Ferrari to Manual Gearbox Fans: Just Buy Used
Posted by Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 150 comments
Posted by Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 150 comments
CorneliusVan@reddit
I love me a manual as much as the next guy, but...
I've had the enormous privilege of driving both a F1 599 and a gated manual 599. Driving those two back to back really industry why the gated box has gone the way of the dodo for the Scuderia.
That 15ish year old car was too fast for a gated box. It's so quick, it gains and drops revs so quickly, and anyone who's ever driven a real gated car will tell you, that style of gearbox can't be hustled like that consistently. You have to be so brutal with it that it feels wrong.
...and the cars have only gotten faster since.
MisterSquidInc@reddit
That's quite literally why Ferrari introduced the gate in the first place, to slow down the shifts so drivers wouldn't break the gearbox in their race cars.
CorneliusVan@reddit
Huh, I had no idea; that makes a lot of sense. Where'd you learn that?
MisterSquidInc@reddit
In a book about old racing cars, a long time ago now
woodsides@reddit
Or spend about $40M acquiring past and present Ferraris in order to get in line for the Icona SP4.
unatleticodemadrid@reddit
Daunting task. I’d love some of their newer stuff but I don’t even know where to start.
woodsides@reddit
A friend of mine decided to do this in the US a few years ago. He basically went to the local dealer and said that he wanted to get the then unreleased LaF successor. The dealer basically laid out a multi year game plan and guided him through it. At that point he only had a 812 GTS, 488 pista and a GTC4Lusso. He started of by ordering all the new cars on offer, SF90 coupe and spider, Roma coupe and spider and later 296 coupe and spider and and Purosangue. Specced all of them very heavily, Tailor made and Atelier whenever possible.
Next, he acquired a F40, LaFerrari and 458 Speciale Aperta from the dealer in one year. The next year, he got a F50, Monza SP2 and a 812 Competizione Aperta (resale for $1.3M over MSRP). Last year, he bought a Daytona SP3 ($3.6M over MSRP). Apart from this, he went to all the Ferrari events his dealer invited him to, Pebble beach, F1, etc. He finally achieved his goal and for the allocation for F80 lats year. He also did the Classiche certification program for all his classics.
This probably could be done for cheaper but it would take longer. This process usually takes 6-7 years but he made it in under 4, but had to pay a price. So yeah, $40-50M for a Fastrack or $20-25M if you're more dedicated and have the time and energy to go racing in XX and challenge cars. That's the easiest path tbh. Gets you there in 3-4 years without too much money. To be honest, it's not really worth it if all you want is one car. Just pay the market premium and be done with it. But if you want to have access to all the new cars and want to be a part of the joint experience, it's worth it. All the cars will hold value and appreciate decently but most owners like him aren't in it for the gains (obviously terrible compared to elsewhere). They've got their businesses for that.
themasterofbation@reddit
Wait...so you lose $XX million by overpaying over MSRP and then selling the cars back on the cheap to the dealer. For a chance to buy (and yes, spec) a $3M F80?
While they are being offered at 2x MSRP, wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy on the 2nd market?
I guess if you got the money, it might be fun speccing all these cars? And now you are in the rotation for every other car that comes out...but if the plan was to buy the LaF successor...he could've just bought it without the hassle
woodsides@reddit
He wanted to be a part of the Ferrari experience, not just to buy a F80. As I said, if all you want is one Hypercar, pay the premium. But most like him are in it for the experience. He only rotates out the non-limited cars.
themasterofbation@reddit
That's fair...I think I'd play along with Ferrari if I had the means
Syscrush@reddit
What I read above is pure insanity. I'd rather spend $20M on a PR campaign about how everyone and everything associated with Ferrari is fuckin' horrible and another $30M on a YouTube channel featuring 308 restorations and demolition derbies.
woodsides@reddit
If you don't wanna play, there's 3000 people behind you dying to get a chance. Scoot over.
BrunoEye@reddit
Yeah, for that amount of money you could make your own hypercar.
Syscrush@reddit
You could actually learn to race and leave the hypercar bullshit behind.
BurninCoco@reddit
I would like to afford a 328 GTB one day
Seymour_Tamzarian@reddit
I believe the biggest selling point is the ability to spec out the F80 to his exact tastes, whereas buying it used 2nd hand would mean settling for what was available and might not be what you really wanted. Is that worth it, I dunno, to each their own though.
Past-Mousse-4519@reddit
The biggest selling point is ability to buy real F1 cars/499P and ability to do their own one-off car.
woodsides@reddit
You can just buy those from existing owners if all you want is that single car. He's currently looking at getting a FXX-K Evo, around $6M. If you want to get offered those cars, you gotta play the game. Most of the XX cars are garage queens too.
