Collapse Arks - A Casual Friday Idea for the future.
Posted by Rhonin25@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 30 comments
Dear readers and members on this sub, hi!
I'll try to keep this fairly short and to the point, still I hope y'all are doing okay.
In recent months my mind often circled around the thought "How will the future look like?"
Perhaps fairly obviously, the answer I generally come up with is: "Pretty freaking bad"
When looking at a human timescale and not a geological one (So decades maybe a few centuries, instead of tens of thousands of years), the negatives are readily apparent.
Long-term change of the energy balance of the earth, caused by decades and centuries of industrial activity and carbon emissions.
Degradation of soil and the bio-sphere in general, massive loss of species diversity, depletion of resources, envirormental pollution, melting of glaciers and the polar ice a few more things.
Add on to that the inherent instabilities of a global industralized, mostly capitalistic civilization that relies on growth-based economics, resource extraction and exploitation of a global scale, to sort of kinda function.
With these things interacting with each other; societies, political institutions, militaries, individuals and communities all caught up in a whirlpool of downward trends and a world that is ever more likely to produce conflict and very potentially violence.
Mind you dear reader, I'm writing from Germany, a country in the "global north" so forgive me if my timeline seems overly... conservative? I realize that there are already many people today bearing the terrifying brunt of conflict and the ravages of the climate crisis.
Ultimately the year that always stood out to me would be 2050, mostly because it just seems like a very neat number, middle of the century, with a fair few projections tied to that arbitrary year. However I very much believe that a lot of undeniable stages of collapse could be seen in the year 2040 already.
In terms of temperature as talked about of, the global average measured against a early industrial base-line, where we are fairly solidly at 1.5-1.6° C, from my feeling would proceed to hit 2° C by the mid of the 2030's and then be around 2.7-2.8° C at 2050. Of course this is mostly a gut feeling trying to put a number to a lot of these unprecedented developements.
However, this is just preamble. My core idea I wanted to present is something more specific. When looking at this timeline that would roughly equate to one "generation" 25 years where decisions are still sort of possible and just dictated by an almost primal contest for survival.
When browsing around so to say, for what a person might do to prepare, it's fairly inevitable to come across various ideas ranging from real life prepping, billionaire bunkers, institutionalized preservation strategies and concepts from fiction, Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" as a prominent example.
What coalesced in my mind from these ideas is the concept of Arks. Not a terribly creative name, but ultimately fitting. So... what do I mean by Arks?
Ark - Projects to me would present a truly honest attempt of giving a "group" of people a shot of surviving the chaotic transformations of the 21st century, a shot of preserving valueable human knowledge, a chance to re-emerge into a world that would most likely by unrecognizable in terms of borders and climate, and first and fore-most a chance to live a life that is sustainable, and uses the lessons we as a species have collectively gathered over the centuries, to build a society from the ground up, hopefully thus safe-guarding it from a fair few of the pitfalls we have also encountered: (Authoritanism of a owner/elite Class, violent nationalism/identity, unfettered use of the natural world etc...)
However the kicker with all of this is of course... Funding and the dilemna of an Ark, namely: not everyone gets to board. I'm imagining a project where a nation perhaps funds the creation such "collapse-proofed" communities in favorable locations, with maybe a central urban hub, where limited manufacturing, scientific monotoring, education and planning takes place. Of course such a urban space would be designed around public transport, walkable infrastructure and be connected via trams to surrounding agricultural communities, like spokes on a wheel.
The core goal would be to create a way of living for hopefully tens of thousands of people, that makes due with a lot less energy consumed than the regular modern, western lifestyle. And that energy would be provided to at least 90% from renewables, solar and wind (a fair bit of Solarpunk inspiration, I apologize).
Of course in my reflection I realize the weakness of this quite fanciful fantasy. A government would never fund a project like this, that actively questions the continued existance of our current systems, people would probably be reviled by the idea of a "chosen few" getting to live in a utopia, if the chaos of collapse happens, an Ark would even in a best case scenario would have to somehow survive a potential military attack, coups and untold numbers of refugees would identify such a place as a better bet than somewhere else.
