A lot of bickering about who is at fault, but at the end of the day it will come down to the Police officer who writes up the accident. They will consider the rules of the road, not the rules of the racetrack.
It will probably be something like 75% BMW/25% Porsche if I had to speculate, but really it's a guess. And the insurance mess will be very complicated, Misha said that UK insurance companies will likely go after the owner (BMW) for the money afterwards (will probably be well in excess of $100,000).
This could have been avoided if the M2 driver didn’t pull to the right on a corner where you stay left/middle leading the Porsche driver think M2 is letting them pass.
This could also been avoided if the BMW driver used their mirrors.
This could ofc also been avoided if the Porsche driver drove extra safe.
I disagree about the patient part. I think the Porsche driver is definitely patient. Didn’t try anything until BMW give him space and then BMW decides to take the space back cutting into a corner you don’t even need to cut in for.
Thats what happens when foreigners/tourists come to a race track not knowing how to drive, the rules, how to keep to the right when they are 80kmh slower on the corner than they should be. Locals and people who know the track and how to drive it fast get angry at being impeded multiple times every lap and drive aggressively. This is the case with public karting too, if you can relate to that better. If the bimmer and people like him knew the rules (esp keep right when you are slow) fast drivers wouldn’t be taking such small gaps.
How about you fkin read what I said? What the fuck is it that is elitist about saying that he should keep right if he doesn’t know how to drive fast on the track? When he doesn’t, well shit I wonder what happens…? Do you even race? If not I can guess why you can’t relate to the fact that people who can drive somewhat fast get impatient with people who can’t because such people impeding you every lap every time you are on track is a fucking big annoyance. It’s not elitist to wish for slower people to not impede faster ones its fucking called being safe you dork
This could have been avoided if the BMW driver had a modicum of awareness, but BMW drivers dont know what their mirrors are for so maybe our expectations were too high.
You sound like someone that's never done one of these touristfarten drives.
I did one with a company that provided prepped cars and some instruction. I remember a few specific rules they had to avoid these kinds of incidents:
You should NOT be racing or seriously timing yourself
You should NOT assume the car ahead sees you because the car ahead could have actually no previous track experience
And your should NOT be making a pass mid-turn
Porsche driver was mostly at fault for this and ruined the evening for everyone else looking to do some driving because this crash probably closed the track for the day
He drives tens of laps every week, the ring is full of crashes everyday, has multiple track closures and at least one yellow flag every session. Compared to that the guy doesn’t have many crashes at all for the whole span of time that he has been there for. He knows the place much better than you or me, he lives there lol. Why do you think your opinions is more trustworthy than an actual professional race car driver with experience totalling up to over a decade. Haha what a clown lol hilarious
Yes. It could've. You're not wrong. But that doesn't mean that it also could've avoided if the Porsche driver took a more cautious and patient approach.
If you had the choice to crash or not, even if that meant slowing down a tiny bit, would you not take that?
By a miracle everyone survived in this situation, but the person you replied to is making a "the graveyard is filled with people who had the right of way" type of argument.
This isn't racing though. The slower car is supposed to move over, even if it means sacrificing your beautiful apex. There is a reason why the Nurburgring explicitly bans lap timing on open days.
It not being racing is exactly why the Porsche is at fault. There is no reason to make that pass there unless you have confirmation that the other car sees you.
His confirmation was literally when the bmw moved to the right.
If that wasn't a confirmation, why did the bmw driver move so far to the right anyway? Don't say "racing line" bc they weren't racing, so bmw driver shouldn't be so adamant about keeping his racing line. He definitely should've sewn that big porsche on the left — the Porsche had almost passed the bmw too, until he struck the Porsche's rear right.
That's what I'm also implying, M2 had no basis for taking apexes the whole time if this was a public, 2 lane, unmarked road with a faster car coming in trying to overtake from the left (which usually is the norm to overtake from).
The GT3 shouldn't have attempted it because he should have seen by the BMW being all over the road that he was an idiot. But, as far as who was in the right under the rules, that was a safe pass. BMW moved way over which is a clear indication of letting him by. If BMW just held the normal racing line, the GT3 doesn't try it.
You can't guarantee a safe pass as the overtaking car when the car being overtaken is driven by a blind moron.
Touristenfahrten is NOT a trackday. You cannot go on the website or hit the track without being reminded several times that you're supposed to drive like you're on a glorified backcountry road, not like you're doing the Nürburgring 24h.
That's why they banned timing laps, that's why they banned overtaking on the right, and that's why their rules make reference to § 3 Absatz 1 of the german traffic code several times over:
"Anyone driving a vehicle may only drive so fast that the vehicle is constantly under control. In particular, the speed must be adapted to the road, traffic, visibility and weather conditions as well as to personal abilities and the characteristics of the vehicle and load. [...]"
They also ban gopros and other cameras for the same reasons. They don't want clout chasers risking lives for a sick tiktok clip.
Even private track days highly encourage driving ettiquite of signaling right to move over when you're letting a trailing driver pass and not passing on insides of corners...especially not without a signal the other driver knows you're doing it and is letting you. Sometimes you have to wait for a straight to get by slower drivers. It's not a race, and is not an invitation to drive like you're playing Forza Online. People do die.
Here is the info from the track day I did with DSK. Translated, it explicity prohibits the driving behavior of the Porsche driver here.
DSK-Trackdays: No competition.
Another important aspect of the DSK track days is their orientation: They are explicitly not motorsport events that focus on achieving top speeds or determining the shortest driving time. In general, the Free Driving is not competitive. Rather, they are tourist reconnaissance trips that focus on the joy of driving on closed routes, with the aim of improving road safety. This not only contributes to a relaxed driving experience, but also minimizes the risk for everyone involved. Accordingly, each participant must behave in such a way that he does not endanger other participants through his behavior. According to the StVO, overtaking is only allowed on the left side. Likewise, the imperative of mutual consideration applies.
It's not an actual trackday to be fair - it's basically an open day where the track is treated like an open road with two virtual lanes (with the lane marker missing). Yes, the M2 was all over the place, but that car has UK plates on so the driver is presumably on the right hand side of the car.
Assuming general public road rules, it could be argued that the GT3 was way too impatient and divebombed before he knew he could clear the M2 safely. That said, the M2 driver does seem to be completely unaware of their surroundings - the 911 had its nose ahead at the point of contact (so should have been easily visible from the M2 and not in its blind spot), not to mention a 911 GT3 at full noise isn't exactly quiet.
No, it works the opposite here. Regular driving rules apply.
It's on the car changing lanes. Left is the passing lane and right is normal. The Porshe was passing in the correct lane, and the M2 encroached in his lane when he wasn't even passing.
Except no, not at all like that. Snowboarding/Skiing is a largely gravity driven sport. You have limited ability to stop or start quickly and people obviously don't have rear view mirrors built into their heads, unlike cars.
On a race track, especially at the ring, drivers are required to look behind them for traffic and yield to the right when safe to do so. BMW appeared to have yielded and then cut back across. Either he didn't see the 911 (BMW's fault), or he deliberately baited him to pass and then closed the door.
BMW driver should get a lifetime ban from the ring.
No. I've driven the ring for two days in a private track day event (I just paid to join in with a driving club's track days) and trust me it is made abundantly clear there that you do not pass without the leading driver using the right turn signal and moving over letting you know they see you and will let you pass. This was hammered home by the driving instructor I paid to have with me the first 4 laps.
Tourist days, track days...it doesn't matter dude. It's still not a race. You're an amateur driving with other amateurs of various skill levels, not driving in Formula 1. The main objective is to have fun and not get hurt, not hurt anyone else, and not lose your car.
Porsche driver attempts to make a pass on the inside of a corner with no room to do it, at 180 km/hr, with no indication the BMW driver even knows he's there.
Trust me on this - it's very hard to drive on a track that hilly, that windy, that narrow at track speeds while also keeping perfect tabs on the vehicles behind you. Sometimes all the sudden a $300k supercar materializes out of nowhere and blows by you like you're standing still. It's not as simple to do with little experience as you want it to be. No driving sim of the ring does the g forces and large elevation changes justice. It's like driving a roller coaster.
