I'm with you on this one. Hundreds of years, a couple hundreds countries and is only now that, according to the US aliens are real? Yeah, for sure buddy
Inconceivable that the elite (presidents, billionaires) know & just sit on the info. Inconceivable that middle managers know and their bosses don't.
Source: I've worked for city, county, state, and federal govt.
Did nobody watch the fucking hearing? The entire thing was about how the pentagon has spent 80 years breaking the law. I think the government can think of better ways of "distracting" people.
If anything, the entire situation is r/collapse worthy. We’re basically facing the possibility that the US government has neglected to tell the truth, publicly introduce technology that could save the planet, and have killed people to keep this information privatized. All so a secret group of people can technology that will give them dominion over humanity most likely.
If true, this is extremely important and a definite sign society is fucked.
This. After years of reading on this topic, things heating up since 2017 with disclosure, and all the advances made this year regarding the conversation..I fully believe that this is as real as much as collapse is real.
I dont think we should be so quick to label this "a distraction" (an easy cop-out used to too frequently now a days to dismiss subjects we are uninformed about). There is space to explore both topics. People in the UAP community do not dismiss climate collapse, some actually theorize its the reason disclosure has been streamlined. Perhaps the govts want to employ some sort of classified tech to reverse the damage we have made, or maybe they are aware of an NHI who is not happy with how we are treating the planet. Who knows.
Grusch, the whistleblower who started this, said in a Dutch magazine exactly what you're suggesting: that the government has been withholding tech that could usher us out of the age of fossil fuels and potentially repair our climate.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/14lfe6b/bombshell_new_interview_with_david_grusch_for/
>What is the most important thing this UAP technology can offer humanity?
>
>One of the most scandalous facets of withholding the technology is that we could have been generating clean energy for decades, but continue to deliberately pollute the earth with oil.
>
>Climate change tech is being withheld. This technology has the potential to have a hugely positive impact on the ecosystem. The Department of Energy, which is also part of the secret services, has some explaining to do, because this is a crime against humanity and the earth.
All right, suppose, for argument's sake. that's what actually happened.
What about the aliens? Wouldn't they react to this somehow? Don't they care about their own technology?
tbqh my personal belief is that many of these crash situations are more like "oh, woopsies, silly us, looks like we left something for you, it'd be a shame if you humans figured out how to use our tech to solve your energy issues 👉👈🥺"
followed by 80 years of Humans Try Equitably Distributing Unimaginable Power Challenge: Impossible
Life in the universe may still be rare and worth protecting, explaining all the increased sightings after we figured out nukes. I'd see our pale blue dot's climate is worth preserving, too, except this issue is rapidly deteriorating and we probably can't solve it ourselves (Gulf Stream collapse as early as 2025! Huzzah!)
But hey I'm just some dude on the internet 🤷♂️
I'm a bit late to the party here but wanted to share this. I'm still not sold on UAP being anything other than hot air. Lots of UFO scandals over the years; we've been down this road before. This one is getting more traction than usual but not really anything worth rolling out of bed for. But, I do like to be open minded as I can while staying within the realm of what's most likely true *given* I accept some unlikely premise.
So say I suspend disbelief and accept the govt has interacted with ET somehow. Given all we (or I rather) know about the universe what does that actually entail?
Here is what I know. Space travel is expensive. Not in terms of cash but in energy. Now, let's consider two things: first, if there is a way to travel cheaply, it has to involve exotic physics we don't yet know. That makes such a traveler mind bogglingly advanced. Following from that, it seems stupidly unlikely that such an advanced species could make it all the way here across hundreds or thousands of lightyears only to fail at the last moment and crash. It just makes zero sense, and according to the whistleblower we have multiple craft. So it has happened more than once. How can they be so advanced and yet so failure prone? Our comparatively primitive aircraft have a better survival rate. So that makes zero logical sense.
Similarly, what are the odds we could kill them? Granted, maybe a trade off of cheap interstellar travel is a lack of defenses. I could buy that. So why keep sending craft if we keep downing them? And how is the fact of us being in interstellar conflict as a Type 0 species being hidden? It seems incredibly unlikely.
No, the way I see it there are two likely answers. One is that we're catching probes. This seems most likely to me because it doesn't require the aliens to be so far beyond us that crashing ought to be impossible. And it's something we've even considered doing ourselves, even at our primitive level.
I know Grusch said there were bodies but that could be misinformation or an error on his part. Still, it's one answer. We already have good ideas about which planets in the sky are inhabitable using just our primitive equipment. Someone more advanced may have looked at earth millions of years ago and thought, "boy, I bet there'll be life there" and sent a probe. Perhaps more than one probe, and perhaps more than one civilization. Maybe the galaxy is lousy with probes coming to check out every potentially habitable planet. And maybe there's useful tech within those probes.
That really feels most likely to me because it's within the realm of what we could accomplish. If we're not worried about speed, we could send some Voyager level craft to just about any rock in our local galactic area. So it's even possible the alien tech we've recovered might not be that far ahead of us, or may even be at parity. But Grusch claims it's more advanced, and that's just as realistic to believe.
Either way, this is one answer. The other is that they really are that much more advanced than us but for whatever alien reason, they simply don't care that they're crashing or getting shot down. There's no guarantee an alien intelligence would even be sentient. I know that's probably a hard concept to really grasp, but sentience is not a requirement for intelligence; in our case it behaves like training wheels, but other mechanisms could just as easily take its place.
I make that point because if their psychology, if that term even applies, is truly that much different from ours then it is entirely possible they could build advanced craft and then simply...crash it.
That seems incredibly unlikely to me though. Just based on evolution, any such species would probably die out long before it achieved spaceflight. But other reasons and motivations beyond our understanding may still exist.
What it all boils down to is that the reasons for aliens coming to earth might be so...well, alien, that we could never comprehend them.
However as I said before, the most likely thing is that whatever has arrived is not actual spacecraft, not actual visitors. Just look at us. We have sent hundreds of craft into the void, and only a scant handful ever had people onboard and none ever went anywhere permanently. The situation is likely similar throughout the galaxy: 99% of all craft will be unmanned. It's just too expensive to send organics out that far and frankly there's little point.
My opinion though, to really finally answer yours, is that any species interested in us most likely wouldn't bother with some roundabout solution or way of trying to help us. They'd just do it. While as I said alien psychology may be incompatible with ours, it's still likely any intelligence spacefaring civilization shares at least some background with us, owing to the fact that the laws of the universe are universal. Star Trek is fiction; in real life we've never hesitated to enforce our will upon less developed societies. Why should a powerful ET do any different? If they know about our situation and still haven't done anything about it. the most likely reason is that they just don't actually care.
All right, so they see that human governments are hiding this insanely advanced technology. Wouldn't they react somehow?
Also, interesting that you mentioned increased sightings after the invention of nukes. Carl Jung, in his "Flying Saucers" theorized that it was precisely the nukes and the fear of global annihilation, that prompted our collective subconscious to imagine aliens swooping down and saving us.
I guess I'd say, why would they need to react yet? Clearly the ball's already rolling here. Hypothetically, I'd assume they know that if they revealed themselves too quickly, we'd get hit with particularly bad "ontological shock" (to use Grusch's term). Our global situation is fragile enough already.
["I myself am encouraged that we are going to learn more extremely soon. Not just through bureaucrats, not just through the legal system, but there are other ways in which people get truth out and I am excited for that."](https://youtu.be/wM8NUfBXzYc) - Corbell on NBC
["I know there are people who are going to come forward very soon to give their evidence to support Dave Grusch's allegations." Calls it a "flood"](https://youtu.be/x_9gTDXF9Vc) - Coulhart, who interviewed Grusch and many others
As for Jung I'd just say, that may make sense too, but he did not have access to the military sensor data and witness testimonies we have now.
Jung is insanely overrated. Like kind of a dumbass tbh. Wouldn’t put too much stock in that. I believe in aliens 1000x more than anything Carl Jung said lol
It’s too funny, people are gullible. What a co-inky-dink, a bunch of alien revelations right as the global order is shifting and climate change is surging out of controls
It sounds wild but I believe it. It’s honestly the only thing that makes sense. My co-worker was wondering the other day, “why is the government saying nothing about this heatwave? About the crazy insurance rates? About the fact that we are on the brink of chaos?”
I wholeheartedly believe that they’re fine with billions of us dying because they’re putting all of their energy into their contingency plans, probably with this tech. They will have state-of-the-art bunkers like Mt. Weather up in running in time for when the real stuff starts happening. They probably believe that if we all could stop being “foolish” and we would see that this is the only way. Humanity will live on with them and their entitled offspring. Meanwhile, they could’ve saved us all but where’s the fun in that? You can make so much more money off of suffering.
I'm starting a GoFundMe organization who's sole purpose is building an HQ to hold down in the face of the calamity of environmental disaster for anyone interested.....and search for the politicians and wealthy who will be bunkered down leaving billions to die, and convey to them their bad choice in facilitating this issue :).
Anyone interested in joining please feel free to let me know
What if aliens are here to bring us out of this competitive zero-sum scarcity mindset into post-scarcity? Humanity has quite literally never achieved that before. Our minds, cultural, and economic institutions all must evolve to survive, perhaps they're just giving us a nudge. We still utilize our childish command-and-control capitalist systems to ferry resources and technology to only the privileged few, but that system is clearly unraveling and needs a sustainable replacement that everyone benefits from.
I just want my Fully Automated Luxury Space Communism 😔
The aliens part is definitely a distraction.
The stealing technology from others (whether it's other nations or simple local made-in-the-family-garage innovators) is definitely news worthy.
Exactly - it’s possible all global geopolitical history going back to WWII might need to be rewritten - the motivations for all conflicts and wars are now being called into question.
Yet I can't get anyone to care about this. I keep yelling people to forget about the aliens. The Pentagon can't pass a fucking audit!!! Why don't more people care about that? We're talking billions of taxpayers' dollars. Start there and we will find the bodies.
The government also underestimates their citizens capacity for innovation and invention. Even if the technology hidden doesn't directly produce what we need if everyone had their hands on it then we could find other uses for it. There are plenty of non government scientists out there and they are all very smart.
I tried to post an article about the pentagon not being able to pass an audit since the 1990’s and the corruption that’s going on but the power hungry mods in this sub took it down. If the mods of r/collapse see this comment — see! Other people think corruption is relevant to collapse! Eat a dick!
I agree that it's collapse worthy but for a different reason. The hearing demonstrated once again that our country is ruled by morons who would sooner believe in absurd, unfounded conspiracies based on nothing other than witness testimony from a single unhinged individual. Yes there are other people who gave testimonials of seeing small dark blotches on their displays but there's no reason to jump to extraterrestrial origin over a blurry dot. Mark my words, absolutely no evidence will ever emerge of aliens after all this is said and done. no recovered spacecraft, no alien bodies.
Not even close. This is yet another case of someone heard things but never saw anything himself.
As always, 0 evidence. Just some nonsense to distract people.
I absolutely agree, it shows the selfish nature of those in power on a frankly disgusting level. If it comes out it's real and it's been covered up these people should be held accountable but we we know that won't happen mind you.
It’s like trying to distract your mum from the fact that you smoked some weed by mentioning that you’re the one who burned down the neighbor’s house.
It’s the most sublimely st-pid distraction I have ever encountered, if it is, in fact, a distraction.
>!I couldn’t find a word that properly conveys “without understanding of the effects of one’s actions” without some degree of implicit ableism. I should point out that incredibly bright people are very capable of st-pidity; I don’t see it as directly related to intelligence. Instead, I see it as being more closely related to inattentiveness and grandiose self-assuredness. The English language currently lacks a word that emphasizes _only_ those aspects of “st-pidity”. I propose we use the term “asapience”, meaning “lack of wisdom”.!<
> I should point out that incredibly bright people are very capable of st-pidity; I don’t see it as directly related to intelligence. Instead, I see it as being more closely related to inattentiveness and grandiose self-assuredness. The English language currently lacks a word that emphasizes only those aspects of “st-pidity”. I propose we use the term “asapience”, meaning “lack of wisdom”.
It's called cognitive bias.
Call me undiscerning, but I struggle to see how saying "stupid" in the sense of "imprudent" could suggest ableism of intelligence. This strikes me as comparable to apologizing for saying you were feeling mad (angry) on the basis that it might have offended people with mental disorders
> “_without understanding of the effects of one’s actions_"
I tend to use the word "oblivious" for such people, though to your point it still doesn't quite capture what you're conveying. Asapience is an interesting way to coin it. Also, there is the concept "theory of mind" which refers to the capacity to understand other people by ascribing mental states to them. It seems like these three all speak to different aspects of your original phrase.
Ahh, yeah, “obliviousness” is a moderately serviceable term! Good point.
Agreed; if this were a distraction, it would indicate that the individuals involved hadn’t adequately understood potential public reaction—demonstrating shortcomings in theory of mind (which may be due to group psychology / mob mentality reducing fear of consequences).
Exactly, they’re telling us now *because* everything is about to collapse and they’re spending so much money covering it up, they’re thinking *fuck it* shits about to get crazy anyway
what if who they gets charged for the crimes are only the hulls the reptilian overlords used to disguise among the mighty. they themselves find new hosts and go on to lead the new government
Don't listen to the "it's a distraction" crowd. They all say the government is distracting from something else, and it's always the thing they want to talk about and never anything else. They have no ability for critical thought.
Not to mention the general public is more interested in Hunter Biden and Trump Jr's 50 gallon drum of lube love affair with the entire barbie film crew. Most people are just ignoring this.
Yes, but it's my understanding that telling wrong information under oath is not illegal. They'd need to prove that he willingly lied.
So he would get time if audio of him comes out saying "Oh boy, can't wait to spew my BS in front of Congress and gain that sweet book deal!!", or some other such thing.
But if not, and it turns out he was wrong, he can say that he must've misinterpreted what he saw, and that the 3rd party info about the military bases keeping alien bodies, given to him by a person not under oath, was also wrong.
Oh was that guy senate majority leader chuck Schumer and the senate intelligence committee? Because they directly wrote in their amendment to the NDAA that they made it because they have seen credible evidence and testimony. Section02.4 of the disclosure act of 2023 directly states this.
