If not AFIN's, Tapert's original ending for Xena, how would you xenites prefer the two girls to end their journey? And would people prefer they adventure on forever until old age, before they reincarnate and adventure together over again?
Posted by Latte-Catte@reddit | xena | View on Reddit | 77 comments
It's just a thought I've considered recently. If not Xena's death then how would everyone prefer her redemption? Or does everyone prefer Xena to keep going through more tumultuous journey to never finding an end to her past sins?
Personally, I thought Xena's ending in this life cycle can only be right-ed by dying heroically for a grand cause. Which is kinda Tapert's idea for AFIN already, however he sullied it by including an entire dlc lore with this awful Akemi character. And brandish her death off with the villain escaping punishment, living another day to haunt other livings (-_-). And ofc, this one time all of Xena's plan are complete folly, and didn't pane out, leading to her permanent death. Terrible.
But imo Tapert had the right idea, just bad execution topped off with terrible writings.
Since the ending disappointed everyone, I'm curious to know what people would prefer their ending to be instead.
TangledUpPuppeteer@reddit
I’m in the minority, but I kinda liked it. I loathe it for all of the reasons everyone else listed, but I liked it because it made sure, in the last season, to pretty much wrap up all the loose ends overall. I agree, I didn’t give a hoot about the villain, but it wasn’t about that. Gabrielle always played side kick to Xena, and in the last episode she got what she had dreamed of — she was a true warrior. Not just someone that could fight, but someone that could plan and execute as well. She became what she wanted and the best version of it. It wasn’t destruction for the sake of it the way Xena once was.
It didn’t play well, I agree. I can’t even argue it. But what they tried to do was a good ending. Which is why I kinda liked it.
Latte-Catte@reddit (OP)
One part I do disagree on, I think Gabrielle's real dream has developed past her sidekick insecurity. That was maybe her season 1 to season 4 internal turmoil, but I'm quite certain it got resolve around Xena's pregnancy with Eve. But it was treated as an off-screen development. Something which Gabrielle pretty much become secure with by season 6. She was absolutely ready to be an Amazon Queen by season 4 Endgame, and her journey reaching her peak at Helicon and Back. In AFIN, I'd argue that's where Gabrielle's dream got shattered, since that implied she'd have to journey alone without Xena 😿
TangledUpPuppeteer@reddit
I don’t really think Gabrielle’s dream was shattered.
I mean her NEW dream, yes, but the dream that made her pack a bag and leave home wasn’t shattered.
The last episode felt, to me, like XENA was the side kick in some ways. And that’s probably why it felt a little off too.
Musical_Xena@reddit
There are certain elements that I would want to be well-represented in the finale, whever the story looks like.
(Numbering for the sake of any conversation/replies, not in order of importance.)
1) Xena and Gabrielle having moments of strong emotional connection
2) Xena kicking butt, a mix of having fun and being snarky and then some intense battles where it's a challenge for her
3) Can we have Gabrielle fast-talking her way out of some sticky situations, or doing some bard stuff effectively? I feel like the "warrior" part of "warrior bard" overshadowed her original skills in the last 2 seasons.
4) Choices that show how both Xena and Gabrielle have grown and changed during their time together
5) A setting we care about due to the show's history. Japan would have been cool as a setting for random episodes, but felt out of place for a finale. It just felt too disconnected from everything before it.
6) Inclusion of other characters that have significance to us due to their history... This one is tricky with the combo of skipping 25 years and killing so many characters. BUT it's a fantasy show. So, I want a plot where those characters CAN be included, due to some magical or supernatural element. And not just included, but central to the plot. Have a mission where Ephony and Borias are fighting their way in to the centaur afterlife, idk. Give us quality time with some of our favorite characters so we get to feel all the feels and see them one last time.
Latte-Catte@reddit (OP)
One thing I must say about the Japa subplot, that ending simply felt like a bad fanfiction by Tapert himself. He even admits his idea was grander in his head than what the end product turn out to be. It's no wonder despite the expensive production, the ending just felt incorrect to Xena's story. It felt like character assassination if anything.
The entire thing should've just stayed in Greece, maybe give Xena a final showdown even relating to Ares and maybe Alti. They are her eternal nemesis that's bound to stick around after this lifetime anyway.
