Why many C-level just join a company to do a "transformation" and leave in 1 year?
Posted by Atagor@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 287 comments
Maybe it's just me, but I've noticed a pattern in mid-size companies where C-level execs come in, announce some big "transformation" initiative, stick around for 1-2 years and then leave. often before the results (good or bad) are even measurable.. Yet, on linkedin they "transforming organizations!"
I’m not trying to be cynical, but it feels like these "transformations" are more about personal branding than lasting change
Would love to hear if others have seen this happen and what are your thoughts on it
zeruch@reddit
I got brought into a firm once as a senior director to start a new services department (I had co-founded and run as a global director of a TAM services team prior), then shortly thereafter, got promoted to C-staff running all of the post-sales services (CX) for a few years.
There was a fair amount of trepidation from some quarters as to what I might do, and I tried to make it pretty clear I wasn't going to *do* anything until I understood how things actually ran, because as someone who in the past got caught up in the ambitions of exactly the kind of execs you described, was not going to repeat that error of hubris.
We're all of my decisions liked across the board? Nope. But most were taken well, given we were in the middle of being acquired, and we needed to fulfill regulatory compliance on one side, and improve certain trailing metrics on the other. I found it a lot easier to accomplish the former, as it was detailed in its requirements and the parameters well understood. The latter required investigation and understanding of underlying processes, and what should be changed, and then what the dependencies to make those changes (e.g. plot milestones, and build out delivery plans).
I avoided a lot of pageantry, which ended up probably being something I should have done more to get folks excited about the improvements we did make, but we (the team I had were actively involved in their own future) definitely left things in a measurable and vastly improved state than when I arrived (and left).
Basically I believe don't change things just to change them (and take some weird credit for them). Have a plan, deliver on it, and make sure the value prop is clear, understandable, and measurable so that all affected parties/stakeholders 'get it'.
davf135@reddit
It isnt always about the board pushing them out due to performance, sometimes they just become the CXX of a different org/unit in the same company.
As for the Linkedin part, being a C-level requires being able to BS a lot, so them BSing online is actually proof of being a "good" C-suit.
BCBenji1@reddit
It's an age old tale. You see it in junior Devs (I was the same) you see the horrendous mess that has gradually built over year and years and think fuck it, let's start from ground zero, and if your lucky you'll hit 1/4 of the way and realise why the old system did something in that convoluted manner. I subscribe to the idea that gradual small changes are better than wildly jumping from one method to another hoping something sticks.
kingDeborah8n3@reddit
What’s worse is when the executive brings in their whole team from their old company.
Weaves87@reddit
Whenever the board wants substantial (and oft unpopular) changes to occur, they need the face of these changes to be someone disposable. So they add a new executive to the team, the changes get implemented by said executive, and when enough inevitable backlash occurs, they fire the executive, usually with a golden parachute.
Then they hire someone new... and mysteriously, the policy that the old executive put in place doesn't go away when they do. :) That's how you know that they were just a "fall guy".
Sometimes the executive is in on it, sometimes they aren't. They usually get paid well for their service.
I've worked at a number of startups, and this practice is extremely common when you need rapid transformation to happen very quickly, especially if it's very unpopular with the staff.
I worked with a CTO a long time ago where he quite literally specialized in being that guy. His specialty was gutting the engineering/product teams in failing startups that have acquisition interest, and trying to pretty up the balance sheet before an acquisition could realistically happen
Godfiend@reddit
Making the numbers look good before selling the company, and selling before the damage is visible, is an art form that many of these shitbags have perfected.
Just_Information334@reddit
People know about it. After 2 or 3 companies you can also label those kind of person.
So why the fuck would a company whose business is to buy other companies get fooled? "Oh, last CTO was X, we know this guy, thanks but no thanks you can keep your failing shitshow".
Cyclic404@reddit
Are you kidding? At the C level for mid to large orgs it's really all about branding and who you know. Talk to these folks in any depth and you'll realize they have no depth. It's just platitudes wrapped in jazz hands and utterly vapid.
notMeBeingSaphic@reddit
The influence of a hundred data scientist, analysts, and experienced engineers can't hold a flame to whatever a C-level's golf buddy mentioned to them
Just_Information334@reddit
We're a data driven company. The data? What the highest person on the totem pole said last time.
MelAlton@reddit
Went to a talk by an early machine learning / data driven business process guy and he called it HIPPO: the Highest Paid Person's Opinion tends to win in a meeting.
Crunch117@reddit
I don’t like how correct this is
FistThePooper6969@reddit
It’s seriously cult-like: CIO has some idea they cling to and bring in people who buy into and propagate it
doublesteakhead@reddit
Don't you worry about blank, let me worry about blank
cballowe@reddit
The role of an executive at that level is to get the right team and vision in place, make sure that the people reporting to them understand the priorities, and mostly endorse the decisions that the people below them make. They usually have depth, but not in everything, and it's not really their job.
https://apenwarr.ca/log/20190926 is my favorite quick read on the subject.
If the board is hiring the person into the C level for a year or two, it's to shake things up, establish direction, make sure the right directors/vps are in place, and get things moving. They can hire someone else to maintain that after.
meltbox@reddit
And yet they repeatedly seem to fail at exactly this.
DefinitelyNotAPhone@reddit
The goals of an organization and the goals of the investors that own a 15% stake in it often don't align, and the latter is who gets to determine what the org does whether it wants it or not.
As it turns out, gutting payroll and getting a (temporary) record stock price as a result is pretty good for the investors and not very good for the org.
cballowe@reddit
They don't. They do exactly what the board hired them to do. Success and failure aren't in the eyes of the org below them, it's in the eyes of the board and shareholders.
Cyclic404@reddit
It’s like you pointed out the one thing they’re supposed to be good at, that they aren’t good at!
cballowe@reddit
What do you mean? They're often really good at attracting a team / have a deep set of contacts. They get the priority/direction from the board. Past that it's mostly "yes... What VP x and their team decided is in the right direction" or sometimes "try again, you seem to have missed priority X" and then holding the people below them accountable for whatever decision they made.
The board hires them for those skills, not for depth. The board doesn't need them to stay, just to "transform". There's a number of roles at the top that the board uses because if they go wrong, the person will be gone and they can blame them. If it goes right they don't get much of the credit - the longer term person will get that.
meltbox@reddit
How many situations can you point to where a c-level came in and really turned the company around? Not just stopped them from bleeding by cutting and selling off pieces.
Because I bet I can point to 100 where they literally didn’t materially change the company direction at all.
I get a good ceo is worth their money but we are talking about the average ceo here, who appears not to be.
cballowe@reddit
That may not be what they're hired for. If the board says "we want to trim costs and focus on X, your job is to establish that", and they do those things, it's a success whether or not that particular path leads to the company turning around or not. Then they get the exit package and the board hires the replacement known for stability and steady growth or whatever.
And "c-level" could be CTO or CFO or COO or CMO. I have seen more cases of something like "this CFO was brought in because of their relationships with wall st analysts and reputation for controlling costs" - and then they tighten budgets across departments, possibly in ways that are unpopular, but they have the desired effect. Or you bring in a CMO because of their reputation for a certain kind of marketing strategy, and they deliver that. Whether it works or not, they succeeded in the goal. Or you bring in a CTO - maybe they suck, but they have a reputation as being able to attract top talent, and after you hire them, you're able to hire people into other roles because of it. Mission accomplished.
meltbox@reddit
I see what you are saying but then in effect the board is running the company from a strategic perspective which IS NOT THEIR JOB. And of course explains the dysfunction since they're too disconnected to be making good decisions.
Any way I slice this its terrible governance.
cballowe@reddit
The role of the board is to review, approve, and oversee the strategic direction as well as the hiring decisions for roles in the senior leadership (c-suite typically). When the board wants a different strategic direction, they can mostly effect that by swapping c-suite leadership for ones that they feel are best positioned to deliver the direction they want.
It's the same executive algorithm as the top level executives, just one level higher.
It may be less "here's the exact direction we want" but there's a combination of "we think your strategy has run its course so we want a new face to come up with a new strategy" and interviewing / recruiting people with an eye toward the strategies they'll deliver and their past execution in that direction.
megagreg@reddit
That was a really good summary. I'm reading the book now because of it.
cballowe@reddit
And yet I'm downvoted for pointing it out. ... People are weird.
megagreg@reddit
Yeah, redditors are the worst. This looks like a classic case of most downvotes coming from already being downvotes, though it might be turning around now that I've commented, but the vote fuzzing makes it hard to say.
thephotoman@reddit
My CIO is out here trying to be an attention-seeking thought leader. He won't stop talking about "democratizing AI".
