Classic fairy tales or Disney only?
Posted by Newborn-Molerat@reddit | AskAnAmerican | View on Reddit | 90 comments
Do Northern Americans read pre-Disney stories?
Is it common knowledge they are just adaptations of much older fairy tales?
And that these bedtime stories are much darker, not always with good defeats evil endings, sometimes tragic or unjust?
And why they were/are intended for children even though they are sometimes directly opposite to innocent stories full of cute singing animals?
Context: Recently, I’ve realised I see lots of people from USA talking about fairytales only from Disney factory. As if Disney versions were originals - created by Disney or faithful adaptations of originals, just animated. But few posts are hardly of any statistical value or source for understanding a whole huge, diverse and varied society.
Hoosier_Jedi@reddit
Holy shit. You actually think we might not know fairy tales existed before Disney? God, people will believe anything about Americans so long as it’s BAD. 🙄
Newborn-Molerat@reddit (OP)
I don’t want to offend you. It’s just a character limitation for question what made me reduce the explanation I wanted to provide to avoid this reaction.
As I write, I’ve met few people who really didn’t know it or acted as if they didn’t know it (or weren’t able to see connection) and as much as their ignorance frustrated me, I don’t consider few posts or online/personal discussions as a valid and relevant representation of the whole society. I don’t give it any statistical relevance nor accepting it as a standard of average American knowledge.
I consider them painfully stupid, not as a painful proof that all 340 mil people are this stupid. People of vastly different races, culture or heritage, living in federation of dozens states located within the vast area, varying in environmental, social, economic, urban density and other conditions. With similar customs, president and federal law enforcement but with different state level governments and laws,with short but extremely different history based on regional location. With different educational standards and qualities… Etc etc.
It would make me pretty dumb, not these people. Not you people.
It just made me curious. I have no personal experience living in USA, in different places but always long enough to get better understanding. I can’t possibly know all influential variables causing this ignorance. I can’t travel to USA and do research my own but I can ask dumb questions on reddit and getting some data this way.
UnfairHoneydew6690@reddit
See I think it’s “painfully stupid” to give a rats ass if someone knows the “classic” version or not.
Ever think maybe the Disney version is so popular because people don’t to read their kids bedtime stories about girls getting raped and murdered?
MyUsername2459@reddit
This.
We know there are versions of the stories that are older than Disney.
Those versions of the stories really wouldn't fit well with modern culture, values, and sensibilities. People don't want to tell their kids stories of children being eaten, raped, murdered etc. They don't want to tell their kids stories where most of the characters die along the way, usually in horrible ways.
Just like other stories of like Robin Hood and Arthurian legend have been reinterpreted over the centuries to reflect the cultures and peoples of those eras, classic fairy tales get re-told too.
I mean, I can't stand Disney as a corporation, but if they didn't re-tell those stories they'd either be culturally irrelevant or completely forgotten here by now.
Littleboypurple@reddit
Wait, you mean that Robin Hood wasn't always a super chill Fox Man?
jurassicbond@reddit
No, he's a man. A man in tights.
He roams around the forest looking the forest looking for fights
He robs from the rich then gives to the poor, that's right!
TheRealTaraLou@reddit
They may look like pansies
MrLongWalk@reddit
It’s not offensive, just annoyingly typical desire to see Americans as 2-dimensional idiots.
Low-Run-9706@reddit
Yeah, it's interesting to me that so many people from other parts of the world are quick to make assumptions about Americans, particularly when it comes to our knowledge of world culture. Now, I'm not trying to convince you that everyone here is an expert on global folk tales (the US has plenty of ignorant people who rarely pick up a book); nonetheless, it's part of our national DNA to be highly literate. And our public schools are not nearly as bad as you've been lead to believe.
CupBeEmpty@reddit
I have some super dark, classist and kind of racist fairytales for you if you need a bedtime story.
Then, don’t judge, but I’ve been reading my daughter Snow Crash. It has a positive ending but I skip a lot of it.
Red_Beard_Rising@reddit
My mother had me reading Stephen King in middle school. She also stole my game boy to play Tetris at work.
CupBeEmpty@reddit
Man your mom was not like mine.
ExistentialCrispies@reddit
Now now, let's be fair. "I heard some Americans say a thing" is a totally reasonable thing to then infer that 340M people all know nothing but what this person heard those people say.
