Finally convinced a friend to willingly use linux
Posted by littleblack11111@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 142 comments
Posted by littleblack11111@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 142 comments
aliendude5300@reddit
Why start with Arch though? It's harder for beginners to grasp.
xX69_MuskyMouse_69Xx@reddit
lol no tf its not arch was my first linux distro and im running it to this day
TheVeryBestVery@reddit
Maybe because you actually like linux,and are willing to learn. Things most users dont have
xX69_MuskyMouse_69Xx@reddit
sad. people are so used to hating windows they cant appreciate whats good
coladoir@reddit
People dont have time to put towards learning an entirely new system and ecosystem while also having to learn the literal fundamental basics of computer science (input/output, filesystems) to set up their system, and then learn what they even need to do what they want to do.
I love arch, its great, its my favorite actually, but normal people just want something they can use, out of the box, with no need to learn that much. The average person can tolerate some learning, but going from a lifetime of windows to Arch is a large and steep learning curve–a very accessible one, but a very steep one nonetheless. It just takes a lot of time, and today time is extremely valuable and scarce for many. Spending it on learning to install and use Arch Linux is just not valuable enough, unfortunately.
Again, I'm not dissing Arch at all, and I'm not saying that installing arch is a CS course, or even a CS101 course, but rather that it requires fundamental understanding of computer systems which many people lack.
The reality is most people dont even know where their files go when they save them from Chrome, and they dont even know what an SSD/HDD do. Many think their files are just stored "on the internet" because of the cloud–even if they dont have or use cloud services. Many dont even know what a file manager is, let alone a terminal, and would be completely drowning (figuratively) if they were forced to use a completely text-based interface, especially one where theyre expected to create partition schemes and input commands without any knowledge of command structure or linguistic tendencies.
Its easy for you or I, but its just not easy for the general public, and so if we want to get true widespread adoption, Linux has to be as easy to use as possible. Again, people are willing to learn, but they aren't willing to start from zero most of the time. There are those like OPs friend, or you, or I, who will put in the time, who do find it cool and interesting, but the thing that pushed us is usually a base interest in either computers, operating systems, or a very very strong hatred of Windows–most people dont possess either, even if they use computers daily or dislike Windows.
So people will continue installing Mint or Ubuntu as their first distro. And thats OK, and it should be encouraged.
xX69_MuskyMouse_69Xx@reddit
i dont have time to read all that
coladoir@reddit
but you have time to read wiki docs.
i hate redditors. so lazy and willfully ignorant just constantly.
xX69_MuskyMouse_69Xx@reddit
nah i just lied i dont want to read that too long.
coladoir@reddit
lmao what a wild implication drawn from recognizing that you can muster the strength to read articles 3-4-8 times the length of my comment.
xX69_MuskyMouse_69Xx@reddit
youre implying im a hypocrite for not wanting to read some random redditors essay, where is your self awareness?
coladoir@reddit
its more I'm mocking your implication that my comment is really all that long or laborious to read when you can read dense wiki pages, or even just three of my comments in a row which added together make about the same length as my original, maybe just a bit less.
I dont think my "essay" (5 paragraphs was an "essay" in second or third grade [8-9yr old], if you really think Thats still an "essay" in your adult life, you dont read at all, when you really should) is important at all, really, but I also dont think its all that much to read and dont think that it is much trouble to read comments that have the same amount of paragraphs as I have fingers on one hand.
The fact that you think I'm assigning some high level of 'importance' to my comments says more about you than I, because I recognize my comments are not necessary at all. Regardless of this, I can recognize your inability to read 5 paragraphs (or even 3, since youll Definitely say 'not gonna read all that' to this too) as legitimately infantile and pathetic. And I can, again, do this without elevating the value of my comment. But presumedly to you, if I write a lot, I must care a lot, but the reality is that I just type fast, and hate those who are outright antagonistic towards the simple act of reading, especially when it takes the same time to read a comment like mine as it takes to read a Dr Seuss book.
xX69_MuskyMouse_69Xx@reddit
Lol not reading all that
coladoir@reddit
You are so laughably predictable and pathetic.
xX69_MuskyMouse_69Xx@reddit
do you want a gold star? maybe some karma? congrats on figuring out that if im not going to read your essay that im not going to read your second essay, real ground breaking stuff. you should get like a doctorate in statistics or something
coladoir@reddit
no, I want you to recognize youre a lazy ldiot who cares more about getting a "gotcha" than cares about reading a few measly paragraphs. That you can say "I dont have time for that", and then spend the same amount of time responding to me to get that gotcha moment.