I don't see the BMW yielding at all. The car was all over the track the whole video. Don't people usually use their right signal to indicate yielding at the Ring? (Insert BMW driver joke here). I think the BMW driver was not paying attention to their mirrors and the Porsche definitely should not have made the pass
Even if it is a track day, you're not supposed to risk this. This is the info attached to signing up for the track day I did the other year, google translated to English.
DSK-Trackdays: No competition.
Another important aspect of the DSK track days is their orientation: They are explicitly not motorsport events that focus on achieving top speeds or determining the shortest driving time. In general, the Free Driving is not competitive. Rather, they are tourist reconnaissance trips that focus on the joy of driving on closed routes, with the aim of improving road safety. This not only contributes to a relaxed driving experience, but also minimizes the risk for everyone involved. Accordingly, each participant must behave in such a way that he does not endanger other participants through his behavior. According to the StVO, overtaking is only allowed on the left side. Likewise, the imperative of mutual consideration applies.
Trackdays are just essentially private touristenfahrten. You still are explicity not supposed to take risks, try to race, try to hit top speeds possible, and try to set lap times. Gopros are banned and lap timing is banned for this reason.
In two days at the ring, I didn't see a single person attempt a pass like this. It's just idiotic. Could have or should have doesn't matter when there is no room for error and the consequences are likely severe injury or death of one or both participants. You're not racing. Period. Pass on a straight or when given the turn signal indication that you are being allowed to do so. Especially at 180 fucking kmhr.
It's Touristenfahrten. BMW definitely at fault in my eyes. On these days you ONLY pass on the left and keep right unless actively passing.
Being charitable to the BMW driver he did not catch the Porsche coming up in the rearview and went to cut a line, but still that's the BMWs error for not spotting the faster car.
Exactly, it's not easy to blame either party right away. The porsche driver attacked really aggressively for tourist rounds.. but like the initial comment of yours, the m2 should've stayed to the right. Perhaps he just assumed that the gt3 would slow down and stick behind him till the end of the corner? Nonetheless, it's done now.. the only thing that matters is that everyone's safe
Yes, but those tracks also have marshals who will black flag cars like the BMW that drive erratically and ignore their mirrors. Point by passing still requires drivers to pay attention to their surroundings, otherwise you just can't ever pass.
Sure, but also this doesn't happen.
I was just replying to the notion of "I only do private rentals and not track days because of this stuff"
Well this stuff doesn't really happen.
Once you get out of novice group, the expectation is that to you know your car and the track and you should understand where faster cars are you going to be planning to pass
It is 100% the BMW driver's fault. What's particularly disgusting is all the commenters in the BMW sub that are gaslighting and blaming the Porsche for this LOL. What a bunch of clowns. I feel like the stereotype of BMW drivers being assholes that don't know how to drive is the most accurate of all car/driver stereotypes.
The reason people are saying this is because this happened during a tourist open day, not a track day.
Watch the footage again and instead of looking at it like it's an onboard camera of a race car, consider it as an open public road with no speed limit.
It starts looking like the BMW driver's incompetence meeting the Porsche driver's impatience.
It's the Porsches fault. Passing in corners is banned. AND passing cars are responsible for ensuring that any overtakes are done safely, which is generally done by waiting for slower cars to move to the right and put on their right turn signal. The Porsche tried to pass without that acknowledgement and in a corner. I have little idea how people are justifying this being the BMW drivers fault.
They regulations refer several times to German Driving law indicating that it is the responsibility of each driver to ensure they are not driving too fast to safely avoid hazards or weather and that they have a responsibility to ensure overtakes can be done safely before doing so. In their instructional videos they also say do not pass in corners.
The BMW was clearly inexperienced and still tried to hit the apex without seeing the Porsche. The porsche got impatient and passed even though the BMW didn’t signal to the right that he was letting him by. Nurburgring has some weird rules on these public days but personally I put them both at fault. Both could have easily prevented this and the experienced Porsche driver should have known better
I don't understand why people excuse the BMW because it was a "fun" day and not an organized race event. The rules are the rules and the BMW was obligated to yield there and he actually appeared to be doing so because his line was so erratic, which baited the pass in the first place.
The BMW driver has no business being on the ring or any other race track. Zero situational awareness and zero knowledge of how to act on a race track.
Porsche driver shouldn't have tried to pass there because it was clear the BMW driver was either malicious or incompetent and its better not to risk you quarter million dollar sports car on someone else's malice or incompetence, but as far as "legal" blame goes it was 100% on the BMW.
Yes, slower vehicles are obligated to yield, but only when safe to do so. The apex of a corner is not a safe place to yield or overtake in any sense of the imagination, unless your last name is Verstappen and you're racing at Spa. The yield must also be communicated with a signal.
Sure M2 is at fault here but you never overtake at that corner at the ring unless you're absolutely sure that you can overtake them with pure speed. You can't really judge and trust everyone around you in an open session like you can in a trackday. Yes the M2 had 0 situational awareness but the 3RS also had terrible judgement to pass at that particular corner. Just wait and pass on the long straight after goddamnit. Why risk it through such a narrow kink even when you were already going off track? I wouldn't push there if I was in the 3RS.
I refuse to do open track days. I’d rather book out the place with a bunch of people I can trust to drive their cars responsibly and predictably and obey track rules.
The most important thing is that everyone is ok, regardless of who was at fault. That said, Porsche is pretty clearly at fault here.
I have only done a few laps on the Nurburgring, but the rules about overtaking were pretty clear. If you come upon slower traffic, you are supposed to wait for the slower cars to move to the right AND signal to the right, indicating they will stay right for you to pass on the left.
The BMW moved to the right, which looked like giving space for the Porsche to pass, but they did not signal. It is possible the BMW did not see the Porsche come up on them and was just moving right to get wide before the next turn. Or, they saw the Porsche but didn't think it would come up on them before the next turn, so they planned to apex the next turn then move over for it. Because there was no signal from the BMW, the Porsche was not cleared to pass at that point and is at fault for the crash.
All cars are supposed to keep an eye on their mirrors and move right when faster cars approach from behind. The BMW should have been more aware and allowed the Porsche to pass before the curve. But the BMW not noticing the faster vehicle from behind does not make the crash their fault if they did not signal that they were allowing a safe pass.
If you wait for everyone in front to signal to the right to pass them on the Nurburgring you can not pass half the people and you will create a loong line behind you. Some simply drive on the right and/or give you enough space one way or another.
The BMW driver was simply unaware, he moved too far to the right which the GT3 driver assumed it was the BMW giving space. Watching the clip I assumed the same. Wrong assumption for sure but with the amount of time the gt3 rs spent behind the m2 and m2 moving too far to the right; it is pretty astonishing that the m2 driver hasnt seen the Porsche at all.
It's the Nordschleife and it's Touristenfahrten, you have to keep checking your mirrors, every corner is dangerous. Whatever you drive, there is someone much faster than you coming from behind. M2 moved to the right after 6+ seconds of having Porsche in its vision(mirrors) and Porsche spent 8+ seconds in total in the vision of the driver before driving into the blind spot.
I am sure if the M2 didn't move too far to the right Porsche driver would have waited. I think Porsche driver with his experience sees the M2 driver moving too far to the right and assumes this is the M2 giving space. What probably happened however is M2 driver moved too far to the right thinking that is the driving line not seeing the Porsche.
It's the responsibility of the passing driver to make the pass safely.
I believe this is Schwedenkreuz where I would avoid going two wide even in a race.
The racing line takes the BMW to the right.
On touistenfahrten overtaking is controlled by turn signals which were not given.
There's no reason to make assumptions or to be impatient. There is nothing to win, the times don't matter, and the driving enjoyment is not compromised being held up for a couple more seconds into a hairpin.
The passing driver has to make a safe pass. But the passing driver can't control the car being overtaken. Here, the BMW moved way off line to the right, which was most drivers would have taken as an invitation to pass, then once the GT3 was making the pass he chopped back across, again not on the proper line.
If you require that drivers only pass when they can guarantee some moron won't completely abandon the racing line and chop across the track without checking their mirrors, you will end up with a parade of cars with zero over takes.
It’s called Kottenborn, the corner before Schwedenkreuz where you stay to the left/middle. That is why M2 moving right is odd and Porsche driver thinks the M2 is giving the space.