Past-Mousse-4519@reddit
You don't able to buy your own one-off but yeah in general everything have their own price.
mikolv2@reddit
He wasn't overpaying on the cars he sold back to the dealer, stuff like SF90 or Roma, anyone can walk in and order a car for MSRP, they're not limited or anything, or selling particularly well, they'll build you one if you want one. The stuff he overpaid for 812 Comp A or SP3, that stuff is not going down in value, ever; that will just keep appreciating. Limited edition NA V12 Ferraris are truly special.
The stuff he bought from the dealer, 2 SF90s, 2 Romas, 2 296s and a Puro, obviously depending on the spec, but I'd be surprised if all of that combined was more than $3-4mil, if he lost 50% of the value which again, on a car with little to no milage is probably a stretch. They at most lost $1.5-2 mil. F80 will instantly be worth that much over MSRP, so they could make all of their money back if they wanted to sell it straight away.
escoemartinez@reddit
I caught an interview with Jay Leno telling why he doesn’t buy Ferraris and after reading even more about stuff like this it makes sense.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Jay's info on this is outdated, it is easy to get a non-vs ferrari now. Just walk in and order a 296 to your exact tastes, no different to a 750. They've come a long way since the IPO
woodsides@reddit
Yeah this is only for the hypercars. Even the special editions can be had with 2-3 years of consistent spending in the range of 500k-1M a year along with tons of trades.
True-Classroom4961@reddit
Kind of a waste ngl, getting a car or getting an “experience” it’s not that cool
unatleticodemadrid@reddit
Yeah, that checks out from my conversations with Ferrari collectors too. Insane. Of the cars he’s owned, I’d like (and probably will acquire at some point) an F40, F50, LaF, and SP2 and will attend events. From what you’ve outlined, that’s still not enough to have your hat thrown in the ring for their newest releases.
I just have no interest in buying a fully loaded Purosangue/296/12C/Amalfi when I know I won’t ever drive them. Maybe I’m just too financially prudent (read:poor) to be part of the Ferrari VIP club.
woodsides@reddit
If it's any help, you are encouraged to rotate out most of the normal cars to your dealer every few years. You still need to have atleast 10-15 in possession.
If you can get these and a the current and future models, you should be in the running for whatever hyper comes out after the SP4. You have to remember that Ferrari itself makes no money off of you buying older Hypercars. It's just a requirement to weed out the wheat from the chaff when they're choosing the ones who they want to give the cars out to.
You'll still need to order all the new cars (my friend still does it, has a 12C coupe and spider and Amalfi on order now, along with SF90XX and 296 Speciale spiders) but can sell them off after a year of ownership. It's Ferrari's way of asking you to support them through the years of no-hypercars while also providing a fat revenue source for their dealers. Kind of a "you don't deserve me at my best if you weren't with me at my worst" kinda deal.
unatleticodemadrid@reddit
I can get there tomorrow but what I really need are the new vehicles.
And we've circled back to the problem. No matter what I buy, I still need to get a bunch of vehicles I truly could not care less about. Well anyway, I just placed an order for a 12C that'll rot in my garage.
woodsides@reddit
Why not order them and immediately trade them in to the dealer then, or atleast in a few months? I know a few who do that without even looking at the cars and some even store them at the dealer. Yeah you'll lose 1-2M over a few years but it'll massively help in building your profile. You would have to pay that in premiums for the hypercar anyways.
Sidenote - what else do you have apart from the Senna and the SL? Seems like a very interesting collection. Not very often that you see those both together.
unatleticodemadrid@reddit
That is the plan. I'm also about to close on a 296 GTS. I promised myself that I would cool off on acquisitions for the year but I just bid on a LaF and if that works out, I will cancel everything else.
Not much else that's noteworthy - (outside of flair) bunch of C, E, G, and S classes that belongs to home staff now.
woodsides@reddit
If you don't mind, what are those at now? Low $4s? I think apertas are in the high $5 range now. Congrats on the collection! It's turning out to be a stunner.
Oh it's a drug alright... Juuuust one more amirite.
unatleticodemadrid@reddit
I don't mind, I bid on an Aperta with the full battery replacement for 6.1.
You know how it goes...
woodsides@reddit
Does color play a role in those given that there's only 5 options? In my limited observation, yellows and blacks tend to go for more. Perhaps rarity.
unatleticodemadrid@reddit
I bid on a black unit, highly unlikely it goes through but I’m willing to up the offer. I’m not too keen on the Rosso Corsa units.
Thanks!
die-microcrap-die@reddit
And people wonder why I hate Ferrari with a passion.
Even if i had the money, i would never buy a ferrari.
Ferrucio was right in giving Enzo the middle finger.
Past-Mousse-4519@reddit
Every car manufacturer have done, does and would do the same shit with their special cars. And if you want just one car you have alternative in buying used car if you don't like brand.