You are pathetic.
hard0w@reddit
No it's not. Arch has one of the biggest communities, documentation, AUR and uses systemd. I don't get why people brag about arch being "hard".
aliendude5300@reddit
I've used Arch before. The base knowledge of Linux needed to use and maintain it effectively is considerably higher than something like Linux Mint, Fedora, or Ubuntu
xX69_MuskyMouse_69Xx@reddit
so then explain how i followed a little tutorial and installed it and maintained it to this day without any prior experience?
aliendude5300@reddit
I didn't say it isn't possible to use it, I said it's objectively harder.
> i followed a little tutorial
That tutorial would not likely not even be necessary if for instance you started with Ubuntu.
xX69_MuskyMouse_69Xx@reddit
if youre just saying its harder fine i wont disagree it was "harder" than a gui installer and just works but you dont need "base knowledge"
The_angle_of_Dangle@reddit
I'm very interested in this "little tutorial". Without base knowledge, I am wondering how you were able to know how the file system works, the difference between ext4 and btrfs, and navigation of terminal. With zero experience.
Could you please point us to this "little" tutorial.
xX69_MuskyMouse_69Xx@reddit
probably this one i know it was Distrotube
abotelho-cbn@reddit
Because that's how generalization works?
xX69_MuskyMouse_69Xx@reddit
sure if he said "its harder" but he said
its just simply not true. 0 base knowledge is needed
abotelho-cbn@reddit
It absolutely is. You can install Ubuntu entirely graphically.
Even with archinstall, Arch requires using a terminal. Some people can't even do that. There's more to learn to start using Arch right from the get-go.
xX69_MuskyMouse_69Xx@reddit
i maybe its semantics but i dont consider following a tutorial to be "base knowledge"
abotelho-cbn@reddit
You need to learn to gain base knowledge. That's how a person obtains knowledge.
wpm@reddit
How do you learn if you let GUIs abstract all of the learning away for you?
xX69_MuskyMouse_69Xx@reddit
yes and the install process is the learning. you obtain the base knowledge by doing it
Krired_@reddit
Easy, you're lying! /s
As long as the user is aware, informed and willing, they can hop into Arch as their first distro without problems. Thing is, a lot of people are not (fair tbh), and just assume Linux as a whole is like this.
The Arch wiki is rock solid, I use Mint and still use it a bunch to learn new stuff.
xX69_MuskyMouse_69Xx@reddit
yeah true enough. what i despise is the idea of a "beginners distro" if you want to do a "idc just give me something i can use a browser with" distro fine but acting like a beginner shouldnt hop onto arch is silly why would you want to distro hop if youre just going to end up on arch anyways and depending how you look at it arch is the "beginners" distro because you have to learn how your system works since it doesnt hold your hand as much
Krired_@reddit
Well, there's a bit of overlap I think.
For me, a beginner's distro is for people migrating from Windows that expect their systems to work right out of the box and need little to no tweaking to work, keeping Terminal use as low as possible. Like Mint.
But it can also mean a distro for the more tech savy, to help them understand how Linux works, forcing you how to use the Terminal and manually tweak your system as much as possible. Like Arch with the wiki in hand.
xX69_MuskyMouse_69Xx@reddit
yeah but thats the thing is i see the first one as "just give me something that works"
my issue is people acting like the first one is what people new to linux should automatically start using and the person is loopy for choosing arch
hard0w@reddit
That's why you have the package manager, and for the complete noobs, there is the AUR and flatpak
wpm@reddit
Shit breaks if you update your shit so just never update 😎
Farados55@reddit
Which beginner wants to be crawling through documentation?
hard0w@reddit
Every beginner? Have you ever learned a new framework or something?