Rare_Independent_814@reddit
Um we have heard of Grimms. Why do you assume Americans only believe in Disney?
Newborn-Molerat@reddit (OP)
Thanks of asking one if few really important questions here I haven’t explained properly as it seemed it would have been ignored or misinterpreted anyway.
I don’t believe it and never did. It was more like control question to remove some redundant variables I needed to get of my head to have a clear sheet and firm base for real hypothesis.
But I struggle with empathy and have my emotions largely disconnected. So Sometimes I do this kind of embarrassing stuff, not realising it might be considered wrong. Even now I can’t see there’s any reason for emotional responses and misunderstanding. For me, when read it together I see clear research plan with main question easily recognised. But I see they are badly explained and therefore confusing. Anyway, I know for sure I am wrong no matter what. I have enough evidence including nutcase licence reminding me it’s always my head going merry go round. :D
But even though nonsense, this false impression about US citizens is now way too easy to fall for. Why? This one sided view is nearly all what we are getting from mainstream sources provided by google search engine. Not stating this explicitly but pushing this narrative inconspicuously into our mind as a non invasive but neverending earworm:
Clickbait headlines of videos or tabloid articles, reddit discussions analysing symbolism of Disney tales in nearly all details and mostly insignificant, but never any topic discussing origins (I am still talking about these links and their previews, nothing even close to proper research or anything). This is ok and hardly suspicious but it gets problematic soon - even keywords asking for info on traditional and classical American fairy tales, folklore and verbal art gets a bloatware of tabloid articles related to Disney classics.
When searching for US classical fairy tales, mostly garbage articles from pseudo sources like Buzfeed, explaining that “… it may be surprising for some of us but good old Disney ‘classics’ we all love and have the fondest memories of are based on much older fairytales and folk stories”. And then warning their readers that these stories “are way darker than we’d expect based on lovely stories they know from early childhood”. I use quotations but this is not exact citation, just to emphasize the style these texts are using. And then using bombastic rhetoric and cheap tricks to make it sound like some long lost secret they finally revealed, Tutankhamen mummy of verbal creativity.
This is especially infuriating to the girl working as a films and games localisations provide since the most of the shows are taking place in United States. Her work is largely based on never ending searching for information related to source. not only it takes longer now but she needs to be more creative and tries more variations of keywords to force search engine to do its work
Anyway, this wall is always there and is all you can usually see without investing lots of time into searching for specific keywords -and finding it in the digital trash of vaguely related links, advertisements pretending to be related…
It fixed its roots firmly to the ground are now is creeping up and spreading.
These people are clever and self aware. They understand it’s a nonsense but facing this impenetrable wall, subconsciously their otherwise rational minds are slowly inclined towards are this pretty biased view. Still negating it strictly but feeling more and more comfortable around it.
i’ve realised am also hooked and manipulated.
I never believed it, not even for a second, but after few unrelated moments referring fairly tales. Two of them confirming it, I felt suddenly unsure. Even though it’s just simple common sense.
i needed that control question as a helping hand. I was doubting everything and needed some fixed point. :D
Anyway, I doubt this D-centrism is global issue.
I guess Disney, gigant of entertainment industry, is spending a fortune to be picked up by Google search algorithm even if its relevance is vague and close to nonexistent. And to be always on top of the list. Our group - people experiencing this infuriating D-centrism - is probably considered relevant for the company and for some reason share the same sphere of Disney influence, AI prompts censoring our searches… I don’t know. But since Google introduced its Skynet , I am experiencing time to time AI refuses to search for what I ask as its convinced it knows better what I want and need.
I won’t be surprised if they combined it with some large scale targeting.
I got this searching issues confirmed from 6 sources so far (not all are sure about it tho). We are of similar age category , living in different places but all in states of central Europe, different jobs and hobbies, some having Disney plus, others not even close to googling anything Disney related. But some of us are often in need of various SW related stuff. SW is Mickey Mouse, and since one SW googler is also connection pin for all in this group -maybe he is the patient zero of this so far only theoretical virtual kidnapping?
KC-Anathema@reddit
...yes, we even have them in our English classes for basic literary analysis before branching into deeper fare.