Capri280@reddit
Does this mean he was able to sell the 812 he was made to buy above MSRP or he bought a used 812 for a hefty premium above MSRP?
woodsides@reddit
He kept his 812 GTS which he ordered new, it's his wife's favourite car. He bought the 812 Comp A for 1.4 over MSRP.
Particular_Flower111@reddit
Good for your friend, but I feel like they’re gonna get screwed on F80 values. They’re making way more of them than LaFerrari’s and the starting price is near $4mil already. I don’t see people paying $6+ million second hand for a V6 even though it will undoubtedly be a fantastic car. Im sure the opportunity to spec a Ferrari supercar makes up for it though.
woodsides@reddit
Again, as I said, this is not an investment for him. He's done that his whole life for a living and continues to do so. This for him is about acquiring a remarkable collection like he always wanted to do. Do you think he really cares if he loses a mil or 2 on the F80? It's not like he's selling it anytime soon. He's planning on speccing the F80 along with his young daughter next month in Italy. It's a lot more than just a car collection for him. And in the worst case scenario, the whole collection will hold its value. Not bad eh?
Particular_Flower111@reddit
I respect that. We need more collectors like him rather than ones that see cars as investments that should never be touched. At the end of the day it’s about how cars make us feel.
woodsides@reddit
I'm in the camp of "their money, their choice" tbh. He doesn't really drive them all that much. It was more of a check box item for him. But if you are in the camp that thinks that it is sinister to do so, then he's no saint. I think he's put on less that 5k miles in all the cars combined in the years that he's owner them. The SP3 hasn't moved since he got it last year except for the day on which he took delivery (drove it to his favourite restaurant 70 miles away) and for the day where it was transported on a flatbed to the dealer for the yearly service. The LaF was already a low mileage car and he put on around 400-500 miles in 2 years. It's not that he doesn't like driving them but that he has almost no time to lol. He's hired a garage manager to make sure the cars are in a running condition. The cars are taken out for a spin around the block a couple of times every month.
litlron@reddit
What does your friend do? They are extremely rich but still do some form of actual work?
woodsides@reddit
Entrepreneur turned partner at a fund. He's a billionaire.
strongmanass@reddit
I cannot imagine wanting one single car from one single manufacturer that much regardless of how much money I have. I feel like no single car could live up to going through all that and buying so many exquisite cars at millions over list just as checkboxes.
woodsides@reddit
He didn't want a single car. He wanted to get into the "Ferrari Ecosystem" and all that comes with it. It was one of his checklist items to have a collection like this and achieved it. The F80 was just a part of it. As I said, if all you want is one car, just pay 2-3x MSRP in resale. But, you lose the ability to customize it and won't get access to any other cars.
strongmanass@reddit
Ok gotcha. The way you described it sounded like a list of very expensive chores. But if it was all part of the experience he was after then he got what he wanted and I'm sure he's happy.
woodsides@reddit
Depends on how and which perspective you look at it tbh. For him, throwing $50M at a lifelong dream was a no brainer, he makes a lot more than that. But if you're someone in the league of buying the normal Ferraris, this whole thing does look like a massive bootlicking competition. But then again, I like it and and to that I say, To each their own. End of the day it's all supply and demand in a fancy wrapper.
iLovUporsche911@reddit
this is the mother of all pyramid schemes
dagelijksestijl@reddit
Getting into the top of Scientology almost sounds effortless in comparison
Rabo_McDongleberry@reddit
TIL... That I'll never be in this world. 😂
But that's some cool information man. Thank you.
headcoat2013@reddit
Was he pleased with the F80 when it was revealed? It seems to be really polarizing and lacks the timeless beauty of its predecessors. I would absolutely have to love it at first sight for it to be worth all that time and money he spent to get it.
woodsides@reddit
It wasn't love at first sight since his previous expectations of a Hypercar were more along the lines of the LaF and SP3. But 8 months along, he loves it now, especially after seeing it in the flesh a couple of times, most recently at LeMans. He's going out to Italy to spec the car next month.
GTE_Engineering@reddit
Here’s why they won’t do it: because it would have to be less powerful to keep it from blowing up the transmission, but they’d get flamed because they sure as shit wouldn’t be charging less for a slower car.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
The main reason why is that the people who are moaning about it aren't the ones buying the cars.
Hardly anyone ordered a manual 612, 599 or California. And even the F430 manual isn't exactly some super desirable variant people are chasing.
Porsche GT buyers might want manuals, but it appears that Ferrari buyers do not.
dalittle@reddit
I own a Ferrari and would rather have a manual.
MisterSquidInc@reddit
Are you in the market for a new one though?