Musical_Xena@reddit
Fully agree with the "bad fanfiction" take. Didn't feel like the same show at all.
The first time I watched it, it made me feel...weird. I loved Xena, so I wanted to love the episodes. It was like watching a favorite show if that show were produced in an alternate universe. Same characters, same actors, but just totally off. Which is very similar to fanfiction, really.
FirefighterThink1556@reddit
I don’t mind AFIN existing, it’s just not an ending to Xena’s story as far as I’m concerned
ChippieChamp@reddit
The problem with AFIN is that, there were no builds up to the story. Of the characters and the history of Japa beforehand, then Gabrielle became the new warrior in the end of the episode was rush.
I would mine for Xena to die in the end, but the whole story hardly made 2 cents. While hardly cared for the characters in the story, specially Akemi come off wanting Xena do all the task for her.
Making Xena to stay dead, something that shouldn’t be her job. As Akemi take Xena away from Gabrielle, making Gabrielle be all alone in the end.
FirefighterThink1556@reddit
Oh man there are a million issues with AFIN but I think the main ones come down to the fact that it’s trying to be an ending. The idea that Xena’s redemption quest has an ending is so antithetical to the show. And yeah, they did a very bad job with Gabrielle, the episode is offensive as a beginning to her solo hero quest. As an episode, AFIN is decent, I actually really enjoy the first one and parts of the second one. But as an ending it just doesn’t mean anything.
ChippieChamp@reddit
Yes, part 1 was an ok episode with beautiful moments. But I still didn’t likes that, Xena teaching Gabrielle everything. Specially the Pinch in this episode, as it felt out of character of Xena to finally teach Gabrielle now in the finale.
But part 2 just was terrible and Xena get killed off, so horrible and Gabrielle has to finish out that soulmate is suddenly dead.
Then Akemi make her go a mission to receive Xena deceased body, burned it then collected the ashes and heads to the mountain. To bring her soulmate back only was for nothing and the ending of the second finale, felt so rushed and didn’t feels too emotional to both of them.
As even Gabrielle didn’t get any chance to process everything that happened, before she was sent to a mission to get Xena back as it probably was Akemi planned for Gabrielle waste time.
Making sure Gabrielle do not make it in time for her to bring Xena back, as only a few seconds to Xena back as had to deal with the dude that. Xena killed in beginning of part 2, but of course Xena tell Gabrielle not to.
Then tell that she has to stay in order to souls safe from traps again, and again Gabrielle still get no time to process everything that she heard. Then suppose to accept that how it should be, even if Gabrielle likes it as there nothing she do about other then. Just accept that how it is.
Also, don’t know. If Xena even had a choice to choose death for or can be brought to life and spent her life with Gabrielle.
It sounds like Xena didn’t, I feels like she may. But she chose death, because of guilt that. Percent completely her fault that, those victims who were killed in a blazes a long ago.
EBJ1990@reddit
Yeah I think if they changed some things, this could be a fine season finale but not great as an ending to the series. If they made it a three part episode, they could make Akemi the villain who wants Xena's soul. But the episode we got is upsetting.
ChippieChamp@reddit
Yes, if it there was part 3 and change things. It might be an okay finale of season 6, I also like the idea that Akemi is villain the whole time and not Yodoshi.
EBJ1990@reddit
Yeah and Gabrielle can spend part 3 in Greece to get Aphrodite (and Ares) to help her resurrect Xena's body and defeat Akemi. Boom it's fixed.
ChippieChamp@reddit
Yes, I would love that idea. Gabrielle bringing Xena back that way with Aphrodite and Ares helping, Gabrielle with her quest for reviving Xena back to life and Japa never happens.
But instead we got 2 disappointment last episodes as a finale for the 6 season, that just went terribly and was executed well or properly as most of stories of the finale hardly made sense.
All because Rob wanted to make his damn Hong Kong fighting action flick, into the show and decided to added that into the final 2 episodes of season 6.
EBJ1990@reddit
Yes it made no sense! Give us the characters we actually care about! We care about Aphrodite/Ares/Eve! Leave the Hong Kong Film at home!