Ok yeah looks very similar then, even the fencing on outside. But yeah before Schwedenkreuz, I found the on-board for the Porsche and that's where it is.
Yeah I mean...kind of easy flat area but still for me it's 100% on the Porsche. The driver ahead doesn't signal. The car behind has to make the pass safely.
You can't assume the guy ahead of you knows you're there on a tourist day, he has to signal you. You know nothing about their experience level or what's going on in the car.
Trackday in an advanced open passing group the fault starts to shift a bit.
In hindsight I would also say, play it safe wait for an obvious signal etc. But you definitely don’t wait for everyone to signal before passing them during Touristenfahrten.
Looking at the Porsche POV over and over, I am accelerating there every time I see the M2 move right like that. Everything about that move screams I am letting you go if you know the upcoming corner and you know you just spent 8 seconds in the mirror of this M2.
I don’t subscribe to the notion it is always the passing car at fault. What am I supposed to do if I am given the space, I start the pass and then the car in front which was not on the racing line decides to cut back into the racing line when I got side by side with them. After all, it’s not forbidden to pass when the car in front isn’t signaling.
My understanding is, but I've only done one touristenfahrten so I could be misremembering, is that if you're making the "lane change" to allow passing then both drivers must signal (or at least the car being passed?), but I could be wrong. When I did it everyone I saw signaled and did so fairly promptly, for me to pass and when my rental was getting its doors blown off by GT3-RS and Ring Taxis they always signaled left (which is a really good idea because there might be even faster traffic approaching behind you that might not be expecting you to move left.)
Ironically in the US the standard at trackdays is (generally, it's not always fully correct) is for the car being passed to take the racing line and the car overtaking to move off line to pass them and to not assume you are being given the racing line unless you're given a signal on that side. IE: Don't pass at an apex without a signal.
Why are we assuming that the Porsche driver is any more experienced than the M2 driver? If the Porsche driver truly was more experienced he'd have known that the BMW was taking a good line through a section of track that he had previously been alone on. It's the responsibility of the passing car to conduct a safe pass and that means waiting for the BMW to signal and move right. Neither were done because the BMW was likely to move to signal on the straight where it was plenty safe to pass and both cars could continue to enjoy their day at the nurburgring unimpeded. let's stop conflating having the more expensive/faster car with having experience because up to this point I haven't seen anything speaking to the experience level of either driver. The Porsche driver definitely demonstrated more of a lack of experience/track knowledge. Could the BMW had done things differently sure There's multiple ways this could have been avoided but ultimately the fault lies with the Porsche.
Well here are some reasons why I think m2 is more novice:
Solid reasons:
1- Afaik, you don’t move that far off to the right in that corner(Kottenborn). You stay to the left/middle of the track. M2 driver isn’t taking the correct line.
2- Porsche spent 8 seconds behind the m2. Yet the m2 drives like they are not aware of it.
Plausible reasons:
3- UK License plate.
On other points, signaling is good etiquette but it’s not like you can’t pass if the other car is not signaling.
What you say can be true in multi class endurance racing where the lower class is entitled to the driving line, which is not the case here and m2 isn’t even on the racing line imo. Porsche waits until m2 gives space, then accelerates. Then M2 decides to not give space. It’s what I see from the perspective of the Porsche’s POV.
The unspoken rule is that you never pass on that corner/kink unless you have a massive speed delta (which wasn't present here) because there's a super long straight right after. BMW 100% shares the blame for having no awareness but the overtaker is usually responsible for safety at trackdays like this.
I don't know what you think a massive speed delta is, but the GT3 was probably carrying over 100 kph more speed into that corner before he had to slam on his brakes because the BMW was all over the road blocking his line. Even once he went for the pass he was a good 50 kph faster.
He had plenty of speed to make the pass if he didn't get driven into by a clueless moron.
It's the M2 moving too far to the right making the Porsche driver think it's giving space. If the M2 didn't move that far to the right I bet the Porsche driver would have waited.
I also think they both make that corner side by side even at those speeds if the M2 doesn't turn in that much.
I get your points, but I don't think it's unfair to assume that the BMW was never going to use his turn signal. And I don't just mean that as a meme. Even in the short clips of this incident and from the Porsche pov video, you can see the BMW driver doesn't know what they're doing. The Porsche probably shouldn't have tried to pass on that corner, but it's ultimately the BMWs fault. The Porsche just didn't do enough to avoid it, which is different than being at fault.
Why do you say the BMW driver does not know what they are doing other than that they didn't move over to let the Porsche pass? I don't see that they are doing anything wrong, other than that. At the Nurburgring, you are allowed to use the full width of the road until you indicate to a car behind that it is safe to pass. The Porsche gave them about 5 seconds before trying to go past. That's not enough to assume they would never use their turn signal.
There cannot be absolute responsibility on a car to be aware of cars behind them. Drivers on the Nurburgring are supposed to check their mirrors when safe to do so. If the BMW driver was focused on the upcoming turn and didn't check their mirror, that isn't the best etiquette, but it does not make them at fault.
The Porsche is at fault for two reasons. First is that the rules for Touristenfahrten say that there is no overtaking in curves. So the Porsche should be at fault simply for that reason. The second is that you wait for the signal from the vehicle ahead before overtaking. The Porsche didn't do that. They should have waited on the left side behind the BMW for a clear indication that passing was safe, and could have flashed their lights or honked to try to get an acknowledge from the BMW.
I would reverse what you wrote. The Porsche is the one at fault here, but the BMW could have been more aware and done more to avoid the accident.
We can go back as far as we want to and maybe hit a chicken/egg argument, but ostensibly...
Must faster Porsche happens upon BMW and must assess situation: "I'm in a GT3RS, that while 4x more capable than that M2, also costs 4x more.". One would think you then err on the side of caution. Lose the battle, win the war kind of thing. Even just self-preservation, one would think, would have caused the Porsche driver to not attempt the overtake.
If those two arguments didn't convince you not to attempt the overtake, how about the M2 driver is clearly a less experienced driver as noted by how the video just shows a poor situational awareness overall, which can fairly easily and quickly be assessed as you approach the slower vehicle. STILL, your brain is going "all seems good for an overtake here."
--but to do so, at this speed, you're going to really have to hug that outside line, and that's gonna be tough!-- says your brain
"Nah...send it."
I mean the M2 was sloppy and wrong all over the place, but a million percent the Porsche CAUSED the wreck.
Especially. Especially. Especially. Since is was not a track day. My lord.
There's a lot of bickering about this on track subs and the nurburgring sub
From what I've read, since TF follows regular German traffic regulations, according to the letter of the law, if you move left to right or right to left on track, you need to check for cars as you would on a public road changing lanes. Imagine if you were just driving a two lane twisty road (which is what TF tries to emulate with the laws, hence no recording and no lap timing). You arent just going to change lanes willy nilly and assume you have the right to the space just because you are up ahead. So based on this, the M2 is at fault for not checking
Now obviously, Porsche driver should be more defensive given the context. And if there's specific instruction on TF days to not pass on corners and wait for the driver to signal right, then yeah there is a WHOLE lot the porsche driver could have done to avoid the situation
Also looking at that footage, I wouldn't go past that BMW without a point by, since there's no confirmation visible that the BMW knows the Porsche is there.
Sure M2 is at fault here but you never overtake at that corner at the ring unless you're absolutely sure that you can overtake them with pure speed. You can't really judge and trust everyone around you in an open session like you can in a trackday.
I refuse to do open track days. I’d rather book out the place with a bunch of people I can trust to drive their cars responsibly and predictably and obey track rules.
It's the same in rallying, a car going off the road and flipping half a dozen times looks violent as hell, bits flying everywhere, but the deformation (and flipping) eats up energy, meaning the occupants have to endure less. I'd assume they were still thoroughly checked out by EMTs, but...yeah survival is possible. Also the nasty fireball was completely behind the cars.
Ironically oftentimes the worse a crash looks often the safer the outcome, all that rolling and shit flying off is taking energy away from going directly into the driver
Exactly. Going off track (in rallying) and flipping/spinning is way better than just hitting a tree with a dead stop. Race cars got a cage and you got buckets, harnesses, helmet, etc. The survival cell can take A LOT.