Newborn-Molerat@reddit (OP)
This is something I read for a first time here in this reddit thread. And it explains a lot - mostly why my first question sounds so idiotic. And also forms new questions -like why searching algorithm is foisting upon me a massive flood of D-related links I never asked for, not to mention countless same-dif tabloid articles describing Grimms - apparently commonly known fact - so bombastically as if it was a first deciphered copy of Rosetta Stone - but not a single post, opinion or article mentioned this “small and insignificant” detail.
Vegetable-Star-5833@reddit
Wow. Apparently Americans can’t read now
Curmudgy@reddit
You're doing what you're complaining about, inferring a false conclusion that wasn't stated.
Newborn-Molerat@reddit (OP)
I am sorry for your minuses if you happen to care about it. You are absolutely correct but absolutely unpopular for it.
Avery_Thorn@reddit
Conversely - some of the Disney media that you think is original are based on US folk tales and fairy tales, as well.
Briar Rabbit, John Henry, Davy Crocket, Daniel Boone, Johnny Appleseed, Paul Bunion (and the Big Blue Ox), and many of the other characters are based off of American fairy tales, and some of those are based on real people.
Newborn-Molerat@reddit (OP)
Davy Crockett is my favourite American guy and I really hope Savage is right and Davy indeed split the bullet in two half. :D but I don’t remember why he started this rumor. Just as a cool (let’s call it efficient) way to kill two guys or did he really claim he killed someone this way?
Otherwise I don’t know but I check them, thanks.
I am much more into history than into Disney btw.
I admire Walt and envy his endurance and iron will. And I am fascinated by his revolutionary work in animation industry, especially compared to pre-Disney standards. 12 principles are still golden rules of Western - US - animation and have its use even in 3d to some extent. This man is a true legend.
But otherwise… I like Pirates of Caribbean, dont like Kennedy still sitting on throne of LucasArts. As for classical 2D films, I admire their technical aspects. Films are like exhibition of the best what they achieved. But I never liked them, not even as a child. They felt too shallow and meaningless compared to books.
And that’s all Disney I know despite all D- articles and videos bombarding me like Tipi Hedren birds.
Curmudgy@reddit
You've probably been bit by autocorrect or speech-to-text. It's Br'er Rabbit, where br'er is derived from the word brother, not briar.
Colodanman357@reddit
Yes we know of, read, and enjoy fairytales of all sorts. The Mouse, the Bird, and the Sausage is my favorite Grimm’s fairy tale for example. We also have many American folk talks that fit a similar niche.
Newborn-Molerat@reddit (OP)
Yes. I am pretty sure you have and I’d love to read or see some tv or film based on that! Without teen infantilisation or children friendly rating. Something else than wendigo or Salem witches (and all its copies) as they are well known everywhere. This is why I am so dumbly asking - Apart from few popular Native American stories and few (I guess? Not sure about its origin honestly) tales like headless soldier popularised by Sleepy Hollow or Sweeney Todd,a common foreigner without any better source and without deep interest in American mythology, mythos and folklor is almost always bombarded only by Disney films referred as a synonymum for “classics”. And most talks, references, videos and articles not related to new production from studios like Pixar etc. are also Disney-centric.
HeySandyStrange@reddit
There are quiet a few more American folktales then the ones you described. But I won’t call you dumb or ignorant from not knowing them.
Newborn-Molerat@reddit (OP)
As well as I don’t call you dumb or ignorant for not knowing I used these words because I was referring to person who started attacking small game developers from Europe who were working on their indie game very closely based on their local, very dark and gruesome version of one fairytale. This dummyhead was full of righteous anger and as everyone full of righteous anger, even he looked as exceptional fool. Arguing they were turning his favourite and completely innocent cartoon fairy tale into horrible and disturbing horror and threatening innocent children minds as they might accidentally play it thinking it’s a game based on their favourite Disney classics.
I don’t call you this aggressive and derogative way because I never stated that before and you couldn’t possibly know what I had in mind. Unlike that child innocence activist, you had no possible way to get all facts straight before getting emotional. If I’d call you dumb just based on this assumption, it would be incredibly stupid and I’d feel embarrassed for letting emotions win over reasoning.
Not to mention after realising I’d started to be aggressive without reason, and as a reaction on your explanation why you couldn’t possibly know that and after showing genuine interest to know more and understand it better when having a chance.