ChippieChamp@reddit
Yep, exactly. The last 2 episodes should’ve ended with a story and characters that, we know about like Aphrodite, Ares or Eve.
As I would like the finale was focus on Eve, being the new warrior or something and end with that.
Than what we got in the finale that Rob gave us.
EBJ1990@reddit
Yes and they can let Eve be a new warrior and also let Gabby fight while also focusing on her writing. They sadly stepped away from that towards the end.
ChippieChamp@reddit
Oh, yes definitely. Eve as new warrior and continued her mother legacy or something, while Gabrielle can do her other passion as a story writing.
And yeah, they stop making Gabrielle doing that. I think after season 3 as it didn’t continued, while it was briefly shown her writing story in season 5.
Where she and Aphrodite talk about that Gaby was have trouble, getting back into her passion of writing after her last story writing I think. Was where Aphrodite enchanted Gabrielle scroll in that comedy episode in season 3, as I don’t think she continue that not even in season 4 I don’t believe.
EBJ1990@reddit
Yes Aphrodite enchanted the scroll was season 3 (and yeah they don't really have her writing going into season 4). I love the Gabrielle/Aphrodite friendship so I definitely would have wanted to see more of them.
ChippieChamp@reddit
Yeah, after that episode. I don’t think it continues in season 3, before none of that happens in season 4. While like I mentioned it was briefly, touch on in one episode in season 5.
Yes, I love to see more friendship between Gabrielle and Aphrodite too. As I specially love, how much Aphrodite care about Gabrielle in Motherhood.
EBJ1990@reddit
I think it's sad since the writing is what makes her an individual from Xena. I don't like that they tried to sell our Gabby as Xena 2.0 at the end.
And yes I ADORE Aphrodite caring about Gabby in Motherhood. I wish we got more of that. Alexandra Tydings was amazing.
ChippieChamp@reddit
I love the friendship between Gabrielle and Aphrodite, as I wish We had more of that in season 5 and 6. Before Motherhood and Many Happy Returns.
EBJ1990@reddit
Yes! More of them would definitely be welcome.
ChippieChamp@reddit
100%
ChippieChamp@reddit
Yes! I definitely agree, I just like the idea. Gabrielle is Xena successor at the end of the finale, that was kinda weak and didn’t actually make much sense.
Because I feel like this is, something that I don’t think Gabrielle wanted. At least not in this way, as I would be okay with that.
If it was built up in the sixth season, but writing that as a plot in the finale of season 6. Was Really flat and wasn’t that, believable a enough this is what Gabrielle wanted.
As I can tell that, she didn’t really want it. As I felt like the writers force Xena to have teach, Gabrielle everything and force her to become her soulmate new warrior at the end.
ChippieChamp@reddit
Also, I dislike the boat scene in the end. That Gabrielle is alone with Xena spirit or ghost with her, I would rather have Gabrielle making it back home to Greece in Amphipolis.
Laying Xena to rest then maybe have Ares appear and Gabrielle probably can sense him like Xena, whether Ares is now aware the Xena is dead or he realized that she is dead.
Latte-Catte@reddit (OP)
How much more can they go on though? They've already killed all the gods expect Ares and Aphrodite, they basically call for the centaurs and Amazon's extinction. They pretty much wrote everything to prepare an ending to the series, except they wrote us a terrible one.
FirefighterThink1556@reddit
I think any way they ended it was going to be inherently open ended just by nature of the show, so it’s pointless to try and give it a definitive ending. I’m not saying they needed to continue it, but there are endless possibilities for where it could go next (as evidenced by hundreds of fanfics), the show had long since outgrown Greece and they did a bad job wrapping up basically all of the character development, so there is plenty left to be desired.
SpecialK623@reddit
Slightly odd topic but that explains why Xena was so much older than Gabby in their next lives.
Musical_Xena@reddit
Yes! I was thinking about that during my rewatch of Season 4 recently. Seems like we saw the very next reincarnations of both Xena and Gabrielle, not just any reincarnations.
FirefighterThink1556@reddit
This is a big question I have for Steven Sears. I interpreted Alti saying she had been looking for the body with Xena’s karma for a long time to mean that at least a few lifetimes had passed, but I’ve also heard people say that they think the flash forward thing with the babies is a literal play through of everything in between, so that Xena just has a few very short lives before Arminestra and Shakti is Gabrielle’s very next.
