Russia ramps up use of banned chemical weapons in Ukraine, including WWI-era poison gas, 3 European intel services say
Posted by GregWilson23@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 74 comments
showerbridge@reddit
International law is dumped down the drain... You can't complain about Russia's breaches of international law while you support Israel's breach of international laws.
Like Israel been using white phosphorus for so long that it is not even news anymore...
jadsf5@reddit
As the top comment says, there's not even actual evidence of Russia using chemical weapons.
But we sure do have evidence and proof of Israel using them.
WW3_doomer@reddit
They confirmed it and publish two separate reports on OPCW website.
ShowBoobsPls@reddit
It doesn't matter here. They need Russia to admit it because " the West is bad". The same thing happened with NK soldiers being sent to fight Ukraine
Dependent-Dream7180@reddit
Yup this sub is in a sorry state. Anything pro-RU is instantly taken as fact by the same 3-4 actors that make big long winded posts about how bad Ukraine is in every thread. That NK thing is just one of many things Russia blatantly lied about but everyone here just insists its the Western sources we can't believe because USA/Israel bad.
5wmotor@reddit
Israel also shot Flechette ammunition at Gaza City last war 10 years ago or so.
BendicantMias@reddit
Why are flechettes prohibited? In fact the wiki page says they aren't, but why are they even controversial? Sounds a lot less destructive than an explosive, and runs no risk of becoming unexploded ordinance killing people years later.
5wmotor@reddit
It’s a kind of cluster ammunition.
dontneedaknow@reddit
Where is the cluster bomb part?
5wmotor@reddit
I said ammunition. These flechettes are piece by piece but delivered by one warhead and then spread to cover a area.
So it’s indiscriminately hitting everyone in the radius.
dontneedaknow@reddit
All explosive devices do that.
The container becomes the same thing.
Have you seen the amount of tungsten that's in an anti aircraft missile?
nw342@reddit
it's nothing like cluster bombs, it just turns a tank into a 120+mm shot gun. Still awful to use against civilians.
pythonic_dude@reddit
Doesn't make it illegal. "Cluster bombs" are bad because due to their nature individual bomblets hit each other mid-flight, which renders some of them into duds. Which don't explode immediately, and just sit there inviting unsuspecting civilians or, worst and most likely case, kids, to pick the fancy plastic thing that looks like a weird toy. Flechette of any kind doesn't have this inherent quality of leaving explosive warcrimes for future generations, it's not any worse than just shrapnel.
Israel is conducting genocide in multple ways and employs a large number of tactics which are universally considered war crimes. There's no bloody need to make up any new ones, you just feed the zionist propaganda machine with material to "debunk" their opponents (because most of zionist propaganda isn't lies, it's pure facts carefully pulled out of context to present Israel as victims).
tightspandex@reddit
This is an absolutely insane thing to say.
There is a metric ton of evidence of russians using chemical weapons. I have personally experienced them using chemical weapons. I don't know a single soldier who hasn't experienced it either. I personally know people who have been killed because russia isn't just using irritants like CS.
imunfair@reddit
Usually when the articles are sensationalizing "banned chemical weapons" they mean tear gas, and we do have drone videos of that, but it's ridiculous that it's supposedly banned for military use but we happily use it on our civilian population.
dolphin_master_race@reddit
It's banned primarily because it can be mistaken for lethal gas and invite retaliatory attacks. There is no danger that civilians will retaliate with sarin or novichok.
AlexanderTheIronFist@reddit
Not only that. I distinctly remember watching videos of Ukrainians using poison gas against Russian soldiers one or two years ago, even.
Plethorum@reddit
It is very typical of this sub that, on a post about russia using banned chemical weapons, the top comment is essentially: "but what about israel?"
It is true that if one condemns russia's use of illegal weapons one should also condemn it when israel does it, but it goes the other way as well. Yet, I rarely see people in this subreddit jump to point out russia's violation of international law on posts about israel/Palestine.
This comment just reads as a poor attempt to distract from another one of russia's many war crimes
tissuebandit46@reddit
It's pointing out the hypocrisy of western media
Russia doing somthing = bad
Isreal doing the same thing = good
Plethorum@reddit
Most western media I consume is also critical of israel. The line between pointing out (alleged) hypocricy and russian apologism is very blurred, allowing for pro-russian (and therefore anti-Ukraine) to hide behind this argument.
Not saying this extends to you, but it is very suspicious that this subreddit is so concerned with hypocricy compared to russian warcrimes that they feel the need to point it out on almost every post related to russia
jizmatik@reddit
It truly is amazing to see the Middle East propaganda machine work so well in tandem with Russia. These useful idiots do not realise they are complicit in spreading further hatred by protesting about the atrocities happening on only one side. It was okay when Hamas kicked this all off again, but it’s not okay to realise that Israel is playing a 0sum game that resets every time the ceasefire is violated by Hamas/Palestine.