Farados55@reddit
Having to set up and read pages of documentation for your operating system is not the same as learning a software framework. Not all linux users are programmers, this is a bad comparison. Cant tell if troll.
ILoveHeavyHangers@reddit
Don't you remember how you set grandma up with a Mac Mini to check her email and she was so excited to read the Documentation?
/S
hard0w@reddit
I can only give you my subjective take on this.
B_bI_L@reddit
not everyone is documentation processing machine, some people learn from tutorials or smth
hard0w@reddit
Those people are also the ones installing AUR packages, flatpaks and wget scripts with sudo.
esmifra@reddit
Worse than that, documentation often refers to concepts and terms that you need to be familiar with to understand.
A beginner reading a page that explains how to do X or Y has to constantly Google terms to understand it.
I'm convinced that half the people that say that Arch is easy aren't really being honest and are just humble bragging.
ILoveHeavyHangers@reddit
Those dudes also want you to know that they only use vi
gaijoan@reddit
I did...
rgsidler@reddit
As if beeing based on systemdd was an advantage 🤣
f54k4fg88g4j8h14g8j4@reddit
You systemd naysayers are still trolling the depths, huh? That's sad.
hard0w@reddit
For beginners it is. Runit is goat tho
StarChildEve@reddit
I have Ubuntu-based systems break more than Arch; the flexibility of Arch makes things work together a bit easier than Ubuntu from what I’ve experienced. Idk about Fedora as much as I only use it for RPM/STIG build systems, but I like pacman more than dnf
Gott_Riff@reddit
Depends on what you mean by beginner.
If you mean someone who wants to become a power user, then it's a great start since you learn a lot really fast. For me, it would be an equivalent to teaching someone how to swim by throwing them out of the boat on deep water.
If you mean someone who just wants to use the OS and not worry about what's under the hood, then I wouldn't say it's a good choice.
SappedSentry@reddit
i started with arch sheerly because of how good the documentation is. and i wanted to have a reason to look under the hood of linux, which the arch install process is great for
Rocktopod@reddit
It used to be hard to install since there was no GUI installer, but I've heard that's no longer the case.
MaesLotws@reddit
Arch requires a decently high level of baseline Linux knowledge to use, not to mention if you're converting someone from Windows over to Linux reading a shit ton of documentation cause everything is broken all the time isn't an easy sell. Everytime one of my friends, computer savvy or not, starts to use Linux I always set them up on Mint cause it just works
ForgetTheRuralJuror@reddit
Which makes it hard for beginners
littleblack11111@reddit (OP)
updated
geek-tn@reddit
"willingly"
lhoward93@reddit
I wonder if James is the user or the friend... 🤔🤔
Soft-Butterfly7532@reddit
"Just put your fingers on the keyboard while I take this photo and nobody will get hurt"
littleblack11111@reddit (OP)
Haha, I was actually teaching him and letting him read the wiki himself while taking this
-BigBadBeef-@reddit
You taught him to find some answers himself? That is, in and of itself, pretty impressive.
Zer0CoolXI@reddit
This defies all known laws of science…
headedbranch225@reddit
Like the laws of aviation?
Ugly_Slut-Wannabe@reddit
The ones that state that there is no way a bee should be able to fly?
UntoldParaphernalia@reddit
But they don't fly, it's all just cables and sky hooks
littleblack11111@reddit (OP)
I know right, that took most of the time, just convincing (instead of expecting it to work out of the box) and teaching him how to properly use the wiki and other resource such as aur
WanderingInAVan@reddit
Hit ESC twice if your being held against your will.
