has unfortunately reached a point where finding some answers have become a necessity (not because of tragedy or suffering or the usual reasons, there have been a lot of *extremely weird* and unlikely things happen to me, to the point where my last therapist deadass thought I was psychic). Mental illness has been ruled out by three psychologists, neurological issues have been ruled out by a neurologist (twice), and any other possible medical issues have been ruled out as well.
I spent most of my life believing the universe just kinda happened and things are unknowable, but right before I turned 28 weird shit started happening and has continued to just ramp up. I assumed I must have developed schizophrenic or become delusional but a few years and several doctors later there appears to be nothing physically or mentally wrong with me, so it seems the only way I'll be able to even begin to understand my experiences is to understand the universe as thoroughly as I can -- which will inherently mean I still don't understand all of it, but I can't really just let it lie at "it's incomprehensible" anymore. There are too many real world occurrences that have directly shaped my life that confound comfortable explanation or probability anymore, so I personally do kind of need answers
And I'm well aware that what I just said sounds like schizoposting, but apparently it's not. Life is just... weird.
That's kinda funny, because I was raised a Christian (Protestant). A few years ago I decided I don't believe that anymore. That happened partially because most bible stories sound like fairy tales, but primarily that my mom got a terminal illness. She's one of the nicest people I know and wouldn't hurt a fly (well she would, but you get what I mean...)
If an omnipotent God exists then it's a cruel God that would allow for all evil to happen to good people. If God isn't cruel and can't change it, he isn't omnipotent. That was proof for me that there is no God. All good and evil is shaped by the human mind caused by their own circumstances of living
Saying Old Testament and trying to use the Jewish name for god while unironically not understanding that the Old Testament doesn’t have a Satan or anything like that- peak Christian kid questioning something they’ve learned through twenty intentional mistranslations and rebelling against mommy and daddy.
Serpent was supposed to tempt Adam and Eve. That was their purpose as a servant of god. They were disobedient to god and failed their duty to obey. God punishes them for disobedience. It’s stupid, but that’s what actually occurs in the Old Testament. And yeah, no shit Sherlock, the Old Testament does not describe god as some omnibenevolent thing. God in the Old Testament and the understanding of Judaism literally self describes as jealous, spiteful, and vengeful. The key difference is that it has chosen a people and will protect them so long as they are obedient and worship.
Also gets dumber because the other things mentioned are punishments for hubris and greed. Job gets way stranger the more you read it, but essentially, you cannot read it with a modern framework of morality. Job’s life and world are not only *restored*, but *greatly expanded upon and improved* as a reward for suffering in loyalty. It’s fucked, but that’s just how people back then saw it and understood it because their framework in which they wrote the story is fundamentally different.
And to get this out of the way: the infallible word of the Old Testament is an entirely Christian thing. For Judaism, it’s believed that god knows full well that we are fickle beings with great intelligence to interpret the words given to us. For Jews, it’s entirely expected that you come to your own understanding and conclusions or else god would have explicitly said otherwise and made it as clear as possible (such as with the commandments that are absolute). This is a weird Christian thing to Jews, but that’s ok. Just don’t misunderstand it using a Christian lens and use the Old Testament like the Christian context works in place of a Jewish context.
It's like someone got a cosmic horror story and made it into a religion. I don't think there's anything else quite like it, barring any weird modern-day cults.
i don't care who the devil sends, I am not sacrificing my newborn to Baal
https://preview.redd.it/5ztffspnchbf1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e244992329f0b4474692057a88a6c72c6d312b62
Yeah, the prometeic interpretations of lucifer are as old as the faith itself. Nothing new. I personally like them more, since it put humans on a place of agency. And not of mere beings being to cause and endure suffering in order to reach a paradise.
Since I moved away from Christianity it is so genuinely weird to see people argue about which concept of God is real and truer. Because I can't understand why is it so acceptible that a higher sentient personal creator is a thing in the first place? I mean seriously, to me it's like arguing which dragon ball character is more powerful. But everybody agrees that at least one of them is real. I find so much comfort in accepting that there is (probably) no higher (divine) power and thus no rules that I need to follow in order to live a fulfilling life. Also religious people in my experience already seem to be pretty existentialist with their life and "create meaning", you know. It's just that they say it's God that is most important. In reality, they provide for their families, advance careers, further science or just stumble around.
I think people wrote stuff down after seeing weird and unexplainable stuff on natural dmt and stuff like that.
I heard Moses was eating that damn bush wich contained DMT.
Perhaps DMT entities are the way to go for yourself.
Or holy Mushrooms Cultures 🥸
Anon is Abrahamic. Not all higher powers are the Great Angry Dad In the Sky. Some make contemplation of self, God, and everything under the sun the whole of the law.