The guy testifying was under oath, the person that supposedly told him wasn't. The guy testifying is just repeating what he was told, which is hearsay. In science and the legal system hearsay isn't evidence.
And the thing is, calling it a distraction means it’s so we don’t pay attention to the climate thing, but a lot of people aren’t doing that anyway. That’s the whole problem.
They've been doing that for as long as they have existed. Literal presidents have ignored treaties and Supreme Court decisions.
That's not really news.
Spooks being batshit insane with their unlimited funding in defense department research is also not new.
One thing I don't get and it maybe just me (I certainly think it could be possible that aliens who are maybe millions of years ahead of us technologically) but, why would these people keep something like this away from people? If it could get us off fossil fuels, which would cute a lot of issues such as climate change, famines and clean water etc. Why keep it from the world. I mean, I'd be happy sharing it. I'd be fine, so why would I not want others to be? Even, why would I care enough to not want others to benefit? It wouldn't do me any harm if it stopped others suffering. Are people that sick?
If I pop my tinfoil hat on, there would be potential explanations, which also apply to a hypothetical green transition without the UAP stuff. For one there's a lot of geopolitical power balance stuff predicated on oil being king. The dollar being the currency one buys it in is a cornerstone of US hegemony, and already powerful people have a big vested interest in the boat not being rocked. Less scarcity means less resource bottlenecks that are one of the most reliable ways to hold on to power. Once one is in power, you really don't want to lose it, because you are terrified of others doing unto you as you have done unto them. And even if the new power structure is a comparative utopia, you are going to have had to have done some very hard to forgive things while you were playing the power game.
Taking my hat off now. God it'd be lovely if the NHIs and clean energy tech stuff was true and it was just a few bad people, powerless in the face of hyperadvanced beings, that stood between us and salvation. Like a fairy tale, which makes me less able to believe all Grusch's claims. We'll see what happens, whatever this all is, even the most boring option is absolutely wild in its implications.
We don’t need alien tech to get off fossil fuels.
We need to stop being capitalist goons that don’t pay attention to reality, and consequences of our decisions.
That is harder for people to believe/ do, and alien tech seems like a better answer as a distraction from our own ignorance and greed
They announced that the government has UFOs and alien bodies and everyone on social media was completely indifferent because of the planet being on fire and everything else, so if this is supposed to be a distraction tactic, it's not working.
The only reason why aliens existing was interesting is because it was supposed to usher in a new Age of Enlightenment or technological advancements.
If they’ve had them the whole time and this is the reality we ended up with then big fucking deal.
I guess the destruction of our basis of life for money and power is too boring so we have to spice it up with aliens. Who successfully traveled many parsec through interstellar space and shielded their spacecraft against relativistic matter only to *checks notes* crash on atmospheric entry.
This is what keeps me extremely sceptical.
Look at commercial planes, barely ever crash. So how many alien crafts are visiting earth to crash enough for there to be a retrieval program and it just so happens, not one crashed in a remote part of Pakistan, or India or Africa or anywhere where we’d here about it before it got swept up by men in black. What’s worrying is why they are creating this narrative.
Aliens exist, no doubt.. but I struggle to believe that the US government have them and have had them all this time - that’s almost too competent. These whistleblowers probably believe what they’ve been told, but something is not right.
The claim is even more extraordinary than that. Traveling between star systems safely and in reasonable time requires such incredibly advanced technology that an atmospheric entry is... trivial at best.
A fusion drive is the lowest technology that would make manned interstellar travel feasible. A deuterium-tritium fusion drive could arguably reach exhaust velocities of 0.03c at 35-45% conversion to thrust if significantly advanced.
To speed up to 10% of the speed of light and decelerate back down for the arrival at our new star system, you need **at least 800 times your ship's dry mass in fuel**. And 10% of c is still pretty slow considering the huge distances between stars. Including acceleration and deceleration, it would take you at least 60-70 years to reach our closest star system Alpha Centauri.
I have a hard time imagining that someone capable of building the craft to make such a trip will have any issue whatsoever upon entering the unremarkable atmosphere of an unremarkable planet.
I've said similar things...it's fun to think about aliens finally being discovered but when you know even basic astronomy and astrophysics it begs some serious questions that make the whole thing seem pretty silly. Nothing that has mastered FTL travel will have issues around or on this planet, let alone be tracked by something as archaic as our species.
We've mastered atmospheric flight, rocketry and navigation of the solar system. We've managed to land on comets, take selfies in orbit looking down at the planet and landed men on the moon.
Yet the solar system is littered with failed probes and rovers. Is it such a stretch to imagine that shit can go wrong for aliens too?
We absolutely have not mastered navigation of the solar system...we've not even sent representatives of our species beyond our own moon. We can't even get to the next closest planet yet.
Yeah I get what you're saying. As far as I know though it's not being claimed that aliens live or thrive here.
Kinda like how humans visited the moon y'know? It's not like we went live, stay or thrive there. It was politically and scientifically motivated.
It's worth bearing in mind that Grusch in particular hasn't made those claims. Neither did Fravor or Graves during the testimony under oath.
All we know is that the claims are UFOs are real and that non human corpses have been found at the crash sites. That's it.
Saying it's a distraction from climate change is a bit of a leap too in my opinion. Ah well.
It doesn't make much of a material difference to us anyway. Even if aliens landed at the Whitehouse, shook hands with the president and then announced to the world that they're here, we'd still have to go to work on Monday.
You’re wasting your breath. There has been no mentioning of aliens/ETs. The phrasing has strictly been “non-human intelligence”. These craft have mostly been seen going in and out of the oceans. Look at the Pentagon tapes and military personnel accounts.
So we’re to believe that non human intelligence is living, from different dimensions, live under our oceans? Based on what? A few grainy images of balloons and geese? … link me to some credible evidence of these UAPs
> I have a hard time imagining that someone capable of building the craft to make such a trip will have any issue whatsoever upon entering the unremarkable atmosphere of an unremarkable planet.
Great comment and good analysis. Any kind of species capable of interstellar travel wouldn't be crashing on earth multiple times, especially as the trip likely would be 50-60 years.
Maybe some kind of exploratory probe but an actual ship with an alien crew seems far-fetched.
>I have a hard time imagining that someone capable of building the craft to make such a trip will have any issue whatsoever upon entering the unremarkable atmosphere of an unremarkable planet.
In [interview](https://youtu.be/LqrDyK9E4Ng?t=900), Bob Lazar explains that flying at low speeds is unstable, because it depends on gravity waves and gravity field around the Earth is not completely stable and constant.
Reaction mass drives are a suckers game for interstellar travel. [Beamed propulsion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_travel#Beamed_propulsion) is the way to go, and plausibly brings transit from several nearby stars down to a few centuries. Counterintuitively, Sirius A would be the closest star with this drive, only 70ish years away.
Biological or technological life extension is probably achievable before interstellar travel anyway, so a 70-370 year journey to the ten nearest bright stars isn't implausible.
Fuel? This things are allegedly powered by nuclear reactors using a stable isotope of element 115. They are so much more advanced than anything we can think of, several naval reports say they don't even have any kind of exhaust for there propulsion systems.
Because the "alien" is really that weird dude who is always picking up scrap metal on the side of the road and makes a lot of odd noise in that shed behind his ratty old house at the end of the block. After a while people notice the junk starting to pile up on the sides of the road and the shed has been dead quiet for awhile....and what do you know, some big donor friend of a politician suddenly has a company that develops a brand new thing called solar panels or lithium batteries or whatnot. US has been stealing from small fry innovators for a century.
I’m sure they have, I don’t know enough about the origins of technology to add to the subject but given all their resources.. I’d imagine they’ve unearthed all kinds of technology that we don’t know about. Maybe this whole UAP bollocks is to create conditions to use it.
Yap, and aliens would have factions, just like us, if they want us to know. They just fly over the next super bowl game and say hi.
They don't.
So
A) they hate us but can't fight us for whatever reason (resources, too far, not enough left)
B) they are a swarm mind with one single opinion.
C) they are not here
Most likely is c
They are not extraterrestrial, and this wasn't claimed. "Alien" as in alien to humans, a non-human intelligence present on the planet in some manner. Also the "crashes" are technology "transfers" by the "aliens" to us, for what specific purpose is unknown.
1) Probes crash a lot, whether by design, or because a small fraction end in mission failure.
2) If UAP are aliens, they are intentionally hovering around the edge of our visibility. They would be capable of cloaking their presence entirely, but they don’t. However, we also don’t see clear signs of their existence all around us. This implies they are allowing us to see what they want us to see, i.e. an influence campaign.
3) Not all crashes have to be due to poor design, manufacture defects, or being a bad pilot. Some crashes could be the result of hostile actions from human militaries. This definitely seems implausible, and possibly is, since they must be a highly advanced civilization millions of years ahead of us, but tbh there might simply be no way of preventing a hostile agent from downing just a few of your possibly millions of probes over a span of many decades. Just because they are highly advanced doesn’t mean they are capable of defying the laws of physics.
The laws of physics are why they've never been here. If an object hits a speck of dust while traveling at light speed or beyond it will obliterate. Doesn't matter what the material is made of. It simply has no place to go but through. The government lying to us is nothing new.
The laws of physics do not prohibit relativistic interstellar travel at all. Space is virtually a void, but even incredibly pessimistic speeds of 0.01c permit galactic colonization in a blip of cosmic time. Not to mention you can just shield your ship with a few meters if you are sending humans in a generation ship. Alternatively, you can send a shit ton of digital probes on light sails and at least a few will make it. If any aliens are capable of interstellar travel, which we have every reason to assume they are, at least *some* of them do it at ultra-relativistic velocities. In fact, alien civilizations that opt to colonize their galaxies probably do it above 1/3c, as this works in combination with the selection effect very well to help explain the apparent absence of aliens out there and our very existence. This also doesn’t take into account aliens that have a cracked the code on generating artificial gravitational fields. IF they were capable of this, they would not need to worry about collisions since they are not *actually* moving at all, but rather they are expanding and contracting spacetime in a way that displaces them from their origin point. This is by no means guaranteed, but we have no reason to rule it out for a civilization millions to billions of years ahead of us.
>since they must be a highly advanced civilization millions of years ahead of us
hoomans to ants, alien probes would be nano small.
hoomans are planetary. Aliens are more than 4 dimensions. hoomans wouldn't have a real clue as to what aliens do.
Since... we do not violate the speed of light in this universe... without... basically burning a few Jupiters...
Then AT BEST we are talking about techno-panspermia from millions of years ago. Which kind of makes them indigenous? Ish?
They sure do hide good...
*A couple of whistle-blowers announced that the government has ufos and alien bodies but did not provide hard evidence.
Although this did occur under oath so thats a step, but they didnt really bring anything new or concrete to the party.
The committee who took testimony will look into it but the *government* didn't announce anything.
I feel like there's some conflation of "empirical proof" with "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" here
Different purposes, different burdens of proof -- if you want to be more than reasonably sure, witness testimony is out of scope for you, but maybe not everyone
Global live news coverage of alien spacecraft landing somewhere and aliens emerging to meet and greet humans. I'll believe anything with enough evidence...but it's gotta be more than 2nd or 3rd hand testimony and grainy video.
Even after people have been telling stories of sightings and secret government spooky shit happening with the stuff for decades? Probably at least hundreds of thousands of sightings maybe even more over time. Even with sightings going back thousands of years and written about and drawn about by earlier societies? Even when you know there are trillions of galaxies with trillions of planets in each one you still think its easier to believe the governments stance on nothing to see here? Really thats an easier pill to swallow?
I absolutely wish we would discover alien life...especially intelligent alien life. I would say given the incomprehensible vastness of the universe the chance fir there being other life out there is far greater than there not being life elsewhere.
However...that doesn't require the belief that aliens have made it here. Humans are pattern seeking creatures by nature...which also leads to us associating things that simply aren't there. We want so desperately to believe we forgo logic and reasoning...despite quite literally zero evidence beyond stories and individual accounts, grainy video and 2nd hand assertions.
I just need something verifiable...something tangible that can be measured and tested. Something falsifiable and assessed by numerous independent scientific organizations. We should all demand extraordinary evidence for such claims or any claims for that matter.
We all want something tangible. I dont think thats really going to happen. But when you have all these people over time saying this is happening, and they just get more and more credible over time, theres usually fire if theres smoke. And theres, really a lot, of smoke around this.
Maybe. But believing in an all powerful single sky daddy vs believing that other species reside in space are 2 very different ideas. Ones believable and very probable. The other is what people in the past determined the phenomena to be. That aside, they may not even be from space and might have been here all along. But they are most certainly here.
That’s fine, but we want more proof than just some dude saying it’s true. We’ve had plenty of dudes tell us it’s true for decades. One more dude added to the pile isn’t any more convincing then another dude on a street corner telling us Jesus is coming
I'd trust your testimony over that list and anybody within 1 or 2 degrees of separation.
It's creepy and offensive, the crap they are trying to pass off as being something, much less the truth.
I think what he means is that they never claimed they were little green men or humanoid at all afaik. They also never stated that the origin was the far reaches of space. So people basing the formation of their doubts on the established mythology of E.T. human morphology alien species from far distant star systems might be off base. We just don't know given the limited information but the whistleblower was very careful to correct interviewers when they'd say outer space aliens, and would only say non-human pilots of non-human technology. I also think he said at one point he was told they found a huge craft that was ancient. He said it was so huge that they couldn't move it, so they had to build a facility around it. If true that could mean "they" have been here for a very, very long time (for whatever reason).
Agree. Everyone assumes interstellar distances but as far as I can recall no-one on that panel every said that. They never said they were not from our locality. I don't think they even mentioned humanoid morphology. They said non-human lifeforms/biologics, non-human tech thousands of years ahead of anything we can do.
IF true, they could be from another timeframe (time travel from a future or other timeline) or overlapping/other dimension. Or they could have come here once to begin with and it could have been a very long time ago. Wherever and whenever they originated, they could be ancient and have been here "all along", or they could have been in stasis and "woke up" at some point. They could now be from/stationed underwater, under the earth/ice antarctica potentially. From the way the uap behave in the videos and first hand accounts it sounds like they are time travelling to reach those speeds without breaking apart, no sonic boom, no breaking of the water surface with turbulence, etc. I.e. the witness' perspective could be from a different time frame so the uap look like that are moving that fast but in their own frame of reference they aren't. aka time warp.