CupBeEmpty@reddit
Oh I read my kids a ton of OG fairytales.
I scared my 5 year old the other day by reading Little Orphant Annie by James Whitcomb Riley.
They see the Disney versions which are fine. However, I push the boundaries a bit. I think kids need to know life isn’t just rainbows and sunshine and stories with a nicely wrapped happy ending.
I was the same as a kid. My mom read a lot of darker tales. My dad let us watch movies that were a bit darker. They always gauged what we could handle but didn’t hold back if it was a good and meaningful story.
Newborn-Molerat@reddit (OP)
Finally the answer I hoped to ask for and apparently failed.
I hope you won’t mind me saying that you seem to be a perfect parental figure and role model others should strive to become. Understanding fairy tales are gruesome and ugly for a reason and are important for their world and reality awareness and sometimes, they can even (help) saving children when they get into dangerous situations (my own experience).
But also well aware of your kid’s feelings and not pushing something too brutal for them just because it felt ok in your childhood.
MrLongWalk@reddit
I’m curious what makes you think this is something people need to strive for?
Newborn-Molerat@reddit (OP)
Good question. As I said - personal experience. I grew up in pretty weird times after the fall of Eastern Block. Former criminals, secret police confidants and assholes of all kinds suddenly become our first elite, high society - people of enormous power, influence and money. Wealth earned by fraudulent trade with state property and obtained by tricking naive and economically illiterate people into giving them their savings for useless securities, frauds of a massive scale (it was more than half of the population if I remember correctly?) Pimps pimped celebrities in their decadent brothel palaces, police chief were also gangsters or paid by them. Students of chemistry cooked meth and sold around the world to earn for a study and black market gun traders, selling casually army weaponry of two armies, including explosives they bought for few vodkas and some cheap rings from drunken quartermasters. Now, also drunken, sitting every night on balcony drinking bottles of homemade moonshine and shooting to the air from AKMs or Sa vz.58 all night long. Mafias and organised crime gangs wanted to secure their position and power over this country - our strategic location was essential for any serious business. Soon, we were transit country for all kinds of trafficking from stolen cars to humans. And to make things even more interesting and fun, our newly elected democratic president, unjustly glorified idiot (or worse, bastard masked as human rights activist) ordered amnesty for all prisoners no matter why they were arrested. Releasing political prisoners, artists… murderers, deviants of the worst kind, army of pedophiles and sex offenders. They become hitmen for our elites, formed new violent extremist groups, robbed and killed few dozens of people, found their new territory in parks and forests waiting for people of all kind, age, gender, to be raped or sexually assaulted. And some entrepreneurs started their own business, kidnapping children and trafficking them abroad as a sex slaves.
I met my first pedophiles when I was 4 years old, two guys in old cars trying all usual tricks, offering all from expensive American chocolate bars to POGs and hockey collecting cards, following me and finally trying - not with real intentions thankfully- get me to their car. They couldn’t care less my mother was like 50m ahead of me but weren’t really committed. I knew from the very first moment who am I dealing with, scared to death but trying to figure out how to get quickly to safety (I couldn’t yell - fear sometimes do that). I am convinced not only parents’ usual “don’t go with strangers don’t take anything from them” wisdom got to work that day. but also my anxiety I felt listening to one of the pretty fucked up versions of Little Red Riding Hood, I guess, one regionally adjusted for war generation from Sudetenland, my grandparents. They needed to know their wolves, bears, rats… all zoo of vermins and ragtags.
I am definitely against this, trying to scare children to act careful by scarring them for life but still, I feel it was this fairytale that gave me clear warning I meet pedophiles and I need to get away quick because they mean suffering and death.
I remember guys and even women trying to lure children and I remember interfering when kid got caught on “your mama send me to pick you up” trick once, years later my friend almost broke up when pedo tried much bigger calibre “you mum owns me money come with me or I beat her.” I am lucky to keep thinking logical when in deep stress but still, maybe I should have brought them to my grand-grand oma and let that 90 years old lady to tell them her version of Red Riding Hood.