Lord_Tiger_Fu@reddit
🤣🤣🤣
aconfused_lemon@reddit
Arch might not be the best for a beginner
homeless_wonders@reddit
I hate this mentality so much. Arch is an easy distro. The only hard thing about arch is choosing how to customize it. Nothing about the experience is hard, but even if you think it's hard, it's got one of the best wikis to teach people. What better way to learn than drinking from the hose that has a literal instruction manual. Man pages exist for most commands, and wikis exist for more DEs. In what way is any of this hard?
The answer is it isn't, and I will always believe that.
Additionally, I high key think the more 'user friendly ' distros hamper growth more than help it.
The question you should be asking new people is: Do you want to use Linux, or do you want to learn Linux because these are fundamentally different things, and I wouldn't tell someone who wants to learn Linux, to use a more user friendly distro.
Mint is not gonna teach anyone how to use Linux, just what it can be capable of. Obviously there's exceptions, and that's a broad statement.
Arch isn't for the average user, but if you want to learn Linux, it's a really good to start here.
Nytra@reddit
I think Arch is really easy to break if you are not careful
gaijoan@reddit
Depends more on the person than current experience.
Antique-Fee-6877@reddit
I see nothing compiling. It's being used wrong.
TheVeryBestVery@reddit
This arch not gentoo
Antique-Fee-6877@reddit
My point still stands. I still compile shit, even on arch.
Pyrozoidberg@reddit
dude I've been trying soo hard to get my friends onto linux. it's such an uphill battle cus most people don't want to learn something new if they don't see a use-case for it that is essential to them. This includes me cus I changed to linux because it was easier to use linux for my thesis project compared to windows so I shifted and ended up loving linux to the point of just daily driving it.
hasn't stopped me from mentioning how superior linux is every chance I get.
littleblack11111@reddit (OP)
The classic xD
Jokes aside, it really depends on them, if they’re up to try, then let them. Otherwise don’t annoy them to much bout it though
Some people just like plain, stable, already familiar system and never want to try new things or have the time to which is fine!
Pyrozoidberg@reddit
absolutely it's up to them but there is no "annoying them too much." if they're my friend and want to hang out with me then linux superiority is just a part of my personality currently lol. it's mostly just fueled by how much I hate windows (cus I have a dual boot setup and I occasionally boot up windows to play games cus linux just isn't there yet for a lot of games).
littleblack11111@reddit (OP)
Hmm some people are just very sensitive when you’re too pushy..
Yes, hate kernel level anti cheat
SEI_JAKU@reddit
I know people love to bitch about Arch, but it seems like your friend is the kind of person who understands what they're getting into. Congrats, both to you and your friend.
littleblack11111@reddit (OP)
Thanks!
Jealous_Ad_1859@reddit
Arch as first distro?
littleblack11111@reddit (OP)
updated
SEI_JAKU@reddit
Right, thanks for the followup. As always, the hardest part of Linux is just getting it installed.
samas69420@reddit
its not that bad actually, today's installers like archinstall make the installing process so much easier than it used to be and ofc if you want to learn more you can still do it manually, to install and configure a de/wm if you're a noobie you can just follow a 5 mins tutorial and the wiki is great, imho it is the perfect balance between usability, customization and learning
StarChildEve@reddit
I recognize I’m in the minority here and old-school, but I genuinely believe the manual Arch install is the best way to do it whether someone is learning or if they’re experienced. archinstall obfuscates things that are valuable to learn for newbies, and for people with experience it assumes things about the exact config you’ll want. The manual process seems very simple to me at this point, and when I was just starting out it was confusing but not so much that I couldn’t clobber a system together, and I learned a lot by doing it that way.
Like I said, I recognize most people don’t feel this way and that I’m very rigid and maybe a bit elitist with my stance on it, and at the end of the day I just want people to be happy with their Linux installs and to get good use out of their systems.
crystalchuck@reddit
Tbh I never thought installing Arch was difficult, more like tedious. Now, Gentoo however... (though it's been easily a decade since I last tried that)
bakgwailo@reddit
Have to agree, manually installing Arch essentially boiled down to being able to read the wiki and follow each step. Also agree on Gentoo - although maybe closer to 2 decades for me.