We just don't have the information. I think the whistleblower said he was told they found one craft that was ancient and that was so big that they couldn't move it. That they had to build a facility around it. If there are things like that in play, they could house a lot of smaller craft or even produce/"factory build" ships/drones/lifeforms. There is also the possibility for genetically engineered biologic forms to pilot the ships, or even biologic computers or parts of ships themselves.
We also might not have the capacity to completely understand what we might have in our possession, what they are and where they came from, what their motivations are, etc. even if we had some of their tech and biologics in our possession. Without more information it's all conjecture and even with that information, the people who supposedly have this stuff in their posesssion might not have all of the answers themselves.
He actually already gave his evident e to the inspector general of the DOD after testifying for over 11 hours. This was before that hearing which is why they really just wanted some stuff on public record.
Yea it’s sure is strange to see all these memes like this congressional hearing was a bunch of nothing, yet it was given by the fucking guy who’s job was to go through these reports and he was upset enough about what he saw that he got the fucking inspector general involved.
People here always act like they want someone to do something brave and come out and point to where there is government corruption.
And here it is. The guy claims he has evidence of the Pentagon, a bunch of UNELECTED FUCKS, getting to dictate what our actual elected officials get to be told despite when they have the clearance for it. Don’t people want to have their actual elected officials in the know about secret shit? Don’t they claim they want less fraud and abuse? Where’s all that fuckin 860 billion ANNUAL budget going?
But no, it’s all fake and a distraction, despite it actually being one of the first places we’ve been seeing BIPARTISAN action bc of how pissed this has made congres.
Making fun of this congressional hearing is an absolute fucking disgrace.
Also, if you have been in the community since at least 2020 you know this has been a long, slow process. It happened to come out now, but it's been simmering and building for years.
Congress is a corrupt joke. This is the same institution that in the name of 'bipartisanship' increases the defense budget every years and NEVER holds the military to count.
The same corrupt institution that eagerly signs away civil rights to keep the peasants in line.
He literally did, he just can't say publicly to us peons because we don't have security clearances. Congress has already been provided evidence of such things. Schumer just recently passed a bill that will force the declassifacation of said documents, look it up. There's also more hearings scheduled in September. This is a developing issue and all we can do is wait for more info to come out.
Same. It seems like the least possible thing necessary. So many people want to believe they forgo actual evidence verified by multiple , independent sources.
You are correct. He's a former intelligence agent. Famously honest, sober, skeptical and transparent people. I'll take his word for it, who needs proof?
He did bring something new to the party. Credibility for one. Nobody with his security clearances, rank, or accomplishments has ever come forward in such a matter of factness. He has been described as beyond reproach by his peers and other very high ranking people. So while not saying the same stuff, they are saying the man is credible and that he should be taken very seriously. So that is new. Also new, the DoD cleared him to admit publicly that we recovered a craft from Italy.
because of claasification laws. they legally cannot bring the hard evidence to the public. thats what this hearing was all about, to move towards declassifying ufo data.
would be nice b/c sadly what is religion? They will just find a way to incorporate the aliens into their Christianity like many many cults do today or they will switch to worshiping the aliens like gods but that all depends on finding alien life and frankly I'm betting the best we do in our lifetimes is find single cell stuff on asteroid or on mars. Like very basic life.
Many will but it'll be another stuck to beat the ones who are currently being indoctrinated.
I don't know, I mean if there is life in a roughly 100 year light year radius of earth they may be aware we exist. We're still scratching the surface of physics at the moment, I'm just hoping that humanity discovers a unified field theory before we destroy ourselves or I die.
I'm going to steal a joke from Milo Edwards, because he's funnier than me.
The really fun thing about the russian space program is that all of their dogs were strays taken off the streets of Moscow. Which means, if you were living in Moscow between 1951-1966 and you lost your dog... There was a non-zero chance they had been shot into space for the glory of communism!
[If you'd like to hear the rest of that bit, it's hilarious, and its the first 5 minutes in his show.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRI7uwTPJtg)
I don't know what to say to this b/c you are coming from the misconception that UFO's are only Intelligent Alien life, when IF it's true, it could literally be a drone with a pigeon in it made by OUR OWN military or some other, b/c believe it or not pigeons can actually drive pretty well.
It could also be one of the billions of other things that fly up into our atmosphere like GARBAGE or balloons, that some pilot can't make sense of b/c he isn't a climatology physicists.
Yeah my simple rebuttal to all this is that I think if you look at the biodiversity here on earth itself, the universe just has to be more interesting than aliens that fly in ships and crash on earth right around the same time that humans are learning to fly in ships, etc. It's sort of like what makes scientology so dumb- that in the 1950s some guy describes aliens that arrived on earth 100 million years ago in aircraft that looked exactly like planes from the 1950s. Or how the Bible has chariots in the sky, etc.
Mormon stuff is peek this. Just like, Oh this guy is LYING, and a Pedophile and pulling from whatever to get money and rape children, and people are believing him!! And now Mormons are literally one of the single richest religions in the US.
Yes. I just have to believe that the universe is more interesting than that. I mean either there is life all over the universe, all throughout time and space, or it is only in existence right here and now. Either possibility is wondrous in its own way. But assuming it's the former, I just have to believe it's more interesting than space ships that crash in Italy in the 1940s. Here on this planet alone we have coral and octopus and fungi and prions and cymothoa exigua (look it up if you want nightmares!) so I'd just find it completely unrealistic that we could even perceive an alien spacecraft and engage with it as such, reverse engineer it, etc.
lol that davinci code aliens stuff is entertaining in it's arrogance. Like you said, why would life be so human brain and culture coded. Not more like that movie: Arrival, and even more incomprehensible to people.
From what we know about space travel, the theroies of aliens actually coming to earth require they have such advanced tech and biology or unlocked space time whatever that they could just watch us, from afar easily. Why even come here?
Maybe there's some timeline in which an Italian partisan doesn't kill Mussolini which somehow (butterfly wings flapping) causes the axis powers to defeat the Soviets and (flap again) the US surrenders causing (flap) nazi scientists to work with American scientists (but not in paperclip) as well as Soviet scientists so that they somehow (flap) figure out space-time travel which had the consequence of introducing alien teenagers all over the galaxy to wine and Terza Posizione and these intergalactic drunken neofascist youth are so damn annoying that their elders had to go back through the time/space portal, crash in North Italy in 1933 then hang out a bit before shapeshifting as Walter Audisio and killing Mussolini for good, creating all the controversy and mystery around his death.
No one on my social media is worried about the planet. I just see meme after meme about the latest trend in entertainment or some bullshit meme about the week vs the weekend.
I feel like it's more so that no one believes anything the government says.. Basically, this is just another bullshit story.
To me, it all smells like a way to warrant sending even more money to the military-industrial complex.....
I think they don't need excuses for that. It's way more likely it's just generations of people starting to believe there's something big in a story that has been repeated with variations multiple times through several investigative agencies for decades so it starts to look like there's something there. There's precedent for this sort of thing- the CIA spent decades of the 20th century scaring itself shitless and believing their own lies.
It's the opposite actually. The MIC has been secretly spending billions on UAP research, without congressional oversight. Those are the claims being investigated by congress. Not "aliens".
Yeah that part actually is true, but I doubt they were really spending that money reverse engineering anything. They always have some scheme to get money, whether it's skimming off the marshall plan to buy elections in Europe or doing drug trafficking to fund assassinations and arm paramilitaries etc. Or just straight up bribery and pocket lining.
Yeah I've been following it. It's a shit show alright. They just want to make it all legitimate I assume. Whatever is going on you know the rest of us are getting screwed somewhere...
I have tried searching outside of any US channels for information about this UFO coverup. r/WorldNews has nothing about it and a search on the BBC website found nothing about it either. r/News is not allowing anyone to post about the subject, at least that's what I am getting from the r/UFO site. On YouTube it's only American News sites reporting on this. Being Canadian, our news typically picks this stuff up from the US but again, I couldn't find anything on YouTube through the Canadian News channels. I say YouTube because that is where I first saw any news about this beyond this current post. Just found it interesting the rest of the world is not picking up on this anywhere.
News and Worldnews are both banning anyone that posts or mentions the story, accusing people of brigading.
[Norway](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/15btjov/serious_prime_time_coverage_on_norwegian_state/)
[india](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/15bl3yr/largest_newspaper_outlet_in_india_covering_the/)
[Spain](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/15ahnzg/mainstream_media_in_spain_is_covering_the_ufo/)
It's getting some international attention.
All the big subs are controlled by homeland security affiliated folks. Just check out who reddit's director of policy is, as well as the previous one. Sh-t, a hearing just lambasted the FBI for cooperating with Ukraine's SBU for censoring social media for their purposes. Do you think the pencil pushers up there won't resort to manipulating big social media websites to justify their jobs? smh
Perfect, see this is what I was looking for. I figured if there is something really there, then the rest of the world is going to start asking questions or at the very least it would bring forth more eyewitness accounts.
I haven't followed the UFO stuff but unless I'm missing something there isn't any proof being displayed or revealed right? It's people saying they know there are UFOs and aliens because OTHER people have told them this...so pretty much like the last 60ish years?
Yeah.
Because at this point even the tin-foiliest of tinfoils knows that WE DO NOT VIOLATE THE SPEED OF LIGHT IN THIS HOUSE.
Such. Transparent. Bullshit.
and, there's also the option that he's committing perjury
​
After all.. if the government sanctions him he can go on Joe Rogan for years and make money off conspiracy bullshit.
Just like the dyess nuke story from alex jones. His alleged 'trusted insider' said they're on the base, but there's jack shit for nukes 'hidden' there.
Insider knowledge is horse shit without evidence, for me.
My theory is that the aliens are the ones who introduced us to popcorn. It is their favorite snack and what they are eating while they sitting back and watching us destroy ourselves.
The people that immediately dismiss the UFO phenomena are people who’ve typically not REALLY looked into it. Is there beyond a shadow of a doubt proof? No. But there is a massive amount of evidence that lends credence.
You’re prob right dawg . . We are alone and humans have it all figured out. . And for some reason there’s been an 80 yr disinfo campaign that includes multiple presidents, former intelligence directors From multiple nations, heads of state, heads of DNI, aaaah fuck it . , ,
i’ve been following this topic for about a decade and watching everything leading up to these hearings, and what’s crazy is literally the average person does not care. if this is a “distraction” it’s pretty poorly planned
Fingers crossed the aliens come to save us, like they may not let us off the planet but if they can fix the environment that would be worthy of enslaving the planet since were about to kill ourselves off anyways
That’s a false dichotomy. There can be discussion of UAP and still talk about collapse. If anything the UAP hearing is a terrible distraction as all MSM have basically ignored it.
Banning _anyone_ who posts _anything_ that could be taken as supporting Grusch’s claims. Indeed, they’re blocking any discussion at all. People have even received bans for asking why other users were getting banned.
They're trying to bury it! That must mean it's real! Let me grab my tinfoil hat real quick.
I'm joking, they probably don't want the circus that comes with discussions about aliens. Honestly can't blame them, those threads bring out the weirdest people. Also they're still reddit mods...
It's the best I can come up with, what other reasoning could they have for not allowing discussions on the topic?
Power hungry mods? Sounds too simplistic, even for Reddit mods. Actually a conspiracy to cover this up? But the hearings were publicized, what's the point in doing that?
The mods are seemingly not interested in justifying their decision so what do you think their motivation is then?
>It's the best I can come up with, what other reasoning could they have for not allowing discussions on the topic?
They're somehow associated with the government, OR [Reddit administration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_Publications) is colluted with the government and is putting pressure on moderators.
We know the moderators don't want to lose control of their communities, as we saw in the aftermath of the Reddit protests.
Also, it's not entirely implausible that government officials are moderating communities. I know it's been the case for some communities related to my country.
aah so it is a coverup, let me go grab that tinfoil hat.
But seriously what's the point, the hearing was broadcast live, the footage is widely available. What's so special about Reddit that the footage isn't an issue but Reddit is?
Tinfoil hat.
Little green men.
Hearsay.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Crackpot.
And on and on and on. You all are some classy folks, aren’t you?
I'm sorry I just can't take this whole debacle seriously, so yes I am absolutely mocking the conspiracists and alien believers.
And I will continue to do so until I'm irrefutably proven wrong. But I won't be because it's not aliens. It's never aliens.
Ah. Roger that, Mx. verysmartperson.
In that case, let’s proceed to flipping the chess board and rolling around in the mud and squealing at each other like uncivilized farm animals. That’s what you want, right?
Are you really sure your unsubstantiated Drake equation parameters are any more valid than _our_ unsubstantiated Drake equation parameters? To, say, six sigma? If not, you are, by scientific standards, jumping the gun.
At least it would be entertaining. Though I have not stooped *that* low, so far I've kept it civil, no name calling or personal attacks. all I've done is poke fun at some of the more insistent people and the situation as a whole. But I'll be honest I did not expect to rustle this many jimmys.
But the Drake equation? Ah I see, I should've worded better, I'm not mocking people who think aliens exist, I'm one of them. Even if it's just statistically speaking it is very unlikely that earth is the only planet capable of sustaining life. Hell, I honestly half expect the oceans on Europa to contain bacterial life should we ever make it there.
I'm questioning the validity of this one dude's claims about aliens on this planet and crashed spaceships, and the sanity of anyone who believes him when all he has is, well, nothing. They're so eager to accept it that they throw all critical thinking out the window. Those are the people I make fun of.
It's not the first, nor probably the last, time some government has given these people a platform and a megaphone because they sound at least somewhat believable. It's just that usually the accompanying show isn't this big.
And you know what, if I'm wrong and it IS aliens I will come back here and apologize for being a dick about it.
But I think we both know that's not going to be necessary.
Ah, I see. I misinterpreted a bit. Sorry about that. Sometimes I react more rashly over text than I do in person.
I know it looks a bit crazy from the outside. A lot of us have been tracking this issue since 2017, or much earlier, and have read or otherwise observed a _huge amount_ of information which wasn’t presented in the hearings. When coupled with this additional information, the topics discussed in the hearings seem a lot more plausible.