But it was definitely Nymph kidnapping kids from the Little Coal Man that triggered alarm when I myself was at the brink of getting soft and making my fatal mistake. Just half an hour after parents left, women came pretending to be in shock and with some sirup on the face as a blood tear. Pretending she had an accident, people were injured and she needed to enter house and call for help and family. Almost she got me and I failed. But nope, nobody can be trusted. It’s never just two fingers they wanted to warmup. She left but returned few minutes later, angry and frustrated, calling me names and kicking front door like crazy. Not hysterically because someone was in danger but angrily she failed to get inside and finished what she (and possibly her crime partners ?) intended. Much later occurred to me they might have been stalking us, observing house and waited for a perfect moment to get to action.
Later I developed strong street smart instinct but as a small child? Cute squirrels and other critters weren’t singing survival guides how to take care of themselves for children who are often alone, without mobiles or any way to call for immediate assistance. Just with keys, Pokemons, pogs and knife in a pockets and other kids. Hating each other but cooperating in danger. To find more understandable metaphor… Using these gen X, Y, Z… etc. groups, we are Millennials by age but based on description, we checked most boxes in Gen X column. We are like long lost tribe of Gen X, late for everything we felt related to : Nihilism not cool anymore, punk dead, Cobain dead, Grunge dead, Courtney Love not even close to be dead but getting close to get Miss Responsible Award. Placebo returned just to say they are not angry anymore but are buddhists full of inner peace and harmony… deal with it punks :D So we are loop watching Fight Club and peacefully waiting for Apocalypse world promised us and never delivered :D Struggling to take anything seriously as nothing feels like big enough deal to be worthy of all the energy. Or it is a big deal, massive even, way too big to be taken seriously.
MrLongWalk@reddit
I’m saying that what “people need to strive for” is extremely common already, despite what you seem to want to believe
MrLongWalk@reddit
I think you have a clear but inaccurate view of life here.
CupBeEmpty@reddit
Heh I would not say “perfect parental figure” by any stretch of the imagination.
That said I get it from my own parents. It’s not so much that it’s “dark” but just consuming bullshit cartoons and baby books is like only eating junk food.
You have to read something hard to digest every now and then. A dark story, something with a difficult theme. You can’t just force it on your kids but you can expose them to it.
You want them to be exposed to everything whether it’s a tragedy or a heroic epic but you know your kids better than anyone so you gauge what they are ready for.
IPreferDiamonds@reddit
Hey, Disney's Pinocchio is kind of scary!
MattWolf96@reddit
It is common knowledge that Disney adapts fairy tales.
My mom did read me some non-Disney versions, that said they were still very cleaned up from the original.
Newborn-Molerat@reddit (OP)
Thank you all for any informative responses related to this topic without getting emotional, angry/aggressive/offensive.
(Not only) for the rest of respondents: I should clarify - I don’t think this statement is true, I want to hear from you what is true.
I guess I unintentionally mess this up based on reactions.Let me apologise if you feel offended. I want to assure you it wasn’t my intention.
I just experienced so many mutually unrelated things (but related to Disney/folk tales misconceptions or missing knowledge) in such a short time and in occasions so different it made me curious and hungry for answers. Based on this, I suspect somewhere behind these questions, there might be hidden a crucial piece I miss in my more serious research. And the reason I struggle to understand some aspects of American way of seeing things - your perspective that I can’t possibly fully comprehend as I never lived in USA.
Anyway, let me please emphasise and better explain my last words: Nothing as insignificant as few posts, discussions or events I experienced can be used as a representation of a whole nation. Without further variables and constraints, they can’t even represent any group no matter how small or specific. It is just a proof of the individual’s ignorance, nothing else. Not even explaining reasons for this ignorance and therefore in the most neutral sense. They have no statistical value and using it for any generalisation is just plain stupid. No way they can represent 340mil people of various backgrounds and ethnicities, of all sort of social, educational and cultural origins, from countless regions with diverse historical development, united in federation of even today still significantly different states.
I hate quick and emotion based conclusions without rational reasoning and nothing is more irrational than making assumptions about ethnics and nations just based on few individual cases and without any actual facts or methodology.
Maybe letter limitation for questions, surely my idiotic style of asking, possibly in some cases even unfortunate but common social sites’ habit not to read more than first few words, just enough to get emotional, and ignore the rest of the text… i dont know. My fault no matter what, I should have been clearer to avoid any of this.