EarlMarshal@reddit
Most people will use any distro. I'm coming from Ubuntu, Debian and other Debian Derivates. I'm completely fine with arch install. You can even just create your own config and just install some packages... Voila. Afterwards I just run a script that sets up my dotfiles and run everything else.
Yeah, sure maybe installing by hand is better, but I'm an engineer and this really is the sweet spot. I can install systems with all packages in under half an hour and that includes compiling quite a big part of the software on the system. It's great.
ArrayBolt3@reddit
I'm kind of on the fence about it. I know Arch well enough to do a working install from memory, and I can do an Arch-like install of Debian or Ubuntu using mmdebstrap, apt, and vim, and... well, I mean if I have a very specific use case for the installation I'm spinning up, it's great, but if I'm setting up a machine for general use, I prefer a graphical installer. Less brainpower required, less chance of forgetting things like installing the bootloader (oh how many times I have done that), and if it doesn't get my setup exactly right I can tweak it after the fact easily enough.
FrozenLogger@reddit
Yeah installation is fine. But then keeping track of the pacman new files and making choices about configs while not hard does seem like additional burden that a new person ends up thinking "Linux is about constant tinkering and management" when really it is mostly Arch.
I like Arch, I use Arch, and maybe it is a good idea to know your system, but I have seen so many posts about having to "manage" linux where it was simply the distro choice that caused it.
Turtvaiz@reddit
Still don't see any points in it. I have enough trouble with manual interventions and keyring problems that I'd not recommend it unless you know how to fix problems
Skyshaper@reddit
We've come full circle! In 2012 Arch removed the ncurses installer in favor of a manual process, and now we're back to using installers.
Cr4ckTh3Skye@reddit
ironically enough when i switched from w11 to arch the hardest part was installing windows on a vm
Samiassa@reddit
Archinstall kept breaking for me, but the actual process of using it before it would break was extremely easy and user friendly, even as someone who didn’t know anything about the terminal. I just ended up going with endeavouros since I didn’t know enough about Linux to do it manually. I just installed Ubuntu server on my server and it went pretty ok, so I’m looking forward to trying to install arch Linux by myself without Archinstall.
Alkeryn@reddit
Nothing wrong with that, that's what I did.
gallonofblood@reddit
Arch was my first distro (technically second, used Xubuntu first) and it’s really not as complicated and hard as people make it out to be. Has never broken for me and runs perfectly.
AutoModerator@reddit
This submission has been removed due to receiving too many reports from users. The mods have been notified and will re-approve if this removal was inappropriate, or leave it removed.
This is most likely because:
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
SweetBabyAlaska@reddit
throw this in their /etc/pacman.conf for them
littleblack11111@reddit (OP)
I have asked them to as well as parallel download! They said they’ll try figure it out themselves on the wiki after I leave
indvs3@reddit
Another example of arch sadism lol
100GHz@reddit
Maybe get him a decent keyboard too!
Known-Watercress7296@reddit
Good idea.
Will be awesome once he realized what Ubuntu can do if the poor guy's into is fucking around with arch btw as an intro.
Have you got some poor fucker using a tty? I know it's a meme from the Arch docs, but not something you do to friends.
littleblack11111@reddit (OP)
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/s/KlIQefUpbm
lantz83@reddit
That useless keyboard gives me no choice but to down vote this thread. Yuck.
MrTroll420@reddit
"Convince" and "willingly" in the same sentence lol.
INITMalcanis@reddit
"He willingly chose to use linux and keep his hand bones unsmashed. Freedom of choice!""
raven2cz@reddit
When I was a kid and just starting out with computers, we had nothing but the command line. There weren’t even windows yet, and we used MS-DOS. Not long after, Midnight Commander and Norton Commander came along, representing both worlds, so to speak.
I’m really glad that people are returning to the command line and the prompt. But now it’s not just about commands. There’s also powerful artificial intelligence on the other side of the keyboard.