If you’re willing to consider that we may actually have good reasons that we _humor_ Grusch’s claims, I’d recommend watching J.J. Abrams’ _The Phenomenon_, and National Geographic’s _UFO: Investigating the Unknown_. They both lay out a great deal of relevant information on public-domain government reports, historical government investigations (_Bluebook, Condon report, AATIP etc._), and, well, a great deal more. None of it is a smoking gun, but, to understand the events of the present, it is imperative that one understands the history behind them.
I should also point out that I only humor Grusch’s claims (and, indeed, the whole “they’re already here” concept) because I don’t believe that faster than light transportation has been completely ruled out. It’s definitely impossible to get something moving faster than light by sheer momentum transfer—no rocket or photon propulsion could ever do so, given the asymptotic nature of relativistic mass. Warp drives like the Alcubierre metric are valid solutions to Einstein’s field equations, and would allow a region of spacetime to _effectively_ “move” faster than light, but, of course, require negative mass. Stabilized wormholes would also work (for places one has gotten the hard way), but these also require negative mass-energy. I fully admit that the odds of a negative mass-energy particle are very, very low, and that there are some serious questions about whether negative mass is a tenable concept in a unified theory of quantum gravitation (iirc, there’s some difficulty re: negative mass when one renormalizes). That said, we don’t yet have a satisfactory, verifiable theory of quantum gravitation, and we also haven’t ruled out the existence of _non-particle_ means of generating regions of negative mass-energy. For instance, [quantum energy teleportation](https://www.quantamagazine.org/physicists-use-quantum-mechanics-to-pull-energy-out-of-nothing-20230222/) has recently been experimentally verified in a quantum-computational context, and some of the relevant researchers think that it _may_ (pending a lot of investigation) be possible to “teleport” energy from the quantum vacuum, potentially depressing the local vacuum energy into (true) negative territory. It seems we’ll have more information on that (via experiments on physically analogous systems) within about 5 years.
It should, of course, be noted that, even if an Alcubierre metric could be realized, there are other _very formidable_ obstacles to realizing superluminal warp capabilities—including the fact that the horizons of the warp bubble might produce Hawking radiation comparable to the Planck temperature (extremely fucking hot). These _might_ be surmountable, though.
At any rate, _if_ superluminal warp technology is possible, and if post-industrial civilizations are common enough that _even one or two within a million lightyears_ persist longer than, say, 10,000 years, it would make sense that one of them developed superluminal transportation. If any _did_ develop superluminal transportation, and if they did it a long time ago, it would seem more bizarre that they _didn’t_ spam superluminal probes than that they did. Thus, **if** superluminal transportation is within the grasp of a mature civilization, and if civilization isn’t vanishingly rare, then we would _expect_ to have visitors of some form.
That’s a lot of “ifs”, I will admit. Maybe it’s less than a 5% chance, maybe less than a 1% chance—but it’s sufficiently within the margin of error that I can’t, with intellectual honesty, conclude that it is impossible with p ≥ 6σ. Thus, I’m willing to entertain the possibility that Grusch is correct.
Anyway, I’ve apologized _before_ being proven wrong. It’s your prerogative, but I feel like it would at least be worth backing off a _little bit_ on the mocking. Personally, I much prefer good-faith intellectual conversation to the incessant squabbles that characterize the internet discourse. It’s a lot more productive. That said, there are some UFO enthusiasts with…some really unsound ideas, so I totally understand where it comes from. I can also sympathize with frustration at things that appear to be pseudoscience—for example, I got 2 years of long COVID, so I have a _very_ short temper when confronted with antivaxxers.
Thanks for taking a moment to explain your position with a bit of nuance. Cheers 🍻
I do like you and your thinking, it aligns very well with my own, your explanation too makes theoretical and mathematical sense so if nothing else I am willing to wait this out and be proven wrong.
But it smells too much of hopium to me. It tickles the same part of my brain that gets tickled when something sounds too good to be true, my scam-detector if you will. Kickstater was full of them at one point: those water from air machines that totally weren't dehumidifiers, solar roads, or any tech-bro tech startup, to the stupidity of some of Musk's ideas like hyperloop.
I've tried in the past to explain or otherwise engage but people aren't generally interested in being proven wrong. Most don't care about facts or logic once they've bought into the hype.
So I made the decision to stop wasting my time and just poke fun at them. Either they'll come to their senses at some point or they won't, either way it's more entertaining for me and requires way less effort.
To conclude: this whole situation has a similar smell. BIG news, BIG hype, BIG promises, but very lacking in actual evidence. Maybe that last is only for now but until such time my expectations are tempered.
Allow me to rephrase.
They think UAP are bunk, and thus don't want to put the effort into maintaining "the circus". If you think /r/news threads are always civil(and not a "circus"), then you weren't there for the trump years. It's not that they don't want to deal with it at all, they think the situation isn't serious enough to deal with such things, when they have before for things they deemed more serious.
It’s not safe to conclude that the r/news mods are “in on a coverup”. I cautiously suspect Grusch’s claims are correct, but, regarding the r/news mods, it’s just as possible that they simply strongly disagree and are abusing power _without_ a larger agenda.
No tinfoil hat required. Even if they’re just being petty and power-tripping, it’s not appropriate behavior or use of power.
Frankly, people have also been getting banned from Reddit (sitewide) for little to no reason recently.
Personally, I’ve been permabanned _sitewide_ 3 times on this account. Two instances were for violating rule 1 (incitement of violence) and one instance was for harassment. The catch is, while I have definitely promoted…vigorous civil disobedience…on occasion, I didn’t do so _in the specific comments for which I was banned_. I also have precisely no idea why I was banned for harassment; it was a respectful 3-message discussion. I reread the harassment clause several times and could find no possible way in which I might be considered to be in violation. In each case, the permaban was lifted upon appeal—so I really and truly didn’t violate any rules on those occasions.
I’ve been using Reddit since 2015 or 2016 (prior account deleted to expunge personal information). I almost never saw such frivolous use of the ban hammer until the last year or so. I’m deeply disappointed that the platform has decided to shoot first and ask questions later.
It's funny, any time I post anything about this topic making fun of it I'm getting downvoted.
Guess people on these subs really want it to be true huh.
In any case, it's entirely possible they're just doing the thing reddit mods love doing I just don't get what got their panties in a bunch about this specific topic. Usually there's at least some reason, even if it's just because someone pressed their buttons wrong.
Bingo. I’ve been permanently banned for just making a goofy comment that had nothing to do with anything, no language or racism or sexism or anything. But permanent ban.
I’ve messages the mods multiple times for an explanation and haven’t gotten anything.
I think they canned a lot of the regular mods and the new ones are just banning anything with no explanation. Its unacceptable.
While the U.S. constitution isn’t generally interpreted as applying to private-sector entities, I feel like we need _some_ legislation establishing limitations on frivolous use of the ban hammer.
These days, social media sites **are** our modern public forum; literal _public forums_ no longer see much use, and so much of our daily conversation happens online that in-person communication is not an _equal_ substitute. Plain and simple, speech on social media has much more _reach_ than speech in an in-person format. Thus, the risks and consequences of heavily limited speech on digital platforms can be assumed to be similar to those seen in cases of limited speed predating the internet.
Thus, while speech isn’t protected from private-sector action, the _need_ for protection from private-sector action appears, at first glance, to he just as great as that addressed by the first amendment. What I’m saying is that it is _just as important_ that speech online be protected, even if it isn’t _presently protected_.
Of course, this raises a lot of potential complications. One of them is the fact that we still have a need to ban _bots_, and to prevent, for instance, genocidal rhetoric. It’s a complex problem but, I think, still a problem which is urgently in need of attention.
Note: _I know this is a U.S.-centric perspective. It does extend outside the U.S. audience, though; while speech may not receive exactly the same protections in, e.g., the E.U., it does receive very similar protections, at least nominally. Sure, Germany bans certain bits of Nazi speech (good idea), and France + the UK hate climate speech, but some degree of speech protections exist in damned near the entire E.U. It is in all our best interests to ensure that these basic freedoms receive some protection from lazy or malicious corporate entities. The E.U. OR the U.S. could both make it happen by way of a unilateral action—just like with the GDPR, corporations may decide to apply the measures across the board in order to avoid overspending on distinct regional variants._
Yeah, I think I got banned several years ago for asking a question about a _different_ batch of serial bans being issued to random Redditors. It’s a mess.
And they haven't. We have heard of whistle-blowers since the 40s. People in the government come out all the time saying we are not alone and not just in the US. It happens all over the world, but media won't cover it, and everyone laughs it off. The most decorated military members and leaders of foreign space programs have spoken out. We need hearings like this to get concrete evidence and not just photos. Look at the tic tac video. The pentagon screamed fake for as long as they could until finally confessing it was real.
He does come off as a bit too enthusiastic. But the other two guys lend the hearings some credibility. I seems so far fetched to keep a lie going for so long and to destroy your whole career over it. And if it's a psy-op it seems particularly ineffectual, who would it before? To make Russia think we have alien tech? Don't they already have spies who would know that?
He’s autistic, has like 150+ IQ, and figured out that aliens are real, had his life threatened by colleagues essentially, and most of the world probably thinks he’s crazy. He’s actually keeping it together pretty well considering.
Oh absolutely. I think he is a credible source, but his demeanor may trip some people up. And you could tell he really didn't want to give away any sensitive military secrets so he kept kind of toeing the line on certain things, which can come off as dishonest.
Agreed, unfortunate. Hoping that we don’t ever get to weigh the importance of it on just him. Fortunately he’s already had people testifying on his behalf before the IG and Gang of 8 too.
I found his testimony to be pretty amazing, he was citing everything with precision and very reassuring to the Representatives that he could provide them with any information they needed.
1000% this. Watching him testify is a great litmus test for how well you're able to parse intelligent people with their shit together vs. bullshitters. He passed with flying colors, and anybody who can't see that simply lacks experience in any discussion of true professional depth. He knew exactly the bounds of what he could say that wouldn't throw him in jail, and knew the exact laws/policies that both outlined that AND what he felt was against the law. He showed up ready to be *grilled* (he wasn't, but also that hearing wasn't the stage upon which he will be grilled... it's behind the scenes, against the mass of the MIC that are absolutely going to be after him).
People who read him as bullshitting only do so because he didn't come in with a body, which is entirely an unrealistic standard.
Participants in 99% of hearings like this don't show up as prepared. Look at how Zuck performed FFS.
Yeah a lot of people took the many times he said something to the effect of "I can't say that/answer that right now but am prepared to go into more detail/share that in a closed hearing" to mean that he has *no info.* That does not mean he doesn't have info. People need to understand that this was never going to be an evidentiary hearing. That's not how whistleblower cases or public congressional hearings work. Things don't get shared with the public right away.
Grusch's answers actually came across as very precise and alluded to the existence of additional information and evidence, but just stuff that he can't share in a public, televised hearing. He has clearly spent a lot of time talking with his lawyer(s) and is mindful of exactly what he can and can't share within the bounds of the law.
It should be evident to those who actually watched the hearing that the goals here are: 1) to allow congress and potentially the public to access the UAP information various agencies know and 2) to set up a central repository for reporting of UAP by military personnel, commercial pilots, and members of the public.
> and figured out that aliens are real
Lol. No, as far as any evidence has shown, all we can tell is he either *thinks* he found out that aliens are real, or has misinterpreted some human technology program.
There's zero evidence so far to suggest it is anything different, and the odds are overwhelmingly against it being "aliens".
Just you wait. There will be no compelling evidence shown.
the UAP Disclosure Act has just passed senate as a part of the larger NDAA defense bill, which historically has passed every single year.
so just YOU wait. congress is moving very quick and effectively to bring hard data out to the public
Well, PowerLifterDiarrhea you’re right up until you get past “no evidence we can tell.” We can’t tell, yes, and that sucks. Wish we could, but us peasants have to wait, and supposedly our representatives should be able to and then inform or show us. Or at least that’s how it’s supposed to work. He has collected evidence though, as was stated in the hearing, in forms of photos, videos, and eye witnesses testimonies AND he has already submitted that evidence to the IC IG who found it “urgent and credible” AND he has briefed the gang of 8 in the Senate who then passed a bill (today I think or yeasterday) demanding that all NHI related material be delivered to Congress.
So either it’s real, or there’s a multitude (not just him) of high level government officials that are running the worlds strangest ruse with no discernible benefit to themselves or anything really, which in and of itself is a big deal. There may very well be a connection between Collapse with a capitol C and NHI, but making them up as an elaborate distraction makes no sense with what we do know and have been shown. Considering, that they could just do nothing instead because most people are blissfully unaware.
The thing I’m skeptical of is that if there’s aliens they would’ve also landed in other countries besides the US and we’d hear about some more incidents or at least hints of them.
Basically claiming that aliens *only* ever landed in one country *and* that info has been successfully suppressed for almost 100 years is unlikely. It’s an extraordinary claim and needs more evidence than one guy hinting at stuff no matter who he is.
The thing I’m most skeptical about is something this big couldn’t be covered up if it’s happening in multiple countries.
Sure maybe you could imagine a big government could cover some stuff up - like if it crashed in Russia or the USA, but stuff would turn up in smaller countries that wouldn’t have the gov. Apparatus to keep it secret.
It has happened is multiple other countries, and countries have governments you know. Releasing something this big will shatter their citizens minds and has a lot of cons to consider. People may not believe it, commit suicide from shock, get violent. It’s not just hey there are aliens woohoo! This is a big deal to humanity.
I thought they alluded to other governments having their own sightings and retrieval attempts. I could be wrong though, I'd have to watch it again to be sure. But I know there have been widely reported videos from other countries. For whatever reason sightings do seem more common here and I am aware that the large majority of blue book reports were unsubstantiated.
But if it is all made up, to what end? It's one thing to be skeptical but there doesn't seem to be much reason behind making the whole thing up, for decades. At this point it seems way more likely that the government *has* been hiding something, given just how long the rumors have persisted and how many 'whistleblowers' have come forward only to be systemically discredited. It's a recognizable pattern.
He’s being represented by the former Inspector General of the Intelligence Community, the current ICIG says his claims are credible and urgent, and Schumers UAP Disclosure Act of 2023 just passed the Senate in the NDAA.
I think it’s more that Congress found out about things that were hidden from them, and they’re fucking pissed.