That's also why very very rigid cars are bad for their occupants in a traffic collision.
Seriously what the fuck one (or both) of the cars fucking exploded in a fireball. Really makes you appreciate modern safety design...and first reponders.
Just wanted to ensure that no-one assumes that it's my x account and it was, say an act of promotion or something. I was genuinely horrified by the crash and thought I'd share the same. Opened the clip up expecting the bmw and the porsche to just have a slight pop and then spinning off gently into the barrier. Definitely not what actually happened
I understand touristenfahren is different than a real track day, but I don’t understand why it should be. They don’t even allow HANS devices for some fucked up reason.
Every track day I’ve ever been to, the following is true:
1. It’s the responsibility of the passing driver to ensure a safe pass.
2. Drivers being passed should stay on the driving line when being passed. It’s the responsibility of the passing driver to go off-line to pass.
3. If the passing driver has no indication that the driver in front sees you, you are taking a mighty risk by going for a pass, especially in a corner.
The M2 definitely wasn’t paying enough attention to their rear view mirror. I think everybody agrees there. At the ring during TF, you apparently must pass on the left, no exceptions. Given that the M2 wasn’t using their indicator when they moved to the right, it’s pretty easy to assume they were just trying to keep the racing line. The M2 started turning in before the 911 even had their front bumper level with the M2’s rear bumper. It would have been so easy for the 911 to simply avoid this incident entirely. Even an idiot could see that the M2 was going to go for the apex of the corner. Going for a pass there with everything we know was super reckless, and everyone paid the price.
TLDR: M2 needed to be paying more attention, but the 911 could have easily avoided this incident altogether.
While probably not at the top of their minds right now having survived such a massive crash, I hope they both have good insurance. Normal car insurance policies often explicitly say they will not cover driving on the nurburgring
I first saw the Porsche driver’s pov and seeing the m2 move too far to the right, I also assumed the m2 was giving space to the Porsche. Porsche driver assumes the same and accelerates.
Well he probably got confused by the m2's actions. M2 did move out of the way. Still, really risky move by the Porsche anyways (and he paid for it too)
I dont understand people wanting to 'race' at TF. Its just not worth it. Let the faster car go by. You can attack that apex how you want on the next lap. You cant count on the other driver actually knowing proper race etiquette.
The Ring only has track days a few days per month, so even locals who do track days will also get in a few TF laps. Not necessarily someone being cheap. Also the case that not everyone can make their schedule work with the track days. Sometimes people who do Euro delivery of Porsches and BMW's will do a TF day before they drive home (or put their car on a boat).
They weren’t racing, BMW was simply not aware. BMW driver sitting on right side (UK car) didn’t help. Also bmw moved right more than necessary which the Porsche driver took as BMW giving space.
I'm not sure the BMW even realized there was a Porsche coming in behind him there with how he moved. Doubt he thought he was racing and was just taking the line oblivious to what was about to happen.
On a track, if the car ahead doesn't signal to let you pass, you wait. You especially don't try to pass in a corner
This isn't accurate. Track day rules vary by org, country, and run group. In the US most track days require point bys before passing, but in the fastest run groups it's often optional. Same thing with passing in corners. In advanced run groups passing in corners is allowed.
This case is different because during touristenfahrten they follow German toll road rules. Passes are only on the left, and the overtaking car is not required to wait for a signal (although it is prudent). Passing anywhere, including in corners, is allowed as long as there isn't a yellow flag or incident. The overtaking driver is supposed to take safety into account but the lead car is also supposed to be checking for faster traffic.
The Porsche driver misjudged the situation and attempted a risky pass that ended in a yardsale, but the M2 driver should've been checking their mirrors and at the very least should've had enough situational awareness to notice the RS had pulled up alongside.
They should require 50 hours of simulator time before driving on an open track. You have to know how to get out of the way, and you can't expect someone to get out of the way. Otherwise... well, that's what can happen, isn't it.
https://x.com/WorldWideCarsTM/status/1942030995026215263?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1942030995026215263%7Ctwgr%5Ea6341594e467600e01ea590a48f960cd4f7902c7%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.financialexpress.com%2Fauto%2Fcar-news%2Fbmw-sends-porsche-flying-in-nrburgring-heres-the-video%2F3905292%2F more photos and clips of the crash
that m2 man so fucking unaware. porsche is parallel to him and pushes him off course. this is what i imagine would happen if america got an autobahn. just senseless and unaware. this is why racetracks don’t let everybody on them.
He wasn't indicating when he moved to the right, which probably means he was unaware of the Porche and was simply trying to hit the apex at a better angle.
He definitely should have been more aware of his surroundings but the Porche driver should also have noticed that the M2 wasn't indicating and instead play it safe.
The Porsche enter the vortex of danger. That’s fucking dumb. This is why we can’t have nice things. Just overtake on the straights or make sure someone signals you, which m3 didn’t do. He just going for the apex.
blame the Porsche driver for being so irresponsible, taking more risks in a bloody street car during a busy TF session than I would in a racing car. He went for a gap he shouldn’t have even considered in the first place — it’s TF, after all.
Shomegrown@reddit
A lot of bickering about who is at fault, but at the end of the day it will come down to the Police officer who writes up the accident. They will consider the rules of the road, not the rules of the racetrack.
It will probably be something like 75% BMW/25% Porsche if I had to speculate, but really it's a guess. And the insurance mess will be very complicated, Misha said that UK insurance companies will likely go after the owner (BMW) for the money afterwards (will probably be well in excess of $100,000).
DrVoidberg@reddit
This could have been avoided if the Porsche driver took a more cautious and patient approach.
Godvater@reddit
This could have been avoided if the M2 driver didn’t pull to the right on a corner where you stay left/middle leading the Porsche driver think M2 is letting them pass.
This could also been avoided if the BMW driver used their mirrors.
This could ofc also been avoided if the Porsche driver drove extra safe.
I disagree about the patient part. I think the Porsche driver is definitely patient. Didn’t try anything until BMW give him space and then BMW decides to take the space back cutting into a corner you don’t even need to cut in for.
Ghost1k25@reddit
Shocking lol. He has so many near misses and generally drives extremely aggressively.
Effective-Spring3740@reddit
Thats what happens when foreigners/tourists come to a race track not knowing how to drive, the rules, how to keep to the right when they are 80kmh slower on the corner than they should be. Locals and people who know the track and how to drive it fast get angry at being impeded multiple times every lap and drive aggressively. This is the case with public karting too, if you can relate to that better. If the bimmer and people like him knew the rules (esp keep right when you are slow) fast drivers wouldn’t be taking such small gaps.
Tight_Olive_2987@reddit
It wouldn’t exist without tourist so maybe hop on down down your elitist horse
Effective-Spring3740@reddit
How about you fkin read what I said? What the fuck is it that is elitist about saying that he should keep right if he doesn’t know how to drive fast on the track? When he doesn’t, well shit I wonder what happens…? Do you even race? If not I can guess why you can’t relate to the fact that people who can drive somewhat fast get impatient with people who can’t because such people impeding you every lap every time you are on track is a fucking big annoyance. It’s not elitist to wish for slower people to not impede faster ones its fucking called being safe you dork
Organic-Quarter-6160@reddit
This could have been avoided if the BMW driver had a modicum of awareness, but BMW drivers dont know what their mirrors are for so maybe our expectations were too high.
T-Baaller@reddit
You sound like someone that's never done one of these touristfarten drives.
I did one with a company that provided prepped cars and some instruction. I remember a few specific rules they had to avoid these kinds of incidents:
You should NOT be racing or seriously timing yourself
You should NOT assume the car ahead sees you because the car ahead could have actually no previous track experience
And your should NOT be making a pass mid-turn
Porsche driver was mostly at fault for this and ruined the evening for everyone else looking to do some driving because this crash probably closed the track for the day
Effective-Spring3740@reddit
10 year nurburgring local who owns a car renting company, has his own workshop there and n24 gt4 class winner disagrees with you
https://youtu.be/jF4XrBTJJFk?feature=shared
T-Baaller@reddit
Ah yes that guy who has filmed himself driving recklessly in TFs and crashed on the ring.
I didn't respect his opinions before and this doesn't change that.