However I wanted to find a little hope and solace in imagining something like this, because ultimately I still am a humanist. I care. I know that's not much, but yeah.
And I'd always think, if collectively we don't manage to build something that is worth saving, that truly acknowledges the sheer scale of our fuck-ups, and gives people are real chance, the alternatives are just so bleak. Either humanity and most life on earth just goes in the dark, unlikely to return, or an apocalyptical chaos would just give way to the wheel starting over. For example should people somehow survive, with so much gone in like 2060, what would stop them from looking to the burning of fossil fuel as their salvation, to regain electricity, do farming and defend oneself etc...?
So yes, this was something I wanted to write out, even if it's most likely very rambly and rough. Thank you everyone that maybe have read parts of this, I'd love to maybe discuss a little further in the comments.
Until then, I hope y'all still manage to find a little happiness in life and be safe <3
tl;dr: In this I outline the concept of Collapse-proofed arks, basically Solarpunk inspired large communities that would function independently (city and surrounding farming villages), and would try to preserve a solid chunk of genetic and cultural diversity in it's population, scientific knowledge, provide sustainable medical care, food production, education etc. (the pillars of civiliation) while being centered around a egalitarian philosophy of communal ownership and responsibilty. All funded in the next few years to get off the ground as a public attempt at dealing with collapse.
jbond23@reddit
Coming from Rural England my image of this is Downton Abbey or Versailles. A fiefdom of one of the massive country estates. With a support structure of 1000 to 10,000 people in a group of villages. Almost self sufficient. Trading with related and surrounding fiefdoms. But where? It also needs a survivable climate and fresh water. North Scotland? Norway?
Over time, the successful fiefdoms would consolidate into city states. And before you knew it, we'd have Westphalian Nation states again.
DancesWithBeowulf@reddit
The problem causing collapse appears to be intelligence. At least, enough intelligence to cause complete havoc but not enough to prevent it.
Intelligence may very well not be a good survival trait over the long run. Throughout the universe, it may have led, in every case so far, to collapse of the intelligent species’ biosphere and reduced habitability of their planet. This may be why we seem to be alone.
Arks like yours would only prolong and preserve the ultimate cause of collapse: us. I get the sentiment of preservation. I do. But what happens when humanity steps out of the arks and starts living on the land again? What prevents the superpredator cycle from repeating again? Humans are too good at doing what all life tries to do— reproduce, expand, and consume.
I’m glad I exist. I think everyone who does exist should have a chance at a good life. I don’t advocate for culling the human race. But I also honestly believe the planet would be better off if we happened to not be here. If humanity’s actions lead to its own demise, the earth will move on, its creatures evolve, and a new biosphere will eventually fill the wastes we left behind. And I’m ok with that.
Rhonin25@reddit (OP)
That is an existantial question that sits at the core of this. Do we accept that we are an imperfect product of evolution that had a really lucky and very sucessful run, that ultimately ends in failure, or do we try to apply the lessons we are seemingly capable of learning and hope overcome even our own short-comings?
Ultimately the issue my idea also tries to adress is generational justice. It feels unjust to not at least imagine a world where the people living after my own lifetime get to have a reasonable shot at stuff. Even they are not "my" children, it feels to me that they at least deserve a chance. Our current world is doing a lot to deprive future generations of that, so I wanted to come up with something that at least tries.
phred14@reddit
Personally I believe that while we're imperfect, we can become better, we can do better. One could look at that as one end of a distribution, and the other end of that distribution is largely responsible for the problems we're now having. What you're really saying is that if we could preserve some people from "the good side" then they might have a chance at crafting a sustainable civilization. I happen to agree.
You use the term Ark, I look to the Arcology in "Oath of Fealty" by Niven/Pournelle. They saw their arcology as an "Earthbound starship" where they could iron out the biological, environmental, and psychological problems of a starship in a more learning-safe environment. Really, in a worst possible collapse situation, Earth is still the most habitable place we know of, even if it has to be in a sealed can - like a starship. Solar radiation is right, gravity is right, and at least there's an atmosphere out there, even if you had to do fractional distillation to get the parts you need.
I see the bigger problem being petty warlords with lots of guns that want what you have.