208 Comments
Horrorifying@reddit
Mammoth-Sun-5186@reddit
ThatLineOfTriplets@reddit
Historianof40k@reddit
Mammoth-Sun-5186@reddit
Winter_Low4661@reddit
NoPseudo____@reddit
Historianof40k@reddit
Mammoth-Sun-5186@reddit
KingdomOfPoland@reddit
Winter_Low4661@reddit
ReBeastzbruh1659@reddit
Winter_Low4661@reddit
ReBeastzbruh1659@reddit
Winter_Low4661@reddit
ReBeastzbruh1659@reddit
Winter_Low4661@reddit
ThatLineOfTriplets@reddit
ReBeastzbruh1659@reddit
tauhou_@reddit
ReBeastzbruh1659@reddit
tauhou_@reddit
Jakenumber9@reddit
ThatLineOfTriplets@reddit
Mammoth-Sun-5186@reddit
SukulGundo@reddit
Jakenumber9@reddit
Historianof40k@reddit
ThatLineOfTriplets@reddit
CCCyanide@reddit
largeEoodenBadger@reddit
Mammoth-Sun-5186@reddit
Bentman343@reddit
handouras@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
Patroklus42@reddit
ThePolishBayard@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
dirschau@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
dirschau@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
LordDemonWolfe@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
LordDemonWolfe@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
LordDemonWolfe@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
dirschau@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
dirschau@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
dirschau@reddit
ThePolishBayard@reddit
Guglielmowhisper@reddit
Aozora404@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
exor15@reddit
JustAThrowaway712@reddit
dirschau@reddit
ReBeastzbruh1659@reddit
Mammoth-Sun-5186@reddit
No-Care6414@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
No-Care6414@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
Makualax@reddit
ReBeastzbruh1659@reddit
Makualax@reddit
ReBeastzbruh1659@reddit
No-Care6414@reddit
thePiscis@reddit
OneTrueAlzef@reddit
Valerica-D4C@reddit
Superkritisk@reddit
ReBeastzbruh1659@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
PuritanicalPanic@reddit
AstroBearGaming@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
Upexus@reddit
tsoneyson@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
dirschau@reddit
lk_22@reddit
The_Nude_Mocracy@reddit
nosnek199@reddit
SleepArt@reddit
CCCyanide@reddit
Patroklus42@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
Patroklus42@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
Patroklus42@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
Patroklus42@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
Patroklus42@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
Patroklus42@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
Mammoth-Sun-5186@reddit
Patroklus42@reddit
Winter_Low4661@reddit
stillmahboi@reddit
Familiar_Factor_2555@reddit
WoolooOfWallStreet@reddit
The_Junton@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
The_Junton@reddit
Horrorifying@reddit
GPT_2025@reddit
NameRevolutionary727@reddit
Renopton@reddit
MutableSpy@reddit
Flaky_Explanation@reddit
SetYourGuitarsToKill@reddit
ccountup@reddit
InterestingFig7375@reddit
Kiygre@reddit
Qloudy_sky@reddit
Anil-Gan0@reddit
Qloudy_sky@reddit
sevenliesseventruths@reddit
Qloudy_sky@reddit
dhtikna@reddit
sevenliesseventruths@reddit
dhtikna@reddit
dhtikna@reddit
ElectroNikkel@reddit
Tallgeese-Lover@reddit
SaltyFlavors@reddit
ElementofPower@reddit
Thenderick@reddit
bell37@reddit
Mammoth-Sun-5186@reddit
Thenderick@reddit
Mammoth-Sun-5186@reddit
Yeti_Prime@reddit
Mammoth-Sun-5186@reddit
tolgapacaci@reddit
Mammoth-Sun-5186@reddit
Mammoth-Sun-5186@reddit
sevenliesseventruths@reddit
Thenderick@reddit
ReBeastzbruh1659@reddit
Mr_Fahrenheittt@reddit
xsynrg@reddit
russhour777@reddit
Van_Healsing@reddit
TenHoumo@reddit
DrEpileptic@reddit
Zorkonio@reddit
PurplurPuzzlehead111@reddit
INCUMBENTLAWYER@reddit
TheManWithAStand@reddit
Designated_Lurker_32@reddit
Correct_Inside1658@reddit
balfringRetro@reddit
HailtronZX@reddit
Affectionate-Cod4152@reddit
Dissasterix@reddit
saythealphabet@reddit
Mister_Bossmen@reddit
Super_Saiyan_Sudoku@reddit
PunkNarcissus@reddit
AdOnly9012@reddit
ToughBadass@reddit
JehannaPrince@reddit
PunkNarcissus@reddit
No-Care6414@reddit
PunkNarcissus@reddit
sevenliesseventruths@reddit
PunkNarcissus@reddit
sevenliesseventruths@reddit
PunkNarcissus@reddit
parkourse@reddit
No-Care6414@reddit
PunkNarcissus@reddit
TraumaPerformer@reddit
thesonoftheleviathan@reddit
stillmahboi@reddit
untakenu@reddit
GumCuzzler21@reddit
Laxhoop2525@reddit
ChoiceFudge3662@reddit
Grug_The_Farmer@reddit
Affectionate_Money14@reddit
sevenliesseventruths@reddit
Advanced_Court501@reddit
VladC12@reddit
No-Care6414@reddit
TheOneGreyWorm@reddit
Eastern_Mist@reddit
Venom933@reddit
Pullsberry_Dough_Boy@reddit
TheNewOldHobbyist@reddit
Kicooi@reddit
Notonmypenisyoudont@reddit
Fflamddwyn@reddit
An8thOfFeanor@reddit
Capnmarvel76@reddit
cooljerry53@reddit
Unkindlake@reddit
victor4700@reddit
tomeir@reddit
harveyshinanigan@reddit
mr_dr_personman@reddit