Effective-Spring3740@reddit
He drives tens of laps every week, the ring is full of crashes everyday, has multiple track closures and at least one yellow flag every session. Compared to that the guy doesn’t have many crashes at all for the whole span of time that he has been there for. He knows the place much better than you or me, he lives there lol. Why do you think your opinions is more trustworthy than an actual professional race car driver with experience totalling up to over a decade. Haha what a clown lol hilarious
Yes-Zucchini-1234@reddit
Yes. It could've. You're not wrong. But that doesn't mean that it also could've avoided if the Porsche driver took a more cautious and patient approach.
If you had the choice to crash or not, even if that meant slowing down a tiny bit, would you not take that?
By a miracle everyone survived in this situation, but the person you replied to is making a "the graveyard is filled with people who had the right of way" type of argument.
Gwolf4@reddit
Yeah, it is not own's fault to not drive carefully and blame the other one when you could have saved yourself because of combined reckless drive.
unatleticodemadrid@reddit
Is that not the M2’s fault? Should’ve kept to the right, no?
SenhorSus@reddit
Absolutely not. I'd say the Porsche is at fault.
cat_prophecy@reddit
This isn't racing though. The slower car is supposed to move over, even if it means sacrificing your beautiful apex. There is a reason why the Nurburgring explicitly bans lap timing on open days.
colonial_dan@reddit
It not being racing is exactly why the Porsche is at fault. There is no reason to make that pass there unless you have confirmation that the other car sees you.
throwthisaccawaay@reddit
His confirmation was literally when the bmw moved to the right.
If that wasn't a confirmation, why did the bmw driver move so far to the right anyway? Don't say "racing line" bc they weren't racing, so bmw driver shouldn't be so adamant about keeping his racing line. He definitely should've sewn that big porsche on the left — the Porsche had almost passed the bmw too, until he struck the Porsche's rear right.
Ghost1k25@reddit
“Racing line” has nothing to do with racing other cars lol
throwthisaccawaay@reddit
That's what I'm also implying, M2 had no basis for taking apexes the whole time if this was a public, 2 lane, unmarked road with a faster car coming in trying to overtake from the left (which usually is the norm to overtake from).
xlb250@reddit
Yes, but it’s the responsibility of the overtaking driver to make a safe pass.
tugtugtugtug4@reddit
The GT3 shouldn't have attempted it because he should have seen by the BMW being all over the road that he was an idiot. But, as far as who was in the right under the rules, that was a safe pass. BMW moved way over which is a clear indication of letting him by. If BMW just held the normal racing line, the GT3 doesn't try it.
You can't guarantee a safe pass as the overtaking car when the car being overtaken is driven by a blind moron.
Victor_at_Zama@reddit
Second time in a month that a Porsche GT3 has totalled another car at the 'Ring.
hotbuilder@reddit
Touristenfahrten is NOT a trackday. You cannot go on the website or hit the track without being reminded several times that you're supposed to drive like you're on a glorified backcountry road, not like you're doing the Nürburgring 24h.
That's why they banned timing laps, that's why they banned overtaking on the right, and that's why their rules make reference to § 3 Absatz 1 of the german traffic code several times over:
"Anyone driving a vehicle may only drive so fast that the vehicle is constantly under control. In particular, the speed must be adapted to the road, traffic, visibility and weather conditions as well as to personal abilities and the characteristics of the vehicle and load. [...]"
10000Didgeridoos@reddit
They also ban gopros and other cameras for the same reasons. They don't want clout chasers risking lives for a sick tiktok clip.
Even private track days highly encourage driving ettiquite of signaling right to move over when you're letting a trailing driver pass and not passing on insides of corners...especially not without a signal the other driver knows you're doing it and is letting you. Sometimes you have to wait for a straight to get by slower drivers. It's not a race, and is not an invitation to drive like you're playing Forza Online. People do die.
Here is the info from the track day I did with DSK. Translated, it explicity prohibits the driving behavior of the Porsche driver here.
nucleartime@reddit
Damn that sucks. If I ever did go to the Nurburgring, I'd like a video of it just for the memories.
Also how are people like Misha filming then?
Logitech4873@reddit
I just used a good dashcam.
GXNXVS@reddit
Misha has a media license
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
It's not an actual trackday to be fair - it's basically an open day where the track is treated like an open road with two virtual lanes (with the lane marker missing). Yes, the M2 was all over the place, but that car has UK plates on so the driver is presumably on the right hand side of the car.
Assuming general public road rules, it could be argued that the GT3 was way too impatient and divebombed before he knew he could clear the M2 safely. That said, the M2 driver does seem to be completely unaware of their surroundings - the 911 had its nose ahead at the point of contact (so should have been easily visible from the M2 and not in its blind spot), not to mention a 911 GT3 at full noise isn't exactly quiet.
TryharderJB@reddit
Just like in snowboarding and skiing, the responsibility falls onto the person who is uphill. In this case, the Porsche driver.
HvalaBudala@reddit
No, it works the opposite here. Regular driving rules apply.
It's on the car changing lanes. Left is the passing lane and right is normal. The Porshe was passing in the correct lane, and the M2 encroached in his lane when he wasn't even passing.
Ghost1k25@reddit
That’s not at all how that works.
tugtugtugtug4@reddit
Except no, not at all like that. Snowboarding/Skiing is a largely gravity driven sport. You have limited ability to stop or start quickly and people obviously don't have rear view mirrors built into their heads, unlike cars.
On a race track, especially at the ring, drivers are required to look behind them for traffic and yield to the right when safe to do so. BMW appeared to have yielded and then cut back across. Either he didn't see the 911 (BMW's fault), or he deliberately baited him to pass and then closed the door.
BMW driver should get a lifetime ban from the ring.
10000Didgeridoos@reddit
No. I've driven the ring for two days in a private track day event (I just paid to join in with a driving club's track days) and trust me it is made abundantly clear there that you do not pass without the leading driver using the right turn signal and moving over letting you know they see you and will let you pass. This was hammered home by the driving instructor I paid to have with me the first 4 laps.
Tourist days, track days...it doesn't matter dude. It's still not a race. You're an amateur driving with other amateurs of various skill levels, not driving in Formula 1. The main objective is to have fun and not get hurt, not hurt anyone else, and not lose your car.
Porsche driver attempts to make a pass on the inside of a corner with no room to do it, at 180 km/hr, with no indication the BMW driver even knows he's there.
Trust me on this - it's very hard to drive on a track that hilly, that windy, that narrow at track speeds while also keeping perfect tabs on the vehicles behind you. Sometimes all the sudden a $300k supercar materializes out of nowhere and blows by you like you're standing still. It's not as simple to do with little experience as you want it to be. No driving sim of the ring does the g forces and large elevation changes justice. It's like driving a roller coaster.
Warm_Regard@reddit
I don't see the BMW yielding at all. The car was all over the track the whole video. Don't people usually use their right signal to indicate yielding at the Ring? (Insert BMW driver joke here). I think the BMW driver was not paying attention to their mirrors and the Porsche definitely should not have made the pass
10000Didgeridoos@reddit
Even if it is a track day, you're not supposed to risk this. This is the info attached to signing up for the track day I did the other year, google translated to English.
Trackdays are just essentially private touristenfahrten. You still are explicity not supposed to take risks, try to race, try to hit top speeds possible, and try to set lap times. Gopros are banned and lap timing is banned for this reason.
In two days at the ring, I didn't see a single person attempt a pass like this. It's just idiotic. Could have or should have doesn't matter when there is no room for error and the consequences are likely severe injury or death of one or both participants. You're not racing. Period. Pass on a straight or when given the turn signal indication that you are being allowed to do so. Especially at 180 fucking kmhr.
Prestigious-Mess5485@reddit
I have nothing to add other than touristenfahrten is a great fucking word lol
thetimechaser@reddit
It's Touristenfahrten. BMW definitely at fault in my eyes. On these days you ONLY pass on the left and keep right unless actively passing.
Being charitable to the BMW driver he did not catch the Porsche coming up in the rearview and went to cut a line, but still that's the BMWs error for not spotting the faster car.