// Unfortunately, the first two questions are more like control questions (and therefore they sound stupid per se). And the last one is the most important for my research - most relevant to my interest but is too vague, obviously impossible to answer or understood straight away without additional discussion and explanation. Or otherwise wrong. So, definitely for someone with better explanation skills. And also less infuriating I suppose.
I just really struggle to understand how differently are fairytales perceived in USA compared to my own personal and very likely twisted view. How influential and important Disney factory may have (not) been in forming this view. And whether folk tales’ original purpose is still well established in people’s minds, or protective instincts (or anything else relevant) erased this knowledge. and if - and how much - Disney was significant in this process if ever happened. What purpose I have in mind? Fairy tales served and still serve as a strong warning and sometimes even lifesaving message in a form kids naturally understands. Scaring them enough to make them avoid as much dangerous actions leading to their death- or worse as possible.
IPreferDiamonds@reddit
So interesting that you asked this! I just found a cool youtube channel that delves into the origins of classic fairy tales and it is very interesting. The story of Jack and the Beanstalk is a couple thousand years old and has a different variations, but basically the same. And many other fairy tales are dark. Really interesting to research and watch videos about them all!
FlappyClap@reddit
No
Yes
Some of them are, most aren’t.
Sure
I’ll be honest, this sounds completely fabricated.
This is just an example of believing what appeals to biases.
Newborn-Molerat@reddit (OP)
Thank you for this systematic answering. Even though there is clearly some huge misunderstanding and confusion (and I blame myself for it). You helped me understand what a why cause this for me so far unfathomable and surprising strong reaction.
Trimyr@reddit
You shouldn't be downvoted, especially for thanking someone who took their time. Some of that may be linguistic differences in the direct tone from your previous posts, but it's an interesting way to question and look at how Americans grew up with these stories.
I read so much Greek, Congolese, Norse, Saxon, Indian, etc. mythology as a small kid (probably some stories aren't really 8-10 year old appropriate, but I just read everything I could find, and my relatives always gifted me books).
The 'Happily Ever After' idea is great for marketing, but most children (I had carte blanche to buy whatever I wanted from my school's book fairs) won't see the originals until later. 'Sleeping Beauty', for instance, is a nightmare. Even the Brothers Grimm rewrite is pretty grim.
FlappyClap@reddit
Answering your is a strong reaction?
Litzz11@reddit
I grew up reading Greek mythology as a child. My husband did, too. I also had the original Brothers Grimm stories and Aesop’s Fables.
Timmoleon@reddit
I would say it’s fairly common knowledge, but not universal. I was told this as a teenager, but it’s not taught in school or anything. Barnes & Noble has $6 collections of the fairy tales of Hans Christian Andersen and the Grimm Brothers, along with tales from Ireland, Africa, Persia, etc. Of course you can find them free online if their copyright is expired. I’m working my way through the Andersen tales now, and they are just as depressing as advertised.
Prestigious-Name-323@reddit
Yes of course we do. Just because the Disney versions are popular doesn’t mean that we aren’t aware that other versions exist.
pxystx89@reddit
Yea, we know.
I just don’t like to read kids stories about girls mutilating their own bodies in an attempt to marry a prince. Or that a step mother would be jealous enough of her step daughter to have her led into the woods to be brutally murdered.
yogafitter@reddit
Are you actually unaware that Disney has competitors and not every kids movie or book is from the Mouse corp?
sunny_6305@reddit
The Brothers Grimm and Hans Christian Anderson were banned by the Founding Fathers.
CupBeEmpty@reddit
Oh dang I have a couple books I need to toss.
Is the Bible still good or is that out too?!
NightOwlWraith@reddit
I think it's out, since we clearly can't have such lewd material in front of kids. Way too many close families in that book of fairy tales.
CupBeEmpty@reddit
Oh no it’s all true which is worse!
sureasyoureborn@reddit
I don’t know a single person who doesn’t know about the pre Disney fairy tales. But I do think we often talk about “fairy tales” as referring to the Disney versions.
Newborn-Molerat@reddit (OP)
Thanks. You got it right. And also it’s often Disney fairy tales internet search push our way and this makes this reference a little confusing and misleading.
cbrooks97@reddit
I'm sure there are some who think Disney invented Snow White. There are also some who think the moon is made of cheese. Most of us have read at least some of the Brothers Grimm.
hohner1@reddit
All fairy tales are adaptations. There is no copyright law on them and Disney has as much title to them as everyone else.