I want to be clear: we aren't making or distributing AI models. There's nothing we do that aligns with any kind of "democratization" of AI, whatever that should mean to you. In fact, very few of our applications incorporate any kind of AI, simply because it's an added expense for no added value.
R1skM4tr1x@reddit
Maybe wants to democratize it so they can use it in their apps without getting burnt on codes lol
thephotoman@reddit
What do you mean by "burnt on codes lol"?
That turn of phrase is unfamiliar to me.
R1skM4tr1x@reddit
Typo, meant costs
foodeater184@reddit
In C-speak democratizing means making it available to everyone in the company
anand_rishabh@reddit
If we were serious about "democratizing ai" we'd have to do away with ceo's and billionaires. Otherwise nothing is getting democratized
Cahnis@reddit
You arent hiring a Clevel for his expertise, you are a Clevel for his networking and influence. That is why they are so expensive.
meltbox@reddit
I don’t need them to network. I need them to set objectives and technical direction. Guide the org on metrics that matter etc.
Somehow these basic fucking requirements that could be done with an associates in stats and a basic intro to Econ class escape most c-levels entirely. It blows my mind that boards still pay them much of anything.
xudoxis@reddit
I think that's a basic misunderstanding of what their job is. If an associate can do it then have the associate do it. But you aren't going to get very far putting the associate in a budget planning meeting arguing for resources against a cro and cmo.
meltbox@reddit
My point is not that the associate can argue against A-type personalities. My point is the A-types bring very little practical uplift to the org. If you want good leadership, hire someone who can execute and not just someone who can argue against other assholes effectively.
My argument is the whole premise is idiotic. I don't really care how good a C-level is at talking over people and making them shut up because that doesn't deliver results from a pragmatic standpoint.
Cyclic404@reddit
In theory, yes. In practice there certainly are folks in business that have the connections and have an expertise in something deep. What you find are many where the personality is far deeper than their ability.
Cahnis@reddit
Their personality fits into the influence, it is an asset to attract investors.
nullstacks@reddit
“It’s just platitudes wrapped in jazz hands.” - Abraham Lincoln
rosietherivet@reddit
I used to work at a publicly traded software company with thousands of employees that literally had a non-technical CIO who was essentially a marketer. It's really unfathomable even after leaving that place.
Cyclic404@reddit
Cults of personality.
Busy_Blood3919@reddit
Happened to my job recently. CTO with Amazon values came in, did some org changes, left after a year. In between all that he caused a lot of devs to quit (not a single person from my old team stayed), and after he left a lot of what he did didn't stick.
coleavenue@reddit
Amazon execs are the worst, all they do is say “disagree and commit”, eat hot chip, and lie.
Sea-Us-RTO@reddit
ironically, the folks that don't understand the lp's are the ones most likely to be ousted from amazon and given this reorg position.
coleavenue@reddit
In practice, outside of Amazon, I’ve only ever seen “disagree and commit” mean “shut up and do what I say, no matter how obviously stupid it is”.
BushLeagueResearch@reddit
It’s funny because working at amazon, it is EXCEPTIONALLY rare for things to come down to “disagree and commit”
epelle9@reddit
Did I get it wrong, I thought it was “have backbone, disagree and commit”.
As in, you should speak up when you disagree, so you can then deep dive to build consensus.
Then if consensus in not built you shill need to commit, but you still did your part in having backbone and disagreeing.
adilp@reddit
only disagree and commit I ever saw was with RTO. Otherwise I never really saw it, disagree happened a lot in doc reviews
IReallyLoveAvocados@reddit
What does it mean differently within Amazon? It literally means do what I say no matter how stupid it is
Sea-Us-RTO@reddit
one could say it's a poorly designed lp due to the frequent misinterpretations of it, but i think that the ambiguity is intentional. the other lp's have an easily understood see-saw of what happens if you apply it too much vs. too little, so the difficulty of proper application of disagree + commit turns into a bit of a litmus test. its extremely obvious when someone uses it inappropriately, as you pointed out, because the data and customer experience will not support their perspective. eventually it squeezes out the folks in the middle of the chain that were able to get past the first few levels.
HugeSide@reddit
Lol, the exact same thing happened where I worked. He hasn’t left yet though
TheTyger@reddit
If the C-suite is turning over that fast, it's because they are getting fired. Being brought in for "transformation" means the company is having problems. Being gone before the stock has vested means they failed.
mamaBiskothu@reddit
Small companies means its options not stock. And you have to decide if you want to exercise them. If you decide you don't want to, then no point staying till they vest. So its not a clear proof someone got fired.
eGzg0t@reddit
or they want the CTO to make devs quit and save cost instead of paying severance
SmashThroughShitWood@reddit
lol this is giving them way too much credit
Goducks91@reddit
Yeah… paying out severance sounds way cheaper than overpaying a bad CTO 😂
yashdes@reddit
They don't care about the cost, they're not the ones paying and it's not going to be enough to affect their bottom line significantly, typically. They care about shifting blame, so they can keep their cushy jobs and obscene paychecks
turkish_gold@reddit
You wouldn’t need to do it multiple times. One company I know of had 8+ re organizations under the same leadership team. Despite increasing profits, they would always abandon their direction only to switch back to it within 2 quarters as they do another re org.
Finally this year, the board fired the CEO and the new guy has been pledged that it will stop.
NoJudge2551@reddit
Thought you were talking about my organization until you mentioned the CEO lol. Guess this is commonplace everywhere.
turkish_gold@reddit
Haha. I was trying hard not to give things away since I wasn’t sure I’d get in trouble.
dweezil22@reddit
Yeah this happens when you have a stupid leader who just does what the last person they talked to tells them. I'd like to avoid polluting this sub with political talk, but let's just say there are some examples of that in the news lately.
TheTyger@reddit
Yeah, if a company is particularly suffering, hiring in someone to do the ugly stuff with a short term contract is a potential way to do a staffing change, fire the "bad guy", and come out of it without keeping the blood on the hands of the one who did it.
In general, short tenure in any category is a bad sign.
dweezil22@reddit
Ax men tend to preside over layoffs, not mass voluntary attrition. Inducing ppl to quit will inevitably just cause the best people to leave and hurt the company. (Though recent RTO pushes make me less sure of companies judgement on this front...)
DoctorDabadedoo@reddit
Generally speaking is a strong sign of friction. Either they are not delivering to the expectations of the board or there is a tug of war in the board.
Either way, unless the C-suite is a jackass, it means that the board is clueless to what brings actual value to the company and it's long term success. A bad hire and board attrition it's a consequence of that.
Agent281@reddit
Or they left because they could see it was going no where. Which is also a pretty terrible sign for the company.
Swayt@reddit
Failing upward, and burning down team culture at a time. We also have a dirge of Amazon execs coming into big tech, and they are doing the same things here.
My last team has 100% attrition after a new Amazon exec came in. The running joke is "they can manage this way because Amazon execs can put an entire team on a PIP to prevent internal transfers"... It just doesn't work when people can leave.
KhonMan@reddit
Dirge?
Aggressive_Ad_5454@reddit
The word "dirge" in music means "funeral march". I think it's well-chosen here.
KhonMan@reddit
It’s a funeral song, not the actual procession. If someone was speaking positively and said “We have a symphony of Amazon execs coming into other big tech” that would also be unusual phrasing.
TiggySkibblez@reddit
It’s a common use of the term actually, not unusual at all
magpie882@reddit
The “march” in “funeral march” there refers to the music type. A funeral march (music) accompanies a funeral march (action). We typically think of march music as the more uplifting, happy parade style (think Sousa marches and marching bands), but a march is simply music intended to keep an organized procession of any mood through steady, regular tempos.
twinklytennis@reddit
I would add Uber execs to that list from my experience.
Competitive-Nail-931@reddit
damn stack rank only works with h1bs?
csanon212@reddit
The whole "bad performance ratings makes you ineligible for transfer" is a Hallmark of Amazon management with URA quota. In logical companies, if someone is not performing, but their skills are better suited to a different team, it's a no brainer to have them transfer. A lot of culture of Amazon is based on getting deemed low performers out the door on their own accord.