GTE_Engineering@reddit
That’s because those cars came out near when the GTR came out, and we were starting to see how much faster cars were getting with single/dual clutch transmissions. Because of that, people especially wanted them, not the slower manuals.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
I'm not sure if that's really the only reason though - there was a huge amount of negative sentiment when Porsche dropped the manual from the GT3 in the 991 generation, to the point that it was reintroduced for the 991.2.
When Ferrari and Lamborghini dropped the manual, there was nothing but a shrugging of shoulders. I think the people who buy these cars just aren't interested. There doesn't seem to be a mad rush to push Mercedes AMG or Audi Sport to push out manual cars either, despite BMW M offering them.
Docist@reddit
I think the point is that the times changed and many people saw that outright speed isn’t as interesting as engagement. Porsche saw this shift and learned and reverted course and are profiting massively. Ferrari and Lamborghini are watching what’s happening with their used manual car values and are sitting on their bums. They are missing out on a whole segment of drivers that are not even considering their cars with no manual.
strongmanass@reddit
They are missing out on those drivers, but I'm not sure there are enough of them to constitute a"whole segment". And they're dwarfed by prospective buyers who don't care about the lack of a manual transmission.
86Austin@reddit
my friend - with peace, love, and kindness... I do not know how to tell you this but cars are even more powerful today than they were when the GTR was released and the "paddles are faster" thing is even more at play with such power increases.
ALaLaLa98@reddit
That is some grade-A bullshit right there.
No offence. I've seen that statement before, but I'm not sure if they've actually said that. With Ferrari, it's always been their way, or the highway. You don't like their lightning fast double clutch automatic? Too bad. There's a huge line of people who do. And they know it.
MNAAAAA@reddit
Genuine question: what about manuals vs dsgs make the manuals more fragile?
OldSchoolSpyMain@reddit
Yup. The max HP for manual cars that you can wring out and hear the engine wail without going to jail, destroying the drivetrain, or killing someone is about 400 HP. The sweet spot is about 300Hp.
Guess how much HP the “great” manual transmission cars of around 25 years ago had?
nico_juro@reddit
290
LA-ncevance@reddit
No. C7 ZR1 has 755hp and I daily drove a manual 650hp ZL1 for years.
pdp10@reddit
Nonsense. Graziano, Ricardo, Xtrac, and others, make 1000 lb/ft manual mid-engine transaxles for OEM and aftermarket. GM used manual transaxles in the Corvette for decades, including the C7 ZR1 at 715 lb/ft with warranty.
vagabond139@reddit
No they wouldn't have to make them slower to keep the transmission from blowing up. The CC850 is a manual but makes over 1300hp and over 1000ft/lb of torque. The C7 ZR1 made 755/715. The Pagani Utopia makes over 800/800. The Hennessey Venom GT makes 1,451 hp/1,287 lb-ft. You can make insane power with a manual transmission. Not saying it is cheap to develop a manual transmission to handle the power but it is not as if a Ferrari was cheap to begin with.
MasoFFXIV@reddit
Next level exclusivity. Ferrari blows up in a fiery explosion if the driver ever so slightly mistimes their shift.
NoctD@reddit
Nah - I’ll just buy a Porsche.
michaelalex3@reddit
I mean respectfully you were not gonna buy a new Ferrari lol.
Wingbreaker2@reddit
Unfortunately the highest Porsche's are the same game. 918, Turbos, and the GT3RS are all DCT.
So long as they keep the GT3 with manual that's good, though I would love if they offered the GT3RS.
I went C8Z06, but if it were possible for me to get one I would've went GT3 in a heartbeat 10x over for the manual.
I've been a Corvette guy, but I'm eyeballing Porsche heavily in the last few years for still keeping the stick alive. Especially now that GM has heavily encrypted the new widebody C8s to make tuning impossible, half the fun of Corvettes was cheap modifications for big power and that's no longer a thing.
willpc14@reddit
(Potentially) Hot Take: I don't have an issue with cars that are focused on lap times above all else being DCT only. DCTs are simply faster and fite the character of those cars.
Cars that are focused on driving experience, engagement, or enjoyment, should at least be offered with a manual as a no cost option for those who prefer rowing their own gears.
nlpnt@reddit
On that note I expect the last new car on the US market with a manual will end up being the Miata.
NoctD@reddit
Don't forget the Carrera GT, 911R, 911S/T and 911 Sport Classic. Next Turbo is not here yet - if they hybridize it then no manual but if they keep it non-hybrid I could see them stealing from the Sport Classic formula for a manual 992.2 Turbo as well. Maybe they'll differentiate the next Turbo and Turbo S with different powertrains and transmissions. Unfortunately their prices are going thru the roof these days!
B0bab0i@reddit
Cr-z was a hybrid with manual.
thegunnersdaughter@reddit
It was, but only possible due to the relatively simple hybrid design (electric motor sandwiched between a traditional engine and transmission) that is not commonly used these days.