Emotional-Map-372@reddit (OP)
Exactly, it's not easy to blame either party right away. The porsche driver attacked really aggressively for tourist rounds.. but like the initial comment of yours, the m2 should've stayed to the right. Perhaps he just assumed that the gt3 would slow down and stick behind him till the end of the corner? Nonetheless, it's done now.. the only thing that matters is that everyone's safe
jrileyy229@reddit
Well there is a reason virtually all track days in the US use point by passing only. Then there's never a question of who did or didn't see who.
tugtugtugtug4@reddit
Yes, but those tracks also have marshals who will black flag cars like the BMW that drive erratically and ignore their mirrors. Point by passing still requires drivers to pay attention to their surroundings, otherwise you just can't ever pass.
jrileyy229@reddit
Sure, but also this doesn't happen. I was just replying to the notion of "I only do private rentals and not track days because of this stuff" Well this stuff doesn't really happen.
Once you get out of novice group, the expectation is that to you know your car and the track and you should understand where faster cars are you going to be planning to pass
Organic-Quarter-6160@reddit
It is 100% the BMW driver's fault. What's particularly disgusting is all the commenters in the BMW sub that are gaslighting and blaming the Porsche for this LOL. What a bunch of clowns. I feel like the stereotype of BMW drivers being assholes that don't know how to drive is the most accurate of all car/driver stereotypes.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
The reason people are saying this is because this happened during a tourist open day, not a track day.
Watch the footage again and instead of looking at it like it's an onboard camera of a race car, consider it as an open public road with no speed limit.
It starts looking like the BMW driver's incompetence meeting the Porsche driver's impatience.
Sunfuels@reddit
It's the Porsches fault. Passing in corners is banned. AND passing cars are responsible for ensuring that any overtakes are done safely, which is generally done by waiting for slower cars to move to the right and put on their right turn signal. The Porsche tried to pass without that acknowledgement and in a corner. I have little idea how people are justifying this being the BMW drivers fault.
Godvater@reddit
Who says passing in corners is banned? That is simply not true.
Sunfuels@reddit
They regulations refer several times to German Driving law indicating that it is the responsibility of each driver to ensure they are not driving too fast to safely avoid hazards or weather and that they have a responsibility to ensure overtakes can be done safely before doing so. In their instructional videos they also say do not pass in corners.
avboden@reddit
The BMW was clearly inexperienced and still tried to hit the apex without seeing the Porsche. The porsche got impatient and passed even though the BMW didn’t signal to the right that he was letting him by. Nurburgring has some weird rules on these public days but personally I put them both at fault. Both could have easily prevented this and the experienced Porsche driver should have known better
OldSchoolSpyMain@reddit
I blame the Porsche driver.
tugtugtugtug4@reddit
I don't understand why people excuse the BMW because it was a "fun" day and not an organized race event. The rules are the rules and the BMW was obligated to yield there and he actually appeared to be doing so because his line was so erratic, which baited the pass in the first place.
The BMW driver has no business being on the ring or any other race track. Zero situational awareness and zero knowledge of how to act on a race track.
Porsche driver shouldn't have tried to pass there because it was clear the BMW driver was either malicious or incompetent and its better not to risk you quarter million dollar sports car on someone else's malice or incompetence, but as far as "legal" blame goes it was 100% on the BMW.
OldSchoolSpyMain@reddit
The Porsche guy fucked up. Period.
He was pushing hard and thought he could squeeze through even though he wasn't acknowledged and cleared to do so. Period.
tadfisher@reddit
Yes, slower vehicles are obligated to yield, but only when safe to do so. The apex of a corner is not a safe place to yield or overtake in any sense of the imagination, unless your last name is Verstappen and you're racing at Spa. The yield must also be communicated with a signal.
davewritescode@reddit
Nobody is excusing the BMW but the whole point acknowledging the pass attempt with a signal is to avoid this type of issue.
The GT3 RS is the problem here, when you’re on a track you can’t assume the driver ahead of you has perfect situational awareness.
dagelijksestijl@reddit
The reality is that for every tourist there's a bunch of maniacs who have decided that all other people on the Ring are annoying obstacles.
woodsides@reddit
Sure M2 is at fault here but you never overtake at that corner at the ring unless you're absolutely sure that you can overtake them with pure speed. You can't really judge and trust everyone around you in an open session like you can in a trackday. Yes the M2 had 0 situational awareness but the 3RS also had terrible judgement to pass at that particular corner. Just wait and pass on the long straight after goddamnit. Why risk it through such a narrow kink even when you were already going off track? I wouldn't push there if I was in the 3RS.
Preach.
Droopy1592@reddit
The best take here
Sunfuels@reddit
The most important thing is that everyone is ok, regardless of who was at fault. That said, Porsche is pretty clearly at fault here.
I have only done a few laps on the Nurburgring, but the rules about overtaking were pretty clear. If you come upon slower traffic, you are supposed to wait for the slower cars to move to the right AND signal to the right, indicating they will stay right for you to pass on the left.
The BMW moved to the right, which looked like giving space for the Porsche to pass, but they did not signal. It is possible the BMW did not see the Porsche come up on them and was just moving right to get wide before the next turn. Or, they saw the Porsche but didn't think it would come up on them before the next turn, so they planned to apex the next turn then move over for it. Because there was no signal from the BMW, the Porsche was not cleared to pass at that point and is at fault for the crash.
All cars are supposed to keep an eye on their mirrors and move right when faster cars approach from behind. The BMW should have been more aware and allowed the Porsche to pass before the curve. But the BMW not noticing the faster vehicle from behind does not make the crash their fault if they did not signal that they were allowing a safe pass.
Godvater@reddit
If you wait for everyone in front to signal to the right to pass them on the Nurburgring you can not pass half the people and you will create a loong line behind you. Some simply drive on the right and/or give you enough space one way or another.
The BMW driver was simply unaware, he moved too far to the right which the GT3 driver assumed it was the BMW giving space. Watching the clip I assumed the same. Wrong assumption for sure but with the amount of time the gt3 rs spent behind the m2 and m2 moving too far to the right; it is pretty astonishing that the m2 driver hasnt seen the Porsche at all.
TheCrudMan@reddit
So instead you try to steal an apex in the most dangerous corner on the track?
Godvater@reddit
It's the Nordschleife and it's Touristenfahrten, you have to keep checking your mirrors, every corner is dangerous. Whatever you drive, there is someone much faster than you coming from behind. M2 moved to the right after 6+ seconds of having Porsche in its vision(mirrors) and Porsche spent 8+ seconds in total in the vision of the driver before driving into the blind spot.
I am sure if the M2 didn't move too far to the right Porsche driver would have waited. I think Porsche driver with his experience sees the M2 driver moving too far to the right and assumes this is the M2 giving space. What probably happened however is M2 driver moved too far to the right thinking that is the driving line not seeing the Porsche.
TheCrudMan@reddit
It's the responsibility of the passing driver to make the pass safely.
I believe this is Schwedenkreuz where I would avoid going two wide even in a race.
The racing line takes the BMW to the right.
On touistenfahrten overtaking is controlled by turn signals which were not given.
There's no reason to make assumptions or to be impatient. There is nothing to win, the times don't matter, and the driving enjoyment is not compromised being held up for a couple more seconds into a hairpin.
tugtugtugtug4@reddit
The passing driver has to make a safe pass. But the passing driver can't control the car being overtaken. Here, the BMW moved way off line to the right, which was most drivers would have taken as an invitation to pass, then once the GT3 was making the pass he chopped back across, again not on the proper line.
If you require that drivers only pass when they can guarantee some moron won't completely abandon the racing line and chop across the track without checking their mirrors, you will end up with a parade of cars with zero over takes.
Godvater@reddit
This is not Schwedenkreuz.
TheCrudMan@reddit
Yeah hard to tell from the angles for me. Is this the back straight up the hill?
Godvater@reddit
It’s called Kottenborn, the corner before Schwedenkreuz where you stay to the left/middle. That is why M2 moving right is odd and Porsche driver thinks the M2 is giving the space.
TheCrudMan@reddit
Ok yeah looks very similar then, even the fencing on outside. But yeah before Schwedenkreuz, I found the on-board for the Porsche and that's where it is.
Yeah I mean...kind of easy flat area but still for me it's 100% on the Porsche. The driver ahead doesn't signal. The car behind has to make the pass safely.