If this keeps going then sure there might be something. A bunch of senators finding out stuff was hidden from them would definitely make a lot of them very mad.
I'll still be doubtful until actual evidence is provided though. It could easily just be some crazy mad scientists style experiments like the time the government looked into using nuclear explosions to power laser weaponry. Or the MKUltra stuff that messed up the unabomber's head.
actual evidence has been provided per the Nimitz video and David Fravor's testimony. the USS theodore roosevelt was following a group of UAPs for two weeks, theres classified radar data corroborating this. the pentagon however did declassify this video: https://youtu.be/W1kGmUliDNs
its too unbelieveable for most people to accept. but it is real.
Evidence of unknown aircraft sure. Evidence of aliens?
I would like for it to be real because it would literally change everything and if we actually had alien tech it might literally have the magic technology that could save the majority of us.
>The evidence is highly classified
You can literally say you saw anything that was "highly classified". That isn't evidence. That is an allegation of evidence.
This isn't instantly dropping a case. This has been an ongoing "investigation" for almost a century.
This isn’t some drunk nobody claiming that [_thing that makes them look cool_] is highly classified. It’s an intelligence community employee who _led a congressionally-mandated investigation_ on the _exact topic_ of that information. Congress appears to be, in a bipartisan and bicameral manner, taking it seriously. Two ICIGs have also taken it seriously. We know that evidence (of the existence of such a program and vehicles) _has_ been submitted, although is presently classified, so cannot be shared with the public at present.
I completely understand why a skeptical outlook is still warranted—this isn’t incontrovertible proof of alien visitors—but it warrants investigation.
> It’s an intelligence community employee
Who is using hearsay as "evidence". I watched the hearing. I didn't see anything that I haven't seen or heard before on the topic. Being in the intelligence community doesn't somehow stop someone from being vulnerable to all kinds of fallacy or misunderstanding.
This whole thing falls apart when you realize that those congressional parties also hold all the keys they need to get said classified information internally and they don't need a whistleblower to access said information.
By the very nature of classified information, you don't know what they have. You cannot say that it is evidence one way or the other.
I am not closed to the idea that we are alone in the universe, but mathematically speaking it is very unlikely that we have been visited, and I find it far more likely that there are people who have let their minds be taken by this idea, much like we have seen in the past, with zero credible supporting evidence.
But this whole thing, nothing about it is new, everyone is acting like we have some kind of new evidence, but we don't, and this isn't even the first time congress has discussed the issue.
A thought experiment:
Imagine you found a unicorn in your basement. You rush off to tell someone but, when you return, you find that there’s a magical barrier that presents all humans except Worcester PTA members from entering the basement to verify the existence of the unicorn. The barrier also prevents cameras from entering the basement. So, you get some Worcester school district PTA members to head into the basement and verify the existence of a unicorn.
People could accuse you of hearsay, but you still couldn’t show them the unicorn, because there is a magical barrier. For them to expect you to show them the unicorn is absurd.
Same deal, except our “unicorn” (NHI) is a lot more scientifically plausible, and our “magical barrier” is a title 50 security clearance.
Except that isn't what we have here. We have someone claiming that someone else told them they have a unicorn in the basement.
We at current have speculation and a lack of objective evidence. [Russel's teapot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot) comes to mind.
We have more than that.
According to Grusch’s testimony, the ICIG has spoken to individuals with _firsthand_ experience on “the program”, including those who have seen the purported vehicles. The ICIG has not made any motion to deny this claim.
Grusch also claims to have submitted photographic evidence. The ICIG has not made any motion to deny this claim.
You can call this Russel’s teapot, but we’re presently sending a (figurative) space probe to the suspected location of that very teapot—congress appears poised to _actually_ investigate, and members have even stated intent to invoke the [Holman Rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holman_rule) if investigations are obstructed.
This is a _testable_ claim. It’s not in the purview of [Alder’s razor](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Newton%27s_flaming_laser_sword). We’ll have to have a bit of patience, but, if it isn’t _just_ hearsay, we can expect to find out within the next year or two. If we don’t, then I concede that it was very probably hearsay.
I’m not asking you to believe Grusch, or to believe that aliens are here. Instead, I’m asking you to recognize that this is a _testable claim_, and that it’s _possible_ that evidence _has_ been presented—the public would not _presently_ know in _either_ case. I, in return, acknowledge that the epistemological status of whether such evidence exists is _currently indeterminate_, and that it’s possible that such evidence _doesn’t_ exist.
I’m asking you to recognize that this matter is presently unresolved, and not as cut and dry as, say, religion. I’m not asking you to _believe_ anything.
>According to Grusch’s testimony, the ICIG has spoken to individuals with firsthand experience on “the program”
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay)
Absence of a denial is not confirmation of evidence.
Without the evidence to test, there is nothing to test, but if there were there such evidence, it is testable. We have hearsay saying there is evidence, and nothing more.
>I, in return, acknowledge that the epistemological status of whether such evidence exists is currently indeterminate, and that it’s possible that such evidence doesn’t exist.
This is where we have been since the start, which is why I say this is nothing new.
The government investigating itself, when they already have access to all the keys they need to said information is exactly what pings my skeptical radar so hard in this particular case.
It is like Trump talking about the swamp while sitting in the white house.
This is trying to apply credible support to the notion of a deep state conspiracy but it is all based on elaborate speculation and hearsay. We have more credible evidence that the Air Force has a history of manipulating reporters to think there is something to cover up (ironically through leading them on and omitting denials) to cause speculation in the populace to cover up actual military testing projects than we do supporting any of these allegations.
The absence of denial is not admittance to anything, it is just the absence of denial. People are reading into this far too much, and there are far too many people who want there to be more meat on the bones here than what exists in front of us.
I am a firm supporter of the search for extraterrestrial life. Enough so that I spent way too much personal money supporting Seti@home until they stopped.
I do not think that this sensationalist approach is the correct, or scientific way to do anything and I think it does more harm than good.
I do not believe that we are alone. There are far too many galaxies, solar systems, and planets in our universe for me to have any doubts that there is something else out there somewhere.
That said, the probability of finding each other is incredibly daunting and I find it far more likely that this rise in UFO interest has more to do with our own aviation and space travel activities than visitors.
Do I think we should investigate this particular claim? Not really, I think the whole approach seems more like clamoring for relevance than anything substantial, but I DO think we should be investigating (scientifically) the possibilities of life other than on our own little blue planet.
Fair enough.
So, if you think life probably exists elsewhere, I’d assume the key differences between you and I are:
1) That I don’t find the matter of FTL fully settled.
and/or
2) That we have different guesstimates regarding the Drake equations.
Note that, regarding FTL, I don’t imagine it to be possible via Newtonian means of propulsion. It _may_ be possible via manipulation of spacetime either stabilized wormholes or Alcubierre drives, but both of these require negative densities of mass-energy. As yet, we haven’t seen evidence of (true) negative mass-energy, and it seems unlikely that _particles with negative mass_ exist; consequently, it does seem rather unlikely, but I’m not satisfied that we have adequately explored consequences of [quantum energy teleportation](https://www.quantamagazine.org/physicists-use-quantum-mechanics-to-pull-energy-out-of-nothing-20230222/); granted, quantum energy teleportation is a very recent discovery, so it’s not as though we’ve been slacking on the matter.
I should also note that, even with negative mass-energy, there are some nontrivial issues with, for instance, extremely lethal Unruh/Hawking radiation from the horizons of an Alcubierre warp bubble. I’m not at all sure they are surmountable obstacles.
At the moment, I’m agnostic on the matter, but find it worth investigating, given the uncertainty on FTL (technically not literal FTL), the Drake equation and whether advanced civilization would emit considerable radio chatter.
Anyway, sorry for getting a bit miffed earlier. Cheers 🍻
No worries friend! Text is bad at tone.
I am also not entirely convinced that FTL is settled, and I think that we have common ground in that we are both open to the possibility.
I just find it highly unlikely that any civilization capable of such a feat would be much interested in us at this stage. And even if they were, the chances that they would find us are still extremely minimal at this point.
Even our own broadcasts out into the black are really very young.
The odds are in favor that the phenomena that we are dealing with in this instance are a product of humanity rather than something else.
Cheers!
I did watch the hearing. Congress doesn't get auto-access to things. Members are not even required to have a security clearance.
[United\_States\_Intelligence\_Community\_Oversight](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Intelligence_Community_Oversight)
Some members are going to get "denied access" and others are already going to know. It's a red herring argument that isn't supporting anything.
People with the highest security clearance are being denied access to locations where uap are supposedly being held. This is not normal. They ask for files on extraterrestrials and are being denied because its classified. I'm curious to why you are so against the idea this could be true. Yes we need evidence. This is the first step though. If all of this is true this community should be outraged the technology that could provide the world with forever lasting clean energy is being held.
>This is not normal.
It actually is normal. Holding a clearance does not mean you have a free pass to go anywhere. It means you are holding a clearance to perform a specific duty and have information that pertains to that duty.
This compartmentalization is intentional as a security measure.
They don't have a need to know what is in said SCIF even if they work on the project. They don't have an appropriate clearance in relation to said project. They are not part of the project.
These are the most obvious.
A SCIF (pronounced “skiff”) is a sensitive compartmented information facility. It's an ultra-secure room where officials and government contractors take extraordinary precautions to review highly classified information.
A SCIF room It's not what you think it is. You are pulling stuff out your ass. You make it sound like this room is where they store information it's literally a empty room where David grusch can legally talk about his claims without worrying about being thrown in jail. They won't let him do that I wonder why?
That isn't necessarily the case. They would have to prove he was intentionally lying. That is a hard, hard case to make in any event.
This would hardly be the first case of someone lying under oath.
Exactly. The washington post (which has major ties to the federal government) has been hardcore downplaying and making fun of this hearing. Even if the witnesses were all lying, this was an actual congressional hearing and deserves more unbiased reporting than what we have seen. There have been 10x as many articles on BarbenHeimer as the UAPs.
It was literally his job to learn from the reporting of others and collect that information for it to be presented. He was one of the people who wrote the Presidential briefings. He’s legit.
Clearly the intelligence apparatus of Congress believes him if the current Senate Majority Leader is proposing legislation directly based off of his claims.
yes that's the reasoning I've heard about a dozen times now.
I'm mostly surprised at the willingness of people to just believe his unverifiable claims on not a whole lot more than the fact that he's worked in the field and was given a podium and an audience by the US government.
You’re confused on why Congress, the government, was willing to listen to the testimony of a government employee they hired to do exactly what he was hired to do after he reported it the inspector general?
Yea that makes zero sense.
No I'm pretty sure I'm confused at the willingness of people to throw all critical thinking out the window and celebrate the arrival of aliens based on this one dude's unsubstantiated claims just because he worked in a relevant field.
So far the only reason the government is giving him a platform and a megaphone is because they believe they've been kept in the dark about something.
But mark my words: it's not aliens.
It’s not one dude bro. There’s literally thousands of claims out there from lots of sources, lots of countries that speak different languages. How could they all be reporting similar experiences and why would they if it was all a con?
bah research, you know how hard it is to find quality material and factcheck that stuff? There's so much junk around the topic and too many lunatics. So no I'm not going to claim to have quality sources for information.
All the more reason to be skeptical when someone says they do. Because the track record isn't great. This has gotten the attention from the US government at least so the show is bound to be more interesting, but it has not yet elevated my expectations much beyond seeing him as an attention seeker.
Btw I speak 3 languages and English is my second, not that that's relevant.
The obvious next step is to talk to the people who allegedly gave him the information. He said he was going to provide a list with 40 names. Let's see what they say. Sooner or later we should end up with a real understanding of what all of this is about, and I'm fully expecting that it will be a letdown.
Sure, but skepticism should not _obstruct attempts to investigate_.
Skeptical people suspect [claim] is incorrect, but will at least humor investigation and analysis of [claim]. Denialists, meanwhile, suspect [claim] is incorrect and want to curtail any discussion or investigation.
There’s a reason we use the term “climate deniers” rather than “climate skeptics”.
Funny how the media is downplaying Gruch's testimony as only being second hand knowledge, however when it came to the second-hand hearsay of Iraq's WMD program they were more than happy to beat the drums for war...
Oh? When were the Congressional hearings about the gulf stream collapse?
I am googling and not finding it. Plenty of horseshit about UFOs and aliens—that all seem mysteriously drawn only to the US and nowhere else of the other 95% of the planet.
It's not a false dichotomy if one issue gets a surfeit of actual attention by leaders, the people in the first best position to take action, and the other doesn't. The disparity is an actual unambiguous dichotomy.
They said that the navy has recorded UAP in every theater of operation in the world, so no not just 95% US. The incidents the two were witnesses to happened in the gulf of mexico and off the coast of virginia.
If the dudes trying to draw an equivalence between people testifying to something in a hearing and bullshit wartime propaganda i feel like it does matter to the equivalence if one of them is liable for perjury and the other isnt.
1) gulf stream collapse means massive crop failure worldwide and large parts of the earth will become seasonally if not entirely uninhabitable. An event that is about to kick the living shit out of all humanity gets less Congressional concern and less general interest than rumors about ETs that don't have any impact, even if true, on the scale of gulf stream collapse.
2) Do you know what hearsay is? And why it's unreliable in court? How about distractions?
Maybe you can't do anything about gulf stream collapse so instead you focus on things you can change like adopting the really important distinction between ufos and idgafs?
You are in r/collapse, preachin to the choir. No need to get so condescending. Everyone here is sympathetic to the gulf stream collapse issue, but that doesnt mean you ought to misrepresent other topics. UAPS are a global phenomenon as well.
> UAPS are a global phenomenon as well.
And? Let's assume it's true. So what?
You want there to be aliens? Okay there's aliens. So what? What changes?
We gonna throw another annual fuck tonne of money at the defense industry so we can have a space force?
That's where this very clear road leads isn't it. We need to mortgage our future on more defense industry bullshit. Because aliens.
Sing that.
>So what?
Well it changes the argumentnfrom one of classic Ignorant American Exceptionalism to a global unifying phenomenon, maybe that can be ridden to solidarity and intersectionality for the gulf stream collapse abroad?
>What changes?