I am devastated at what’s happening over there but the anti Israel and nazi comparisons is audaciously offensive. It’s a rhetoric I’m seeing pumped out in almost every comment.
Can’t you guys see you’re being played???
BendicantMias@reddit
Frankly this subreddit is obssessed with Israel and Russia in general not cos of its members, but cos of Rule 2.3 preventing any posts about the US, China and India. So of course all the posts then default to the remaining most popular / controversial issues of the day - Ukraine war and Gaza war. Few people are interested in the happenings in, say, Peru. Imo Rule 2.3 should either be junked or, if you're truly against the sub being inundated with a certain topic, then extended to Russia and Israel as well. At which point this place probably loses most of its appeal for most of its membership, since all their favorite topics will be gone.
merc08@reddit
You missed the point entirely. The comment you replied to isn't complaining about the frequency of the 2 major wars being posted. It's pointing out that whenever Russia is mentioned in a negative light accounts rush to point out how Israel is doing similar things. But when Israel is highlighted for something bad, there isn't a surge of whataboutism regarding Russia.
Makes it look like the sun is saturated with pro-Russian supporters or bots.
AmarantaRWS@reddit
Plethorum@reddit
Lol, the news have reported on whata going on in gaza for a long ass time. What massive campaign, is this an american thing?
dontneedaknow@reddit
Newsflash!
Morality is relative...
re_carn@reddit
And what's wrong with that? Saying something about Russia violating international law and turning a blind eye to Israel violating the same law is called double standards. The law either applies to everyone, or you don't even have to bring it up.
Oh, poor Israel. It's merely supported by Europe, America, Canada, Australia, etc. But here's the lack of support from the rank and file Reddit commenters is heartbreaking for Netanyahu.... /s
You know what's ironic? That the same could be said of your comment.
Plethorum@reddit
It distracts from the current topic (related to russian war crimes). That is what is wrong with whataboutism.
It does. Nobody here is disputing that (though it appears you do by jumping to defend russia at every turn).
You paint every western media outlet as a single caricature, probably because it is easier to argue against straw men. There are many western mainstream media outlets that are very critical towards israel.
BendicantMias@reddit
Note that whataboutism itself is a term that was popularized in order to deflect accusations of hypocrisy and double standards. Which are valid callouts. To dismiss them with that term just defends and preserves said hypocrisy and double standards. Indeed the wiki page for it has an entire section dedication to criticisms of its usage - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism#Defense
loggy_sci@reddit
You care more about double standards than you do about the use of chemical and banned weapons by Russia. You don’t care that Russia does it, and you bring up Israel to deflect from criticizing Russia. You are one of the biggest pro-Russian agenda posters in this sub.
BendicantMias@reddit
Funny, considering I haven't posted much about Russia to begin with. Been posting about AI instead -
Also an ironic accusation coming from you, who's one of the most frequent promoters and/or defender of the west in this sub.
dontneedaknow@reddit
How would you know those things if you dont post much...
BendicantMias@reddit
Cute. But he made the accusation first, yet tellingly you didn't ask him that question. That inherently speaks to your bias.
Plethorum@reddit
Sure, calling out whataboutism does not invalidate ones argument of hypocricy. However, it light help prevent the objective of using whataboutism, which is to distract from the current topic.
In almost every thread about russian warcrimes there are people trying to deflect from people criticizing and, knowing there are a lot of trolls/bots from russia trying to influence public opinion on this topic, I feel it is worth to point it out
re_carn@reddit
Whataboutism does not invalidate double standards towards Israel and Russia. “International law” must be applied equally, otherwise it is simply the right of the strong.
If it were applied, Israel would now be sitting under the same set of sanctions as Russia.
Ironic that you're talking about a strawman now, considering it wasn't about media outlets at all. It's about politicians who approve of war crimes, ethnic cleansing, genocide, bombing, etc., if they are carried out by Israel. But at the same time, on every occasion,n the cry is raised that “it's time to put more sanctions on Russia!” (although, imho, it would be hard for them to think of anything else to restrict Russia without hurting themselves).
Plethorum@reddit
Many western entities, including politicians, are very critical of israel, and many also use the term "genocide". So your claim of "double standards" is situational at best.
Moreover, international law applies to both israel and russia. The UN issued a report on genocide accusations against israel stating that there were "reasonable grounds to believe that the threshold indicating the commission" of acts of genocide had been met. As far as I know, russia has not been investigated by the UN for similar charges. So this is an example of double standards in the opposite direction.
Israel is bad and deserves to be sanctioned, but so does russia.
One genocide does not excuse the other
ReturnPresent9306@reddit
But have you considered... West bad, auth daddy good?
re_carn@reddit
No. Do you have anything to say about that?