GuinnessDraught@reddit
It’s funny how many proudly display the “ex-Amazon” as a flex, but to those who know it’s a giant flashing red warning sign.
anand_rishabh@reddit
If they're an ex Amazon dev, chances are they were trying to leave such an environment for something more chill. It's the ex Amazon management you have to watch out for
FightingSideOfMe1@reddit
I applied at a company where the CTO was ex-amazon, they I checked their core values, they ripped off like 4 of those Amazon principles.. not only he is ex Amazon but fake to rip off some garbage like that.
anand_rishabh@reddit
Yeah, my company management seems to not be able to have an original thought to save their life. They just copy what Amazon did 6 months to a year before.
redditrum@reddit
Have an ex-amz dev who is my eng mgr now and he is pretty solid.
anand_rishabh@reddit
When i say "manager" i don't necessarily mean the engineering manager with devs who are direct reports. It's the middle management who are most likely to bring the grinding culture of Amazon
GuinnessDraught@reddit
Right, but they aren’t flexing how proud they are of being Amazon managers
PicoloPotatoDish@reddit
By any chance, does the company name start with F, ends with T?
FeliusSeptimus@reddit
Faceboot?
Soccham@reddit
This is happening all over with former Amazon leadership, it’s sadly not a unique experience
Kaizen321@reddit
Ha, sounds similar to my old place.
I lost track. I think some sr devs became team leads and then managers.
I suppose there was some transformation alright lol
(Just not a good one for devs)
Sweet-Satisfaction89@reddit
Did we work at the same company?
Kaizen321@reddit
For your sake and mine, I hope not.
Safe travels fellow dev
bah_nah_nah@reddit
That's amazon culture for you
Alwaysafk@reddit
Our most recent one spent a shit ton on Delloite confusing fees then jumped ship and is doing it at her next gig.
nowybulubator@reddit
Same thing happening where i work for 3rd year in a row. We've got our CTO in May, he said we will start doing things Google style. He better start paying google level and hiring google class engineers, he's so unaware how incompetent most our engineers are. We don't even do RCAs.
CorrectRate3438@reddit
What is he calling "Google style"?
MarzipanMiserable817@reddit
Here's what Gemini said
Jestar342@reddit
Propellor hats and a slide to the canteen.
Material-Smile7398@reddit
Where do I sign up please?
CorrectRate3438@reddit
Oh, that's a relief. I thought it just meant killing popular services, making your flagship product worse to the point of being barely usable, and committing egregious antitrust violations.
spells_it_out_4_u@reddit
Root Cause Analysis
mregecko@reddit
Literally had this happen with an ex-Amazon exec a few years ago. One year and 20-some million dollars richer, with a bunch of nothing to show for it.
At this point I can only aspire. Working hard is apparently for chumps.
garenbw@reddit
Booking?
30thnight@reddit
It’s always the Amazon people too
dinosaursrarr@reddit
No, sometimes it's Oracle people too
red4scare@reddit
That is a feature, not a bug. Some execs are brought in to fire people or make them leave, then exit the company and take the hit and the bad rep with them.
Soccham@reddit
Lol this sounds like my company. The last year under the new guy has been great but the Amazon guy was basically tasked with fixing the COVID over hiring
guyfromwhitechicks@reddit
Which parts stuck?
coleavenue@reddit
Amazon execs are the worst, all they do is say “disagree and commit”, eat hot chip, and lie.
fugazi_100@reddit
Not sure if this has already been covered by someone, but you should look into what’s called a ‘parachute clause.’ It’s often included in executive contracts and guarantees big compensation if the executive’s role is terminated - which as others mentioned happens during high-risk initiatives like transformation efforts.
Since many of these executives are brought in to drive a major change, which could succeed or fail depending on many factors, they often carry a built in exit plan. The board might decide to replace leadership if the direction shifts, but the executive walks away with a huge package.
Outside_Knowledge_24@reddit
That sounds like the board is unhappy with their performance but the departing executive is trying to brand it as success.
Trip-Trip-Trip@reddit
After which the board hires practically a clone of the guy they weren’t happy with and repeat the cycle.
NiteShdw@reddit
How do I get to become one of those?
Drevicar@reddit
In the industry we call it “failing upwards”.
WearMoreHats@reddit
You work at a company that undergoes a transformation, then you get generous with your description of how involved you were to try and persuade another company to let you lead their transformation. Pull that off a few times then rebrand yourself as a "transformation specialist" and talk about how passionate (and experienced) you are about helping companies transform to become more modern/agile/optimised/whatever, which is why you never hang around for too long.
glandis_bulbus@reddit
Remove all empathy for people is a good start
dronmore@reddit
Fake it till you make it.
nsxwolf@reddit
A past history of “success”
praetor-@reddit
"Well, the Amazon and Microsoft approaches didn't work for us. Let's try Salesforce next. One of these is going to stick and then it's smooth sailing to $50bn"
BroBroMate@reddit
OKRs proliferate...
brainhack3r@reddit
I see it more a the executive being incompatible with the board.
There's a reason boards don't run companies.
When you're a leader you have to do things that would NEVER make it through a committee.
I think this is one of the reasons why founding CEOs do so well because they have an insane amount drive and the power to execute.
suedepaid@reddit
Sometimes boards bring in people specifically to do one big thing, especially if it’s unpopular. They’ll bring in someone to do the big, tough thing that makes enemies, then let em walk.
Emopizza@reddit
greebly_weeblies@reddit
All execs are always trying to brand whatever they do, success or fail, as success. Often they're permitted to, especially while jumping ship.
Whisky-Toad@reddit
My last company loves to change high level employees “by mutual consent”
greebly_weeblies@reddit
Oof. That's comparatively rough.
"Strategic transition leave" or "research sabbatical" would be a gentler way to go out
drink_with_me_to_day@reddit
What board would want to tell the world they made a bad choice?
greebly_weeblies@reddit
Absolutely. Exec management is usually covered in glory
jimmy66wins@reddit
Execs===People
Whammywon@reddit
For sure.
I worked asset protection for Best Buy during a time that their new CEO changed AP procedures which led to an exponential increase in shrink, about 10 years ago. After a year of the failed policies, they pushed out a training course trying to gaslight store employees into thinking it failed because we didn’t follow the procedures as written. I lost what little faith I had in C-levels that day.
Karyo_Ten@reddit
Smart C-levels hire McKinsey has a $500K ibsurance policy they can blame if shit hits the fan (and take credit otherwise)
thehardsphere@reddit
C-level employees leave like this for two reasons:
They get fired by their boards for poor performance.
They hate working with other people in the C-suite.
edtate00@reddit
thehardsphere@reddit
C-suite people don't hop like that lightly. When you are in upper management or the C-suite, job hopping reflects much more poorly on you exactly because it takes time to establish impact and demonstrate leadership. The main thing you're offering at that level is the ability to lead, so if you leave before actually doing that for any time, it's pretty bad. Boards also try to prevent it from happening, because a C-suite with a revolving door makes the company look like its prospects are dismal (if the prospects were good, you'd expect them to stick long enough to exercise their options and get rich).
2 year minimum before you jump. Which is good advice at lower roles also for different reasons. 0 to 6 months: the company hired you by mistake. 6 to 12 months: you ran away before your first performance review, so you're probably not that good. 12 to 24 months: you survived one performance review, but would you have survived another? 24+: you must have did at least OK through two performance reviews, so you can't be bad.
supyonamesjosh@reddit
I agree generally but think there is some nuance. Any job less than a year I raise an eyebrow. That job did not work out. I don’t know if it’s because the candidate had a problem or the company had a problem or whatever but it didn’t turn out well. More than a couple of these is a problem. Over a year and under two however I think is more reasonable. I want to see some multi year jobs to prove that happens but having 1.5 year job, 5 year job, 1.5 year job I don’t think is a big deal at all.
tech-bernie-bro-9000@reddit
imo best answer.
one 2-5+ year job = okay, people can work with them
a few 1-2 year stints just means the candidate knows their worth.
i don't personally try to hire people who have e.g. 10 positions in 10 years, but 5-6 positions yeah that may be ok
Middle-Comparison607@reddit
I had more jobs than I have years of career. My shortest one was 23 days, my longest around 4 years, but on average I have one job per year. I double my salary every two years, although in the recent years I’ve hit a plateau. Now I finally found a company where I can feel I can work forever, but I know that it’s not my decision. In the end, if you provide the right environment and compensation people will feel motivated and stay, if not they will leave. The fact that you are afraid of hiring someone that is a “serial job hopper” tells me more about you and your company than it tells me about the candidate.
tech-bernie-bro-9000@reddit
respect to ya! no hate.
for me, as a hiring manager or really as someone with a say, it's not 100% disqualifying-- but if i'm looking for a teammate to stick around for more than 1 year and they've shown 10 instances of leaving after 1 year--- the data says what the data says
it's simply harder to justify to directors/leadership as a good decision if your criteria is "someone who will stay" and you have similar qualified people with the tenure and/or career shape that fits that criteria.
