Failed my commercial checkride
Posted by fgflyer@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 62 comments
Well, now I can officially say I am in the “did every single thing to ACS standards except for the power-off 180” club.
Took my Commercial SEL checkride today with Mo Mayo out of KTIW. She is very fair and a nice woman, but she follows the ACS exactly to the letter and is very firm and holds you to a very high standard. The oral only took an hour and a half and went relatively smoothly, except for me not making the best decision with my planned altitude for the cross country flight planning. That right there almost resulted in an unsat, but I demonstrated that I learned from it and so she elected to continue. The rest of the oral went fine and we moved on to the flight.
We did a soft field takeoff, did the first few legs of the XC, then broke off to set up for steep turns followed by slow flight, both of which I did just fine. Then she had me recover from slow flight into cruise configuration, and then set up for a power off stall. I asked her “would you like me to take it to full break, or first indication?” to which she responded “I want you to do it to standards. What does the ACS say?” And in that moment, I completely blanked; my CFI and I had emphasized taking it to full break, and so I did. I did the same thing for the power-on stall.
We then did the emergency descent immediately followed by an impromptu, steep spiral, where she actually took control of the throttle and just had me do the spiral. We then went into eights on pylons, which took me a while to set up for with the right winds, but I found some and did them well. Then we did chandelles and lazy eights, both of which were well within standards but she noted that I was looking at the instruments too much. After that, we did unusual attitudes, and she had me close my eyes and try to hold straight and level, then enter into a steep turn, open my eyes, and recover.
Then we headed back to Tacoma, where she had me perform a short field landing first. I came in a little low and dragged my approach a little bit, but I hit my touchdown point within standards. Then we set up for the power off 180. And that’s where I messed up… I ended up turning too soon, and I ended up being too high. So, I ended up putting the 182 into a fairly aggressive forward slip to get down, but it wasn’t enough. I elected to go around which she commended me for.
After that, we did the soft field landing, which was great. We taxied back in and said that I did well overall, but I did unsat the power off 180. We went back into the FBO with my CFI to debrief, and she basically emphasized to me that a commercial pilot needs to think outside of the box when it comes to safety at every single aspect of the flight. She noted that I have a tendency to get task saturated, and I also have very bad testing anxiety. She commended me on how well I flew all of my maneuvers, but she said that I really need to look outside a lot more.
She gave me my disapproval letter and I’m going back up with my CFI tomorrow to practice PO180s, and then take my (hopefully brief!) retest on Tuesday afternoon.
This is my first checkride failure, so obviously I’m pretty bummed out about it. But overall, I think that I got a fair checkride, and valid criticisms. The only thing both me and my CFI are a little put off about is that when it comes to stalls, the ACS does say that they should be taken to first indication ORas specified by the evaluator, so that caused me confusion when I asked her if she wanted me to do first indication or full break.
Dangerous_News_2704@reddit
For an industry with such strict and specific standards, kind of comical how subjective it all becomes. Having an examiner or instructor respond with such a corny statement like, “well what does the ACS specify?” when asked if they want the stall to be full break or not is pathetic. Clarify what you’re looking for and test the pilot on the maneuver, done. These mind games are obnoxious and reminds me of a bullied child becoming an officer that can’t handle having power or authority. It’s clear when a student doesn’t know or can’t perform but to be unnecessarily difficult is just childish.
nihilist_neli@reddit
Aviation is chalked full of egotistical chest beaters who have so much confidence they don't even realize they don't know what they're doing. I love flying, but I don't enjoy the company of very many pilots.
PhillyPilot@reddit
So… she doesn’t follow the ACS. Also, if you’re high in a 182, just drop flaps and slow it down to 60kts. It’ll drop like a brick
nihilist_neli@reddit
I've been practicing PO 180's in my 182 and the conclusion I've come to is you leave the flaps out until pretty much over the numbers, otherwise you're coming up short, or down hard, or likely both!
PilotC150@reddit
Sounds like this DPE isn’t as “follow the ACS exactly to the letter” as you think.
As already mentioned, stalls are either to the first indication or full break, as specified by the examiner.