This new era will greatly change how we interact with computers and how we work with them. And the prompt will stay with us.
denzuk75@reddit
Big !!! 💪💯
mawitime@reddit
These posts really give such a bad rap for desktop Linux. You don't need to touch a single line of code or run a single terminal command to have a perfect experience on modern Linux.
The Arch degenerates are ruining it for everyone
littleblack11111@reddit (OP)
You’re absolutely right. Usually, when normal people install Linux, they wouldn’t choose such a hard distro. I have told him the pros and cons of major distros, and he’s chosen this. For the terminal part, he’s already used to non-arch specific commands(coreutils and posix) since he is already using the terminal on mac and(a little) windows for quite a bit(he programs c++ and some c)
jermygod@reddit
its literally just a regular distro. not a "hard" one.
for 3 years of using arch the most terminal that i used was typing my password when updating
...oh and that one manual intervention that was needed for all users not so long ago.
littleblack11111@reddit (OP)
Yep, the hard part is only installation
jermygod@reddit
i use endeavourOS so... :)
StarChildEve@reddit
The linux-firmware meta package transition really brought us all together huh?
sumkk2023@reddit
With people having such setups I am sure he will not last long.
littleblack11111@reddit (OP)
E: yes arch as first distro, he tried it a few times already but never kept it as default and just used my dots. This time I spent a whole day configuring hyprland status bar, the eco system etc with him, he got the gist of it and liked it so..
StarChildEve@reddit
My girlfriend went straight to Arch Linux from Windows thanks to the forced obsolescence of Windows 10 and she’s had a great time with it so far; she also seems to enjoy actually learning how the different parts of the system work, which is helpful
xX69_MuskyMouse_69Xx@reddit
very cool, even as someone who went straight to arch even i didnt bother with window managers and went straight to plasma. dont regret switching to hyprland one bit
Jayden_Ha@reddit
I can’t use arch cuz who the fuck thinks pacman -S is a good idea
littleblack11111@reddit (OP)
Not the easiest to understand, but we all got aliases for pacman -S right
TWB0109@reddit
Why are they installing spotify from the TTY? Priorities lol
citrus-hop@reddit
Thank God you did not threaten him.
SID-CHIP@reddit
Ahh the old days of BBS .
Wait!
scizorr_ace@reddit
I convinced my Btech cybersecurity sister into installing arch inside a vm
TremorCrush@reddit
are those translucent keycaps? Very cool.
jbourne71@reddit
That’s clearly a stock image you found online.
Everyone knows Arch users don’t actually know anyone irl.
expiredpzzarolls@reddit
Gun is held behind the camera
Granat1@reddit
Enjoy until he's still a friend :)
StatusHeart4195@reddit
Why? Are there prisons, where they force people to use Linux? 😅😉
B_bI_L@reddit
at my basement
PrepStorm@reddit
I can see that he is in pain without seeing him
SamiSalama_@reddit
He should start with an easier distro.
aftasardemmuito@reddit
cutesy plimp hands.... getting dirty with CLI
OverappreciatedSalad@reddit
Besides having them start with Arch of all things, I don't like posts where people say they had to "convince" their family/friends to use Linux. Makes it sound like you kept nagging them until they finally did it just to stop hearing about it. Had a couple friends who did this to me, and it made the whole experience miserable.
burnitdwn@reddit
My wife and my uncle started with Mint, but, uncle is in his 60s and is afeard of the command line, and wife just was curious about Linux to bring an old laptop back to life.
xX69_MuskyMouse_69Xx@reddit
arch wit da yay? congrats on the conversion
littleblack11111@reddit (OP)
Really? I thought yay package fuzzy searches it?
xX69_MuskyMouse_69Xx@reddit
oh yeah it searches it but thats fine you might find a bin or a git so its easier
Dalkskkskk@reddit
You mean at gunpoint
Nytra@reddit
You threw them into the flames straight away
Farados55@reddit
Is that a razr soundbar?
prmbasheer@reddit
I never understood this convincing bs. Downvote me, alright.