Free_Range_Gamer@reddit
I can’t afford those high trim Porsches anyways, so not made about lack of manual. I can’t afford the low trim Porsches either though.
Wingbreaker2@reddit
Segueue, how do you like the GTS 4.0? The new GT3 is unobtainable to me but a well specced GT4 is within the realm.
NoctD@reddit
Honestly I'm still kicking myself for not getting a 981 GT4 back in 2016. The 718/982 4.0l flat-6 is lacking that baritone howl of the old flat-6 engines, it sings a lower bassy rumble instead. Long gearing in the manual is true, doesn't bother me as much but I can see why many complain about it. The car is too capable to really explore the limits of on the road, Tail of the Dragon is probably the most I've pushed it but since it was my first time there and the car was new too, I didn't push my luck too much.
NinthTide@reddit
This is a very accurate review. I’m in a 718 Spyder / manual / buckets. The engine note is alright, but lower in pitch - no real shriek or fizz, and a bit lacking in “menace” I suppose. Strangely it sounds best when pulling torque from mid revs, say, 5k or so, when it has this more meaty purpose to it.
The long gearing is not a massive pain but you end up shifting for the hell of it rather than real necessity. Most of my fun driving is between 2nd and 3rd, and the heel and toe downshifts are good fun. You’re pushing your lucky substantially revving it out in 2nd, and you are throwing away all caution if you get deep into 3rd. Forget about pushing in the higher gears.
The car feels so damn special though.
The handling is stupidly over competent for the road, and with the buckets and Cup 2Rs the cornering and agility are tremendous. So yes, there is a strong sense of the car being too good to explore in real world situations, but at which point I settle back into a brisk cruise and enjoy the rarity and specialness of it, and realise I don’t have to always be in a qualifying lap.
For me; this is my first convertible. Having the roof down in the sunshine, wind in the hair, great music in the Bose stereo, and giving it the occasional leg stretching blast of revs - it’s a pretty great experience to offset the few minor drawbacks
I just wish I knew how many had been sold into Australia. My guess is perhaps around 50, which is quite cool
Recommended
OOHTAMTAMMY@reddit
Yeah, as if Porsche and Ferrari compete for sales
kon---@reddit
MT diehards and dying, hard.
It's so goofy. There's a tiny...tinny AF window when traffic opens enough for an MT to be anything other than a slog.
But look, put these same people in a car with a column mounted shifter. Or put them in a manual tractor. Or put them in a manual drill rig.
All this about manual trans being better experience comes from people who siply refuse to accept rowing adds no benefit nor creates any better of a connection with the car.
At no point does an automatic prevent its pilot from controlling which gear the vehicle is in. You can go all the fuck the way back to 3-speed ATs, there was always the ability to choose the gear. Now here we are, over two decades of the gear lever able to shift up or down manually and over a decade of paddle shifters being standard kit.
Get over it already.
tujuggernaut@reddit
There was not. Lots of automatic cars offed Low and 2nd drive options, but not 3rd or 4th gear hold selections. Early automatic transmission computers were not great at which gear to pick and would often start 'hunting' at the wrong time on the track.
kon---@reddit
So you're saying...
there was the option to choose the gear.
tujuggernaut@reddit
Not all of the gears, no. If had a 4 speed and wanted it to hold 3rd, you couldn’t do it on many autos.
Standard-Potential-6@reddit
I wait for computers to listen to my inputs (and fix them) as a career. Love it. but I'd never subject my evening drive to the same bullshit.
If you could obtain a well-serviced PDK or similar, something that holds any gear you want and issues manual shifts without delay in a car under $20-25K, you might have a point.
Even were that true, being able to feel and manage exactly how power connects and disconnects is enormously enjoyable. The chance to fuck up or perform my best start ever is what makes executing a launch interesting.
Enjoy the auto. I'd probably want to relax and be chauffeured around too, maybe once I reach middle or late age. All that needs getting over is the simple fact that different folks derive satisfaction in different ways.
kon---@reddit
I'm a paddle shifter
Standard-Potential-6@reddit
wake me up when there's a clutch paddle
kon---@reddit
Wake yourself.
In the mean time enjoy other throw backs such as cranks to roll your window down, not having a defroster, or navigation, streaming radio, adaptive suspension, 360 camera view and a shit ton of other automotive engineering advances I'm sure you are completely fine with.
Standard-Potential-6@reddit
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit (OP)
A lot of automatic cars, even if they have paddle shifters are super restrictive, they wont let you downshift when you want if you are driving hard to prevent regular people from money shifting.