But also, in Appendix 3, it says you only should do steep turns OR steep spiral. Not both. And chandelles OR lazy eights. Not both.
She really made you do a lot more than she was supposed to.
TomToddlesworth@reddit
It's within the examiner's discretion to have you perform extra ACS maneuvers, especially in the context of an applicant staring at their instruments when they should be using visual references
nihilist_neli@reddit
In Appendix 3, concerning Area of Operation V, the document states:
"For initial comercial applicants seeking an ASEL or ASES rating, the evaluator MUST SELECT: Task A, Steep Turns, OR Task B, Steep Spiral; Task C, Chandelles, OR Task D, Lazy Eights"
There's nothing ambiguous about that at all, ZERO mention of the examiners "right" to make the applicant perform ALL of them. It specifically says the examiner MUST SELECT one OR the other....
It's written a LOT more straight forward than the convoluted hour/experience requirements of 61.129 that the applicants and DPE's are left to decipher and make determinations on, such as the 10 hours of instrument, what has to be logged for ground training, and if the long solo cross country can be broken up over several days or not.
The DPE is also supposed to specify to what extent they expect the stall to be performed, not cop-out with a "what does the ACS say?"
This DPE sounds inexperienced, nervous, and like they are doing their best to do what they feel covers their a** in case the FAA comes asking questions. Hopefully they get better at their job.
Inside-Jackfruit8647@reddit
Actually. She has the right TEST ALL THE TASKS.
PilotC150@reddit
I’m sure you’re correct
Can you point me to where in the FARs or ACS it says that?
Inside-Jackfruit8647@reddit
In the appendix page A-9 top under the note. In commercial ACS. It’s the same in every ACS
Hamsalad1701@reddit
Why did she have you do both chandelles and lazy eights? It’s usually one or the other, not both.
nihilist_neli@reddit
Same with steep turns AND steep spiral??? The ACS specifically states the evaluator is to choose one or the other?
jocww@reddit
Doesn’t she have to tell you that you failed the maneuver before you continued?
ReadyplayerParzival1@reddit
Shit happens. It’s the power off 180, it’s a stupid maneuver in my opinion. If I have an actual engine failure I don’t care about landing on a certain point, I just want to put the plane down on a runway or somewhere else that will keep my passengers and myself safe. Luckily for you in airline interviews it’s fairly easy to explain away if it’s your first or second failure.
Inside-Jackfruit8647@reddit
This manuv is designed to show you are the master of the aircraft. The point touchdown is extremely important
LegalRecord3431@reddit
It drives me absolutely insane that people think the PO180 is an emergency maneuver
makgross@reddit
That’s because the PO180 isn’t a simulated engine failure.
Like all commercial maneuvers, the point is to test mastery of the aircraft.
If you want to claim otherwise, you get to explain why it’s in sec IV (takeoffs, landings, and go-arounds) instead of IX (emergency operations). Same deal with steep spirals. They are ground reference maneuvers.
There IS an item for “emergency approach and landing” in Task IX. It has no landing specs.
Bunslow@reddit
I'd say that the PO180 is dual purpose. It is both for general mastery and for simulating a deadstick landing.
It helps train energy awareness and management, but by only doing so from one particular vantage point -- pattern altitude, downwind abeam the landing target -- it thus means we'll get the best results "in real life" (so to speak) if we imitate that practice as closely as possible.
So in a real deadstick landing, you should prefer to set yourself up for a PO180 as you've practiced, rather than trying to fly a long straight in final or a long base or some other strange thing. Then, once you've setup the as-practiced PO180, your real-deadstick landing just became muscle memory, which greatly improves the odds
OnToNextStage@reddit
Then why not allow go arounds if it’s not an emergency?
It it’s an emergency, fair enough no go around but no specific point either
If it’s not an emergency make the point but allow go arounds
LegitRefrigerator@reddit
I was asked about this on my check ride and the DPE made me read appendix 3 on PO180s. Made a point to say if there was something out of my control that a go around was perfectly fine but if I was messing up the maneuver and tried to go around that he would fail me. I think if you read the ACS info on PO180s it’s actually pretty fair to say it’s not an emergency and more of mastery of hitting a point. Probably an unpopular opinion but it’s a good thing to test even though it’s hard. The issue is DPEs that wouldn’t allow a go around for any reason at all. However OP sounds like he just goofed on the part a lot of people goof on.