Curmudgy@reddit
Wikipedia notwithstanding, fairy tale doesn't necessarily mean a type of folk story or otherwise too old to be under copyright. Many dictionaries essentially define it as children's fantasy stories, which would include modern, original fairy tales, such as Peter Pan (whose original copyright expired last year).
ExistentialCrispies@reddit
Did you just seriously ask if Americans know that fairy tales exist if there's not a Disney movie about them? This sounded like a serious question to you?
NightOwlWraith@reddit
Technically, they asked if Canadians, Americans, and Mexicans knew about fairy tales.
They did say "North Americans".
Yankee_chef_nen@reddit
I took that to mean those of us from the northern states. Since I grew up in Maine I figured I could answer OP’s arrogant question.
Yankee_chef_nen@reddit
I’m not sure why you’re limiting your question to people from the northern states, but since I was born in Massachusetts and grew up in Maine I’m about as northern as an American can get.
I grew up with the Brothers Grimm, Russian folk/fairy tales, Just So Stories, Washington Irving, Greek Myth, Egyptian mythology, American Folk Lore, Pacific Northwest Native/Inuit Folk Lore as well as others. As I got older I read Celtic mythology, Norse mythology, African mythology, general European mythology, Arthurian legends, and I got deeper into the myths and stories I read in childhood.
My family was not a Disney family and I wasn’t exposed to the Disney versions until much later in my life.
I am a lore and history nerd, I love folk lore and old stories so I’ve known the darker than Disney versions as long as I can remember, but I’d never be so monumentally arrogant and condescending as to consider people without the same level of knowledge, those who have only been exposed to or prefer the Disney versions to be “painfully stupid”.
Bluemonogi@reddit
Many people in America who read books are likely aware that fairy tales exist outside of Disney adaptations. People who do not read books may not know or care that they are adaptions of classic stories.
I grew up with fairy tale books.
JennyPaints@reddit
Yes we do know that fairy tales predate Disney. There are tons of picture books for children retelling fairy tales from a variety of countries and sources. I had beautifully illustrated renditions of the Golden Cockrell, Puss and Boots, Rumplestiltdkin, The Princes and the Frog, and The Emporer Has No Clothes, -all by different authors and illustrators. Notice that Disney hasn't done any of those. And yet most Americans know all of them and many others.
Beyond picture books, many families, including mine, had one or more of Andrew Lang's fairy books. Translations of Hans Christian Anderson, and The Brothers Grimm are are also common. We had both.
My children also had fairy tale picture books and Andrew Lang. The school system introduced them to Ananzi so they got African stories too.
ChessedGamon@reddit
Yes, Americans know Disney didn't make fairy tales. They're retold a lot kinda by their nature so a lot of variations are present. Exceptions can be made for stories that aren't popular in the US to begin with. The Little Mermaid comes to mind here.
It's tricky to know if we're thinking of the same thing here, but it's fairly common knowledge that a lot of old fairy tales are a little fucky. They aren't the mainstream retellings you'll find though because... obviously.
Realistic-Regret-171@reddit
This. Centuries ago, these tales were actually intended to scare the shit out of kids to keep them from things they shouldn’t do - like wander off.
Joel_feila@reddit
So ye olde stranger danger
shelwood46@reddit
It's funny you said The Little Mermaid because I know we were required to read all the Hans Christian Andersen originals back in grade school, long before the movie was even thought of (we did watch a weird Danny Kaye movie about him too). We also did units on the original Grimm and Mother Goose stories, specifically talking about how the older versions were much gorier. This was maybe 5th grade?
jvc1011@reddit
I looooove Danny Kaye in Hans Christian Andersen. Except for the mandatory long dance. It’s such fun.
Joel_feila@reddit
Do we know they are based on older stories, yes we do. Do we read those versions, no not really.
Capable_Capybara@reddit
Some people don't read books. All they know is TV.
But I sincerely hope they are not the majority.
Showdown5618@reddit
Yes, most of us know classic fairy tales. The Disney versions are so popular that they tend to overshadow the classics, though.
There are books parents read to their children and movies that are closer to the classica. Before Disney's The Little Mermaid came out, my parents rented a The Little Mermaid animated movie. The main character is a blonde mermaid instead of a redhead, and she died at the end.