But this also means that if you know what you are doing and trying to drop a gear to get into a higher RPM, it wont let you.
pdp10@reddit
To prevent their CAFE number from dropping, probably just as importantly. I had a rented Lexus IS350 that I never figured out how to get to downshift, though admittedly I didn't sit down with the manual to find out. I think the downshift paddle was just a placebo on that model.
DCTs are technically interesting, though only McLaren openly acknowledges that the 'box can only be in one of the next-higher gear or next-lower gear, not both. Ford managed to make a large volume of bad DCTs, as well.
kon---@reddit
All I've ever encountered are cars that prevent the operator from blowing up the transmission by cutting of the flow of fuel. They do not stop the operator from selecting a gear.
turb0_encapsulator@reddit
This is such a weird thing for a corporation to say. Why not make the product people want?
lifegoeson2702@reddit
The r/cars way!
OldSchoolSpyMain@reddit
I’m convinced that 99.999% of the “saVe tHe MaNuaLs” crowd either:
And the latter of the 3 is the only thing that matters to car manufacturers because that’s the primary way they make money.
Gubbtratt1@reddit
I used to be part of that crowd until I realised that as I have decided to never buy anything made after 1998 it doesn't really matter what transmission is in new cars, as long as they have diesel engines to keep diesel readily available at a sane price.
EatSleepJeep@reddit
Demand is a market pressure whether it exists on the primary or secondary market. In fact, through its existence on the secondary market it influences the take rate on the primary market by flattening the depreciation curve(or creating an appreciation curve). See 911R.
OldSchoolSpyMain@reddit
I mean, we can’t really use rare 911s to generalize how markets work.
aheartworthbreaking@reddit
My Jag is worth $10k more comparatively because it’s the wagon and not the sedan
EatSleepJeep@reddit
That was more for the appreciating remark.
For most models the depreciation curves for various transmissions depend on several factors, and production is often the dominant factor, but auto is almost steeper than manual for most - and Ferrari is the biggest loser on this curve.
Despite their higher MSRP, automatic 360/430/456/etc are selling cheap compared to their manual counterparts. If you can get one, the conversion pays for itself and some free miles.
OldSchoolSpyMain@reddit
I’m pretty sure that a significant portion of why the values are so different between auto/manual is simply internet hype. The people that are buying and selling these cars aren’t immune to it.
The stats do show, however, that whatever the transmission, these cars aren’t driven.
I know a little about Porsches and people go on and on about how great and useful the lower trims are. How many times have you heard the 911 be declared, “Daily-able Supercar!”. And how sublime the race trims are (“The GT3 RS is telepathic on the track!!”). And yet they all don’t get driven much.
7148675309@reddit
I did buy a GTI manual in 2016, new. Had for nine years - driven 125,000 miles but I need a bigger car and to be honest - I just can’t be bothered anymore in that even if bigger cars had a manual, I wouldn’t buy another one. Bought a new Subaru Outback a few weeks ago - and at some point this summer will get rid of the GTi.
OldSchoolSpyMain@reddit
And that’s OK. That’s how most car enthusiasts feel (and spend). And that’s the enthusiasts not the regular John/Jane buyers.
pdp10@reddit
On one hand, that's a perfectly fair question. On the other hand, that's also what gets parroted by manual skeptics, between protestations about how they personally can't be bothered to shift gears because traffic in their region is so uniquely awful.
The last automatic I purchased was a convertible Mustang in 1996. A surprise deal too good to decline, right after another driver totalled my daily driver. The last new manual I purchased was a Subaru, because I couldn't convince myself to spend more for a stick-shift Audi. One of my dailies was a stick-shift Taurus SHO, back when no slushbox was available.
lifegoeson2702@reddit
& they end up buying a boring ass car or crossover, yet continue to spout shit about them online.
theBdub22@reddit
I don't know of any manual, brown, diesel, wagon Ferraris.
s32@reddit
Used at the dealership
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit (OP)
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/classic/we-cant-stop-looking-one-ferrari-shooting-brake
3/4.
willpc14@reddit
You know, maybe there's a reason no one makes a brown, manual, sports wagon.
pdp10@reddit
Diesels have lost their luster after Dieselgate, anyway. Future generations will wonder how we managed not to notice the smell of diesel in the air in European cities, compared to places with few diesel passenger vehicles like Japan, etc.
MrKuub@reddit
V6 TDI swapped Ferrari FF in Marrone di merda metallic.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
The irony is that nobody wanted a manual Ferrari for many years - the take rate on the last cars it was offered in was absolutely atrocious.
As an example, out of the 6025 Ferrari 612s, only 199 were ordered with a manual.
I believe the take rate for the 599 was even worse, with only 30 manual cars ordered.
Particular_Flower111@reddit
It’s not strictly that no one wanted a manual. Ferrari had optimized its supply chain and manufacturing processes for the F1 box after the F355. Dealers also pushed for the F1 hard because it was a $4-5k option to pad their margin (much like Scuderia shields are now). They also would tell people to order the F1 because it would hold value better as well.