Middle-Comparison607@reddit
I would add as many one years as necessary. If I’m not happy with a company I won’t stay just because it looks good on resume. Do you really want someone unhappy to stay? Think about it, it makes no sense.
At the same time, someone who has job hopped for a while only means they know exactly what they are worth and what they are looking for. If you can offer this to them you can become their first 4+ years, if you can’t you will just be another one.
I will absolutely not follow your advice because, believe me or not, I’m actually pretty successful and I prefer to be filtered out of companies if this is the hiring criteria.
roger_ducky@reddit
As a c-level executive, or even a middle manager with c-level visibility, you want to do two things: * Announce something that sets the tone/theme of what you’re trying to do.
Announcement of an initiative does both of those things at the same time.
Especially since most initiatives take 3-5 years to take effect. So you can blame your predecessor for anything bad happening org-wide.
txgsync@reddit
There is an angle I am not seeing here.
It’s common for the Board to realize that they face intractable labor problems. Particularly if they’ve needed to work with private equity to stay in business. The old CEO is too ingrained with the work culture to be willing to make the kinds of radical cuts required to keep the company solvent in order to exit the private equity contract without being liquidated.
So they bring in the person who knows how to do deep cuts. To meet the requirements of the equity contract. To specifically focus on the most expensive areas that are often the bread-and-butter of the company. Because if they don’t increase profits so the investor can get their money with interest back, the whole company gets sold off for parts in a few years.
So the CEO enters, knowing they are to do the hatchet job. It’s going to be messy. They are going to be hated by their workers. They cannot be a long-term leader for the company. Their job is to get in, make the painful cuts the previous CEO wouldn’t, demonstrate a path to profitability, pay off the equity investors so there is no longer a Sword of Damocles over the company, and then get out so the Board can appoint a new CEO who will “rebuild” and help the company move forward without pissing off all the remaining entrenched employees.
eraserhd@reddit
The board and the CEO has a problem. It doesn't matter which problem, and there is always a problem, because that's how life works.
With this problem in mind, they go to hire a C-level executive. They search and they find one that can speak confidently about how they are going to solve the problem.
C-level executives only have so many levers. In steady-state, the value of a C-level executive is the ability to communicate, bring people onto the same page, and help subdeoartments and direct reports prioritize when resources are limited.
But we've already decided we're unsatisfied with the status quo. So the only lever left is to reorganize. Change reporting lines, outsource large functions, do an agile transformation.
But all off these things are intentionally disruptive. Since the system wants to reach equilibrium and probably already had some degree of it, this makes things worse in the short term, and may or may not make things better in the long term.
But disrupting a system isn't a science, and systems love to reject changes, and often the bad result that people wanted to eliminate is deeply baked into either the system it the environment. This means that it's likely the problem comes back, possibly in a new form.
So the cycle repeats. Since the executive can't really be blamed, they move on to greener pastures.
magicnubs@reddit
I wonder if this is actually the desired outcome. You know how it's often harder to get a promotion by staying with a company than by jumping ship? Companies often would rather hire an outside manager than to promote someone from within the team for various reasons (a peer becoming a superior brings a lot more baggage to the dynamic than just bringing in someone new). The "new exec comes in, changes everything and then leaves" scenario seems like the same mentality: bring in someone new, let them make unpopular changes, and then when they leave for their next job everyone can blame them instead of the existing management. It's the same mentality behind hiring a consulting company to tell them they need to slash benefits: they wanted to do it anyway, but now they can say "well, we need to take the consultants' advice to remain competitive" or whatever.
wookiee42@reddit
That's what I always thought was going on. I saw it working in retail and restaurants too.
Someone who was on the cusp of a senior manager would come in from a far away store and be a hardass. They made the unpopular changes corporate wanted to make, then moved on to a different store.
I suppose I've seen someone come in that sold a bunch of BS crash and burn too.
csanon212@reddit
I got hired as an engineering manager, but was surprised when I came in that no one had been considered internally. Apparently, the budget for a backfilled engineering manager was built in, but promoting someone into the role was not. I do get to bring an outside perspective but apparently some folks had managerial aspirations and I'm seen as "anointed from above".
viniciusvbf@reddit
It's the easiest job in the world. Do barely any work, come up with some changes you learned in some bullshit MBA you did, stick around for a year to cash in your big fat bonus (that was reached by nonsense KPIs you made up and manipulated the numbers to beat the threshold), leave saying it was all a big success, regardless of the results, rinse and repeat.
Ligeia_E@reddit
Just happened with mine. I’m pretty sure he got fired lmao
donjulioanejo@reddit
The same reason developers join a company, write a microservice in Rust or Golang when most of the company uses Ruby or Java, and leave in 1-2 years before they have to maintain it.
Resume Driven Development.
Technical_Gap7316@reddit
Whereas Java devs are doing LoC driven development.
Sometimes you need someone to shake things up.
alternatex0@reddit
I've never worked anywhere where the programming language used to write the software was the problem.
Technical_Gap7316@reddit
Lucky you
data-artist@reddit
Usually they are brought in to fire a bunch of people and replace them with offshore resources. It usually doesn’t work out as promised, so before anyone knows how much of a failure it really was, they are off to the next company to do it all over again.
imInHidingDontAsk@reddit
Once you’re past a certain sized company and that company is making money you’re going to get a lot of higher ups that have no fucking clue on what’s happening.
I work at a company that’s doing very well. Head of IT is an accountant by trade who thinks the business analyst writing a JIRA ticket saying “create good software” with 5 story points is the same thing as the devs actually implementing it.
They want an excel sheet processed and they don’t want to see that excel sheet processor to cost a fortune. When it does start costing a fortune they ask why it costs so much and when the dev explains to them it’s not free, and when you pressure me so I have to cut corners things pile up they double down.
Some big dick hot shot comes in and says “I can fix all your problems trust me bro” then they spend a bunch of money on what they think is a silver bullet solution all for this “visionary thought leader” who read about some new tech on LinkedIn last week to collect a huge check and fuck off for a pay rise.
They just know how to tell people what they want to hear and can navigate those conversations in the companies that I’ve worked for.
fullouterjoin@reddit
They are on a stock laundering sabbatical where they get a nice workcation and 5-10% of the company.
4InchesOfury@reddit
It’s a big club and you ain’t in it.
xAmorphous@reddit
For real. The way these positions are staffed incentives broad sweeping changes that often target cost cutting, as it provides immediate value to shareholders. Calm, level headed leadership is often only appreciated years down the line, which is eons for these guys who want to make $$$$$ in comp bonuses.
It's just one huge circle jerk between the execs and the shareholders, and you're in the middle.
SpiderHack@reddit
I'm a big fan of thinking systemically about problems, bad management is a sign of a bad system in place, etc.
Shit corporate policies are a direct response to the rulings by scotus to legalize bribery and to make corporations (and unions) be able to make political campaign donations... Both in late 70s and then Reagan era decisions to re-clasaify stock buy backs as no longer illegal stock price manipulation (like it was for decades before that) but as legal again.
Combine a system like that with no legal requirements for publicly traded companies to have any worker representatives (like Germany) and you end up with the burning trash heap we have today of C-suite doing 100% what they can to get shareholders exponential growth immediately and to get massive stock options from the board of directors (who are put there by the largest voting shareholders)...
budding_gardener_1@reddit
Exec 1 comes in and implements a bunch of dumb shit. It makes the line go up for a couple of quarters so it looks like a success. Then they leave just before everything comes crashing down and go to do it again at the next place. The next exec comes in goes "wtf is this shit?" and undoes everything the first exec did.