ReturnPresent9306@reddit
Yes, obviously West is the Great Satan!
re_carn@reddit
That's an interesting opinion you have. I have a simpler one: the West lost its legitimacy to decide what is right and wrong when it supported Israel.
re_carn@reddit
Yes, of course - a few politicians are against it and they will debate the issue until there is no subject left to debate.
And what are the results? Israel must have been sanctioned? Banned banks from making transactions? Restricted trade? Anything else?
Absolutely. But it's not going to happen, and you know that.
dontneedaknow@reddit
This whataboutism is stupid and tiring.
And I agree with you.
But there's one cause that thinks being annoying as fuck about the topic will gain peoples sympathy.
And you aren't doing them favors.
It's not gonna affect Palestinians in anyway if I did I didn't have to read a "whatabout palestine" in every thread.
There are more effective ways to do online campaigning.
Also Russia went into this war denying the existence of ukraine and ukrainians.
Also notions of international law are eurocentric and european imposed. Not everyone is signatory, and only the ones that lose a conflict end up being held anyways.
showerbridge@reddit
I am talking about the material reality, about what will happen in the future.
You cant just close your eyes and think this is not real..
Reddit is not protesting... please don't think it is. This is just a debating platform, talking to a void.
dontneedaknow@reddit
Yea, in a comment section for a news article about Russia...
Who said anything about whats real and whats not...?
Who said reddit was a protest..?
showerbridge@reddit
Its as of the world is interconnected
Dirkdeking@reddit
White phosphorus is one of those iffy substances. The US (and allies?) also used then in Iraq for incendiary purposes. The weapon definitely doesn't fall into the same category as sarin.
showerbridge@reddit
I wrote in an earlier comment that it depends on how you use it... using it in high populated areas against civilians are illegal... And yeah US/EU/israel all have been enjoying using it against civilians.... and of course they all did not have any other choise
callmejellydog@reddit
Change the record man
loggy_sci@reddit
Why are you running interference on Russias use of chemical weapons and trying to change the narrative to focus on Israel and the west? Nobody should be using these things. Russia is wrong for using them, but you don’t bother to mention that…
re_carn@reddit
As long as Israel is allowed to carry out genocide, any attempt to invoke “international law” is null and void. That's all.
loggy_sci@reddit
The international convention on chemical weapons is one that Russia itself signed. Russia signed an agreement and then broke it, and they aren’t using the weak excuse of “b…b…but Israel is doing it!!!”like they are toddlers.
Also nobody is talking about international law except the person who immediately came in saying it was meaningless.
You agenda posters rush into everything thread about Russia doing something evil and start excusing it. It’s pathetic.
re_carn@reddit
Where did you see anyone making excuses for Russia? Russia was justly punished, but that doesn't change the double standard and the “West's” support for the genocide carried out by Israel. So I repeat - when all the sanctions that were imposed on Russia are imposed on Israel - we can talk about some kind of “international law”. Until then, it is an empty term used by hypocrites.
No, the only thing that looks pathetic is your attempts to prove that it's different in the case of Israel.
BendicantMias@reddit
Israel is wrong for using them, but you don't bother to punish them...
Here's an idea - why don't you shut down such arguments by, you know, not being giant hypocrites?
loggy_sci@reddit
Why do you talk to people like they personally control the things their governments do? It’s so fucking weird.
I would stop Israel using them if I could. Meanwhile you make excuses for Russia like it’s your job…
BendicantMias@reddit
Bub you're constantly promoting or defending the wests' actions. Meanwhile I've posted more on AI here than about either Israel or Russia. So who's the one more focused on their propagandistic 'job'? Cos it ain't me.
loggy_sci@reddit
I’m not defending the wests actions. I just think you’re disingenuous and here to defend authoritarians and their violence because you think ‘the west‘ should be punished. You’re so transparent it’s almost joke.
showerbridge@reddit
Bro let me explain it to an American.
An American cop is seeing two men doing a crime... One is black and one is white... What does the cop do? He lets the white go, and shoots the black.
So do you think this is fair? No, but black people have no power to change a white supremacist structure.
The difference is that in international politics, everyone else is looking and they have power, if they decide to say "this international law is problematic for what we are about to do", and then they begin to violate it. Do you think the words of the west are worth anything? It's not. No one will care what the west says, and this will destroy our power in the future.
The current state of the world is basically USA can be do whatever they want but everyone else have to follow the law... And that is what everyone agreed on, but now Israel is doing whatever they want, and the west is supporting it.
ShowBoobsPls@reddit
White phosphorus isn't banned
showerbridge@reddit
It depends on how you use it, you are not allowed to use it in populated area... the entire gaza strip is a populated area.... i swear europeans are so soulless, like imagine your parents or siblings having white phosphorus thrown on them, it burning through their bodies and you do not have clean water to rinse it while you remove the white phosphorus.