Oxygen_Converter@reddit
ULPT: Visit tower a day prior with pizza. Hey dudes, if I'm landing anywhere outside of here or here tomorrow cx landing clearance/direct a go around from tower. K thanks bye.
jet-setting@reddit
You can go around, but it will fail the maneuver.
You don’t get do-overs for any of the other maneuvers either. This really is no different in that way.
It’s an energy management maneuver with power idle. The lazy 8 is energy management with constant power, and the chandelle is energy management with full power.
PoemCritical@reddit
Correct, the PO180 is about energy management. CFI's who teach it as an "emergency" are doing a disservice to their students.
ReadyplayerParzival1@reddit
That’s interesting. This is how I was taught. This is also the official position of riddle flight instructors. It was the only time we could slip to land funnily enough due to it being an “emergency” maneuver sigh.
PoemCritical@reddit
The Airplane Flying Handbook is a great reference for almost everything!
”Poweroff accuracy approaches and landings involve gliding to a touchdown at a given point (or within a specified distance beyond that point), while using a specific pattern and with the engine idling. The objective is to instill in the pilot the judgment and procedures necessary for accurately flying the airplane, without power, to a safe landing.“
For the other landings, I’ve got no issues if an applicant does a slip 🤷♂️
Bill92677@reddit
" If I have an actual engine failure I don’t care about landing on a certain point, I just want to put the plane down on a runway or somewhere else that will keep my passengers and myself safe"
While I agree with the others that the PO180 is about energy management, I also see its applicability to an engine failure landing. And in urban areas, being able to hit the small field or golf course on point is essential to a successful outcome.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
It’s not a stupid maneuver. It’s to test your energy management
If anything, it’s one of the actual CPL maneuvers that could save your life one day
JPower96@reddit
Couldn't you counter though, that if there's only a short farm field available, that being able to put it down precisely where you intend to will be what keeps you and your passengers safe? I imagine that's the intention behind it.
avi8tes3152@reddit
100% This is the point of the maneuver. I believe it even discusses it in the AFH. Statistically, you probably won’t be lucky enough to have your engine die in the down wind. They want to see you have energy management and could put the plane down exactly where you intend to. IE a green belt in between houses, a culdesac, etc.
eSUP80@reddit
Maybe Im wrong here … but I don’t love the “you need to look outside a lot more” comments. Any pilot that wants to fly bigger iron is HEAVILY relying on instruments.
This whole checkride sounds tedious and very strict.
Inside-Jackfruit8647@reddit
Awwww
Correct_Cap_6087@reddit
I totally don't get the whole "looking inside the airplane too much" thing. I've been given the same criticism. I don't look inside the whole time by any means, but if I have a good scan of the instruments going, what's the problem? What are the instruments there for, if not to look at? What's so bad about calling out airpseed a few times on base and final, and looking at bank angle and altitude during steep turns?
Is there any objectively good reason for this gem of inherited wisdom other than "we've always done it this way" or "that's what i was expected to do, now you're expected to".?
Then again i just failed my PP check ride due to a power on stall, so WTF do I know?
minimums_landing@reddit
The commercial checkride is rough, because of the PO180 because it’s one of the only landings that you cannot go around from…..if you are not set up very well, there is very little you can do to correct. While there is a TON of skill that goes into that maneuver….as someone who passed my commercial first try, I would be lying if I didn’t admit that there is a tiny bit of luck that goes into it, because all it takes is a bad gust or misjudging your reference point to screw it all up. That’s why airlines are usually understanding of 1 or 2 disapprovals, especially for difficult maneuvers like the power off 180. Just get back on the horse and get that power off 180 second try!