TLDR: rabbit season/duck season
the_fresh_cucumber@reddit
That's how it felt when I got denied by chess club. They let everyone in that damn club, even total idiots, but denied me
VictoryMotel@reddit
I don't think you understood what that phrase meant.
yoortyyo@reddit
We listened to Reagan instead of Carlin.
MelAlton@reddit
We were laughing at Carlin's jokes, but he wasn't joking
JeffCavaliere-here@reddit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nyvxt1svxso
SF_FFS@reddit
A lot of devs do this too. They join, announce some new and “better” process, architecture, framework or some other thing. Start everyone implementing it, changing the way everyone works, making their mark. Then I guess they ask for a payrise/promotion and leave if they don’t get it. Then their replacement comes and does something similar. I think it’s just a way to look like they’re going above and beyond. They probably just do the same shit everywhere they go. Meanwhile everyone else has to learn the new thing, slowing them down. It probably allows them to look like they outshine their peers. Then they get promoted and/or more money. Or leave and brag about transforming their last company.
thekwoka@reddit
Because most of them aren't good strategic thinkers, and just come in, quick wins and leave
wouldntyouliketokno_@reddit
All of them
slowd@reddit
Come in, make a few big initiatives, fail, leave quietly for the next job after collecting your $2M.
DigmonsDrill@reddit
Dilbert was making fun of this back in 1994.
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/grahamrae_dilbert-comic-strip-on-september-07-1994-activity-6990731321631227906-nY-F
"Hi I'm your new boss let's change everything before I get reassigned oops too late bye."
blbd@reddit
It was a hell of a comic until the creator lost the plot.
the_fresh_cucumber@reddit
The corporate world finally drove him crazy
VictoryMotel@reddit
He worked for himself.
Korzag@reddit
Its amazing how those comics are still relevant thirty years later.
morgo_mpx@reddit
Because that’s what they are hired to do. VC brings in new c suite to setup the company to be sellable on paper.
The_Real_Slim_Lemon@reddit
Worst part is there’s always an NDA when they leave, the C suite guy leaves nicely and the business promises not to out them as garbage. They then go and screw up the next place that thinks they are “poaching” some hotshot.
ebalonabol@reddit
Witnessed that a bunch of times. Not only C-levels do that though, tech/team leads can be as bad. They come in, redo the roadmap and the architecture under the guise of improving shit, 1-2 years later nothing is improved, and they leave. I call such people resume-farmers. Their future employers can't verify their actions were actually for good but the paragraph in their resume still says very bold stuff.
Haven't yet figured out how to fight these folks since they're usually above you in the hierarchy
PuffTheMagicPanda@reddit
During my MBA we learnt that alot of times companies hire a new ceo/c-suite depending on the stage of the company. Some c-suites specialize taking a product 0-100, but others may specialize in maintaining that 100. That's generally the rational reason, but who knows, boards also have an influence.
based_miss_lippy@reddit
It ain’t no coincidence
psk9033@reddit
Have read it somewhere for such executives:
"The ability to smile and promise things which you can't deliver is a highly transferable skill."
thisFishSmellsAboutD@reddit
They're called seagulls.
Flutter in, make a hell of a racket, shit on everything, then leave without having accomplished anything.
pceimpulsive@reddit
Standard corporate fluff...
They often make change for the sake of change,leaving largely all the same problem in tact but marginally improved with an added later of obfuscation..
It's all water off a ducks back, ig ore then and listen to the people that stick around!
zaitsman@reddit
The pay is huge and a huge part of compensation is in bonuses and options tied to performance goals. In the first year or two said goals are easily defined as starting these initiatives so it is very easy to come in, stick around till the bonus is paid out, rinse and repeat.
chrisza4@reddit
Because they failed so they leave. I’m not sure what to confuse here.
soft_white_yosemite@reddit
I wasn’t a C-level, but I came in to help them overcome some major issues. They didn’t have a separate dev server. They merged all feature branches at the end of the sprint and wondered why they always had issues. They had an external company with two devs that built most of the application and they were not the best developers. Yet they insisted on reviewing all work we did.
I pushed for testing and verifying early and merging early, so that we could deploy with greater confidence. I wanted to ditch the external company and hire our own devs. I had no devops people so I built my own ci system that allowed you to run a feature branch on a fresh copy of a company instance and get stakeholder approval before merging. I also built a system that allowed push-button instantiation of new tenancies.
I got resistance. My bosses loved the plan, but I had the tech in place and it was time to start doing the processes, no one wanted to.
I left after realising they weren’t going to change.
MachineOfScreams@reddit
Essentially big change initiatives are longshot, splashy projects that have a high rate of failure due to the execs not being around long enough to really understand the problem. So they fail in their transformation goal but have that fancy C level exec experience to make them attractive to other companies.
socialistpizzaparty@reddit
Wow, we must work at the same company. We’ve had 2-3 failed “transformations” in the past 5 years.
magpie882@reddit
CXOs are some of the worst job hoppers, even at large companies. But if a CXO has been brought in specifically do a transformation, I can easily imagine they get in, realize it is a way bigger issue than they had anticipated, and spin what they can to get out and on to the next golden handshake.
Transformations are exhausting, especially ones that fail due to lack of traction with the relevant departments inside the company. They often show much deeper, systematic, often straight up legacy problems that need to be fixed before the exciting/shiny things can be done. Take DX transformations. Getting a proper data catalog experience isn’t a sexy line item in the budget, but there is only so long you can keep slapping AI on top of poorly managed dataset as a POC.
metalisticpain@reddit
They are just failures. Can't achieve anything lasting in 1 year. But ofc , fail upwards
w32stuxnet@reddit
Share holders want growth, first and foremost. If there isn't growth, they sell. This translates into a strong interest in short term transformation projects, not "keeping the ship afloat".
CajunBmbr@reddit
Could be the wheelbarrows full of cash?
They prob have limited skills/ability but know how to move one or two needles and like George Costanza, get the hell out after they get lucky and adjust trends in any way.
whitenoize086@reddit
You got it right, being an effective manager that brings lasting change isn't accomplished in a year or two.
audentis@reddit
EmbarrassedSeason420@reddit
Resume driven leadershi(p/t)
_1dontknow@reddit
They're fired but officially told to leave (ie. resign) so they don't ruin their career.
PhaseMatch@reddit
It's the C-suite version of house flipping.
They are "levelling up" based on collecting "resume bullet points"
Usual pattern is :
Y1 - get hired based on previous resume
Y2 - implement big-bang changes and fix surface issues
Y3 - move on before the underlying problems explode
They talk a good game while making sure they have scapegoats ready for any failure, and move on before the dysfunction they creates comes home to roost.
They might even believe it too: attribution and survivorship biases with a frosting of Dunning Kruger and a hint of cherry-picking, all wrapped up in the "limits to growth" systems thinking archetype.
YMMV, but I've only ever seen genuine long-term change where the execs leading it were in for the long haul and were leaders worth following. Zero coercion.
If the C-suite has highly ambitious "transformation artists" being brought in - as members or consultants - then build your bureaucratic, document based firewalls to keep you and your teams safe.
45t3r15k@reddit
Worked for a company that ended up bringing in several execs from a competitor and made them C-level. Ended up being a Trojan horse take over. The new CIO threatened to fire all the tech staff at a time when they each could have had new jobs by the end of the next week. No way he was that stupid. Once enough of the experienced devs are gone, when the stack goes down, no one will be able to bring it back up. Then you have to hold an emergency board meeting where a new platform will be adopted. The stock price will drop and the competitor will buy it up and force their platform and devs, riffing anyone left in IT. Viola.
cpz_77@reddit
lol we had this happen, contract CFO swoops in out of nowhere , decides he doesn’t like certain systems we use, gets an outside consulting company (finance, not IT) to come in and give their recommendation for an overhaul which backs what he wanted and then uses that as the platform to kick off a huge project to revamp a major portion of our infrastructure…THEN informs our IT director of his plans. The plan had more holes than a Swiss cheese but all advice and objections from tech folks were silenced. And then once he’s pushed the project just far enough to where other leaders would see it as too costly to turn back, he bails.
From there it was the sunken cost fallacy that kept the initiative moving , years later it finally gets completed after untold amounts of labor and money were put towards it, and the final result is still more clunky and has more hoops to jump through to make everything work than the old setup ever did. Users are still complaining about it. But here we are 🤷♂️
Meanwhile the guy who wanted all this is long gone. So stupid.
pachumelajapi@reddit
I think thats how those positions are staffed. You propose something, get hired, do the thing, get bonus, go somewhere else.