AstronautLife5949@reddit
Why on earth (lol) would we want to spread life?
Fit-Version-683@reddit
We live in a small rural community in the south of spain. A series of small villages spead over 40km in the mountains. There is a very strong traditional way of life,with a focus on small hold farming and preserving old school systems for doing things. We also have a large collection of limestone caves underneath many of the villages and excellent sources of water, rare now in this area of the world. When we moved here 15 years ago we joked about it ticking all the boxes for surviving the apocalypse, unfortunately now, after the pandemic and the increasing climate problems ,we are now realizing this may truelly be the case. I think that the most likely version of your arks will be areas like this. The one thing we need is a way to preserve art, music, literature and important science to pass on to future generations . My personal library can only cover so much. All in all we can but keep passing ideas around and hope that maybe the general idiocy will not win out.
Zestyclose-Ad-9420@reddit
Whats a local town i would recognise. I lived inbetween cordoba and granada
lesenum@reddit
very interesting, is there more about your community on the web to read?
Rhonin25@reddit (OP)
Submission Statement: In this I outline the concept of Collapse-proofed arks, basically Solarpunk inspired large communities that would function independently (city and surrounding farming villages), and would try to preserve a solid chunk of genetic and cultural diversity in it's population, scientific knowledge, provide sustainable medical care, food production, education etc. (the pillars of civiliation) while being centered around a egalitarian philosophy of communal ownership and responsibilty. All funded in the next few years to get off the ground as a public attempt at dealing with collapse.
Fox_Kurama@reddit
Unfortunately, even assuming we can build long lasting, fully functional arks like described, their capacity would be limited. And there would be a lot of people who are starving and otherwise lacking who will want to take what they can, with no thoughts beyond surviving the immediate present and future. People with weapons or who control weapons that can and will cause damage to the arks. People who won't be familiar with how to maintain the arks, should they try to basically just take over as the new residents of them instead of looting and moving on.
If you are familiar with the Sea People of the bronze age collapse, then this will be basically the modern equivalent of them.
Assuming such arks are possible at all for any meaningful length of time from a tech perspective, they need to be built secretly and in as remote and inconvenient a location as possible. During the bronze age collapse, the cities basically all burned, and it was remote places up in the mountains where people gathered to form primitive villages to restart. This was because the sea people were raiders basically using all the still-surviving bronze age trade and military ships to sail around raiding the coast and each other following the sudden collapse. Once the initial targets available for looting, foraging, and scavenging were gone, they just were too few in number and too lacking in equipment that could be used to go searching mountainous regions for more people to pillage, and ships are not very good at climbing mountains (citation needed). Additionally, during this collapse, Egypt was hit a bit less hard because the Nile's regular flooding kept their soils good, so even if they were getting raided to the point of having almost no functional remaining military, the people living there could at least still grow food, and the raiders who knew of this would probably see it as better to just risk death while continually raiding Egypt instead of risking death by abandoning their ships and wandering into the mountains in hopes that some rumor they heard about mountain villages being true.
tsyhanka@reddit
your scenario imagines a very specific human culture "surviving" - one that resembles what we'd call "civilization", and specifically (because of the energy/tech) an industrial one. after 30 years, the "renewables" would start to perform poorly, and you'd need fossil fuels for upkeep/replacement, but ff will become inaccessible. more generally, the model of urban center + agricultural periphery doesn't ever last for long. its metabolism is too high. we see this in past examples at a regional scale, and it's now playing out at a global scale
if we want to imagine humans surviving the demise of this current system and whose cultures actually reflect the lessons learned from our mistakes, the most realistic "characters" for such a scenario are the relatively-uncontacted tribes who are the least invested in the thing that's self-destructing
jaymickef@reddit
There was a tv show in the 1970s called Starlost (based on an idea by Harlan Ellison) that was essentially pods-in-space. The twist was that the ship of pods has been in an accident and gone off course and the pods have not had contact with each other for centuries so they don’t even know they are in space.
Cease-the-means@reddit
Makes me think of Pandorum. Crew of a colony ship wake up thousands of years later than they should have arrived.