THE_GR8_MIKE@reddit
Hold value better.
Lmaoooooo
dalittle@reddit
so true. If I could afford a manual 599 I would have bought one.
Boba_Fett_is_Senpai@reddit
The 360 kit I saw a video of looked like a work of art, I believe it
Larcya@reddit
People buying anything that isn't a house pretending it can "Hold Value".
My fucking sides. Those clowns should lineup right next to the morons on Facebook marketplace who think anyone is going to pay $7,000 for their 7 year old, clapped out 600CC Super Sport motorcycle.
Shit I remember when I was at the local cycle gears bike meet and some dudes were talking about how thier bikes where going up in value. I had to control myself becuese these little shits came in on a Ninja 400 and a KTM duke 390. AKA babies first motorcycle.
99.9999% of vehicles on the road will not hold thier value and will just keep on going down.
pdp10@reddit
Ironically, anyone in the market probably knows that manual Ferraris and Lamborghinis hold their value much better, compared to those from the same years with robotised or paddle-box options.
This is because the flappy-paddle boxes were a bit of a sales gimmick to the new-car buyer, who could easily be persuaded that F1 cars use such things, so they're better. And it's somewhat down to the used-Ferrari buyer being a different demographic than the new-Ferrari buyer. A bit younger, more likely to be a sports-car enthusiast who can drive stick, less likely to be a pro sports player.
k0fi96@reddit
Not back in then. I got my license 15 years ago I remember the driver Ed instructor telling us to learn stick because we'll be able to get a good deal on a manual because they sell fro cheaper. Nobody cared about manual on a large scale until Internet echo chambers took off.
PRSArchon@reddit
Nobody cares about manuals on a large scale now either, thst is exactly why Ferrari won't produce any. There has always been a small vocal minority of used car buyers thst prefer manuals in sportscars.
ItchyMcHotspot@reddit
And l’d imagine the manual Ferraris aren’t more valuable due to higher demand but rather to their relative scarcity.
PRSArchon@reddit
Exactly, where I live you see the opposite with Porsche 987.2 , most were sold as manual so the PDKs sell for more.
pdp10@reddit
That had stopped being the case by then in 2010, but it's not surprising that you were given past wisdom. It's true that a few years earlier, the loss-leader Nissan Versa manual CAFE-beater was cheaper, but by then, U.S. dealers avoided stocking manuals precisely because they were cheaper and less profit for the dealer than the same transaction on an optioned-out vehicle or SUV with no manual option. Dealers I talked to were also frequently convinced that they could sell an auto to a manual buyer through persuasion, but they could never sell a manual to an auto buyer through persuasion.
Europe, for one, has different driving conditions and a different market, but dealerships aren't a major force determining the stocked fleet there.
By your own admission, you were hearing from different commentators then than now.
caterham09@reddit
I think it's less that nobody wanted them, and more that their automatic gearboxes were the hot new thing.
They marketed the f1 gearbox really well as a high tech, racing inspired transmission. Then you had the added benefit that the shifts were so much faster than a person. So at the time it seemed like a no brainer. Buy the faster car with the futuristic transmission instead of the old school 6 speed.
Of course now we look back and realize that was a mistake. Everything is so fast now, you can get Rav4 that do 0-60 in under 6s. So we've shifted the focus to driver engagement and experience rather than speed. That just wasn't really the case at the time though
stoned-autistic-dude@reddit
Yeah, it was the hot commodity and now everyone could let their wives drive their Ferraris (in the U.S. where women don’t drive stick as often as they do in Europe). At the time, Porsche was just beginning to offer DCT which everyone wanted, the GTR was a DCT, and so on. Everyone was hyped on this new F1 technology that was faster than an automatic and offered the shifting of a manual. So they went all in.
Problem is that once the novelty wore off, some people realized they enjoyed driving stick and so it suddenly started coming back into vogue. And now, it’s a way to flex on people because fewer people drive stick today than did in the 1990s and 2000s when the auto options were slushboxes.
sprottythotty@reddit
You’re comparing cars that came out almost 2 decades ago and ignoring current context. At the time the F1 gearbox was considered the “premium” option and Ferrari buyers wanted the new fancy tech. Stick 360/430s sell for far more in todays market for a reason.
Speedswipe@reddit
To be fair these were both large grand tourers. There were a lot more manual 360s and F430s which are more driving focused cars.
3dmontdant3s@reddit
It was less than 10% on the F430
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
"Fine, then!"
*me who'd only be able to afford a clapped out 308 anyway
iroll20s@reddit
I don't know why people give Ferrari money. They seem like such a consumer hostile company.