You can't assume the guy ahead of you knows you're there on a tourist day, he has to signal you. You know nothing about their experience level or what's going on in the car.
Trackday in an advanced open passing group the fault starts to shift a bit.
Godvater@reddit
In hindsight I would also say, play it safe wait for an obvious signal etc. But you definitely don’t wait for everyone to signal before passing them during Touristenfahrten.
Looking at the Porsche POV over and over, I am accelerating there every time I see the M2 move right like that. Everything about that move screams I am letting you go if you know the upcoming corner and you know you just spent 8 seconds in the mirror of this M2.
I don’t subscribe to the notion it is always the passing car at fault. What am I supposed to do if I am given the space, I start the pass and then the car in front which was not on the racing line decides to cut back into the racing line when I got side by side with them. After all, it’s not forbidden to pass when the car in front isn’t signaling.
TheCrudMan@reddit
My understanding is, but I've only done one touristenfahrten so I could be misremembering, is that if you're making the "lane change" to allow passing then both drivers must signal (or at least the car being passed?), but I could be wrong. When I did it everyone I saw signaled and did so fairly promptly, for me to pass and when my rental was getting its doors blown off by GT3-RS and Ring Taxis they always signaled left (which is a really good idea because there might be even faster traffic approaching behind you that might not be expecting you to move left.)
Ironically in the US the standard at trackdays is (generally, it's not always fully correct) is for the car being passed to take the racing line and the car overtaking to move off line to pass them and to not assume you are being given the racing line unless you're given a signal on that side. IE: Don't pass at an apex without a signal.
ItsNotanM3@reddit
Why are we assuming that the Porsche driver is any more experienced than the M2 driver? If the Porsche driver truly was more experienced he'd have known that the BMW was taking a good line through a section of track that he had previously been alone on. It's the responsibility of the passing car to conduct a safe pass and that means waiting for the BMW to signal and move right. Neither were done because the BMW was likely to move to signal on the straight where it was plenty safe to pass and both cars could continue to enjoy their day at the nurburgring unimpeded. let's stop conflating having the more expensive/faster car with having experience because up to this point I haven't seen anything speaking to the experience level of either driver. The Porsche driver definitely demonstrated more of a lack of experience/track knowledge. Could the BMW had done things differently sure There's multiple ways this could have been avoided but ultimately the fault lies with the Porsche.
Godvater@reddit
Well here are some reasons why I think m2 is more novice:
Solid reasons:
1- Afaik, you don’t move that far off to the right in that corner(Kottenborn). You stay to the left/middle of the track. M2 driver isn’t taking the correct line.
2- Porsche spent 8 seconds behind the m2. Yet the m2 drives like they are not aware of it.
Plausible reasons:
3- UK License plate.
On other points, signaling is good etiquette but it’s not like you can’t pass if the other car is not signaling.
What you say can be true in multi class endurance racing where the lower class is entitled to the driving line, which is not the case here and m2 isn’t even on the racing line imo. Porsche waits until m2 gives space, then accelerates. Then M2 decides to not give space. It’s what I see from the perspective of the Porsche’s POV.
woodsides@reddit
The unspoken rule is that you never pass on that corner/kink unless you have a massive speed delta (which wasn't present here) because there's a super long straight right after. BMW 100% shares the blame for having no awareness but the overtaker is usually responsible for safety at trackdays like this.
tugtugtugtug4@reddit
I don't know what you think a massive speed delta is, but the GT3 was probably carrying over 100 kph more speed into that corner before he had to slam on his brakes because the BMW was all over the road blocking his line. Even once he went for the pass he was a good 50 kph faster.
He had plenty of speed to make the pass if he didn't get driven into by a clueless moron.
Godvater@reddit
It's the M2 moving too far to the right making the Porsche driver think it's giving space. If the M2 didn't move that far to the right I bet the Porsche driver would have waited.
I also think they both make that corner side by side even at those speeds if the M2 doesn't turn in that much.
Du_Kich_Long_Trang@reddit
I get your points, but I don't think it's unfair to assume that the BMW was never going to use his turn signal. And I don't just mean that as a meme. Even in the short clips of this incident and from the Porsche pov video, you can see the BMW driver doesn't know what they're doing. The Porsche probably shouldn't have tried to pass on that corner, but it's ultimately the BMWs fault. The Porsche just didn't do enough to avoid it, which is different than being at fault.
Sunfuels@reddit
Why do you say the BMW driver does not know what they are doing other than that they didn't move over to let the Porsche pass? I don't see that they are doing anything wrong, other than that. At the Nurburgring, you are allowed to use the full width of the road until you indicate to a car behind that it is safe to pass. The Porsche gave them about 5 seconds before trying to go past. That's not enough to assume they would never use their turn signal.
There cannot be absolute responsibility on a car to be aware of cars behind them. Drivers on the Nurburgring are supposed to check their mirrors when safe to do so. If the BMW driver was focused on the upcoming turn and didn't check their mirror, that isn't the best etiquette, but it does not make them at fault.
The Porsche is at fault for two reasons. First is that the rules for Touristenfahrten say that there is no overtaking in curves. So the Porsche should be at fault simply for that reason. The second is that you wait for the signal from the vehicle ahead before overtaking. The Porsche didn't do that. They should have waited on the left side behind the BMW for a clear indication that passing was safe, and could have flashed their lights or honked to try to get an acknowledge from the BMW.
I would reverse what you wrote. The Porsche is the one at fault here, but the BMW could have been more aware and done more to avoid the accident.
4r4r4real@reddit
Probably the part where they actively turn into a passing car causing a catastrophic collision.
TheDrWormPhD@reddit
We can go back as far as we want to and maybe hit a chicken/egg argument, but ostensibly...
Must faster Porsche happens upon BMW and must assess situation: "I'm in a GT3RS, that while 4x more capable than that M2, also costs 4x more.". One would think you then err on the side of caution. Lose the battle, win the war kind of thing. Even just self-preservation, one would think, would have caused the Porsche driver to not attempt the overtake.
If those two arguments didn't convince you not to attempt the overtake, how about the M2 driver is clearly a less experienced driver as noted by how the video just shows a poor situational awareness overall, which can fairly easily and quickly be assessed as you approach the slower vehicle. STILL, your brain is going "all seems good for an overtake here."
--but to do so, at this speed, you're going to really have to hug that outside line, and that's gonna be tough!-- says your brain
"Nah...send it."
I mean the M2 was sloppy and wrong all over the place, but a million percent the Porsche CAUSED the wreck.
Especially. Especially. Especially. Since is was not a track day. My lord.
gothicserp3nt@reddit
There's a lot of bickering about this on track subs and the nurburgring sub
From what I've read, since TF follows regular German traffic regulations, according to the letter of the law, if you move left to right or right to left on track, you need to check for cars as you would on a public road changing lanes. Imagine if you were just driving a two lane twisty road (which is what TF tries to emulate with the laws, hence no recording and no lap timing). You arent just going to change lanes willy nilly and assume you have the right to the space just because you are up ahead. So based on this, the M2 is at fault for not checking
Now obviously, Porsche driver should be more defensive given the context. And if there's specific instruction on TF days to not pass on corners and wait for the driver to signal right, then yeah there is a WHOLE lot the porsche driver could have done to avoid the situation
zhiryst@reddit
Also looking at that footage, I wouldn't go past that BMW without a point by, since there's no confirmation visible that the BMW knows the Porsche is there.
Big_Flan_4492@reddit
Pretty crazy the Nurburing does open track days 💀
Raving_107@reddit
ETA?
stakoverflo@reddit
"Edit to Add" I think. I don't know why people don't just say "Edit", or even just "e" for short.
Why use another established acronym lol
woodsides@reddit
Sure M2 is at fault here but you never overtake at that corner at the ring unless you're absolutely sure that you can overtake them with pure speed. You can't really judge and trust everyone around you in an open session like you can in a trackday.
Preach.
Random_Introvert_42@reddit
Prime example of crumble zone vs survival cell.
shoveazy@reddit
I cannot believe there were no reported serious injuries. Insane for the amount of carnage shown in the video.