PrinceNV@reddit
pls upvote, need some comment karma to create a post
oldDotredditisbetter@reddit
reported :)
taruckus@reddit
You might only know for sure if you have good org visibility or peers that do, but the short term c-level likely failed. Then, between themselves, the board and other c's they decided that was enough. Measurable success within that short of a timeframe is a selling point.
I've seen new leaders restructure and turn over departments, and then once they depart after a year, the remaining "old guard" c's pick up the pieces and rebuild the department back to what it was before. What expense to go from so-so homeostasis to much worse and then back again over a couple of years.
Spencerbug@reddit
There's a phenomenon where hiring a new CEO or CTO boosts shares. Maybe it sounds like positive news, company going in a new direction etc. A lot of that boost my guess is automated, trading bots reading sentiments, and every new CTO seems like a positive sentiment. So they boost their shares, boardmembers sell a bit off the top after the boost, CEO toots their own horn and claim they are just "getting started", then before they accomplish anything, the boards votes out the old CEO and get a new one in a year and do it again.
Alternative-Wafer123@reddit
Imagine you are living in communist party controlled country and you will know how to play corp game.
thatVisitingHasher@reddit
I do this as a consultant. This really could be a three-beer conversation.
Let's start when this person is hired. During the interview, they were told that IT spending was out of control. No one understands what they do, and they never hit deadlines. When they do, they don't deliver what the business asked for. Right out of the gate, the new hire does the wrong job because they should be trying to figure out how to unlock business value, but they spend their time trying to show control of the IT organization.
They hired someone outside the company because no one wants to change outside of IT. The new person is given some leeway and some support, but for the most part, other company leaders don't care if they succeed or fail. Being remote in this role is extremely difficult because it's mostly about influence and relationship building. It's 60% teaching other departments how to value tech and change their org structure and processes, and 40% buying and building software.
These companies always hire someone from FAANG because they think they can turn their company into a mini FAANG in their industry by hiring one person. The irony is that the person has no idea how to change culture at scale because they joined a FAANG company with an established culture.
They keep trying to make their new org look like a tech company, but that doesn't happen within IT. You must also replace over 80% of your employees because you need to move fast and show results, and Tom and Allison, who have been there for twenty years, will fight to change anything.
There is so much more. I could go on for hours. Ultimately, it's a combination of overestimating their ability as leaders and the business wanting them to do the job, but not if it inconveniences them.
Material-Smile7398@reddit
Yip, pretty much a better written version of my answer, not everyone wants to see someone else succeed where they have failed in the past.
Material-Smile7398@reddit
Another point of view may be that they do their best, but are met with a wave of resistance to change. Being new, they have no allies to help them effect change so they jump ship realising that they can’t follow through on their commitments.
_sw00@reddit
Remember when Instagram turned eating a meal into an opportunity for showmanship and social validation?
So it is with LinkedIn and jobs now.
donjulioanejo@reddit
"What having a baby taught me about b2b sales!"
...I wish I was even kidding here.
pa_dvg@reddit
LinkedIn brain rot is the worst
Repulsive-Hurry8172@reddit
For real. It's even worse thank TikTok. At least TikTok in general does not pretend to be smart.
Pleasant-Direction-4@reddit
lmao that’s a real post!
fforres@reddit
A meal!?
A SUCCULENT CHINESE MEAL!?
returnofthewait@reddit
They come in, make a couple of generic speeches. Have some kind of project that somebody else is doing and find a new job for more money. It's absurd.
DabbingCorpseWax@reddit
It’s the c-level equivalent of a dev leaving 6-18 months in a role. Easily the best possible way to rapidly increase compensation packages.
Leaving before the results is literally the point, if you were unsure. If they stay around and a bad result comes in they’ll be blamed for it. If they leave during the hype-cycle before it blows up they get to tell new companies that they’re the hero that caused the hype. Whoever is at the old company when things go wrong will be blamed, not the person who set it up and bailed early.
DigThatData@reddit
https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20210226-failing-up-why-some-climb-the-ladder-despite-mediocrity
powpow198@reddit
Its how the gravy train works.
Either "bring things in house to improve quality" or "reduce headcount and improve profits".
pyow_pyow@reddit
Resume-driven-development happens at all levels ... but I suggest reading the 10-Q quarterly filing reports for public "tech" companies since the companies are, IIRC, required to disclose the compensation for new exec-level hires since they typically require board approval (the board of directors is also a club and members get paid; see 10-K annual filing reports for board compensation).
You'll see newly hired exec's full compensation typically outlined in an offer letter that is under section 10.2 in the 10-Q.
It's public info, searchable at the SEC's website: https://www.sec.gov/edgar/search
I've witnessed an instance where an engineering exec was hired on and soon started doing re-orgs and trying to cut costs. This person was hired on with a ~$600k salary, ~$4m in RSUs, a ~$8m cash signing bonus, and a few other large $ comp items. They quit after a year and sold a good chunk of the RSUs (also public info) and kept the whole ~8m cash signing bonus even though their offer letter said 50% of the bonus would have to be returned if the exec left before a certain period (exec departure comp details are also noted in 10-K filing reports).
Don't hate the player, hate the game. /s?
Pentanubis@reddit
Dirty work for a C level colleague. Do the nasty objective, own the blame and leave, the original cast and crew get to look blameless.
f1datamesh@reddit
Hi!
I can give the story of my recent CTO's departure under similar circumstances, I am intimately familiar with what went on. He had been an actual transformer at previous large orgs.
Normally how it goes is this. At C-Level, you are not hired via a normal process. It is bunch of discussions over a period of time. He had a lot of success previously, so based on this, he was brought on. He asked for an amount of budget and promised increased efficiency and eventually impact on sales.
None of that came to pass. He tried to transform the org, but it didn't exactly happen, and despite getting a huge budget, the sales of the company didn't really go up.
So, at that time, he was told to leave. Officially he left to spend more time with the family.
In short, you get a budget, a target, if you fail, you are let go.
projexion_reflexion@reddit
Job hopping benefits employees at every level. Why do so many coders want to fulfill a specific contract and jet?
colcatsup@reddit
I feel like with a lot of these transformers, there's more than meets the eye...
vaginawarfare@reddit
Because 2 years is enough time for people to figure out your bullshit.
Megamygdala@reddit
It takes one year for stocks to vest
FormerKarmaKing@reddit
I used to consult as an interim CTO. Why do they leave? Because:
If your company needs a turn around then odds are it’s not a great company to work at for any longer than needs to either make significant changes or figure out that the problems are unlikely to be solved.
Worst problem is that the market is shrinking.
Next is that the rest of the executive leadership is delusional, dishonest, or both. Typically, it’s the CEO. And there’s no way to fix that when you report to them.
Finally, the product and processes sucks. It’s always both. And if you give me 12 months and the authority i need, which absolutely will include firing people, then I can help you. Otherwise bye-bye. There’s always another fire I could be putting out.
tmclaugh@reddit
Take any job where transformation is a part of the role and you will completely understand.
This also isn’t a phenomenon unique to the C level. It happens at all levels.
Adorable-Emotion4320@reddit
Because you can easily fire 25% of any workforce and keep going for about 1.5 years and see the short term benefits...
BorfJr@reddit
See the “Three Envelope” joke for reference. ——
A fellow had just been hired as the new CEO of a large high tech corporation. The CEO who was stepping down met with him privately and presented him with three numbered envelopes. "Open these if you run up against a problem you don't think you can solve," he said.
Well, things went along pretty smoothly, but six months later, sales took a downturn and he was really catching a lot of heat. About at his wit's end, he remembered the envelopes. He went to his drawer and took out the first envelope. The message read, "Blame your predecessor."
The new CEO called a press conference and tactfully laid the blame at the feet of the previous CEO. Satisfied with his comments, the press -- and Wall Street - responded positively, sales began to pick up and the problem was soon behind him.
About a year later, the company was again experiencing a slight dip in sales, combined with serious product problems. Having learned from his previous experience, the CEO quickly opened the second envelope. The message read, "Reorganize." This he did, and the company quickly rebounded.
After several consecutive profitable quarters, the company once again fell on difficult times. The CEO went to his office, closed the door and opened the third envelope.