PlatesofChips@reddit
“Microsoft: 'We Have A Product For People Who Can't Access The Internet, It's Called Xbox 360'” vibes.
pdp10@reddit
Xbox 360 was when Microsoft was pushing hard for online subscribers and day-one downloadable DLC, ironically, at least by 2011. The last first-class offline experience was the previous generation of consoles I think, or possibly PS3.
smackythefrog@reddit
"Don't you guys have phones?" also comes to mind
humdizzle@reddit
Ferrari dont care. They will still sell. Even porsche and bmw are dropping manuals. New m2cs and m3 comp are auto only. If you want a manual 911 its the T or the GT3, that's it. Corvette dropped them as well.
They are right. Enthusiasts will buy used ones. You can do a manual swap on a 458 and it will be FAR cheaper than buying a 296. Sounds better. More than fast enough.
GolfCoyote@reddit
Ahh, I see they use the same guy who is in charge of their F1 race strategy…
Jedge04@reddit
The “chief marketing and commercial officer” job is to sell what they make, not what may or may not be sold in the future. I’d ignore this article completely.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
Additionally, his take on it was a bit more nuanced than “just buy used,” even though I guess you could boil it down to that.
There’s jokes to be made about a 40k dollar driving course or whatever also being his response but if I was fucking with Ferrari money I’d probably have done it by now.
get_me_ted_striker@reddit
Ferrari has been my obsession since I was a kid. I’m fortunate enough to have a manual Ferrari that is still plenty exciting to drive hard.
I basically pay no attention to any of Ferrari’s modern offerings. I don’t know their names, or their specs or whatever. The performance is so high in modern exotics that it’s is all magazine racing now, and my EV is faster on the street anyway. The tactility is less than it was. Pininfarina did a better job on design. Modern Ferraris just seem like rich-guy showoff cars like any other. Like collecting expensive watches.
At a car meet I will ogle a Mondial and assume the owner is a serious enthusiast. And I will walk by even an SP-whatever and be like “meh”.
Love love love the old ones.
pdp10@reddit
Like many confident companies, Ferrari seems to want fewer core enthusiasts as customers, and more of some other market segments.
c0reM@reddit
Honestly with the crazy powertrains today cars are pushing 1000+ HP. A manual box is an insanely limiting thing for the level of performance and simply doesn’t keep up with the rest of many of these modern super/hypercars.
People say “but the experience” but in reality the experience of a manual box on cars this fast is that you’re constantly holding them back.
A manual box on a car up to 400, 500 HP still makes sense and can be engaging.
But the power today the cars would just waiting for the meatbag in the drivers seat to do its thing…
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit (OP)
The CT5V Blackwing and C7 ZR1 are all fantastic with 650+ horsepower and a manual.
Just have to get the right manual.
Successful_Ad_9707@reddit
I'll reiterate Doug's point, Ferrari is missing out by not offering a low production special edtion gated manual car. There's a market for people who will pay more for a manual whether it's for the driving experience or to speculate on. Porsche has figured it out, it boggles my mind that Lamborghini and Ferrari haven't figured that out yet.
Past-Mousse-4519@reddit
Ferrari literally sold out pretty much any low production car, anyway.
woodsides@reddit
They're doing that in the Icona SP4. Coming out later this year or next year.
Xp-Paul-19@reddit
They haven't ruled it out for the icona models
ItNeverRainsInWNC@reddit
So I had a Ferrari California T. It was a fun car. I just saw a chance to sell it during COVID and came out well. No Ferrari hate here. What’s funny is this. I have a 2025 C8 Z51 and a GT350R. The C8 is only made in an automatic, granted it’s a DCT, but it’s still an automatic. The GT350 and GT350R were only made in manual. If anyone has a knock against the C8 it’s usually the lack of a manual option. No one EVER says the opposite about the GT350. Except when I take it to the Ford dealer to get the oil changed they’ll usually ask me to pull it in the bay because no one there knows how to drive a manual. Happened twice now. They’ll say wow you bought the straight drive, huh? I’ll say ummmm they only made these in straight drives…
AWill33@reddit
I had the same experience at valet with mine. “Actually sir can you just pull it up over there?”. Ferrari has the same mindset Henry Ford used to have but for the opposite reason. We’re the only ones making this. we have a ton of demand. buy it or don’t. They should just make Alpa the actual budget brand with some marketing and some less expensive manual sports cars. Look how well the giulia did just being “Ferrari derived”. Imagine an alpha mustang fighter with a straight 6… I’d show up
Nisiom@reddit
I'm not too surprised. I don't think current Ferraris buyers are too interested in the car's dynamics, or actually driving the things for that matter.
As great as their cars are, the Ferrari of today is closer to a luxury accessory brand. They're simply catering to their customers, which is what every business ultimately does.