Rhonin25@reddit (OP)
That makes me think that the name of Arks might be a misnomer. My idea is pretty ground-based, the cities and communities would be considered the ark in my idea, not any ship that tries to get away from stuff (we only got our one spaceship earth, hurtling around the sun ^^ )
Cease-the-means@reddit
Personally I think the best that could be done for future human survivors would be to preserve data/knowledge in a way that will last a very long time and still be accessible. In order make it through an extinction bottleneck humans may have to revert to the most basic, animalistic ways of living. For example RNA analysis suggests that the entire modern human population is descended from less than 1000 individuals who survived through an ice age. In such a situation no one will be thinking about preserving knowledge or technology or anything beyond staying alive by any means. So such an ark would need to be something that primitive people could find and understand.
So things like:
Ideally... Extremely robust/redundant electronic devices that preserve data, placed in remote, very dry, high altitude locations where nothing will happen to them for millennia. Various kinds of power sources that won't degrade over such a long time and still be able to power the thing up would be the major challenge.
Maybe satellites designed for maximum longevity that contain the sum total of human knowledge. They could have blinking lights/lasers/reflectors that transmit a stream of first mathematical sequences then language data, then scientific principles. A civilisation like the ancient Greeks could figure that out and eventually discover that there is a radio up/down link too.
Perhaps data encoded into DNA in a self replicating way in multiple species. This could only be advanced stuff and history because future humans would need to develop understanding of genetics to access it.
Physical, indestructible, records of things. Like a full map of the world or a Rosetta Stone for all known languages and mathematical conventions, or detailed diagrams of all the chemical elements and their properties, or drawings of basic machines and electrical systems.
Basically stuff that will just wait until any surviving humans, or indeed another species, reach the point where they can once again ask "What does that mean?". At the very least an alien civilization may find a record of our stupidity.
AstronautLife5949@reddit
I'm fine with us going extinct. We are not good. Look where we have ended up because of us.
PlausiblyCoincident@reddit
I've had similar ideas, but not state-sponsored, and not cities. Think more like a decentralized network of independent, yet loosely-affiliated, villages that can share information over long distances using radio, and resources over shorter distances. The communities would need to be predominantly agrarian and rely on a technology level comparable to an early industrial ara, because required materials and components to repair or replace worn out equipment may not be acquirable or produciable. Electric power generation may become impossible at some point at a community level. Because of the increasing unpredictability of weather events from here on out, (also the unpredictability of social unrest) which community survives the collapse process long enough to become a larger civilization in its own right after, or maybe if, things stabilize enough to allow that kind of growth, and therefore what cultural values, bits of knowledge, or artistic works survive will be a matter of chance.
And that survival only happens if the community has the right people with the right mindsets and community-oriented values to see it come through struggle after struggle after struggle. The material component is only one part, same with the physical infrastructure, but the most important part to determining whether a community can thrive in adversity is its people.
As a side note, I've never gone in for the whole Solarpunk concept. It's always struck me more as fantasy that sees the end of a production chain and calls it "clean" or "green" without recognizing the beginning of those supply chains are still acting counter to the ideal its supposed to be supporting and at a magnitude that is still continuing the problem that "clean" power is supposed to solve. Better to create societies that don't need more than can be relied on in their immediate surroundings than societies that need to rely on photovoltaic cells or that will still need to be replaced in 20-30 years or transformers with electronic components that need long ranging supply chains and special technical knowledge to be produced.
hauntedhettie@reddit
I can’t speak to the practical application of these ideas, but I’ve been having dreams for over a decade of being in these underground public-spaces with complete strangers who I seem to be very close to. I didn’t get the impression you couldn’t go outside, in a lot of ways these underground areas are still somewhat open-air, it was more that towns had adopted large subterranean additions to stay temperature controlled and buffered from extreme weather. Almost like a return to cave dwelling, only we made the caves. Public spaces were built as thru-ways under hills, like underpasses almost with dwellings off the main tunnel. One dream we were in a series of communal dwellings that looked like underground silos, each apartment being within a cylinder with a sort of grate-like floor, under which our water was stored which also cooled the space through evaporation. I know this is all verging on the metaphysical and maybe not what you’re looking for, but I find it unusual and interesting to say the least, especially the construction elements (the water under the floor for example, how’d my unconscious mind devise that detail 🤔). I’ve considered what it would actually take over the next couple decades to apply for grants to build some kind of experimental subterranean housing project in my community. Be that nut job who seems like Nostradamus after a time 😂 In my opinion bunkers, like the gated communities of the last several decades, have a fatal flaw: isolationism is expensive and unsustainable. These were highly communal, open-concept “cities”, it kind of felt like entire cities operating like city cooling centers do now, open to all in need, geo-engineered to not need traditional heating or cooling. The foundation of all the designs was passive cooling. Nobody seemed to care about things like interior design in the way they do now, though the cities were cool to look at. Just not a priority for my dream folks.