If aliens are real, and have been here, and we have recovered their tech, and are attempting to reverse engineer it? What changes? A fuck ton dude. Im sorry if thats frustrating to hear.
We gonna throw another annual fuck tonne of money at the defense industry so we can have a space force?
Well a lot of the hearing had to do with misappropriation of funds going to private companies through the defense industry so i suspect that the opposite and a redirection of funding to other agencies is actually the potential result.
If you want my actual opinion: Frankly, if the end result of this is that our species is no longer dependent on earth to survive then thats a win. We can fix the earth or leave it behind, but i honestly think its foolish to not make steps towards both ends. And if aliens are the stupid thing that intersects people from all walks of life, then aliens it is as far as being a catlyst for global change. Dont fight it, ride it.
It's an argument that stems from ignorance. UFOs are getting seen everywhere, it's just that Americans tend to hear about American cases almost exclusively. Very few people (I can think of Jacques Vallée) are translating foreign cases into English to make them available to the American public.
I live in France and we have one of the most extensive databases of cases in the world. A unit from the French space agency has been investigating reports of UFOs seen on French soil since 1977 and some of its members (which included the former director of the French space agency, three air force generals and experts) published a report about the phenomenon in 1999, the COMETA Report, which concluded with near certainty that UFOs are physical objects with capabilities that are so impressive that the extraterrestrial hypothesis appears to be the most likely and credible explanation.
He presented eleven and a half hours of testimony and evidence to classified sessions of the gang of 8. They found his claims credible, Schumer legislation is a direct result of that.
Great. I'm happy for you. I'm sure all the "classified evidence" will have an important impact on our lives and humanity as a whole. Since this is super real and serious (They testified under oath after all!).
No proof of anything was shown because its a hearing based on the evidence that was submitted in the SCIF. The evidence was already presented, this is their testimony under oath, in a public setting for the people to see, as to what was presented in the SCIF.
Haven't Republicans testified under oath dozens of times and it turned out...they were lying? You want people to start listening, however there is no hard proof (other than, under oath testimony which isn't always credible). Know where there is hard proof? The climate that is starting to demonstrate why scientists were correct many many years ago. Really wish there were aliens though. I'd ask to go with them since they figured out space travel and likely how to cooperate with each other. Humans will never figure it out.
Its not an either/or scenario. Use the momentum of the moment to create solidarity with others on fixing the ckimate. Theres a way to intersect extraterrestrial life with fixing our own planet.
As far as testimony, if you arent gonna believe anyones testimony then theres nothing some rando on the internet is going to say to convince you are atkeast attempting to be truthful. However if you just want something to look at with your own eyes then here you go:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_UFO_videos
I don't disbelieve. Someone has pointed out however there are more stories about this emerging from other countries, which is more of what I wanted confirmation from. If it's real (and I am not saying it isn't), then I would hope the rest of the world would jump on this and start to report, not just the US. Thanks for the link.
Exactly, keep seeing Qanon nuts using similar reasoning and bleating on about Project Blue Beam. If this turns out to be real it'd probably be the biggest scientific discovery ever.
Every moron on the internet thinks everything is a sensationalized conspiracy now so they feel like big brain deep thinkers even though they’re usually just getting these dog shit theories from some other idiot off youtube or 4chan.
If you want to call UAP sightings are up exponentially and getting harder and harder for the government to suppress so this is there way of "soft disclosure" with more to come in the next few months 5d chess, then sure.
Two reasons it’s unlikely to be a secret government program:
1. The observed flight characteristics of these things are way, WAY beyond what we can do, both from a propulsion standpoint and a materials science standpoint. We’re talking thousands of Gs. We don’t have anything that can go that fast, and if we did it would disintegrate at those speeds.
2. There’s no evidence to support it. There have been many whistleblowers over the years, as well as deathbed confessions. None have claimed a secret program. Many have claimed secret UAP programs.
Well it’s more likely it’s just a government program. People thought the b-52 stealth bomber was alien space craft until it was disclosed that it was a United States advanced aircraft.
You said “ the observed flight characteristics of these things are way, way beyond what we can do.” So you either think it’s aliens or Atlanteans both improbable.
Why do you people always bring up fallacy’s when you’re wrong. Doesn’t make you any smarter. It’s also not a fallacy if it’s the truth just because I used either and or doesn’t make it a fallacy. Go back and read your previous comments. You say it’s not a government program because the technology “seen” was too advanced for humans. So unless you’re gonna tell me what you actually think it is don’t start shouting fallacy. Also what you did there was a red herring fallacy so…
I don’t have to tell you shit for you to commit fallacies. You claimed I could only believe one of two things, one of which was ridiculous. They were fallacies.
I do I’ve taken a lot of classes in college that go over them. Red herring fallacy: an attempt to redirect a conversation away from the original topic. There you learned something new.
This. Also Jack Kirby even admitted in a presser recently that they have no idea what these things are, and have been obstructing pilot training.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/152dkxq/white_house_national_security_council_coordinator/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1
Buddy every website and news outlet you find is media, and while yes they are trying to make a buck to keep the lights on it doesn’t discount them as non credible.
Refusing to pay any attention at all to the media would leave a person vastly underinformed. People have to learn how to pay attention to the media with a critical eye. The media conveys real events and talks about real issues. It tells you what other people are thinking about. It tells you what its sources want you to be aware of or thinking about. And what's notably lacking from coverage, or poorly sourced, can tell you what certain people and groups *don't* want on the public mind.
It's so tedious to have to have these conversations again and again. There are plenty of great journalists and editors working for the MSM and they do much better investigative work than the bloggers these people trust instead. TV is trash, but there are great newspapers around and they're still the best way to stay informed if you, as you say, read them critically to identify bias, fallacies and propaganda.
The idea that the MSM is a uniform mass of incompetent liars is itself a campaign of disinformation that's largely orchestrated by the far right to convince its members to ignore information that tends to be inconvenient.
Nobody said MSM is a uniform mass of incompetent liars.
They aren't incompetent, they're very good at what they do.
We wouldn't be living on a dying planet if the media performed its job appropriately.
The good journalists you speak of are outliers. The majority are not.
the government is distracting us with knowledge that they have themselves been engaging in the most extensive coverup and disinformation campaign of all time? seems unlikely to me.
If it really was the most extensive coverup and disinformation campaign of all time, they would not be walking around in broad daylight and discussing it on the floor of congress. For real people.
The OSS/CIA were up to some interesting shit in Italy when/where they claim to have recovered this craft. They are still up to it today. But instead we are shadow boxing because generations later some of these nerds start to believe their own psyops. Either Grusch believes what he says or he's lying- either way if the government agencies that supposedly cover this stuff up were bothered by his disclosure at all, he'd have been found suicided with two shots to the back of his head by now.
the government is not omnipotent 🤷♀️ something can always slip through the cracks. grusch himself has said that he went the public route in part for his own safety. it would look pretty fucking bad if anything happened to him at this point.
Yes and it's informative to look at what actually has happened when things have gotten through in the past. Look at the Church and Rockefeller Committees for example. The investigations are almost always run by the people who are being investigated themselves, allies shut them down, famous whistleblowers turn out to be acting in limited hangouts etc.
If Grusch were actually leaking something that the agencies he's worked for do not want to be leaked, then it would've been shut down long ago. Being the absolutely most credulous I could possibly be, he is leaking something in a forum in which intelligence agencies are complicit in some sort of limited hangout. But that requires some smooth brained credulity since he has no proof of his actual claims and the things he's saying have been repeated in some form or another since the late 1940s when the CIA first started investigating UFOs, especially under the advice and guidance of W Bedell Smith who had been involved in all this from the beginning and thought it was good to pursue the claims as a potential psy op. The most likely scenario is that this dude is just believing previous generations' rumors and lies. There is precendence for this in intelligence communities as well, the most famous that I can think of is that when they overthrew Arbenz in Guatemala, they made a cover story about exiles and dissidents leading the regime change. Then a few years later, they believed their own cover story and tried to replicate that strategy (which was bogus) to overthrow Castro in the Bay of Pigs, one of the many hilarious reasons it failed. Spooks spook themselves all the time- half of the US's Cold War adventures were because of shit like this, how many people do you think believed Iraq had WMDs, etc?
but my point is the government has no incentive to make up a conspiracy theory that incriminates them in the first place. there is no discernible motivation for them to make up stories about aliens and they themselves covering it up for 80 years.
Alright, I reread your post because it's baffling to me that you could've interpreted what I said in that way, and I'm wondering if you (or the other downvoters) understand the history of this stuff?
In the earliest years of the CIA (around the time that this ship was supposedly discovered by the OSS which is a CIA precursor), there were reports from pilots about UFOs. That is, stuff in the sky that they can't identify. This has been happening since people took to the skies- probably before then even but certainly on record since.
Very early on, in the late 40s, early 50s, the CIA started to investigate this phenomenon which makes sense. What tech did the Soviets have? They knew literally nothing about the Soviets at that time. So people are seeing weird things in the sky, the CIA is already paranoid that the Soviets can do all sorts of stuff- they think they can do mind control, they think they can do astral projection, all sorts of kooky things. So they want to investigate UFOs, not because they are worried about aliens but because they are curious what the fuck is up in the skies. W Bedell Smith himself, one of the earliest CIA directors, was a proponent for these investigations, and for two reasons. The first was the one I stated- what are these unidentified objects in the sky? The second was that he wanted to investigate the potential use of these phenomenon as psyops. Now this is matter of record. This is how these investigations started, and yes, like everything else the CIA did at the time, it was secret, covert, and the funding for these proejcts (like all their projects) came mostly from covert or illegal origins. That in itself, just the funding sources for various CIA projects, would necessitate coverups later on, even if there's no real story there to hide.
Now in the decades that followed, there were various changing bureaucracies in both the US and the UK that investigated these phenomenon. You can read all about the history of these organizations, it's all well documented. The most recent in our modern time is UAPTF and AARO, I assume anyone following this stuff knows about it.
Meanwhile there have likewise been loads of scandals and rumors- like Roswell or the mothman or the alien autopsy or whatever. From time to time, it turns out the documents are actually faked, other times it turns out that there was some cover up or another. Sometimes they even seem to be deliberately fucking with people's minds- look into stuff like the Paul Bennewitz case. And all of this is taking place in the context of the intelligence orgs doing operations like Gladio, MK Ultra and Naomi, Chaos, Phoenix and approving (but not carrying out) Northwoods, etc- read about this stuff if you don't already know, seriously. My fave is their psyop in the Phillippines in which they pretended that vampires exist to scare the villagers they were fighting- they actually blared sounds in loud speakers and drained the blood from killed soldiers to create experiences that locals could have that would make them believe their folklore was real. The funding for a lot of CIA projects over the years came from the heroin trade, skimmed from stuff like the Marshall Plan, taken from union dues in the US, etc. All of this requires coverup when it comes out.
Yes there have been hearings and investigations into all of this over the years, it always involves limited hangouts and allies in the government that shut it down or funnel the attention somewhere else. I have given you the most famous examples (Church and Rockefeller Commissions and Iran Contra) but I could name a ton more. Sometimes it involves real whistleblowers. Sometimes the whistleblowers themselves are spooks acting in the interest of a particular faction (Elsberg, Snowden being the most famous).
So back to the current moment- you get decades of stories and then evidence of actual coverups (not because there are aliens but because these activities are all illegal, and then generations later you get some spook that reads stories that have been circulating for decades, do you think it's more likely he's stumbled upon evidence that there are actual aliens or that he simply stumbled upon evidence of a past psyop that he has either assumed is real or is lying to say he thinks it's real for whatever reason.
If there's no real hard evidence, I highly recommend people be extremely skeptical, and it's really baffling to me that anyone who knows anything about any of this would be so credulous without it. I can't tell you exactly what's going on. My guess is that this guy fell for his org's own bullshit or is just trying to build up his own clout, but it could be a part of some bigger active psyop. What I know for sure is that there's no way the universe is so boring that aliens would happen to crash in Italy, in a craft that is perceptible to us as such, right at the time that humans happen to also be flying for the first time, and the US government found this and have been reverse engineering it since then, trust me bro an intelligence agent (famously honest folk) has seen the proof he just can't show it to you.
i mean i see what you’re saying, what i don’t understand is what motivation could the government possibly have to use recovering alien space craft, bodies, etc as a coverup for anything. what could the possible advantage of that be? i feel like the potential for that information getting out would raise far more questions than anything else they could possibly be doing. that’s the entire premise that i find hard to believe.
i think it’s also worth pointing out that grusch states that he accounted for this possibility and did everything he could to verify that this wasn’t a psyop or cover for something else. and don’t get me wrong, im not taking everything he says as gospel. i’m waiting for hard evidence like everyone else. i’m just genuinely trying to understand here.
I guess I don't see how you could possibly get what I'm saying and then ask how the government is using this as a cover up since I didn't say that. But I've explained it in as much detail as I possibly can, not sure what else to say. I guess all I can do is say that from my side, it looks like you are thinking "X group said Y happened" or "X group made Y story" and nothing is that simple when you are talking about 8 decades of intelligence operations.
As for Grusch, as I stated in the beginning, either he's knowingly lying or he believes what he says. Neither of those possibilities means he's telling the truth.
My dude it's not a conspiracy and I did not say it was. It's a person that believes this. Did you read my post? People are falling for their own bullshit. As has happened before. People can downvote me here but I'm telling you this has happened again and again over the last 80 years.
Lol this is a terrible take. It barely made mainstream news. Most people don't care, and, other media outlets are denying its seriousness and implications.
Did you even watch the hearing? Billions and trillions of dollars are being funneled through overcharging contractors to work on reverse engineering craft that are not of human origin. These are craft we have satellite, telemetry, video, and photographic evidence of. What some of the witnesses are testifying to is that this technology *could* potentially transform our civilization in terms of energy usage and storage.
And before anyone mentions the "lack of evidence", just know that the 14 year senior level intelligence analyst David Grusch has an entire list of officials, locations, and departments/agencies that do have the actual first hand, real, palpable, evidence he spoke of.
I don't care what Grusch says he has. He hasn't shown any conclusive evidence like he said he would. He's just floating old stuff that I've seen in 90ties. Tic tac video is probably the newest, and that's from 2004 and doesn't prove anything.