There is nothing more illegal than an european interpreting laws
pythonic_dude@reddit
Dumb bombs are not the problem, the lack of guidance kits doesn't matter when your target is an immobile apartment building or a hospital and you have state of the art guidance assist in your HUD. Plus no risks whatsoever, so can fly at whatever altitude and speed is optimal, those apartment buildings and hospitals aren't going to shoot at you after all.
The most moral military in the world has to use the most moral ways to strike at civilians and make the survivors fuck off the land they want to occupy full time, after all.
BendicantMias@reddit
I don't get why a riot control chemical that's regularly used on civilians all over the world is somehow prohibited for use against soldiers. Like what? That just sounds completely backwards. Aren't civilians supposed to have more protections?
pythonic_dude@reddit
It's not about protecting the soldiers, it never is. All the regulations and conventions are only there to prevent unwanted escalations, make things more convenient, or to virtue signal while banning something nobody wanted to use anyway. Nuclear treaties aren't there because we got afraid of MAD, but because it was already achieved and it was decided it was economically sound to not try to outkill enemy's stockpiles in first strike. Missile range treaties don't mean shit for private John Schmuck, they are so that you don't have to call Kremlin every time saying "hi volodya, we aren't trying to nuke you, just doing superpower shenanigans in our sandbox", because limited range ballistics won't reach your strategic enemy. Chemicals aren't prohibited because we suddenly became humane, but because they are hard to use without compromising your own troops and really most of the time they are good you can just declare your opponent a terrorist and gas them anyway. We didn't ban explosive bullets because they are inhumane, but because they are too expensive to use on personnel (they are still around for anti materiel duty, and ofc used against people when convenient) - and we "banned" full lead rounds and hollow points because they gunk up rifling with lead and have fuck all barrier penetration so they aren't convenient. We don't like soldiers faking surrender because then everyone, everywhere will be shooting those surrendering without waiting for it, and that's worse for morale and discipline than a guy in your squad dying to anthrax. We are trying to ban mines because they become a hindrance for our own troops later, except of course if we just want to mine the fuck out of borders (hi Baltic), then we don't want no treaties. I don't remember if flamethrowers are banned in any way, but we don't want them because they are inconvenient and vulnerable, and their actual job is done perfectly fine by thermobarics and white phosphorus - as you can guess, neither is actually banned.
ReturnPresent9306@reddit
Yeah, people moralizing has become so fucking tiresome.
Joezev98@reddit
Googling the question got me to this post. The TL/DR is: tear gas is not that terrible, but when used in war, it's more likely to evoke a response with far worse chemicals.
VintageGriffin@reddit
It's been what, three years? And nobody bothered to request that investigation yet? Could it mean that whatever they're saying now about chemical agent usage wasn't actually the case?
You have an established convention and a watchdog that does the monitoring and investigation. Use it to prove your allegations. It was created, and has been siphoning your tax dollars all these years for this exact purpose.
Apparently the usage has had the time to establish itself, and become "standardized and commonplace" - but nobody saw it fit to to do an official investigation and produce any actual evidence. How does that work?
But don't let any of the above get in the way of a good narrative.
WW3_doomer@reddit
First, you request evaluation. Ukraine did it, first team from OPCW landed in Ukraine spring 2024, and presented finding in November that year. After that there was additional technical evaluation visits.
Second, their findings confirmed use of chemical weapons.
VintageGriffin@reddit
The article does not mention any of that, and I'm just a statistically average headlines surfing citizen too dumb to seek alternative sources or additional information.
Could it be that whoever wrote the article didn't know about this either? What business do they have in writing articles about these things then?
loggy_sci@reddit
The tests have confirmed that chemical weapons were used. You support Russia and make excuses for their crimes, and so you insinuate that this is all a hoax without offering a single shred of evidence, per usual.
This sub needs to get better about people like you who agenda post in here about Russia.
VintageGriffin@reddit
Neither does the article. I'm just commenting on what I'm reading.
softwarebuyer2015@reddit
Great break down.
Sadly these allegedly independent bodies are long since captured, either directly or indirectly.
Kaymish_@reddit
The OPCW burned up all their credibility after their antics in Syria. British white helmets hand over chemical weapons to anti-government rebels. Rebels use them. OPCW report used to blame it on the government despite it being a British backed operation.
VintageGriffin@reddit
I agree, just about all of the international organizations are joined at the hip with the people that fund them. Grossi asking Iran to urgently allow the investigation of their nuclear facilities immediately after Israel's attack alone was a genuine WTF moment. Show us what you have and where at this very moment, so we can make sure "it's safe". Your secrets will be safe with us, pinky promise.
But by using parts of the so-called "international law" machine that they themselves have established, they could at least have pretended to have some semblance of credibility or doing due diligence, rather than making claims not backed up by anything other than words from anonymous sources and organizations.
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