French intelligence claims China trying to foil global sale of Rafale jets | Weapons News

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ericDXwow@reddit

You guys must love Germans given that you surrender that fast in WWII lol. Bended over faster than my girlfriend

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ericDXwow@reddit

Wow ppl got hurt lol. I mean the french surrendered in fucking 2 weeks. Can it be any faster?

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Dramatic-Addendum775@reddit

2 weeks ? yeah you might want to open an history book to avoid embarrassing yourself even more !

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ericDXwow@reddit

Yeah 6 weeks make France a successful country in WWII lol

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Fearyn@reddit

Your country would still be a fucking colony of it weren’t for France brother ;)

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Fearyn@reddit

Not sure about that. Your gf bends pretty fast indeed

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GiveUpYouAlreadyLost@reddit

That's not a surprise, do the French like anybody?

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Fearyn@reddit

We don’t. We don’t even like other French people.

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49thDipper@reddit

I haven’t done anything to piss them off

My country has though

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CreepyDepartment5509@reddit

Countries still won’t buy chinese jets, they’re just dangling it as leverage for a better deal.

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fufa_fafu@reddit

China foiled global rafale sales by making cheaper and better planes. Darn CCP agents mind controlling Dassualt engineers to make shitty planes!

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picollosmom@reddit

Dfac is this logic? The Rafale is great. Pakistan just has better jet pilots than India (they were trained by US before)

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No_Public_7677@reddit

The key difference was Pakistan integrating data links with their AWACS and using EW to jam data links on the Indian side.

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That is the difference, Pakistan used its connections with China to not just buy a jet, but the entire system around it. With everything linked together to form a defensive net. And as a reward for doing well with the J-10, Pakistan now gets J-35’s since they proved themselves capable

India doesn’t have the friends to give them the tech, can’t develop it on their own so they have to buy overpriced downgraded export jets that they don’t even get the source code to data link it with the defensive systems they already have and even if they did well with the Rafale, it’s not like France has a 5th gen fighter to sell them

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No_Public_7677@reddit

Yup, in modern air combat individual platforms matter less than the entire networked system. The exception being stealth aircraft, where low RCS does matter.

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AlBarbossa@reddit

Even stealth aircraft need EW cover against peer opponents

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ScoobyGDSTi@reddit

Decades ago, sure.

But the pilots today, were trained alongside China. Which makes sense given you know, it's a Chinese fighter...

The American trained pilots you refer to likely are well and truely retired given the relatively short careers of fighter pilots.

Sorry, but China isn't as incompetent as some want to make out. Nor the US that amazing.

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

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AlBarbossa@reddit

China wasn’t the one saying the Rafale was the greatest 4.5 in the world just to shit the bed when things got real

The arms market is very competitive and the Rafale simply cost too much and delivers too little. France is now on the outside looking in now that non aligned countries are looking to the Gripen as a better alternative

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qonkk@reddit

Indonesia just bought more Rafales lol.

Yes one was shot down, but we don't know just how good it performed the tasks it was attributed to during the operation. India failed to use AWACS and seemingly didn't add Meteors to the mix, they underestimated the A2A/SEAD part. But there's plenty footage of ground targets destroyed inside Pakistan.

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AlBarbossa@reddit

Indonesia already had the order in before Sindoor

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qonkk@reddit

They want 24 more (article from 3 days ago):

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/l-indonesie-pourrait-acquerir-jusqu-a-24-rafale-supplementaires-1028859.html

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No_Public_7677@reddit

Yes, but that was planned way before

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qonkk@reddit

They bought before, now they want more.

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No_Public_7677@reddit

Yes, but the plan to buy more is not new to this month

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ZeEa5KPul@reddit

France is now on the outside looking in now that non aligned countries are looking to the Gripen as a better alternative

That's an odd way of spelling J-10C.

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mdang104@reddit

How can you compare Rafale and Gripen and claim that it “delivers too little”?

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AlBarbossa@reddit

India was paying over 200 mil per unit

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mdang104@reddit

Did you take the contract total amount, and divide it by the amount of airplane purchase?

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AlBarbossa@reddit

No because it was what they were paying per unit in a very controversial process with corruption allegations going all the way up to Modi himself

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mdang104@reddit

I’m sure there was corruption involved. The Indian Rafales also contains a couple differences increasing their bass price. A couple additional side arrays, EW/ECM, towed decoy… What other option should they have gotten instead?