Then you don't care to actually look at the facts, understand how classified intel and information works, nor do you care to keep up to date because you'd realize the GIMBAL video was from 2014/2015.
Again - Grusch has said that he has NOTHING. He has admitted that. What he actually said was that he dealt with and spoke with multiple first hand individuals who DID see something, did WORK on something, and the like. Please actually read what's going on.
There is no new hard evidence revealed that wasn't public knowledge before Grusch. No new witnesses except Grusch who is second or third hand witness.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We didn't get any, not even ordinary. Unless we do, I'm assuming it's all just a psyop to make Russia and China believe that US army has an ace up its sleeve. Grusch claims he's an whistleblower, yet he keeps saying that he can't really say anything as it's classified. It's a joke.
I predict that nothing will come out of it.
The idea that the government could cover up something of this magnitude is hilarious to me. We're still human beings at the end of the day. If the military knew it could potentially reverse engineer alien tech they would enlist every god damn scientist and engineer under the sun to work around the clock. Who wouldn't be interested in being part of such a project? Nothing adds up.
>Did you even watch the hearing? Billions and trillions of dollars are being funneled through overcharging contractors to work on reverse engineering craft that are not of human origin. These are craft we have satellite, telemetry, video, and photographic evidence of. What some of the witnesses are testifying to is that this technology could potentially transform our civilization in terms of energy usage and storage.
That's not at all what I take away from all the summaries I read. Currently, it's Grusch' word vs. that of the Pentagon... In fact, the latter actively denies the claims.
Grusch's testimony was approved by the DoD in advance. This is an intentional process to potentially bring new tech out..... or to make things much worse for us.
I think the sad part, is we have realized that despite all the technology we could get, our lives are going to get worse, corporations are going to find ways to use all that to extract more money from us, making us work even more.
The ship could have a unlimited power source, a machine that would produce unlimited food from thin air, an instruction set of how to make more of those machines from easily available stuff, and somehow someway we would end up worse.
I saw a couple of UFOs, with no mistaken identification. They are real and the ain't us.
The worrying part in all this is that they seem to be showing up more frequently as the world's situation is more dire than ever before.
And honestly if the government wants us to iqnore it, I think that it's probably better we don't.
As the world burns they and the wealthy politicians, corporate heads, etc all have nice underground and under mountain bases to ride out the apocalypse.
It is crazy that we as a society don't stop all their bullshit right now and take what our taxes pay for.
Not gonna lie these memes seem super suspicious as I seen all of them appear over night and despite everyone in the comments disagreeing, the post gets upvoted so fast. The uap stuff should be taken seriously, we aren’t infants who can’t focus on more than one thing.
It's a sign of low intelligence not being able to grasp a multitude of occurrences at once. This is like saying weather reporting is a " distraction " from inflation. Then again this sub has evolved from actual discussions of societal collapse based on multitude of events into a death cult focused on weather the industrial evolution to the point of being banned showing evidence otherwise.
I get downvoted to oblivion pointing out something melted the mile thick glaciers encompassing the northern hemisphere 10,000 years ago while humans had zero industry , far less population, and we survived. But that goes against the echo chamber so we can have conversations anymore.
If it were real, many would be able to process information driven through multiple pipelines, all at once.
How old are you? I’m not asking this question in a derogatory manner. I’m asking this question in order to establish perspective on both sides.
Do you understand that people over the age of 50, 60, 70, having been hearing & reading about this shit for their entire lives? And still, not one single iota of proof or a FORMAL statement confirming that these claims have truth to them or that these non human biologics are here on earth.
Not everyone who is older, are afraid of aliens. I for one, would be quite pleased if they exist, AND do a drive-by through my ‘hood.
All of the above stated, here’s the thing:
These crafts never, ever show up or more precisely, fly by or crash by my house or yours, do they?
Have you seen one?
Your neighbors, your relatives, your friends?
No?
Why is that?
And if we saw something we didn’t recognize, how would we know it’s an alien craft?
It’s not that skeptics like myself don’t want aliens to exist. It’s that a lot of people (government) are full of shit regarding so many things, that it’s difficult to take their word for it when they congregate on the House Floor on a Wednesday, and then the following day, a former United States President, who happens to be a lunatic Republican, is hit with more obstruction charges, which is an unprecedented event, all on its own, & has far more bearing & consequence on our daily lives, as he is running for president AGAIN, & the possibility of him actually winning could very well upend democracy as we know it.
There is a clear & present danger developing right under all of our noses, and it’s happening in real time. And I believe that’s it’s completely fair to assume that we will be constantly fighting off authoritarianism/fascism for at least the next 20-30+ years.
So yeah. People are looking at this Hearing & wondering why the heck it even took place, as NOTHING real or concrete was said or revealed, and more importantly, nothing was proven.
https://www.youtube.com/live/3NG28Br6kaA?feature=share
https://youtube.com/@CitizenHearing
I am disappointed at how successful the psyop, disinfo campaign of the CIA and media has been on the american people steering attention towards irrelevant, sensualized media while trivializing what should matter across the board. The lack of critical thinking on the subject irks me as people from generals to farmers have been commenting about this for 100 years globally. Either a phenomenon is affecting the human psyche across space-time-geography or there is something of extreme significance being ignored. both are concerning deserving attention.
At this point i'm not concerned convincing anyone because this is the endgame, my worry is the response of having reality seized snd crafted in the form of media science fiction while deliberately robbing the planet of a better future. Seeing how nobody thinks a dying biosphere is something to cause mass disruption over i am rather somber knowing the American public won't comprehend the totality of being brainwashed into feeble mindedness , complacency and subservience. Historically revolutions have started over far less significant occurrences yet i expect americans to shrug learning the energy crisis was manufactured, we've been sharing this planet with other benefactors for eons, and desire work on monday to talk about football.
Social media has been the greatest control mechanism which majority of people are content being mentally enthralled. It's more entertaining watching Instagram than actually researching topics to find the desired " proof "
I posted about Grusch on this sub less than two weeks ago and the mods took it down. You do NOT want to be the last person standing in the room to think UFOs are fake.
OP referenced the belief that “UFOs are fake,” at which point you piped in, presumably in reference to that.
No one was talking about aliens until you mentioned it just now.
UFOs exist. The evidence for this is as close to incontrovertible as can be; they are not “fake”.
“I need a consensus to be reached before I can have an opinion”. You don’t have critical thought, you have consensus following. That works perfectly fine for most people.
This is it right here. Most, if not all, of those who say “show me the evidence” don’t bother to look at the evidence that is already available. Instead, they resort to dismissive ridicule.
Nate Bargatze mentioned this on his last Netflix special. He was referring more to the insanity of covid but yeah I was the same way. There was a time to where I was obsessed with aliens but now yeah I don't really give a shit either. Even when I'm taking bong rips I still just don't care anymore. The bong rips help soften the existential dread.
If the government is trying to “distract” us from climate change by running a psyop that there are alien probes flying around our airspace and that the Pentagon is illegally hiding groundbreaking technologies that we could reverse engineer to solve the climate crisis and give us virtually free energy, this was an absolutely horrible idea.
It is more nuanced.
It is a project plan being enacted to move the planet from one “dimension/density” to another.
It’s a fast track to the Galactic Reveal, and then next content patch.
The amount of memes I’ve seen about this shit. There is no distraction. No one is being distracted by this. This is a huge deal involving the government hiding billions of dollars of funding secret programs with no congressional oversight
Lollllll the picture of the “world on fire” is a picture of the Temple Burn at Burning Man 2019… apparently the whole world is… attending an arts festival in the desert and creating new rituals for communal grief and cathartic release?
Absolute dead-brain take.
The military industrial complex is spending millions, possibly billions of dollars on investigation and crash retrievals, Grusch has evidence that murders have taken place to keep it quiet.
Not to mention the 14yr career, full bird colonel equivalent ranking, and tasked with investigating every department until he was stonewalled from further investigations.
We had AOC and Gaetz in the same room, in agreement on something and the best yall can come up with is “it’s a distraction”, from what, Hunter Bidens bullshit Laptop case? Or even “but I have rent!” So do your job, get off Reddit or TikTok and actually watch the fucking hearing before you pass judgement.
I think it’s just so when engaged (enraged) citizens see all the money we are plowing into their Space Farce, they can say, “Bbbut… tha alienz…”
The U.S. Space Force's $30 billion budget request for Fiscal Year 2024 is about $3.9 billion over what was enacted for the service in FY2023. More than 60% of the Space Force budget, about $19.2 billion worth, is aimed at research, development, testing and evaluation.
More tax donkey dollars laundered through the pentagon, right into the pockets of their defcon donors/owners.
Are we alone? No. Have we made first contact? No.
I had a slight twinkle in my mind that maybe, just maybe, they would show us some actual evidence of there being life out there other than ourselves, but no, same shit they always say, "It's classified." A waste of fucking time.
They could have spent the day bringing in environmental scientists to tell everyone that the world is on fire, and what we are doing to try to find a solution, this would have been a better use of an entire fucking day.
Go ahead /r/UFO enthusiast, hit me with your moving goal-post of how they can't say anything and UFO's are totally real without citing even a tiny shred of evidence at all, I don't give a fuck. People fucking LIE, all people LIE, and these people were no different, a bunch of fucking liars.
Needless to say, it pissed me off a bit.
Nah. The whole "it's a distraction" cliche has been being yelled for decades despite the fact that it's completely normal for multiple things to be happening in the world at the same time. And people today make up all their own stupid stories and conspiracies without needing actual news informing it.
There’s no way the US would be the *only* country to have evidence of extraterrestrial life.
There’s no way scientists, astronomers, and governments *around the world* are working to gather for a global conspiracy to his something like UFOs. Other countries have telescopes, and satellites.
We’re a media culture, and not a well educated one at that.
Distractions work very well on the American populace.
MFs in this tread try to aguse op of being sheeple or something along the lines. I have some questions for you.
1) why are was majority of the UFO sightings in the US? Do you think that aliens like pop tarts or something?
2) Assange, Snowden, Manning. We know how US treads whisle-blowers when it comes to national security. Why has not neighter of these guys been imprisoned/in exile/or "fallen out of window"
3) Don't you find it conviniend that these hearings happen after US formed space force?
4) There was not a single instance of hard evidence given. No names who are part of conspirisy. All questions that would have been even some sort of brove: " I cannot disquist this in public setting". Isin't this guy suposed to be whisle-blower?
5) what does the goverment benefit from hiding information abouth UFO/ET?
>1) why are was majority of the UFO sightings in the US? Do you think that aliens like pop tarts or something?
I didn't pay much attention to this topic until Grusch came forward, and I really started diving in when I read the UAP disclosure act being pushed by Schumer, Gillibrand, and Rubio in the senate. I also thought this was a uniquely American phenomenon, a quirk of our culture or something. But it turns out there are sightings basically everywhere. There are a few high profile cases from the USSR, quite a few in the rest of Europe, and several in China, and a *lot* in Latin America. There are UFO sighting dead zones in Africa and South Asia, but it's not unheard of there either.
Now, recently it's interesting because, if you believe the Navy pilots that have come forward, they've been seeing tons of these things since upgrading their radar systems back in the early 2000s. They say they encounter UFOs in basically every part of the world they operate in. My guess is, America sees a lot of UFOs because we spend way too much money on military R&D and our sensors are a generation or two ahead of everyone else.
2) Assange, Snowden, Manning. We know how US treads whisle-blowers when it comes to national security. Why has not neighter of these guys been imprisoned/in exile/or "fallen out of window"
Assange, Snowden, and Manning all just leaked classified info. That's why our government has gone after them so hard. Grusch is playing it very strictly by the book. He took his findings to the Inspector General first, and shared classified info with cleared members of congress in a closed hearing. In all his public statements he's been very careful not to divulge anything classified. That's why his answer to half the questions in the hearing was "I can't answer that in an open session, but would be happy to in a SCIF with proper clearance". This is what it would have looked like if, for example, Snowden had followed proper channels instead of just leaking everything to the press.
3) Don't you find it conviniend that these hearings happen after US formed space force?
If they're related, the causal relationship goes the other way. The Nimitz incident, where the tic tac was filmed, happened in 2004. The pentagon updated their process for reporting UAPs sometime between then and 2017, when the tic tac, gofast, and gimbal videos leaked and the pentagon publicly acknowledged their authenticity. Space Force was founded in 2019. Although space force is really just formalizing something the air force was already doing. It's a little like when the air force was spun off from the army, the tech has gotten to the point where it's time to have a new branch.
4) There was not a single instance of hard evidence given. No names who are part of conspirisy. All questions that would have been even some sort of brove: " I cannot disquist this in public setting". Isin't this guy suposed to be whisle-blower?
Again, Grusch is trying to not go to prison. He doesn't want to end up like Snowden and the others. Note there's a difference between "I know and can't tell you" and "I know and am willing to provide specific names, dates, and locations in a legally proper setting". Much of the classified stuff has already been shared with ICIG and cleared members of congress (or their staff) in closed hearings earlier this year.
5) what does the goverment benefit from hiding information abouth UFO/ET?
That's the trillion dollar question isn't it? If this is real, it's not being hidden by "The Government", but by a complex web of intelligence agency SAPs and private contractors, hidden beneath various shrouds of secrecy that were put in place after world war 2, primarily to protect nuclear secrets. The question isn't how the Government benefits, but how does the intelligence community and military industrial complex benefit? And if they manage to get a monopoly on tech literally millions of years more advanced than our current stuff, the benefits to them are unimaginably huge. Or perhaps there was some agreement made with NHI to keep their presence secret for some reason. This is all highly speculative and quickly veers into conspiracy theory woo, so I'd say just be prepared for any possible outcome here.
To #2, those guys released info to journalists and the public right away without going through the proper legal channels. Grusch went through the proper channels and that is why he's not under arrest. There is a process for this shit. That being said, a significant portion of relevant info on this may never be released to us peasants.
Also to #4, there are specific legal procedures to whistleblower disclore. One of the things you cant do is share classified info to the public like Snowden did. So the witnesses were following the law by saying they can only share info in a SCIF.
Ok so let's pretend he is speaking the trurth here. As far as general puplic is concerned we have additional evidence other than second hand testemonies and video from shacky video from 2003. If there is actual merid behind these claims it will most like again be mater of natural security, hense public will be left into dark most likely. This is still just on the grounds of "i want to believe"
If you would actually want to have these things to be know what Snowed did is the only way to do it. He already has wrecked his military career and reputation either way.