Agent8699@reddit
In general, I would have liked:
Musical_Xena@reddit
I really like your ideas about the season long buildup, the Greek setting, and uniting characters/groups.
It would show how far Xena has come. As a warlord, she was all about division, and as "Good Xena," she was often like "I'll do it myself." Building alliances would be the opposite extreme from her warlord days. Borias would be proud. And it would give Gabrielle a chance to use her bard skills more.
The Greek setting grounds the show in its roots.
The season long buildup would have been more satisfying than 2 episodes which feel totally disconnected, imo. As long as it was done well.
Latte-Catte@reddit (OP)
They could've easily build off of the Livia Rome plotline if they didn't rush the Pax Romana event. Livia also deserve far more spotlight than boring Eve.
Agent8699@reddit
I agree. But, that would require a rewrite of season 5 and 6 and I wasn’t sure how far back I could alter the timeline 😅
Latte-Catte@reddit (OP)
I just wanted to add my own opinion since I do agree with your list. However by s6 they were already writing ways to end the show, from Ares' farm to Happy Returns, all of the gods' development are pretty much complete.
Not to mention Rome story is clearly Tapert's strong suit, rather than playing with Japanese/Hong Kong movie tributes. He did good with Debt only because they found the right cast (Borias, Lao Ma, Ming Tien) at the right time. There were so much production problems behind AFIN and it wasn't just the bad cgi, and extremely expensive. It's just unfortunate they written themselves into such a corner they can no longer lead on from past plot points for a grand finale.
Tricky_Direction_897@reddit
Eek. I was with you until Xena loses a limb
Agent8699@reddit
Totally fair. For me, I just don’t see Xena … settling / slowing down until she’s forced to. Otherwise, she’ll just keep wandering around getting into fights until she dies.
So, losing a hand or arm “forces” her to settle down, allowing Xena an opportunity to find peace another way and also allows Gabrielle an opportunity to be the Amazon Queen, healer or whatever she chooses.
Xena would still be formidable and take the odd … mercenary job. She could also seek to atone for her sins against the Amazons by teaching them her many skills, like tree flipping / flying which she learned from the Northern Amazons.
It’s also a cheeky nod to Evil Dead.
Tricky_Direction_897@reddit
Oh, I got the nod. I just can’t stand the thought of it. Ash losing his hand (doesn’t he get it back in the end, or am I misremembering?) feels different to me than Xena doing the same. I’d much rather they just ride off into the sunset . Maybe Xena dies in battle in the (not so) distant future - I just don’t want that to be how the series ends! Nor do I want her to lose a limb! I actually dont think she could stand it and I don’t think it would force her to settle down - in my opinion, I think she would just find another way to go out in a blaze of glory - AFIN all over again
EBJ1990@reddit
I love this idea! No complaints! Having a build up while still having individual stories is great. And keep it in Greece!
RiversSecondWife@reddit
Does no one remember that AFIN was a rushed re-write after Kevin Smith died so unexpectedly? What was the original story when Ares was included?
Agent8699@reddit
That’s incorrect. There was an initial, very rough idea of including Eve and Ares (and maybe Aphrodite) in FIN, presumably at the very end. But, it was never in the script.
And Smith didn’t pass away until sometime after FIN was filmed.
Latte-Catte@reddit (OP)
Why wasn't Kevin Smith, the all-time villain of both Xena and Hercules, included in AFIN tho? They totally missed out on a big finale showdown (again) between Ares and Xena. But perhaps this time Ares causing Xena's death? Might be the best character development for the god of war of all time, food for thoughts.
Agent8699@reddit
I don’t think that was ever the original intention for his brief appearance. I think it would have been a small … epilogue / coda with Gabrielle back in Greece laying Xena’s ashes to rest in the family tomb and Eve, Ares and possibly Aphrodite are there to also say goodbye to Xena.
But, even that is fan speculation. All we really know with some small degree of credibility is that TPTB briefly considered included other characters, but then decided to keep it to just Xena and Gabrielle (probably so FIN could stand on its own and appeal to more casual fans who would be very confused to discover Xena apparently has a daughter who is older than her wife).