Super Hornet: older, not as good as Rafale, US reliance. But cheaper.
F15EX: not bad. Proven. New/old. No naval variant. US-reliance.
F21: no naval variant. Not as good as Rafale. US-reliance once again.
F35: LOL
Gripen: excellent valued lightweight fighter. No naval variant. Rafale is twice the airplane the Gripen is.
Mig31: just a more modern upgrade to their naval Mig29. Cheap. Again not enough airplane/ nowhere close to Rafale.

-J16: probably one of the best options. But China would rather do business with their neighbor.

Even if Rafale isn’t the cheapest. It’s clearly the best option for India’s requirements since they will be operating land/naval variants.

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No_Public_7677@reddit

"Rafale simply cost too much and delivers too little."

That's the key. It's way too expensive for a non-stealth aircraft. It's a very good fighter but not worth the money for a peer conflict.

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No_Public_7677@reddit

What did they want the Chinese to do instead? Praise the Rafale to potential customers?

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BWanon97@reddit

Well the more I read the article the more it became clear that the tactics they use are a bit questionable. Influencing the public with fake/disinformation.

Initially I assumed that they meant lobbying with the government. Which is not weird at all.

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outtayoleeg@reddit

I don't think they need to fake anything given their J-10s mogged Rafales a couple months ago

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BWanon97@reddit

Please elaborate. Because how I see it they just had a loss that is not in any way significant enough to say something about the capabilities of the aircraft.

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No_Public_7677@reddit

Rafale SPECTRA was supposed to prevent BVR shots and it didn't.

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BWanon97@reddit

That seems an unrealistic spec.

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No_Public_7677@reddit

It is

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SameStand9266@reddit

The aircraft fell 95 km behind the border with it's A2A melted to its wings.

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Caspi7@reddit

There is a big argument to be made that this was very much a mistake by India and their planning. Not so much Rafale

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tnsnames@reddit

Argument are that J-10 both have better radar and better missiles vs which Rafale defence measures(be it EW or ability to maunver vs missiles) were not adequate which lead to one sided combat losses. What is important are that it was also kinda deep in Indian airspace, so kinda favorable envivornment to operate.

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FlyAdministrative939@reddit

You can say that about a lot of aircraft then, to some extent it does bring in question the capability of the aircraft as well. Especially the much hyped spectra EW suite which didn’t seem to be effective.

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MirageHD68@reddit

Yeah that’s the kind of BS China is pulling. Internet bots influencing public opinions.

You're either a bot, or a random believing a Chinese bot 🤷‍♂️

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ScoobyGDSTi@reddit

Pretty normal for global arms trade.

Ask the French their opinions on the ethics of the US when it comes to foreign fighter tenders.

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Duckbilling2@reddit

mmm with honey mustard dipping sauce

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Flashy-Ambition4840@reddit

Is the public buying Rafale?

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BWanon97@reddit

No but very influential in decisionmaking by legislators.

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tnsnames@reddit

There is nothing fake in Rafale failure in India. Especially considering that it was first time Rafale had actually seen real combat. And how much bs PR we were fed about superiority of Rafale vs cheap Chinese fighters. That now Rafale get dragged through mud due to its poor perfomance in real combat are direct result of too much PR prior to it.

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ScoobyGDSTi@reddit

Hush now, we can't have people see this as the rubbish red scare beat up that it is!

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Sophey68@reddit

Probably something something free market something something

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monsantobreath@reddit

In the west were supposed to think only we should operate as sovereign geopolitical entities. Everyone else is intruding.

Nobody in the French government thinks how the story they sell to the papers wants us to think.

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cookingboy@reddit

I mean if I were the Chinese government I would totally do that lol. It would be wonderful if U.S allies around China switch to Rafale instead.

“Duuuude the Rafale is so good none of our PL-15s even got close! French has the world’s first 6th gen fighter!!! Hell they shot Pakistan’s J-10s out of the sky with lasers! You guys should totally get this over those garbage F-35s instead ;)”

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UnreliableSRE@reddit

So we're supposed to avoid talking about the Rafale that got shot down in India to protect Dassault's reputation? That's actually kind of funny.

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shoturtle@reddit

Still only claims from Pakistan. Like the Indian claim of downing chinese jets. No photo of actually wreackage from either side.

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UnreliableSRE@reddit

India has more or less confirmed it already, by neither confirming nor denying Pakistan's claim, and saying that "losses are a part of combat". And that's true. The Rafale, like any other fighter, isn't invincible.

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shoturtle@reddit

It is all speculation what was shot down. That is the bottom line. Until there is visual evidence it was a rafeal. It could be a mig, taj or sepcat for all we know.