Mammoth_Impress_3108@reddit
Had two friends join this club on the same day this past week. You'll get it next time.
thegree2112@reddit
And she's absolutely right
just Look at Sully on the Hudson
EliMinivan@reddit
I'm in PPL training atm, during my pre-solo stage check flight I made a very similar mistake on the power off 180 resulting in a go around, but on the climb out I hit a god damned bird. It was both my and my 3k+ hour instructors first bird strike lol.
Vihurah@reddit
airlines should have a big LCD screen for interviewees with a number. if their checkride failure was a PO180, have a big red buzzer add 1 to the tally. feels like every other pilot has had a bust on that.
as for the stalls, thats weird, but hey you got through it. get ready for the quickest 15 minutes of your life, and welcome to the club
Mostly-airworthy@reddit
Appreciate you posting and talking about your experience. I had a fail on my first attempt at instrument, caused by trying to fly cold after a 6-week hiatus caused by a maintenance problem. Bad idea, but no one ever mentioned the impacts of a fail on future employment prospects, so I didn’t take it as seriously as I should have.
Posts like yours help to get the word out and while we don’t want students to be nervous, they should make sure they are ready.
TobyADev@reddit
Aw mate. Always another chance, next time you’ll ace it I’m sure
ProbablyAHuman713@reddit
I failed my first commercial checkride, too, but on the ground knowledge. Went home and felt bad for myself for an hour, but studied and retested a two days later with everything going perfectly. It stings for a little while, but it gets better. It also pushed me to become a better pilot
R-slash-IHaveNoName@reddit
What happened on the ground portion? I’m looking to take my commercial checkride this month and would like any help I can get
ProbablyAHuman713@reddit
Nothing in particular. I used to have really bad nerves on checkrides and just blanked on some easy questions. Funnily enough, failing that checkride was the last time I had bad nerves on one. My next two, CFI and CFII were my best rides by a mile. I was putting way too much pressure on myself to be perfect. My best advice is to make sure you have strong fundamentals and don't put too much pressure on yourself.
Status_Climate_6860@reddit
It be like that. I failed my CPL for that too. So fucking retarded. I began crying lowkey when I got back to my room. Went back 3 days later. Had a 0.3 flight.
taxcheat@reddit
Wait, what's a near-fail altitude? Aside from the odd/even +500 or terrain, it's entirely subjective.
fgflyer@reddit (OP)
I got fixated on other aspects of the XC flight planning and entirely neglected to notice that my routing took me within 1100 feet of mountainous terrain for at least 35 miles. It was a completely stupid oversight, I was so flabbergasted I didn’t even know what to say.
taxcheat@reddit
Yikes. But, hey, 500' is all you need (91.119). You were double the minimum safe altitude.
hawker1172@reddit
Why are you acting like it is unusual for a DPE to hold you to ACS standards?
fgflyer@reddit (OP)
I’m… not?? It was completely my fault for bungling the power off 180.
hawker1172@reddit
“She’s nice but holds the ACS standards to a tee”
D_DJ_W@reddit
I am 7/8 on Checkrides. Only task I ever failed was PO 180. I'm cursing it to this day 😄 just keep rollin!
TxAggieMike@reddit
CA.VII.B.S8 Recover at the first indication of a stall or after a full stall has occurred, as specified by the evaluator.
You were correct in asking how far to take the stall.
For the gallery, I advise my students to ask about such things during the flight briefing so any chance of confusion is low.
Lancair-driver@reddit
“I asked her “would you like me to take it to full break, or first indication?” to which she responded “I want you to do it to standards. What does the ACS say?” And in that moment, I completely blanked; my CFI and I had emphasized taking it to full break, and so I did. I did the same thing for the power-on stall.”
Please show her what the ACS says:” recover at first indication […]or after a full stall has occurred as specified by the evaluator” commercial ACS
pilotjlr@reddit
In the past (I think in the PTS days), commercial standards were to first indication only. So this is yet another example of a DPE not staying current and not understanding the current ACS.
Lancair-driver@reddit
Funny thing is OP did exactly what the ACS said. They asked the evaluator.
Altec5499@reddit
Two skill areas-
-Acknowledge the cues at the first indication of a stall (e.g., aircraft buffet, stall horn, etc.).