The message said, "Prepare three envelopes."
lost60kIn2021@reddit
Had experience with CTO. Burned 8mil, wasted time and opportunities. Was axed, this was unofficiall. Went to check where he landed (first time I was curiuos about C suite, because of how bad he was). Company that hired him next gloated and glazed him all over their socials.
Breadinator@reddit
It's called a bungie boss.
A great way to change tons of shit, blame the new guy, then carry on (but never revert things).
allak@reddit
It think it's Bungee boss.
US from an old Dilbert comic strip.
dnult@reddit
I'm willing to bet that the company culture is so fouled up they can't get the support they need and give up. There is a fine line between having the experience needed to transform a company and having enough energy to cope with resistance to change.
matthra@reddit
Most c suite employees are hired with pre negotiated bonus timing, usually culminating in an end of first year bonus. To get these bonuses they have to meet arbitrary goals, and when the only thing that matters is the goal the methods are less important. This inevitably leads to short term changes that help them meet their goals, with no thought for how they will fair in the long term because as soon as they get their bonus they are on the hunt for another job and set of bonuses with a different company.
It's very obviously a case of misaligned incentives, it leads to a rotating cast of players when the company would benefit from a steady leadership. It also leads to a focus on very short term goals when longer term goals would benefit the company more.
Groundbreaking-Camel@reddit
I mean you kind of answered your own question. “Stick around for 1-2 years and then leave. often before the results (good or bad) are even measurable”
It’s really easy to claim the first few low-hanging fruit wins and then bounce so you don’t have to own the process or the consequences of fixing the harder problems. In their mind, they set the organization on the right “super-simple” path of fixing the long-term problems and claim victory. Then if it works, they were brilliant. If it doesn’t work, it was an execution problem.
WriteCodeBroh@reddit
This is the C-level playbook. They introduce some big change to justify their massive salary and stock package, they take that change to fruition, they get a big bonus at the end when they sell it as a massive success, then they move on to another company before the board figures out how much their change sucks.
bluetista1988@reddit
First time?
It happens almost everywhere once a company passes a certain size. New leadership comes in to announce these big sweeping changes that are going to fix problems ABC. They build out a 3 year roadmap with quarterly milestones, sell like crazy within the company, and then leverage the first "win" they get to jump to another job a year later.
Those who remain at the company are left holding the bag when they realize that this "solution" only fixes problem A, leaves BC intact, and also creates problems DEFGΘΔ and ζ.
The new leadership comes in, sees the mess, and announce these big sweeping changes that are going to fix problems DEF. They build out a 3 year roadmap with quarterly milestones, sell like crazy within the company, and then leverage the first "win" they get to jump to another job a year later...
donjulioanejo@reddit
And that's the annoying thing about job culture. Even at VP or CxO level, sometimes the best strategy may be not to play.
IE company is well-organized, well-staffed, and everything runs like an oiled machine.
You still need a VP to do day-to-day management of their respective domain, but you may not need to make any changes.
xadhoompl@reddit
My F500 company hired CIO from the market and I for almost a whole year I think guy has been traveling a lot meeting with a lot of people and stating at every occasion that we are running fine and he don’t want to make any changes before he has better understating of whole firm. Kudos to him I guess.
belkh@reddit
plot twist: he's waiting it out till he lands another job
Clean_Plantain_7403@reddit
Every time I read a post like that i just feel like a complete idiot. I was always taught to do the right thing and actually make sensible decisions - at least as much as possible. And yet here we are in a time when people make decisions that will profit only them and screw over everything down the line.
meltbox@reddit
Absolutely but in my experience they more of create the plan which means management starts a new process meanwhile the core business chugs along EXACTLY THE SAME WAY.
Then they blame the rank and file for poor performance for a year or two before they fail out because they materially changed nothing except for reporting methodology in practice.
So they’re mostly just talk, rarely have the impact they claim they do/will.
Maleficent-Scene7771@reddit
ohh. that is true. they are indeed creating an impact. not just the desired one.
itwasinthetubes@reddit
this is the way (to promotion)
IProgramSoftware@reddit
Some of these people get massive sign on bonuses no strings attached
neuralSalmonNet@reddit
Seagull management, fly in shit on everything and leave.
elusiveoso@reddit
They might suck or they might be executives who specialize in one thing. I worked somewhere that brought in a new CEO who was good at selling off parts of companies so the investors could cash out. It took him about 2 years to sell off the entire company.
arcticprotea@reddit
C level work for the boards. They want some change done, find a C level who they think will deliver, fire the old one and install the new one, give it 2 years and then repeat.
bwainfweeze@reddit
I’m on a fulcrum here because I do firmly believe that different personalities benefit a company at different phases of growth. The one who can build a thing is not the one who can figure out how to stop building and optimize for margins, and payback to the investors.
And yet most of the time you’re lucky if the new guy is merely less bad, instead of better, and you spend all your capital on renegotiating the worst policies of his predecessors.
limecakes@reddit
I’ve seen it so many times. I know someone who just keeps doing it over and over… guy got poached from Google to JP Morgan to disrupt… all he did was run up the AWS billing and then left… and Ive seen him “disrupt” at three more companies since he left… somehow they keep failing upwards.
bwainfweeze@reddit
One of the harder lessons I’ve learned, almost as dearly as Second System Syndrome, is that a group of motivated people can make any process work for about 18 months before the wheels start to wobble and then fall off. They say developers learn bad habits during bubbles but I’m convinced it’s the managers who fare the worst. Because they deal even less with the consequences of their own choices than the devs do.
They slide in like No Face offering gold in exchange for consideration and when they go away it turns out to be an empire of dirt.
HansProleman@reddit
Poor incentive alignment.
TheBear8878@reddit
They often do feel that they have to make their mark and justify being brought on, so they do a big shake up.
Qinistral@reddit
It’s depressing how many comments have a tribal bias against execs, leaning into shallow stereotypes and smears. We can do better.
dcchambers@reddit
They're playing the game 100% for themselves. They don't actually care about the company. Results don't matter - because they can claim whatever they want. And if it's good they can use it to leverage more $$$ at the next gig, and if it's bad they just claim it wasn't their fault and move on to the next gig.
People are selfish.
Singularity-42@reddit
It's not even personal branding. The year is for the stock to vest. I have seen it multiple times at companies I've worked. VC and C suite levels.
Northbank75@reddit
This has happened at my corp …. And then the replacement(s) left as well …
Not a one for for the job they were trying to complete, the new guy is a pain in the ass but he gets it and it’s happening ….
ancientweasel@reddit
So they can distort reality on their resumes and run the next con based job search.
notger@reddit
Because there is a good career to build on "transformation".
I know one who hops along every two years. Very nice guy, which is his secret weapon. Do the things work? Of course not. Does he hop along and get raises each time? You bet!
schvarcz@reddit
As crazy as it sounds like. That is the market.
SkullLeader@reddit
>leave. often before the results (good or bad) are even measurable.
You've answered your own question. This way they get to a) come in and make a lot of decisions that are potentially good in the short term for saving the company money, and get to take credit for it, but are b) terrible in the long run because they tend to gut things like the company's institutional knowledge, its competitive advantage, etc. So they leave before the consequences of their decisions materialize. None of the inevitable resulting bad stuff happened on *their* watch so they escape the blame. This has been going on since the beginning of time - mark my words the world's oldest profession is not what you thought it was, its this.
Godfiend@reddit
Yup, leaving before the results of their actions can actually be felt is a key part of this cycle of shit. But I am not sure that matters because nearly all of them that I've met or worked with aren't really capable of learning from their mistakes, they just blame other people - especially the workers.
amejin@reddit
There are people who make a career out of monetizing weak or stagnant companies through divestiture or "cutting waste."
EnderMB@reddit
Alongside the other comments, sometimes it goes both ways.
Some execs will want some uncomfortable decisions to be made, but don't want to be the people to do it, so they'll hire someone that'll come in, fuck shit up, and leave once the dust settles.
dashingThroughSnow12@reddit
The reasons can vary. Some good, some bad.
Some C-levels are branch swinging. Someone below them is always gunning for their job and there isn’t much space to go up. Might as well change positions every few years.
Some C-levels are hired for a purpose and that purpose is not long term. My current CFO gets hired before a company IPOs, he cleans and tidies as much as the company as possible, identifies and prioritizes areas of risk for the IPO, learns a lot about the company and can make passionate speeches about the core business, and sticks around for a year or two to steer the ship as a public company.