lesenum@reddit
This is too wordy...a 3 or 4 paragraph expansion of your tl;dr would have been better. I'm not criticizing your content though and like the idea of "Collapse Arks". I imagine more a monastic entity though that tries to preserve civilization in small way in a Collapsing World. In the US we're sliding so quickly into a Mad Max Hellscape it's astonishing...something's got to be done to save some semblance of decency and normal life. My own imaginings about that are at https://alphistian.blogspot.com/?view=flipcard
Rhonin25@reddit (OP)
That's okay ^^ It was part of why I posted this on friday. And thank you for giving it a little read.
lesenum@reddit
absolutely :)
rdwpin@reddit
It would be very difficult to survive, but of course bunkers will be built. The heat is what will kill us, other animals, and crops, while the ocean's acidity will kill off shell based ocean life and collapse ocean life.
So protectiing crops from the heat while also giving them necessary exposure to sunlight would be the challenge to survive. Doesn't seem long term survivable but people will do it until the crops fail. Maybe they can find some stuff that can survive the heat while they spend most of their time walled off from the atmosphere.
The heat will not lessen to any appreciable degree for centuries (CO2 weathering). I don't know how that might affect rain in a given location but they and their crops would need to survive random prolonged drought. So they will look for a location near running water but above flood level. All of this predicated on people not believing that CO2 and other carbon gases like methane turn the Earth into a hothouse too hot for much of current animal and plant life to survive. I guess they'll have to see it to believe it.
Rhonin25@reddit (OP)
I have the faint and probably unfounded hope that the climate would sort of... "bounce back", if global civilization would truly kick the bucket and a lot less people would be on earth. Area's regreening, soil being untouched etc. Maybe it could stave off run-away heating, maybe it's just a personal delusion of mine.
My belief is kinda based on explanations for mini-ice ages in the past history. Example given: Medieval cool period, maybe caused by the reduction of human activity after Genghis Khan Conquests (doubtful), or the small ice-age in the 16th-17th century caused by the death of a lot of the indigenous population of the Americas after European Pathogens were introduced through exploration and colonization.
rdwpin@reddit
No, unfortunately the CO2 we spew into the air only comes backk out slowly when it combines with minerals (limestone for example). A very slow process. Even with half the people we have now burning fossil fuels the CO2 would continue to accumulate, just at half the pace now. There is no bounce back that's less than a few centuries after humans quit burning fossil fuels, or are dead because of it.
jestenough@reddit
Arcosanti
Rhonin25@reddit (OP)
Cool to learn of people and projects that already thought through a lot of things we are still struggling with today. Thanks for sharing!
unseemly_turbidity@reddit
There's a near-future sci-fi trilogy about this by Stephen Baxter (Flood, Ark and another one). The writing isn't the best in my opinion, but it goes into quite a lot of detail about how an underwater, floating and space ark could each work.
Still-Improvement-32@reddit
The Silo tv series and books it is based on sounds like your ark idea. Whether this fiction concept is actually possible is doubtful though especially if a worst state collapse incudes an unsurvivabe atmosphere.
BYSTANDER-DOGGEREL@reddit
Time, realistically, for civilized people -- regardless of sex or orientation -- like late Victorian-era brides, to close our eyes, lie back, and think of THE EMPIRE that is soon to be over.
BusIndividual5407@reddit
Follow American Resiliency on YouTube to hear researched ark spaces (they call them lifeboats) in current United States.