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Patient_Leopard421@reddit

Umm, there was plenty of visual evidence and even acknowledgement from Dassault executives iirc.

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shoturtle@reddit

Fake was debunked

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KnownInvestigator198@reddit

I remembered India Modi media also bragged about how they defeated Chinese invaders in 2020. And then China released the captured Indian solders videos.
I know Indians always need link sources, check it yourself and tell me if it is true or AI generated: https://res.cloudinary.com/quantil-cdn/video/upload/v1730181301/Galwan_xrcxdi.mp4

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KnownInvestigator198@reddit

Just wanna see if you are real critical thinker or just coping:
Does this video look authentic to you? Do you believe Chinese claims or Indian claims in 2020?
https://res.cloudinary.com/quantil-cdn/video/upload/v1730181301/Galwan_xrcxdi.mp4

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shoturtle@reddit

Both sides make crazy claims. Me i somt pay much attention to claims. I just wait for real news sources to vet all their claims. The Ukrainian shot down of the Russian su34 was substantiated, and the photo wreckage was legit.

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No_Public_7677@reddit

There are literal pictures of a Rafale engine debris in India but that's not enough.

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shoturtle@reddit

Also link to the dassault statement please.

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Jazzlike-Tank-4956@reddit

Indian government or IAF has not yet made full claims to shooting down any Chinese jet

You're thinking of media which is dogshit

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shoturtle@reddit

Right now everything is speculation. Even the claim dasault exec confirmed is bs. But china and pakistan groups are pushing this bs for their own gains. All the wreakage photos i have seen looks like drones.

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Jazzlike-Tank-4956@reddit

I personally don't really care

The entire conflict's focus has been entirely on Rafale loss, and everyone pretty much ignored the bombed targets.

IAF losses a dozen fighters a year, and do people think every one of those loss were strategic?

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shoturtle@reddit

Yup and it gets no press.

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Brief-Visit-8857@reddit

Dassault’s CEO actually refuted the loss of a Rafale due to combat. He said it was due to a “technical failure”

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cookingboy@reddit

Citation?

And even if he made that claim and even if that claim was true, doesn’t that make it even worse?

“Uh huh you didn’t shoot down our jet, our jet fell out of the sky by itself!”

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UnreliableSRE@reddit

Yeah, exactly.

The Rafale's a great fighter, no doubt, but losses in combat are part of the reality.

Now, a jet dropping out of the sky right when you need it most... that's a lot harder to defend.

Dassault getting that defensive is honestly kind of embarrassing.

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monsantobreath@reddit

I think it speaks to the propaganda mentality of this era. We're nowhere near mutual respect detente. We're in a multi polar world where the decaying western hegemony is panicking like they think it's still unipolar.

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Brief-Visit-8857@reddit

The last time India stayed quiet about a combat loss was in 2019 because they shot one of their own helicopter down. Took a while to come out

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

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outtayoleeg@reddit

Which is even worse? He thinks anyone would want to buy a jet that takes itself out in combat

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Cesalv@reddit

Being french they'll surely already surrendered

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zincboymc@reddit

What a funny and original joke !

/s

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Still-Ambassador2283@reddit

File this under "duh". Why wouldn't the Chinese disparage all other jets to sell its J-10c and future J-35 to?

The US did it too. We GUTTED European fighter manufacturers to push the F-35 far and wide.

Its just good business.

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atape_1@reddit

I mean... they are selling the jet to everyone, they should expect varying outcomes of engagements it partakes in.

It is a fine jet, but it's only as good as the pilot, the mission planning, execution etc. Some engagements will end with less than favourable results.

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AlBarbossa@reddit

Not for a 200 mil per unit multirole workhorse fighter it isn’t

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Iamkempie@reddit

Kind of like a guitar.

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GoldenMaus@reddit

and my axe!

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Electronic-Speed-415@reddit

Lol, people in comments have become overweight aviation experts.

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notpiercedtongue@reddit (OP)

I mean this is an aviation sub buddy.

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Lyravus@reddit

The fact that a Rafale was shot down doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad plane. It could be. But getting shot down isn't proof on its own.

Indeed, the Rafales earlier performance in Libya and in Evyptian evaluations against the Su35 would suggest it's actually quite capable when employed effectively.

This comment is about an earlier generation of fighters but it's well written and the basic points remain applicable to 4.5th or 5th gen platforms: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarCollege/s/JxYhL1bOOV

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