-Recover at the first indication of a stall or after a full stall has occurred, as specified by the evaluator.
olek2012@reddit
It happens. Don’t sweat it too much. Re train, practice a bunch, and go take care of business. You’ll be a commercial pilot soon!
MaskedxSniper@reddit
I did the exact same thing but I landed too short. Retested a week later and nailed it. I'm glad to see you admit it, a lot of people would blame the examiner. The only thing I have to comment on is the fact that you should have to do a go around regardless per the ACS, but I'd have to double check. It's completely fair game to give you the unsat, but I've seen a lot of examiners "give you another try" by counting that as a go around and have you repeat. Just curious if you had already done a go around, but good luck on your retest!
fgflyer@reddit (OP)
Nope, it was my first try. I know some examiners will let you “try again” because you have to demonstrate a go around per the ACS, but… no such luck. First try, and she unsat’ed me. Which she is totally within her right to do
MaskedxSniper@reddit
Yep it's completely fair. She sounds nice, just a little unlucky that it isn't her style. Ah well, you're gonna learn more about energy management and come out of your retest as a commercial pilot!
the_doctor_808@reddit
Ay me too. Aced it and landed short on PO 180.
LeagueResponsible985@reddit
Welcome to the club.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Well, now I can officially say I am in the “did every single thing to ACS standards except for the power-off 180” club.
Took my Commercial SEL checkride today with Mo Mayo out of KTIW. She is very fair and a nice woman, but she follows the ACS exactly to the letter and is very firm and holds you to a very high standard. The oral only took an hour and a half and went relatively smoothly, except for me not making the best decision with my planned altitude for the cross country flight planning. That right there almost resulted in an unsat, but I demonstrated that I learned from it and so she elected to continue. The rest of the oral went fine and we moved on to the flight.
We did a soft field takeoff, did the first few legs of the XC, then broke off to set up for steep turns followed by slow flight, both of which I did just fine. Then she had me recover from slow flight into cruise configuration, and then set up for a power off stall. I asked her “would you like me to take it to full break, or first indication?” to which she responded “I want you to do it to standards. What does the ACS say?” And in that moment, I completely blanked; my CFI and I had emphasized taking it to full break, and so I did. I did the same thing for the power-on stall.
We then did the emergency descent immediately followed by an impromptu, steep spiral, where she actually took control of the throttle and just had me do the spiral. We then went into eights on pylons, which took me a while to set up for with the right winds, but I found some and did them well. Then we did chandelles and lazy eights, both of which were well within standards but she noted that I was looking at the instruments too much. After that, we did unusual attitudes, and she had me close my eyes and try to hold straight and level, then enter into a steep turn, open my eyes, and recover.
Then we headed back to Tacoma, where she had me perform a short field landing first. I came in a little low and dragged my approach a little bit, but I hit my touchdown point within standards. Then we set up for the power off 180. And that’s where I messed up… I ended up turning too soon, and I ended up being too high. So, I ended up putting the 182 into a fairly aggressive forward slip to get down, but it wasn’t enough. I elected to go around which she commended me for.
After that, we did the soft field landing, which was great. We taxied back in and said that I did well overall, but I did unsat the power off 180. We went back into the FBO with my CFI to debrief, and she basically emphasized to me that a commercial pilot needs to think outside of the box when it comes to safety at every single aspect of the flight. She noted that I have a tendency to get task saturated, and I also have very bad testing anxiety. She commended me on how well I flew all of my maneuvers, but she said that I really need to look outside a lot more.
She gave me my disapproval letter and I’m going back up with my CFI tomorrow to practice PO180s, and then take my (hopefully brief!) retest on Tuesday afternoon.
This is my first checkride failure, so obviously I’m pretty bummed out about it. But overall, I think that I got a fair checkride, and valid criticisms. The only thing both me and my CFI are a little put off about is that when it comes to stalls, the ACS does say that they should be taken to first indication ORas specified by the evaluator, so that caused me confusion when I asked her if she wanted me to do first indication or full break.
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