Can you actually point to some numbers to back this up? I have heard of a ton of sightings in Isreal and many are over the ocean. Even if this is true, the US has an incredibly large military, and most of the sightings come from pilots and those in the navy, so along with the general stigma against reporting UAPs, its not surprising you might hear about more sughtings from folks in the US.
Less of a distraction tactic and more of a handful of politicians taking a handful of serious complaints by veterans seriously. The major implications that are relevant to collapse are the questions on energy. Supposedly we could have been making clean energy for the last 40 years with the R&D that contractors have done for the US GOV. We should all be pissed about that one.
It’s without a doubt crimes against humanity that we’ve continued to run the planet into dust, but it’s even worse that there was something else that we could have done all along.
‘Earth is Actually a Galactic Prison’
‘Xenospecies Collects Humans for Galactic Zoo’
^([Apocalypse Bingo](https://www.reddit.com/r/ApocalypseBingo/comments/10qotoh/apocalypse_bingo_v3/))
Both things can be true, and as someone who has closely followed both topics for many years, I'm looking forward to the doubters eating crow when proven wrong (on both fronts).
You very obviously did zero research about this subject. The pentagon is trying to kneecap this investigation. If I asked you of we were alone in the universe six months ago you would have said no.
Show me the evidence then.
There is a non zero chance that we are alone in the universe, however the odds of that being true are infinitesimally tiny.
There is a non zero chance that extraterrestrial life has visited earth, however the odds of that being true with yet zero evidence are also infinitesimally small.
Believe it when I see it, until then this is just a circlejerk.
You dont get to see evidence of ongoing investigations unless you're in law enforcement. You have to wait until the trial like everyone else. This is typical legal process. Witness testimony is not hearsay. I understand it's frustrating to not have access to evidence but you're not a detective or lawyer.
The only thing that's frustrating is all the naive believers already being convinced that this is absolutely aliens, rather than the myriad of way more plausible explanations.
Until there's any evidence shown, this is just a silly circlejerk.
Again, evidence has been presented, under oath, by multiple high ranking intelligence officials with bulletproof credentials, over several years, to the Inspector General of Intelligence Community, who verified these as credible and urgent. This is a legitimate whistleblower process.
To put things in perspective, the media and American public were more than willing to listen to a FOREIGN intelligence asset named 'curveball' who claimed Saddam had WMDs. This individual was later shown to be compromised and illegitimate and his intelligence was invalid. Yet somehow several of our own intelligence officials are trying to disclose government programs void of oversight and they are not credible? Despite the pentagon itself essentially disclosing UAP existence in 2017. Despite Obama himself saying on late night there are unexplainable objects. And these officials are literally begging for someone to call them liars and attempt to charge them with perjury. This is no different than the public claiming the Manhattan Project is a ruse.
This guy believes that the us government is dishonest and lying about ufos, and hes basing all of this on the word of several government officials, the jokes wrote themselves.
>they're literally agreeing with you
They're not, I dont believe the U.S government is hiding aliens. The claim that the u.s government is lying about aliens is nonsensical and most importantly undisprovable. If they came out tomorrow and said that this grusch guy is lying and out of his mind, yall wouldnt believe them, and they cant prove a negative. So until I see actual proof, I'm gonna keep thinking its b.s, because occams razor aka that's the most likely situation.
AARO essentially did call Grusch a liar and Grusch said they are compromised, you seem uninformed on the subject to be honest, so it makes sense you don't understand.
>AARO essentially did call Grusch a liar and Grusch said they are compromised
So it's a he said she said situation, where one person has made an outrageous claim with zero proof, but I'm the idiot for not believing the guy screaming aliens. In the whole history of this crazy blue planet we're on I've met plenty of crazy and or lying people, I've met zero aliens though. Call me boring but I'd rather go with the exponentially more likely scenario.
He said the US has been conducting a massive disinformation campaign, why would you be an idiot of that were true? Do you think you're smarter than well funded intelligence agencies?
I don't know why I thought the "The End is Near" subreddit wouldn't be so gullible but here we are.
The end is near. Aliens have not visited our star system.
Sorry, you don't get to pick and choose reality.
Amazed by the people who accept aliens are visiting earth on the basis of a picture of a fuzzy blob but deny climate change is real and ignore all the science.
There was a post on I think /r/TrueUnpopularOpinion that argued that because Trump was president for 4 years and he can't shut up to (literally) save himself from dying in prison he would have bragged at some point about it if it was true.
Because of that the US probably doesn't have aliens and the "whistleblowers" are either just crazy or the entire thing is an op.
I don’t agree with number 2. You’d have to be an incredible narcissist to believe it’s “evil” to leave us to our own devices. It’s neutral and potentially more ethical according to other moral codes.
If you see someone raping a child then it's evil to not stop them if you can according to reasonable definitions of evil. What humanity is doing is far worse than raping a child.
Trillions of animals have suffered in factory farms. Untold millions dead in wars. The billions likely to die miserably this century. The torment of sea creatures have to listen to incessant sonar and wallow in polluted, heating oceans that are losing oxygen. Humanity is an abomination, but not all of it.
There are good people worth elevating and evolving while all this atrocity gets shut down. Allowing it to continue is far worse than allowing acts we'd consider it morally ridiculous not to stop.
On the other hand, I don't think any evil aliens would ever attain interstellar travel because they couldn't solve the cooperation problem. Hence, I don't think aliens have visited us.
Aliens wouldn’t look at a child the same way we do. We see rape and infanticide happen in the animal kingdom all the time and don’t do anything about it, so I guess we’re all evil too.
Humans are indeed evil in general. A major reason they can't cooperate. I can't do anything about atrocity in the animal kingdom, but I recognize its atrocity. An advanced and enlightened species could engineer this atrocity out of nature, replace it, or do away with nature all together since evolution is an engine of atrocity.
I argue that advanced aliens would have empathy. They would feel bad for us much as the rare few of us feel bad for factory farm animals. If I had power, I would stop this atrocity.
1. Interstellar aliens are not exempt from Murphy's Law.
2. So, on par with sapient life we do know about. This seems reasonable because assuming that a group hell-bent on destroying itself will accept help to not destroy itself will be accepted.
If a population was capable of interstellar travel then they would have solved the cooperation problem, which means no "greedy psychopaths" driving them to destruction. That means they'd have far superior morality to ours and be empathetic, which is how they were able to solve the cooperation problem - they'd have to care about each other and the future.
If they came across atrocity like they found on Earth they would recognize that genuinely good people exist in a small minority and they would shut down the atrocity and let the good people guide our evolution under their guidance.
Just conjecture, but what's not conjecture is that, if they're here and doing nothing then they're evil for not stopping the obvious atrocity, which would be within their power. If they are evil, however, then I don't see how they could have solved the cooperation problem.
Therefor, I don't think aliens are here. If they are, they deserve to have their asses kicked for allowing our destruction.
I personally don’t give a fuck about ufos. I do give a fuck about what’s happening to human life. However, even if the pentagon has been lying and covering up things for umpteen years, it’s not surprising. Everyone on this sub knows any government official doesn’t have the best interests of the people and planet in mind anyway.
The UFO bullshit is going to be on every history book in the future of an indication of an era where the most powerful empire on earth went full "idiocracy"
It's just plain stupid how a large chunk of the population and even cuckoos in congress believe in magic little green men from space
Hey .gov cool it.
I know this was part of the "plan" and all. I forget who said it but "aliens" were next on the list.
Here's the problem.
That would mean you have an FTL drive. Lol.
... you think people are gonna be a little pissed at you for not sharing when the planet starts boiling harder?
I have seen infinitely more people bitching about people talking about aliens than I have seen people talking about aliens. Seems to be a pretty shit "distraction".
This is misinformed. If you think through what the allegations mean and the kind of impact these claims would have, the government has no interest in pretending it has rogue agencies misleading its elected officials. Likewise, look at the kind of bipartisanship here. When have we seen this kind of collaboration absent naked political maneuvering for power except where there is legitimate division between internal agencies and congress? I can't think of a single reason why AOC and Gaetz would agree except if an agency is acting outside the boundaries of congressional oversight. In other words, they will only agree on the scope of their authority and their legitimate duty to oversee government programs.
The world is burning. Now more than ever we need to be open to the possibility of a new and unknown future. Maybe a terrible one. But one that is certain? No. Climate change puts this into perspective. We do not know anything about what might happen. Heating, yes. Storms. Wildfires. Collapse. But on what scale? How bad will it be? Where will we go from here, if anywhere?
Potential alien encounters are just another factor in the new epoch of adaptation, survival, or oblivion.
you should look at Chuck Schumer's UAP Disclosure Act, that was added to this years NDAA bill and has already passed the Senate...https://www.democrats.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/schumer-rounds-introduce-new-legislation-to-declassify-government-records-related-to-unidentified-anomalous-phenomena-and-ufos_modeled-after-jfk-assassination-records-collection-act--as-an-amendment-to-ndaa
you have to consider the following: if the US military and defense contractors are in possession of transportation technology that could potentially get us off of our reliance on oil, its absolutely important to get this technology out from its hidden compartments, protected by security clearances, and out into the public.
I believe that was one of the claims Grusch or somebody brought up. Using the so called UAP/NHI technology to revert to clean energy. If the government *does* have this ability but chooses to keep it locked down because capitalism, then that would obviously be the biggest scandal in American history.
It only seems to be distracting Americans. Rest of the world (except those jumping in to these conversations) are not paying attention to Aliens right now.
The world is as it's always been though. People just like to find something to complain about these days. If everything is going well in someone's life, it's boring, so they have to stir the pot a little to make things interesting.
Wrong. Been tracking the ufo Phenomenon for a long time. Govt hasn’t released shit. CONGRESS had a hearing. The pentagon still denies.
It’s a real phenomenon that needs investigation and is not mutually exclusive with climate change.
Aliens being a distraction tactic is one of the dumber takes I’ve heard. No one gives a shit about aliens. The world is full of shallow thinkers who would rather argue over culture war bullshit and the government knows it.
I'm sick and tired of people calling everything a "distraction". Unless you're braindead I'd like to think people can focus on more than one news story in a day. People always say this for large stories simultaneously happening. The amount of people smugly saying the aliens "Are just a distraction for the Hunter Biden case 😏"...Huh?? You mean the other trending topic that every independent and main stream news source is talking about?! It's ALWAYS some story that's extremely easy to look up and already has millions of people talking about it.
I'd also like to ask these people why they think the US government (aka a gang organization that has probably killed people for sharing simple secrets to their family at dinner) wouldn't be really good at keeping secrets. They have more than enough money and resources to ensure the things they NEVER want us to know stays unknown.
So now anytime someone says this I chalk it up to them having either a poor education or attention span. Or do you "it's a distraction" people mean to use the term "false flag"? Sorry for the rant but the amount of people saying this lately for simple things has definitely gone up and it's driving me insane 😂
It's important news. I haven't heard much about the aliens in the news tbh. I also haven't heard much about the growing evidence the virus leaked from the Wuhan lab, which is deeply troubling. China would need to be held accountable.
There's a sort of irony here.
~~The UAP phenomenon~~ Climate change is not real! Go back to consuming and working your 12 hour shifts!
I bet these things are having a blast right now, watching us fight for the stupidest of things while the world is collapsing around us.
I kinda disagree. If anything, mainstream media has been working to downplay and discredit this story.
It’s pretty important, especially considering the implications that superior tech exists, which is and has been reverse engineered that can help with the current climate crisis and many other major human problems, and that it’s being withheld from the population to maximize profits or to maintain military superiority. IMO, the media response to this and so many other topics is designed to keep the current power structure in place, populace be damned. To ignore this story right now is kinda like cutting off your nose to spite your face. I think we should take both things (climate change, the existence of NHI and the recovery of their tech) very seriously because getting said tech into the hands of academics and non-governmental non-defense related companies could hold the answer to some of these problems (fossil fuel dependence, capitalization of items which are basic human needs, etc..)
It at the very least should be explored and examined to see if it’s of use and not just a novel story, but you actively have to search some of these MSM websites to see it outside of Reddit. Nothing to see here.
And if there are billions going to fund reverse engineer in alien tech to only empower the elites, instead of bringing clean energy (as example) ?
​
The question of UAPs this time is serious, and should be taken seriously. It isn't a diversion. There are proofs and hard evidence into the matter.
The program is top secret enough where him coming forward is comparable to talking about the Manhattan project before it's done. I agree it should be top secret but it's been that way for 80 years. We can be sure China, Russia,and Germany are all running retrieval and reverse engineering programs. The information matters to Congress and their budgets. If we have nothing to show after 80 years, we've screwed up and the biological information should be shared with people.
I see it on many subs and I wonder, if it's some organized action. No one has to believe in NHI, but it looks believable this time and it doesn't seem to be just distraction. It doesn't hurt to listen and see what will happen next. It might be just some psy op, but it might be actually real and a lot of questions could be answered.
I get it that this sub is about collapse, but what if it will be the answer to biggest issues humanity currently face? Like, what's the point of fighting against oil, if your mind is not open to possibility that there are already superior energy sources that would allow us to reduce GHGs emissions.
In worst case, no real evidence will be provided and nothing changes.
I used to be hopeful there was something to it. But the second Congress got involved, especially bipartisan, I knew it was going to be an epic red herring. How low on the totem pole, in a fed govt where position on the pole is absolutely everything, do you have to be before you reach the first guy who is in charge of a program? Who can get his hands on even one piece of actual evidence? It's not believable
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Bellybutton_fluffjar:
---
SS. Nothing to see here guys, keep consuming, keep working, here's more distractions, don't let your A/C fail! Related to collapse because our media has failed us. Talking about pointless stuff rather than the existential threat of our time means we probably won't do anything about it. Not that we can now anyway.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/15c0gjl/another_distraction_tactic/jttcte5/
SS. Nothing to see here guys, keep consuming, keep working, here's more distractions, don't let your A/C fail! Related to collapse because our media has failed us. Talking about pointless stuff rather than the existential threat of our time means we probably won't do anything about it. Not that we can now anyway.
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