In general, C-levels are also sought after. Some of y’all would leave your own grandmother’s company if it meant an additional 10k/yr in salary. Regardless the person’s original intents, I imagine a compensation/stock package and signing bonus for a C-level is awfully tempting.
nicolas_06@reddit
When it's well done, it is on purpose. Basically the company need heavy, difficult changes. They take somebody like that, and from the beginning the objective is for them to do the change and leave.
The guy does it, takes the hatred of everybody on purpose and the next guy replacing him can benefit of the change without the bad reputation.
But there many case where the guy was not supposed to leave early but the guy was fired for poor performance, got a better offer elsewhere or was finally prevented to do the change he was hired to do and decided to leave...
Usually the company neither the C-level want bad rep, so whatever happened, publicly all is nice.
DeterminedQuokka@reddit
From my experience when this happens it’s usually because the transformation failed and they were asked to leave. C-level positions are basically 100% about outcomes. So if you do a huge project and don’t get any people would like a different c level. If they are leaving pre results either they think it’s going to go poorly or it took too long I would assume.
amayle1@reddit
Ladder climbing. If a company is desperate for someone qualified to be C suite they just poach other C suite people. They are just hopping to get to better companies and comp.
demonicSeargent@reddit
Sign on bonuses.
They make more money that way and leaving before results are measurable
No_Kaleidoscope7022@reddit
We have one in our company who came from Mag 7. Ensued chaos, overnight our work has doubled with fear of getting laid off.
tallgeeseR@reddit
There can be various reasons.
In one of my past employers, a mid-aged tech (10k+ engineers) from the valley, new CEO was brought in at one point. Before joining us, that new CEO founded multiple profitable startups that got acquired by bigger players. He kicked off initiatives within the first year, to transform how the company operates, from "legacy tech firm" into "modern tech company". Those changes were widely perceived by engineers as necessary, long overdue changes. Needless to say overall productivity improved and morale was boosted, except certain groups - the new way we operate made it relatively harder to do coasting, empire building, etc.
However, even as CEO, there was still friction and silent push back mainly by some long timers in management/leadership level. After \~1.5 years he quitted. In his farewell speech he did mention, in order to transform the company into a highly competitive org, it requires a CEO who willing to spend next 1-2 years primarily doing management job, but his passion is not in management role. My team read his message as, the complete transformation requires substantial org structure change and massive blood change, and he's not into that.
ButterPotatoHead@reddit
Some executives are "fixers" they come into an org and solve some problem and leave.
Friend of mine did this, he was the CFO, CTO and CEO of different companies mostly banks. He developed a reputation for being able to fix problems and would get brought in to address some regulatory or personnel issue, make the changes, and once things settled down he left for his next one. It is somewhat true that he wasn't there to see the full aftermath but the board wanted to hire someone else for that.
He said it paid well, he felt he made an impact but it was stressful, as a new exec he said he felt freer to make changes that the incumbents couldn't or wouldn't make, he thought he was more objective and not tied to past decisions and assumptions or the status quo.
keelanstuart@reddit
Public companies sometimes just need to make a change to have their stock price go up. Growth not there? Fire an exec, shareholders happy.
It's dumb.
domo__knows@reddit
I see a lot of bad experiences in the thread which is expected. I'm curious to hear if anyone has some good examples of a CEO coming in, moving the org in another direction successfully, and leaving after 3 to 5 years.
Paul721@reddit
Absolutely. Join company, show great energy, discuss the huge potential and how excited you are about the future of the company, reorg a few times, collect your $5-10 million, quit, rinse and repeat at the next company. That’s all execs typically do.
SableSnail@reddit
The transformation was in their net worth and CV.
Roqjndndj3761@reddit
They might be in a contract that didn’t get extended. Also the higher up you are, the more likely you’re gonna get beheaded when a graph doesn’t appease the board.
felfott@reddit
Corporate scammers. Specifically ex Amazon are notorious and most of them are Indians. Now they have a new "transformation" and it's transforming a company to use AI.
thevoid__@reddit
I have seen a lot of talks on conferences of CTO's specially that sounded really nice, they really looked someone that i would be looking forward to work with and learn from them.
Eventually some of these names happened something similar to what you said and i got to known people that worked during that period and they usually suck but they are very good at talking, pretending to know things and pretend to know how to deal with issues and orgs.
madmap@reddit
yeah: thats how this works... they come in, fuck up the company and before anyone can say its their fault they leave. On to the next company.
UKS1977@reddit
This is my world! Its because the company claims it wants to transform - But it actually doesnt - As it soon discovers when the new C - level exec tries to change things. He runs into a quagmire of status quo, can't manage it and is either fired or quits.
WhiskyStandard@reddit
Mid-size companies are stepping stones in their eyes.
Curiousman1911@reddit
One year do nothing, he just simply fail on his probation KPi, and the BOD give him more time to go out. You can not do any transformation program within 1 year, i am sure
EntropyRX@reddit
Very very common. Too common. It’s basically a blueprint nowadays. Leadership comes in, shuffles stuff around, makes up a few new OKR with new acronyms, collect their fat salaries and bonuses for a couple of years while employees are stressed out with made up deadlines and deliverables… and after a couple of years everything is forgotten and it’s a rinse and repeat.
The uncomfortable truth is that company success is mostly due to macro economic environment variables and timing that becomes apparent only in retrospect … it’s almost never about a re org or a new CTO, ceo or whatever csuite takes over. I’ve never seen one of these big “re org” restructuring new OKRs yielding any significant improvements.
Tiktoktoker@reddit
To boost their ego
seventyeightist@reddit
You know the concept as a developer of "resume driven development"? (Even if you've never heard the term, you can infer what it means). These people are doing resume driven restructuring. (and/or they are incompetent and move on before it catches up with them) - so yes, you are basically correct. They treat the companies they go to as "source material" for their resume.
captcanuk@reddit
I’ll give a fresh take: some are brought in because current leadership knows they need a “transformation” but don’t know how. So a new leader is brought in with a great pedigree and gets to work. They make a plan and start a year long transition and in between they realize also that it isn’t their team alone that’s the problem but the rest of the company or the CEO. Perhaps the Board or the CEO feel it’s taking too long or there are hiccups along the way or the appetite for the transition disappears midway. Other times the brought in leader had a plan that worked at another company and is trying to replay that playbook instead of creating a fitting plan for this one. Either way the transformation is in progress and when the political capital runs dry the act and not the measure is the only thing they can advertise on their LinkedIn.
mpanase@reddit
The bigger the project you lead, the more clout you get.
If the project is doomed, just use those credentials to get out of there before it fails.
grumpy_autist@reddit
I witnessed it myself. "Transformation" is mostly firing people and heavy cost cutting to you need to cash your fat bonus and yeet the fuck from the company in the short time frame between perfect financial statement report and total fallout of a dysfunctional company.
FineInstruction1397@reddit
well they have bonuses for results and also get packages for everything including leaving (no matter the mess they make)
so if they plan long term and build some strong future holding strategy they would need to wait like 20 years to see the results and get their bonuses.
usually transformation or any other bs word they use for it means cost cutting - and that is easy to be done if you do not care about the future of the company - they implement that and wait for first results to come it, collect the bonuses for the results and then leaving, the packages for leaving.
dystopiadattopia@reddit
Oh, does that happen at your company too? Total bullshit.
I worked at a large tech company (not FAANG but known worldwide) for nearly 6 years, and in that time we had 5 different CEOs.
However, we were a Subsidiary of Parent Company, although Subsidiary was widely known as well, and it seemed like the CEOs used us as training wheels. They'd either move on to Parent Company or some other company, and then we'd have another all hands with another new CEO who made new Big Promises for Transformation and Increased Revenues, who would then quit a year later, when the whole process would start all over again.
So yeah, I think it must be fairly normal, although it really sucks.
fadedblackleggings@reddit
Corporate scammers.
Single_Positive533@reddit
I have seen it happen multiple times. Everytime the temporary CEO cleans the house and takes some controversial but needed measures.
When it happened, the previous CEO made some mistakes and the board needed to organize the things while they searched for a better person.
metaphorm@reddit
successful executives don't "transform" anything, the "make a fuck ton of money". if they're leaving without having made any money, they failed.