Latte-Catte@reddit (OP)
They totally did the fans dirty after all lol
No Ares, Xena's death, Akemi's betrayal TWICE, and leaving Gabrielle alone forever with no 30 seconds gaze into her eyes.
Agent8699@reddit
Gabrielle got to stare into the eyes of the giant Xena head in the sky! 🤣
Latte-Catte@reddit (OP)
Gabi was grieving so hard she began hallucinating Xena into the sunrise 😭😭
Agent8699@reddit
Kinda awkward Gabrielle hallucinated Xena looking like she did … 32 years ago though. What was Gabrielle’s subconscious trying to say?
RiversSecondWife@reddit
Yeah we already talked about that
ChippieChamp@reddit
I think it anything to do with Kevin sudden death is why the AFIN was rushed, I think it was rushed cause Rob couldn’t fit much stuff in the story in 2 episodes.
As he wanted to makes his loved Hong Kong action films into the show as he decided to put it into the 2 last episodes, as the finale of the 6 season and of course how it turn out as it was a mess and disaster as most audiences and fans completely hates it.
Plus, Kevin after the show ended. As died a year later.
RiversSecondWife@reddit
Ah, this was old old info, told to me 20 years ago and it made sense to me. I see he was due to start a new project that would likely have launched him far… dammit. RIP Kevin.
ChippieChamp@reddit
Yes, Kevin was on a coming up movie. When suddenly accidental fell, after he claim on prop tower and suffered major injuries.
As he fell into a coma, but died 10 days later. After he no longer responding to life.
koiivy@reddit
I absolutely agree that Xena should die a heroic battlefield death in the finale. Nothing else makes sense for her ending.
ChippieChamp@reddit
Yes, Xena should went down. Like a blaze of glory in battle or a big boss, not how Xena just takes these arrows before she was killed off.
Tricky_Direction_897@reddit
I wanted them riding off into the sunset to go on more adventures
Ok-Change2292@reddit
As far as I’m concerned, that’s what happened! lol I frequently imagine the ending is just a dream or something…
Tricky_Direction_897@reddit
In all fairness I think that’s what Tapert expected, too! He’d planned 5 TV movies which picked up after AFIN. I believe gabby was going to Egypt to resurrect her from what I read
Agent8699@reddit
Not quite.
The studio offered Tapert a deal to do 3/4 TV movies instead of a full season 7. They wanted more Xena.
Lawless and ROC did not and turned it down. They wanted to do other things, particularly in terms of family.
It’s slightly possible that the idea of FIN, being a remake of A Chinese Ghost Story with Xena dying at the end, was intended to be the final TV movie. But, Tapert probably didn’t plan things out that far.
Many years later, Tapert tried to make a big screen movie in which Gabrielle would resurrect Xena in Egypt. He wasn’t able to secure independent funding, so it never happened.
ChippieChamp@reddit
If Lucy and Renee turned down tv movies, because they Wanted to make 3/4 part sequels films. After the show have ended, instead another season.
Which I can’t blame them as Lucy and Renee were getting pretty tired, specially Renee is American and she being staying or living in New Zealand for about 6 years.
As it was times for Renee returned back home to the US as I can’t imagine, Renee would have to stay longer in New Zealand for the movie.
While she wanted to start a family as she was 30, when she had her first child and while at the same time.
She was pregnant with her first child during filming, for the last 2 episodes of the the sixth season.
Technical_Activity78@reddit
I felt like I had a stroke reading this.
ChippieChamp@reddit
?
Tricky_Direction_897@reddit
…But ultimately, he intended a resurrection story. He said that in multiple interviews. But thanks
Agent8699@reddit
Well, no. When FIN was written and filmed - that was it. Lawless was over it. Tapert was done. If anything he killed off Xena so no one else could play with his toys.
Then some years later, potentially inspired by fan demand, he considered bringing Xena back as a way to make another big screen, high profile movie.
Sure, inexplicably sending Gabrielle to Egypt, with its resurrection mythology, may have been a built in “get out of gaol card”, but Tapert definitely did not have any plans to resurrect Xena in 2001.