But there are people who may not know about the classics. When Disney's live action Mulan came out, many people were mad at the changes. Some even acted as if Disney invented Mulan.
Extension-Scarcity41@reddit
We do, but when you read things from Europe like the Grimms fairytales, they read as:
"There once was a little boy who loved to play in the woods, until one day when a wolf ate him. Moral of the story-never leave home".
mrpointyhorns@reddit
I think Tolkien said something like many children stories are originally for adults. But once adults have read them, the only ones left to read them and experience them new are children. So, a lot of stories for adults shift down in age.
Plus, culture shifts as well. Poe stories are supposed to be scary, but today, they're pretty tame. So then middle school kids can read them and not be afraid.
CupBeEmpty@reddit
Maybe I’m too young in my 40s but I always loved Poe. Never scared me too much but I was happy I read it. I wasn’t super young when I read him but young enough. It was kind of maturing experience.
DarthKnah@reddit
Most Americans are aware Disney did not invent these fairy tales, and many Americans are somewhat aware of the older versions, but I also think many Americans are not very familiar with them.
I have read the brothers Grimm, say, and I know plenty of other people who have, but it wasn’t part of my childhood, and I don’t know many people for whom it was a core part of their upbringing. I think most Americans have at least heard of the Grimms and Hans Christian Andersen, and many know at least some of the ways the stories differ, but I bet a third or fewer have actually read a significant portion of them.
No_Internet_4098@reddit
Most people in North America understand that the Disney movies are adaptations, yes. And yes, most of us have read other versions.
Avocadoavenger@reddit
I'm embarrassed for you and your country that you think this might be reality.
azuth89@reddit
Some do.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Pleased_Bees@reddit
Yes, we know the Grimm and Perrault and Andersen stories and the others too old to have authors' names or even collectors' names.
To answer your question, people's ideas about what's good for children have changed over time.
That's because our concept of children has changed.
NightOwlWraith@reddit
This is a strange question to me.
Of course we know about the original fairy tales, their countries of origin, and their themes.
I have a leatherbound copy of the Grimm Fairytales and the collected works of Hans Christian Andersen.
We learn about the original fairy tales in school and at home.
The only reason you see more discussion of Disney is because they are newer. Most discussions of the original tales have already been done ad nauseum. Also, Disney has an asinine marketing budget and probably has a hand in social media algorithms for their properties.
GenericUsername19892@reddit
Vaguely? I much preferred fables to fair tails when it comes to books, but watched all the Disney movies lol.
machagogo@reddit
Yes
Yes.
Disney ones are just more popular, in part because they are modern media. Bin part because Disney is great at marketing.
Quantoskord@reddit
Also because children’s- (and then adolescent-) marketed media is usually the most broadly-allowed and most broadly sought— for many adults, there's only so much time or care you can have to seek out movies and fictional stories.
SoftLast243@reddit
The Grimm Brothers were German and Hand Christian Anderson was Danish is common knowledge. I don’t think parents will tell their children the original endings to the stories since many have “dark” endings, by modern standards. Understand that the original fairy tales were from a different time period and cultures, making it necessary to change the stories to appeal for current standards of children’s stories. Besides, culture shifts throughout time, like how Disney hasn’t covered many fairy tales in the past 10 years.
tujelj@reddit
I love the old fairy tales and never much liked Disney movies, even as a kid. This is not to say I’m typical at all in that.
SteampunkExplorer@reddit
How could we possibly not know those things? 🫣
lexi2700@reddit
Yes we know the originals. Disney is just much more popular and kid friendly so it’s more widely seen and used.
Character-Twist-1409@reddit
Of course.
NaginiFay@reddit
I certainly did, but I had parents who loved to read, read to me, made sure I learned, always had a few hundred books in the house, and took me to the library frequently.
AvaSpelledBackwards2@reddit
I loved Grimm’s fairy tales as a kid, and I’d venture to say that most Americans likely understand that many of these Disney fairy tales were stories that have been told in different forms and across cultures prior to Disney. What you’re seeing is likely Disney adults being a loud minority online.
Salty_Dog2917@reddit
I would say most know about Grimms fairytales. I would guess most don’t read them, but we did have a shitty CW show called Grimm that went on for a decent amount of time.