Random_Introvert_42@reddit
It's the same in rallying, a car going off the road and flipping half a dozen times looks violent as hell, bits flying everywhere, but the deformation (and flipping) eats up energy, meaning the occupants have to endure less. I'd assume they were still thoroughly checked out by EMTs, but...yeah survival is possible. Also the nasty fireball was completely behind the cars.
rekmaster69@reddit
medical helicopter picked them both up just to be sure
OkWheel4741@reddit
Ironically oftentimes the worse a crash looks often the safer the outcome, all that rolling and shit flying off is taking energy away from going directly into the driver
Random_Introvert_42@reddit
Exactly. Going off track (in rallying) and flipping/spinning is way better than just hitting a tree with a dead stop. Race cars got a cage and you got buckets, harnesses, helmet, etc. The survival cell can take A LOT.
That's also why very very rigid cars are bad for their occupants in a traffic collision.
19Black@reddit
Yea, my immediate reaction to watching the video was “holy fuck, I’ve just watched two people die”
hermitcraftfan135@reddit
It’s seriously amazing how safe modern cars really can be. Super impressive
MumpsyDaisy@reddit
Seriously what the fuck one (or both) of the cars fucking exploded in a fireball. Really makes you appreciate modern safety design...and first reponders.
pdp10@reddit
When we first started seeing people walk away from these style of crashes on the 'Ring, I was astounded. Now it's routine.
Big_Flan_4492@reddit
Survival cell indeed. Bro got airborne and still survived 😂
HugePair@reddit
That’s a crazy crash.
PiggypPiggyyYaya@reddit
Yep BMW is at fault, but Porsche also made a poor passing decision.
Truck_Dog_SmokedMeat@reddit
BMW at fault
bwoah_gimmethedrink@reddit
why is there a ref on the x link?
Emotional-Map-372@reddit (OP)
Just wanted to ensure that no-one assumes that it's my x account and it was, say an act of promotion or something. I was genuinely horrified by the crash and thought I'd share the same. Opened the clip up expecting the bmw and the porsche to just have a slight pop and then spinning off gently into the barrier. Definitely not what actually happened
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
I understand touristenfahren is different than a real track day, but I don’t understand why it should be. They don’t even allow HANS devices for some fucked up reason.
Every track day I’ve ever been to, the following is true:
1. It’s the responsibility of the passing driver to ensure a safe pass.
2. Drivers being passed should stay on the driving line when being passed. It’s the responsibility of the passing driver to go off-line to pass.
3. If the passing driver has no indication that the driver in front sees you, you are taking a mighty risk by going for a pass, especially in a corner.
The M2 definitely wasn’t paying enough attention to their rear view mirror. I think everybody agrees there. At the ring during TF, you apparently must pass on the left, no exceptions. Given that the M2 wasn’t using their indicator when they moved to the right, it’s pretty easy to assume they were just trying to keep the racing line. The M2 started turning in before the 911 even had their front bumper level with the M2’s rear bumper. It would have been so easy for the 911 to simply avoid this incident entirely. Even an idiot could see that the M2 was going to go for the apex of the corner. Going for a pass there with everything we know was super reckless, and everyone paid the price.
TLDR: M2 needed to be paying more attention, but the 911 could have easily avoided this incident altogether.
plant_king@reddit
While probably not at the top of their minds right now having survived such a massive crash, I hope they both have good insurance. Normal car insurance policies often explicitly say they will not cover driving on the nurburgring
Godvater@reddit
I first saw the Porsche driver’s pov and seeing the m2 move too far to the right, I also assumed the m2 was giving space to the Porsche. Porsche driver assumes the same and accelerates.
Aggressive? Yes but not completely at fault imo.
Wirenfeldt@reddit
He made an assumption that resulted in a fireball though..
throwthisaccawaay@reddit
Well he probably got confused by the m2's actions. M2 did move out of the way. Still, really risky move by the Porsche anyways (and he paid for it too)
Godvater@reddit
You know what they say in F1, we judge the incident not the outcome .s
humdizzle@reddit
I dont understand people wanting to 'race' at TF. Its just not worth it. Let the faster car go by. You can attack that apex how you want on the next lap. You cant count on the other driver actually knowing proper race etiquette.
T-Baaller@reddit
Porsche guy was too cheap to do a real track day with people driving properly.
Whether that's ironic I leave to the reader.
GVIrish@reddit
The Ring only has track days a few days per month, so even locals who do track days will also get in a few TF laps. Not necessarily someone being cheap. Also the case that not everyone can make their schedule work with the track days. Sometimes people who do Euro delivery of Porsches and BMW's will do a TF day before they drive home (or put their car on a boat).
T-Baaller@reddit
Whether they did not want to pay the price in euros or in time for a track day, choosing to treat the TF like a one is not right.
Godvater@reddit
They weren’t racing, BMW was simply not aware. BMW driver sitting on right side (UK car) didn’t help. Also bmw moved right more than necessary which the Porsche driver took as BMW giving space.
AcMav@reddit
I'm not sure the BMW even realized there was a Porsche coming in behind him there with how he moved. Doubt he thought he was racing and was just taking the line oblivious to what was about to happen.
fuck_the_mods@reddit
On a track, if the car ahead doesn't signal to let you pass, you wait. You especially don't try to pass in a corner.
The porsche is 100% at fault.
Yes, the BMW should have been more aware, but they didn't do anything wrong.
GVIrish@reddit
This isn't accurate. Track day rules vary by org, country, and run group. In the US most track days require point bys before passing, but in the fastest run groups it's often optional. Same thing with passing in corners. In advanced run groups passing in corners is allowed.
This case is different because during touristenfahrten they follow German toll road rules. Passes are only on the left, and the overtaking car is not required to wait for a signal (although it is prudent). Passing anywhere, including in corners, is allowed as long as there isn't a yellow flag or incident. The overtaking driver is supposed to take safety into account but the lead car is also supposed to be checking for faster traffic.
The Porsche driver misjudged the situation and attempted a risky pass that ended in a yardsale, but the M2 driver should've been checking their mirrors and at the very least should've had enough situational awareness to notice the RS had pulled up alongside.
Electronic_Algae5426@reddit
Glad to see everyone lived. Nasty wreck
OldSchoolSpyMain@reddit
Any non X links? I'm not supporting a Nazy just to see this.
(FYI: Just viewing links on X supports X. You don't have to be logged in.)
MarcusSurealius@reddit
They should require 50 hours of simulator time before driving on an open track. You have to know how to get out of the way, and you can't expect someone to get out of the way. Otherwise... well, that's what can happen, isn't it.
ALaLaLa98@reddit
<3 <3 <3
Victor_at_Zama@reddit
We sure Kevin Estre wasn't driving the Porsche?
Emotional-Map-372@reddit (OP)
https://x.com/WorldWideCarsTM/status/1942030995026215263?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1942030995026215263%7Ctwgr%5Ea6341594e467600e01ea590a48f960cd4f7902c7%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.financialexpress.com%2Fauto%2Fcar-news%2Fbmw-sends-porsche-flying-in-nrburgring-heres-the-video%2F3905292%2F more photos and clips of the crash
xt1nct@reddit
Dead now.
Intro24@reddit
Not for me. Still works fine
79QUATTRO@reddit
that m2 man so fucking unaware. porsche is parallel to him and pushes him off course. this is what i imagine would happen if america got an autobahn. just senseless and unaware. this is why racetracks don’t let everybody on them.
Ram0ne@reddit
He wasn't indicating when he moved to the right, which probably means he was unaware of the Porche and was simply trying to hit the apex at a better angle.
He definitely should have been more aware of his surroundings but the Porche driver should also have noticed that the M2 wasn't indicating and instead play it safe.
R_V_Z@reddit
Well yeah. It's a BMW.
woodsides@reddit
And also that there is a long ass straight right after that corner and that there was no need to overtake in that tiny apex kink.
xt1nct@reddit
The Porsche enter the vortex of danger. That’s fucking dumb. This is why we can’t have nice things. Just overtake on the straights or make sure someone signals you, which m3 didn’t do. He just going for the apex.
FuchsNMinilites_@reddit
blame the Porsche driver for being so irresponsible, taking more risks in a bloody street car during a busy TF session than I would in a racing car. He went for a gap he shouldn’t have even considered in the first place — it’s TF, after all.