Tricky_Direction_897@reddit
I’ve read differently. Not looking to argue the point 🤷🏻♀️
Technical_Activity78@reddit
You’re wrong.
IseQween@reddit
I was sad the show was ending, but how it did so didn't disappoint me. I frankly wonder how different the continuing interest and debate about XWP would be if they rode/flew/walked off alive/as spirits in the same realm. As it is, fans still imagine them continuing on -- through fiction, videos, illustrations, dialogues, etc. -- in so many ways beyond what the creators could have conceived or shown.
Personally, I build on the TV version. Gabs moves on with Xena's spirit inspiring her as needed. She gets to experience her potential ruling as Amazon queen, establishing a separate village reflective of her ideals, furthering her rep as warrior bard, always on the lookout for resurrecting Xena. She finds a way that will not diminish Xena's sacrifice or jeopardize the 40,000 souls. They reunite in the flesh, challenged and excited by discovering how each has changed, going on to explore different forms of home, family, personal growth, service to others as they age and prepare to transition to another future together.
summer_james2@reddit
One thing: leave the “if I have thirty seconds to live” scene/dialogue ALONE!!!!
FirefighterThink1556@reddit
Amen.
WayHaught_N7@reddit
As far as I’m concerned When Fates Collide is the finale and it should have been the finale.
ChippieChamp@reddit
When Fates Collide was a good episode, I would have to go with Many Happy Returns. As the finale episode right after When Fates Collide.
ChippieChamp@reddit
Yes! Me too, I prefer Many Happy Returns as my finale.
carz4us@reddit
Yes, these are the real last two episodes of the series. Fight me on it Tapert lol
Overall-Ask-8305@reddit
I think the show was always going to end with Xena’s death. In season 4, Xena is told her destiny in The Way and she is destined to be reborn a saint. That was the foreshadowing of her death. Dying in Jappa was an odd choice, as I thought it should be Chin if going back to the East, or even Greece, but ultimately it didn’t matter. Xena got a warrior’s death and that was the important part.
NoReach1699@reddit
I like AFIN. It has a few flaws, but no more flaws than other xena episodes. They just feel more intense cause it's the finale. I love the episode, it's well directed, has great visuals, a decent enough plot and akemi is in my opinion a very interesting character. I would love to know more about her life. It's romantic, dramatic, xena's death is heroic and we can really imagine gabrielle hero's journey from there.
A finale always can be better, and everyone has different wishes for the characters but I always liked the finale a lot.
Xena vs arrows in the forest is maybe my favorite sequence in the intire show
Gabrielle vs Morimoto is AMAZING
And Akemi is a morally shady character that I can understand
We, AFIN lovers, we are few, but we exist. We don't talk much because of THE DISCOURSE about the finale, but we are here 🤭
EasyEntrepreneur666@reddit
I don't mind Xena dying but in a more sensible fashion. And the finale should take place in Greece with a more personal opponent.
Ok-Change2292@reddit
I like to think that Gabrielle wakes up and the episodes all the way back to the pregnancy are all just part of a dream.
ChippieChamp@reddit
If the whole premise of Xena journey of redemption have to end her life in death, I wish it was built up during the sixth season and Gabrielle journey of be the warrior.
That she wish to become in the beginning of the first episode of the first season was earns throughout the 6 season, instead it happened in the last minute episode of the last season of the show and the whole story and plot was rushed.
As there were no time to cared for the characters and plot of the story, Xena death felt also rush and her need stay by Akemi come out of nowhere.
While Gabrielle has no time to react properly, about Xena shocking suddenly death and she rush. Into a mission of a promise that, she could bring her back life.
Once Xena task is done to defeat the enemy. But later finding out that, she can’t and Gabrielle is forced to let her go. As there were no emotional goodbyes, Gabrielle just had to accept that how it must be whether she likes or not.
If the ending finale had to go that way, I wish it could have build up in the 6 seasons. Instead of being the last moment for the last 2 episodes season, which it wasn’t executed very well as I didn’t blame the audience and fans for hating it.
As the finale episodes was done very bad and poor, I don’t wish we just got a better ending for the last season.
Kinda wish that Eve, Varia, Ares and etc. was involved in the finale.